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[adrenaline_wave]

This is not for the weak of heart.

Back Ground Story :

I bought a dead (3 rrod 0102 error code) for 50 Bucks with HD cables , wireless controller etc. I had done some reading on here to see what was up with "fixing them" and thought I would give it a try since it was only 50$ and could sell it for more if I didn't get anywhere.

I did the x-clamp replacement where you get m5 bolts to replace the x clamp. 2 washers between MOBO and case and 2 washers between mobo and GPU heat sync. (1 between mobo and cpu). This worked perfectly. No problems for atleast 60-80 hours of gaming (GOW, HALO, ETC). It lasted for 3 months. I then began getting get lines on the screen through the image. Rebooted and got  e74 error codes for a bad cable. Did lots of searching and found out about re-balling.. I loosened the heat sync and re-seated it.. This worked for a week and the e 74 code would come back almost daily. i was stuck loosening then tightening to the heat sync at least once a day.. then that stopped working.. Then I tried over heating the gpu (removed fan shroud for the gpu ) and let it bake.. This would get it working again but then it would be dead by the next day.  

Frustrated with the whole thing I took out the MOBO and  just put the bolts through the mobo and into the heat sync.. I tried using 3 washers between the MOBO and heatsync while using shims to bridge the gap between heat sync and GPU.. This did nothing.. I couldn't get it to come on at all.

Fixed :  This is where the flaming will begin I'm sure. but I'm offering this as a chance to get your completely dead 360 back up and running. I take NO responsibility if you catch your house on fire

I've read through all the threads surrounding re-balling/ re-flowing the chips to the motherboards. I don't have the patience nor the steady hand to attempt something like this nor do I have the equipment. I understand what is going on and why it needs to be done..  

I looked up lead free solder on the web and found it's melting point ( i picked one out of a list of found ) and saw the melting point is about 423 F.    

First run. I removed the MOBO from the case and disconnected everything I could. What I had left was the MOBO with the heat syncs attached (bolts only going through the mobo (only) and then using 3 washers as  spacing  and a shim cut from a spare CPU heat sync. I tightened it hand tight (really tight) * note I had done this weeks before trying to get the 360 to boot without e74 or rrod (bolts too loose rrod. bolts 1/16 of  turn tighter and e74)

 I Pre-heated my oven to 350. I then put the mobo on a cookie sheet and placed it in the oven for 10 minutes. After 10 minutes I raised the heat to 375 and kept baking it for another 10 minutes.  After that (total time 20 minutes) I removed it from the oven and let it cool for 30 minutes. Placed it back in the case, and turned it on. It booted right away and i played some games.. it froze up once and rebooted.  All seemed good. * note 8 bolts on the underside of the MOBO kept the board off the cookie sheet. IE the bolts provided a 3 mm gap between cookie sheet and mobo

next day it didn't turn on.   Decided to turn up the heat.

Pre-heated the oven to 400 f. Placed MOBO on the cookie sheet and baked it for 10 minutes.  Then turned it up to 450 (beyond melting point of lead - free solder) and baked for 10 more minutes...  The Capicators began to leak at this point.. Not a good thing but I didn't care since the thing was completely dead and I had tried everything I could think of ( I'm a network admin by trade).   Seeing the caps begin to sizzle (yes sizzle) i took it out and let it cool ontop of the hot oven ( to cool it a bit slower then placing it on the counter) I could now see what looked to be flux covering some solder points on the board ( brownish liquid on top of the solder) I thought for sure the board was done and I over did it. But Most of solder that I took at look at before placing it in the over appeared more metallic/shinny.

results : Been playing it for over two weeks without any issues. intially there was some freezing but I think ive traced it to scratches on the dvd)  I've been playing for about 4 hours a night.


Things that  may skew the results of what I've done.
 
Since putting it in the oven i've lowered the res from 1080p to 720p. It appears to run cooler but I've been told it shouldn't make a difference as the scaler chip handles what resolution is output so the load on the GPU should be the same either way.

Before playing any games I let the 360 idle on the dashboard for about 20 minutes to hopefully let it warm up a bit before going full bore. I also let it idle before  i turn it off for about 20 minutes.

My theory as to why this works? I brought up the temperature of the board and gpu close or beyond  the melting point  of the solder on the gpu and the pressure from the x-clamp mod has pushed the GPU back down against the MOBO and perhaps re-flowed the chip ( i know this sounds dumb but I don't know why else this is working as I didn't do anything else other then bake it)

I also did the fan shroud mod (split the fans) and adding cardboard above the gpu heatsync and sealed it to the fan shroud. I did the same to the cpu. I did this right after doing the x-clamp removal in august

ANyhow that is what I did.. Maybe this will help someone else. It makes sense to me why this works but, I don't know if I'm going to have another issue in a months time or what.  But it DID take my completely dead 360 from death to playing games again.. I went back to 1080p last night so i will see how that goes.

Anyhow I wouldn't suggest anyone do this unless the board is toast anyhow. The caps sizzling is not a good thing but I have seen servers run for years will lots of caps bulging and leaking all over the place ..


Hope this helps.. FLAME AWAY! This works for me.. i will let you know how it is in another 2 weeks.

[adrenaline_wave]

A further note. I was going to try the heat gun trick to see if that would help at all before I was going to through it out.  I figured Baking it would be better from what I read about re-flowing BGA chips (board had to be almost as hot as the chip you are trying to re-flow)  I also saw how a heat gun could kill the mother board. I figured equal heat across the whole MOBO would be better then isolated heat.

if anyone else tries this please post your results below....

[Smoogie]

my 360 is currently showing the e74....

i've barely messed with heat, but it seems to me it worked for you...



i'm not sure i should take the step as drastic as you did, but i think it might be worth a try...not just yet though

let me know how long it holds up.  

i wish somone else smarter than us would find a plausible fix for the e74. lots of people seem to be having this same problem but no one seems to find an easy fix..like x clamps removal...

if i overheat my 360 and it turns on, can i be certain that ive narrowed it down to the gpu unit and not the scalar  (hana/ana) chip?

[adrenaline_wave]

Did you do the x-clamp removal ?

I did this to get rid of the RROD..  Then got the e74 error later on. Playing with the tension on the heat sync made the error go away.  But it began coming back again and again.   Then it got to the point that the thing wouldn't boot.. Either e74 , or the RROD.

I Figured it had to be the GPU, not the scaler chip as I had modded the clamps... Sure enough it was the gpu.

If you didn't do the x-clamp fix try that.. Unless you still have a warranty.  My bet is the e74 has nothing to do with the scaler chip and more about the the GPU contact issue with the motherboard.

I have another 360 (rrod , has not been touched ) and Mine wouldn't boot no matter what I did.

Anyhow it makes sense.. Just talked to my buddy (computer engineer) and after he laughed his ass off, he said it make complete sense why it's working now..

Just hopefully it's more of a permanent fix. 2 weeks is far better then screwing with it a few times a night.

[VanydotK]

[SlickWilly440]

LOL, dude what you did was extreme!

First off where did you get a 360 withe extras for 50 dollars?  Ebay?

Second off could you please post pictures of the mobo after you baked it in the oven?

[Bandit5317]

I might just try this. I have 2 terminally dead 360s, which I have tried everything on; x-clamp replacement, shim, 12-cent fix, and when I finally got really frustrated, overheat. For those of you that want to flame this, you obviously haven't had an unfixable 3RROD 360 yet. If you were thinking that you should send it in for a professional reflow or reball, you should know that a reflow will cost you around $70 plus shipping, and a reball will cost you $100 or more plus shipping.

[adrenaline_wave]

QUOTE(SlickWilly440 @ Nov 13 2007, 06:58 PM)

LOL, dude what you did was extreme!

First off where did you get a 360 withe extras for 50 dollars?  Ebay?

Second off could you please post pictures of the mobo after you baked it in the oven?

 I got the 360 from running an ad in local online classified. The dude sent it Back to MS but they wouldn't touch it since the firmware had been modded.

I didn't take any pictures  because I didn't think it would work.  But it has. THe MOBO looks the same.. it didn't warp or anything as people have stated with the heat gun trick.

If I feel like taking it all apart again this weekend I will post some pictures but there isn't anything to see It's nice to finally have it all together in the case after being apart for over a month.

QUOTE(Bandit5317 @ Nov 13 2007, 07:26 PM)

I might just try this. I have 2 terminally dead 360s, which I have tried everything on; x-clamp replacement, shim, 12-cent fix, and when I finally got really frustrated, overheat. For those of you that want to flame this, you obviously haven't had an unfixable 3RROD 360 yet. If you were thinking that you should send it in for a professional reflow or reball, you should know that a reflow will cost you around $70 plus shipping, and a reball will cost you $100 or more plus shipping.

Yah I was very sad when I couldn't get it to start at all.. before I could over heat the chip and then it would boot and we could play for a few hours, only to have to do it again the next day.. I was very very sad when it stopped working all together.

I dunno if I would say what I did was extreme I thought it out. Read a tonne of stuff on theories for what was happening to cause the RROD and then came up with a solution that I thought might work but because of the chance of killing it completely i left it as a last resort

I was thinking of sending it off to get reflowed / reballed but A) there is no on locally, and for 100$ i would rather put that towards a new system and do all the cooling mods right from the begining..

Anyhow. try it out and let me know how it works out.. Try 375 for 10 minutes and then 400 for 10 minutes.  and then let it cool slowly ontop of the warm oven.. Doubt it matters but you never know.

I might try it with the second one I have (traded for a printer, no hd, cables or power) But i need to go pick up the bolts and washers first.

I really did try everything I could think of. I tried putting bolts THROUGH the x-clamp and into the heat syncs to try and get rid of the e74 but that didn't work.

It's a crazy thing to try,  I will admit.. But so far a working 360 is still better then no 360

I also am using artic silver 5 ( or whatever) thermal paste. I forgot to mention that.....


Good luck!

[SlickWilly440]

^
I was asking for a pictures because I was expecting to see a bunch of buldging caps leaking everywhere with melted parts or something.

This post has been edited by SlickWilly440: Nov 14 2007, 03:47 AM

[Boddah]

I might as well try this, I've done everything I can with this board with no results.

[Smoogie]

yeah my console was rrod first then i fixed it with the xclamp replacement..lawdawgs method...

then a couple months later while playing bioshock it e74'ed on me.

i somehow go it to work by messing with the x clamps...then a short bit later it died again

i screwed around with it and somehow got it to go back to rrod....then messed with the xclamps again and it worked for about....couple hours..

now its e74..sitting and collecting dust while i search for answers. =[


i just wish there was an easier wake than baking it in an oven. im eager to find out how long it stays fixed though. thats key.

i also have a 360 hopefully coming back from m$ soon..thinking i should straight off the bat do the xclamp replacements to prevent this from happening again...what do you think?

[adrenaline_wave]

QUOTE(SlickWilly440 @ Nov 13 2007, 09:15 PM)

^
I was asking for a pictures because I was expecting to see a bunch of buldging caps leaking everywhere with melted parts or something.

Hehehe.. I was too when i heard sizzling and came running.. I also forgot to mention that this causes a bad electronics smell

The caps are a bit domed but in no way look ready to blow up. I have seen bad capicators bulging badly and leaking.. This is not the case with my MOBO.. I think I may need to take it apart again to take pictures. But.. At this moment I'm inclined to leave it be until it breaks.. if it breaks again

QUOTE(Smoogie @ Nov 13 2007, 09:44 PM)

yeah my console was rrod first then i fixed it with the xclamp replacement..lawdawgs method...

then a couple months later while playing bioshock it e74'ed on me.

i somehow go it to work by messing with the x clamps...then a short bit later it died again

i screwed around with it and somehow got it to go back to rrod....then messed with the xclamps again and it worked for about....couple hours..

now its e74..sitting and collecting dust while i search for answers. =[
i just wish there was an easier wake than baking it in an oven. im eager to find out how long it stays fixed though. thats key.

i also have a 360 hopefully coming back from m$ soon..thinking i should straight off the bat do the xclamp replacements to prevent this from happening again...what do you think?

It sounds like you are experiencing EXACTLY what I was.. RROD was gone for a few month and then playing halo 3 for the first time it did gave me lines in the graphics. Tweaking the bolts made it go away but it would come back quicker and quicker each time..

Now it's been running for 2 weeks since putting it in the oven which is far better then the first time I tweaked the bolts.

What I think caused the e74 error for me was that i used 2 washers initially between the GPU and mobo putting a lot of strain on the connections in the middle of the chip. But I could be wrong

I'm going to try the shim on the second RROD 360 I have and see how that goes. If that fails After a while I will bake it too.

IT would be wicked cool if i got even a month or 3 out of it this time.. There is no reason I can't bake it again.. other then the capicators blowing up

I would have posted something earlier on what I've done but I wanted to make sure it lasted at least 2 weeks before posting it on here..

[Smoogie]

man. if urs works for an extended amount of time..thats ground breaking.

i too used 2 washers between the mobo and heatsink...

could be our 360's are just the same batch or something ...or maybe that is the problem. also my 360 was vertical..which ive decided is better to be horizontal now.....


my rrod first occured when my friend tripped over the cord making my 360 tip and smack into the ground..

that was sad.



hm. do u think a shim will fix e74 too? i think it should fix the rrod but....e74 seems like a rare problem on all forums with little to nil information. i'd say this thread has the most information regarding e74 fixes than the rest of google....

i dont really have time to mess with it tonight, but tomorow night i'll def try and fix it again...i'll probably fail..but it cant hurt.

[adrenaline_wave]

I think the e74 comes from the x-clamp mod itself Instead of the pressure pushing up in the middle of the chip putting extra pressure on the side of the chip ( from the x-clamp and causing RROD) The mod puts pressure on the middle solder points by flexing it downwards. I did read in a re-balling thread that you can't have individual solder points breaking and they would have to break from the outside in... But the same dude said the issue was with the cpu and NEVER the GPU.. WHich I know is not true as tinkering with only the gpu heat sync would bring the 360 back to life prior to baking it. I baked it the first time and noticed the bolts had loosened a bit on so I tightened them again.. I didn't touch them after the second bake off.

The three washer and shim method puts very little pressure on the chip and is most likely the best solution but I didn't have any shims on hand.

THe 360 I Baked is Manufactured 17-10-2005. When was yours built?

I really hopes this works out too. but at the moment i guessing it won't last but that is half the fun.. I think I enjoy troubleshooting this thing more then I enjoy playing games on it But I've always loved taking broken things apart and trying to fix them.

Anyhow I will keep using it every night. letting it idle for a bit before and after gaming. been Playing NFS Carbon but I might jump back into halo this weekend.

Anyone know how long the heat gun trick works for on adverage? I didn't do alot of reading on that but everything I did see said it would come back very soon..

If you have tried everything else I would give this a whirl.. Make sure you keep it in for awhile to let the heat transfer frrom the heat syncs into the chip and through it,.. If the caps start really sizzling and are doming alot you may want to abort and take it out  and let it cool off.

PREHEAT THE OVEN!!! That way the board isn't getting the heat from the element itself but from the air.
I also had the rack in the middle of the over ( I was roasting pumpkins seeds before I started Cooked with MS products )

[Smoogie]

haha. man i gotta hand it to you. i would have never thought of putting my 360 main board in a freaking oven!


uhm mine was manufactured 2006-09-10.

hm there might actually be some truth behind your theory that the x clamp makes it e74...this also makes me worry as i was about to perform an xclamp replacement on a 360 that isn't broken...hmm..

yeah i dont have a shim either and i'd say i dont know how to make one, but if it does indeed work to fix it...ill find a way.

gonna try messing with the 360 just a little bit more first though. i' saving the we'll call it "oven trick" from now on. oh hey. guess ur the inventor of the "oven trick" hmm. cool. yeah we'll save that for absolute last case scenario.

yeah try playing halo 3..or bioshcok...or some new game that takes hella graphics. i found only the new games that are more graphically intense tend to bring up all these problems..bioshock killed mine...lots of people's 360's died when halo 3 came out...so go for it!

damn. imma have to do it when no one is home..don't want everyone mad i put electronics in my oven. haha..