Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 13, 2007, 02:53:00 PM
Back Ground Story :
I bought a dead (3 rrod 0102 error code) for 50 Bucks with HD cables , wireless controller etc. I had done some reading on here to see what was up with "fixing them" and thought I would give it a try since it was only 50$ and could sell it for more if I didn't get anywhere.
I did the x-clamp replacement where you get m5 bolts to replace the x clamp. 2 washers between MOBO and case and 2 washers between mobo and GPU heat sync. (1 between mobo and cpu). This worked perfectly. No problems for atleast 60-80 hours of gaming (GOW, HALO, ETC). It lasted for 3 months. I then began getting get lines on the screen through the image. Rebooted and got e74 error codes for a bad cable. Did lots of searching and found out about re-balling.. I loosened the heat sync and re-seated it.. This worked for a week and the e 74 code would come back almost daily. i was stuck loosening then tightening to the heat sync at least once a day.. then that stopped working.. Then I tried over heating the gpu (removed fan shroud for the gpu ) and let it bake.. This would get it working again but then it would be dead by the next day.
Frustrated with the whole thing I took out the MOBO and just put the bolts through the mobo and into the heat sync.. I tried using 3 washers between the MOBO and heatsync while using shims to bridge the gap between heat sync and GPU.. This did nothing.. I couldn't get it to come on at all.
Fixed : This is where the flaming will begin I'm sure. but I'm offering this as a chance to get your completely dead 360 back up and running. I take NO responsibility if you catch your house on fire
I've read through all the threads surrounding re-balling/ re-flowing the chips to the motherboards. I don't have the patience nor the steady hand to attempt something like this nor do I have the equipment. I understand what is going on and why it needs to be done..
I looked up lead free solder on the web and found it's melting point ( i picked one out of a list of found ) and saw the melting point is about 423 F.
First run. I removed the MOBO from the case and disconnected everything I could. What I had left was the MOBO with the heat syncs attached (bolts only going through the mobo (only) and then using 3 washers as spacing and a shim cut from a spare CPU heat sync. I tightened it hand tight (really tight) * note I had done this weeks before trying to get the 360 to boot without e74 or rrod (bolts too loose rrod. bolts 1/16 of turn tighter and e74)
I Pre-heated my oven to 350. I then put the mobo on a cookie sheet and placed it in the oven for 10 minutes. After 10 minutes I raised the heat to 375 and kept baking it for another 10 minutes. After that (total time 20 minutes) I removed it from the oven and let it cool for 30 minutes. Placed it back in the case, and turned it on. It booted right away and i played some games.. it froze up once and rebooted. All seemed good. * note 8 bolts on the underside of the MOBO kept the board off the cookie sheet. IE the bolts provided a 3 mm gap between cookie sheet and mobo
next day it didn't turn on. Decided to turn up the heat.
Pre-heated the oven to 400 f. Placed MOBO on the cookie sheet and baked it for 10 minutes. Then turned it up to 450 (beyond melting point of lead - free solder) and baked for 10 more minutes... The Capicators began to leak at this point.. Not a good thing but I didn't care since the thing was completely dead and I had tried everything I could think of ( I'm a network admin by trade). Seeing the caps begin to sizzle (yes sizzle) i took it out and let it cool ontop of the hot oven ( to cool it a bit slower then placing it on the counter) I could now see what looked to be flux covering some solder points on the board ( brownish liquid on top of the solder) I thought for sure the board was done and I over did it. But Most of solder that I took at look at before placing it in the over appeared more metallic/shinny.
results : Been playing it for over two weeks without any issues. intially there was some freezing but I think ive traced it to scratches on the dvd) I've been playing for about 4 hours a night.
Things that may skew the results of what I've done.
Since putting it in the oven i've lowered the res from 1080p to 720p. It appears to run cooler but I've been told it shouldn't make a difference as the scaler chip handles what resolution is output so the load on the GPU should be the same either way.
Before playing any games I let the 360 idle on the dashboard for about 20 minutes to hopefully let it warm up a bit before going full bore. I also let it idle before i turn it off for about 20 minutes.
My theory as to why this works? I brought up the temperature of the board and gpu close or beyond the melting point of the solder on the gpu and the pressure from the x-clamp mod has pushed the GPU back down against the MOBO and perhaps re-flowed the chip ( i know this sounds dumb but I don't know why else this is working as I didn't do anything else other then bake it)
I also did the fan shroud mod (split the fans) and adding cardboard above the gpu heatsync and sealed it to the fan shroud. I did the same to the cpu. I did this right after doing the x-clamp removal in august
ANyhow that is what I did.. Maybe this will help someone else. It makes sense to me why this works but, I don't know if I'm going to have another issue in a months time or what. But it DID take my completely dead 360 from death to playing games again.. I went back to 1080p last night so i will see how that goes.
Anyhow I wouldn't suggest anyone do this unless the board is toast anyhow. The caps sizzling is not a good thing but I have seen servers run for years will lots of caps bulging and leaking all over the place ..
Hope this helps.. FLAME AWAY! This works for me.. i will let you know how it is in another 2 weeks.
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 13, 2007, 02:33:00 PM
if anyone else tries this please post your results below....
Post by: Smoogie on November 13, 2007, 02:39:00 PM
i've barely messed with heat, but it seems to me it worked for you...
i'm not sure i should take the step as drastic as you did, but i think it might be worth a try...not just yet though
let me know how long it holds up.
i wish somone else smarter than us would find a plausible fix for the e74. lots of people seem to be having this same problem but no one seems to find an easy fix..like x clamps removal...
if i overheat my 360 and it turns on, can i be certain that ive narrowed it down to the gpu unit and not the scalar (hana/ana) chip?
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 13, 2007, 03:27:00 PM
I did this to get rid of the RROD.. Then got the e74 error later on. Playing with the tension on the heat sync made the error go away. But it began coming back again and again. Then it got to the point that the thing wouldn't boot.. Either e74 , or the RROD.
I Figured it had to be the GPU, not the scaler chip as I had modded the clamps... Sure enough it was the gpu.
If you didn't do the x-clamp fix try that.. Unless you still have a warranty. My bet is the e74 has nothing to do with the scaler chip and more about the the GPU contact issue with the motherboard.
I have another 360 (rrod , has not been touched ) and Mine wouldn't boot no matter what I did.
Anyhow it makes sense.. Just talked to my buddy (computer engineer) and after he laughed his ass off, he said it make complete sense why it's working now..
Just hopefully it's more of a permanent fix. 2 weeks is far better then screwing with it a few times a night.
Post by: VanydotK on November 13, 2007, 04:56:00 PM
Post by: SlickWilly440 on November 13, 2007, 05:22:00 PM
First off where did you get a 360 withe extras for 50 dollars? Ebay?
Second off could you please post pictures of the mobo after you baked it in the oven?
Post by: Bandit5317 on November 13, 2007, 05:50:00 PM
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 13, 2007, 07:39:00 PM
QUOTE(SlickWilly440 @ Nov 13 2007, 06:58 PM) 
LOL, dude what you did was extreme!
First off where did you get a 360 withe extras for 50 dollars? Ebay?
Second off could you please post pictures of the mobo after you baked it in the oven?
I got the 360 from running an ad in local online classified. The dude sent it Back to MS but they wouldn't touch it since the firmware had been modded.
I didn't take any pictures because I didn't think it would work. But it has. THe MOBO looks the same.. it didn't warp or anything as people have stated with the heat gun trick.
If I feel like taking it all apart again this weekend I will post some pictures but there isn't anything to see
It's nice to finally have it all together in the case after being apart for over a month.QUOTE(Bandit5317 @ Nov 13 2007, 07:26 PM)
I might just try this. I have 2 terminally dead 360s, which I have tried everything on; x-clamp replacement, shim, 12-cent fix, and when I finally got really frustrated, overheat. For those of you that want to flame this, you obviously haven't had an unfixable 3RROD 360 yet. If you were thinking that you should send it in for a professional reflow or reball, you should know that a reflow will cost you around $70 plus shipping, and a reball will cost you $100 or more plus shipping.
Yah I was very sad when I couldn't get it to start at all.. before I could over heat the chip and then it would boot and we could play for a few hours, only to have to do it again the next day.. I was very very sad when it stopped working all together.
I dunno if I would say what I did was extreme
I thought it out. Read a tonne of stuff on theories for what was happening to cause the RROD and then came up with a solution that I thought might work but because of the chance of killing it completely i left it as a last resort I was thinking of sending it off to get reflowed / reballed but A) there is no on locally, and
for 100$ i would rather put that towards a new system and do all the cooling mods right from the begining.. Anyhow. try it out and let me know how it works out.. Try 375 for 10 minutes and then 400 for 10 minutes. and then let it cool slowly ontop of the warm oven.. Doubt it matters but you never know.
I might try it with the second one I have (traded for a printer, no hd, cables or power) But i need to go pick up the bolts and washers first.
I really did try everything I could think of. I tried putting bolts THROUGH the x-clamp and into the heat syncs to try and get rid of the e74 but that didn't work.
It's a crazy thing to try, I will admit.. But so far a working 360 is still better then no 360
I also am using artic silver 5 ( or whatever) thermal paste. I forgot to mention that.....
Good luck!
Post by: SlickWilly440 on November 13, 2007, 07:39:00 PM
I was asking for a pictures because I was expecting to see a bunch of buldging caps leaking everywhere with melted parts or something.
This post has been edited by SlickWilly440: Nov 14 2007, 03:47 AM
Post by: Boddah on November 13, 2007, 07:46:00 PM
Post by: Smoogie on November 13, 2007, 08:08:00 PM
then a couple months later while playing bioshock it e74'ed on me.
i somehow go it to work by messing with the x clamps...then a short bit later it died again
i screwed around with it and somehow got it to go back to rrod....then messed with the xclamps again and it worked for about....couple hours..
now its e74..sitting and collecting dust while i search for answers. =[
i just wish there was an easier wake than baking it in an oven. im eager to find out how long it stays fixed though. thats key.
i also have a 360 hopefully coming back from m$ soon..thinking i should straight off the bat do the xclamp replacements to prevent this from happening again...what do you think?
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 13, 2007, 08:47:00 PM
QUOTE(SlickWilly440 @ Nov 13 2007, 09:15 PM)
^
I was asking for a pictures because I was expecting to see a bunch of buldging caps leaking everywhere with melted parts or something.
Hehehe.. I was too when i heard sizzling and came running.. I also forgot to mention that this causes a bad electronics smell
The caps are a bit domed but in no way look ready to blow up. I have seen bad capicators bulging badly and leaking.. This is not the case with my MOBO.. I think I may need to take it apart again to take pictures.
But.. At this moment I'm inclined to leave it be until it breaks.. if it breaks again QUOTE(Smoogie @ Nov 13 2007, 09:44 PM)
yeah my console was rrod first then i fixed it with the xclamp replacement..lawdawgs method...
then a couple months later while playing bioshock it e74'ed on me.
i somehow go it to work by messing with the x clamps...then a short bit later it died again
i screwed around with it and somehow got it to go back to rrod....then messed with the xclamps again and it worked for about....couple hours..
now its e74..sitting and collecting dust while i search for answers. =[
i just wish there was an easier wake than baking it in an oven. im eager to find out how long it stays fixed though. thats key.
i also have a 360 hopefully coming back from m$ soon..thinking i should straight off the bat do the xclamp replacements to prevent this from happening again...what do you think?
It sounds like you are experiencing EXACTLY what I was.. RROD was gone for a few month and then playing halo 3 for the first time it did gave me lines in the graphics. Tweaking the bolts made it go away but it would come back quicker and quicker each time..
Now it's been running for 2 weeks since putting it in the oven which is far better then the first time I tweaked the bolts.
What I think caused the e74 error for me was that i used 2 washers initially between the GPU and mobo putting a lot of strain on the connections in the middle of the chip. But I could be wrong
I'm going to try the shim on the second RROD 360 I have and see how that goes. If that fails After a while I will bake it too.
IT would be wicked cool if i got even a month or 3 out of it this time.. There is no reason I can't bake it again.. other then the capicators blowing up
I would have posted something earlier on what I've done but I wanted to make sure it lasted at least 2 weeks before posting it on here..
Post by: Smoogie on November 13, 2007, 08:57:00 PM
i too used 2 washers between the mobo and heatsink...
could be our 360's are just the same batch or something ...or maybe that is the problem. also my 360 was vertical..which ive decided is better to be horizontal now.....
my rrod first occured when my friend tripped over the cord making my 360 tip and smack into the ground..
that was sad.
hm. do u think a shim will fix e74 too? i think it should fix the rrod but....e74 seems like a rare problem on all forums with little to nil information. i'd say this thread has the most information regarding e74 fixes than the rest of google....
i dont really have time to mess with it tonight, but tomorow night i'll def try and fix it again...i'll probably fail..but it cant hurt.
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 13, 2007, 11:38:00 PM
Instead of the pressure pushing up in the middle of the chip putting extra pressure on the side of the chip ( from the x-clamp and causing RROD) The mod puts pressure on the middle solder points by flexing it downwards. I did read in a re-balling thread that you can't have individual solder points breaking and they would have to break from the outside in... But the same dude said the issue was with the cpu and NEVER the GPU.. WHich I know is not true as tinkering with only the gpu heat sync would bring the 360 back to life prior to baking it. I baked it the first time and noticed the bolts had loosened a bit on so I tightened them again.. I didn't touch them after the second bake off. The three washer and shim method puts very little pressure on the chip and is most likely the best solution but I didn't have any shims on hand.
THe 360 I Baked is Manufactured 17-10-2005. When was yours built?
I really hopes this works out too.
but at the moment i guessing it won't last but that is half the fun.. I think I enjoy troubleshooting this thing more then I enjoy playing games on it But I've always loved taking broken things apart and trying to fix them.Anyhow I will keep using it every night. letting it idle for a bit before and after gaming. been Playing NFS Carbon but I might jump back into halo this weekend.
Anyone know how long the heat gun trick works for on adverage? I didn't do alot of reading on that but everything I did see said it would come back very soon..
If you have tried everything else I would give this a whirl.. Make sure you keep it in for awhile to let the heat transfer frrom the heat syncs into the chip and through it,.. If the caps start really sizzling and are doming alot you may want to abort and take it out and let it cool off.
PREHEAT THE OVEN!!! That way the board isn't getting the heat from the element itself but from the air.
I also had the rack in the middle of the over ( I was roasting pumpkins seeds before I started Cooked with MS products
) Post by: Smoogie on November 14, 2007, 12:09:00 AM
uhm mine was manufactured 2006-09-10.
hm there might actually be some truth behind your theory that the x clamp makes it e74...this also makes me worry as i was about to perform an xclamp replacement on a 360 that isn't broken...hmm..
yeah i dont have a shim either and i'd say i dont know how to make one, but if it does indeed work to fix it...ill find a way.
gonna try messing with the 360 just a little bit more first though. i' saving the we'll call it "oven trick" from now on. oh hey. guess ur the inventor of the "oven trick" hmm. cool. yeah we'll save that for absolute last case scenario.
yeah try playing halo 3..or bioshcok...or some new game that takes hella graphics. i found only the new games that are more graphically intense tend to bring up all these problems..bioshock killed mine...lots of people's 360's died when halo 3 came out...so go for it!
damn. imma have to do it when no one is home..don't want everyone mad i put electronics in my oven. haha..
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 14, 2007, 09:13:00 AM
All you need for a shim is a flat piece of metal that is the same size as the washer you are using or a tad smaller. I used two cooling fins from an old dell optliplex 150 cpu heat sync. I tired using only one fin but it wasn't thick enough, (chip overheated quickly) I add the second on and it worked.
I thought NFS Carbon had crazy graphics... But maybe I'm wrong.. I think it looks way better then any other racing games other then dirt.
Anyhow i will fire up halo.
Yah... If you live at home they may not understand what is going on and you most likely won't be able to convince them.
But they can't really get mad if the thing is completely dead and the warranty has run our or is void. You will look like a genius if you pull it off.It's pretty safe to do but you never know with the capicators as I'm not 100% sure if they may exploded if over heated.. I've only ever seen them dome badly and then really start leaking.
Anyhow whoever tries it.. Make sure you hit 400 for 10 minutes and then 450 for 10 minutes. Anything less if far lower then the melting point of the solder.
Post by: canleyvale on November 14, 2007, 09:28:00 PM
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 15, 2007, 08:26:00 AM
QUOTE(canleyvale @ Nov 14 2007, 10:28 PM)
just 1 question, wouldn't the plastic parts on the mobo melt? like the power socket, power/reset buttons or the sata/power socket for the dvd
Yo,
No nothing melted. I did notice when I plugged in the power cord it was a bit tighter but it was fairly easy to pull in and out before. Not anymore. I removed all the parts that I could. The power button board was removed before placing it in the oven.. I took the motherboard completely out of the metal casing.
I played halo 3 last night for an hour and a bit at 1080p and i checked this more morning and it fired up like it should.
I'm still surprised that this is still working.. I was giving it a week at the most.
Just for the record, I put it in the oven on October 31st. it has been exactly 14 days of fairly heavy use. Games I've played / tested with : NFS carbon, Nhl 2008, Gears of War, Halo 3, Sherk party (just because shrek is fun)
I have another RROD 360 that I was thinking of putting in the oven WITH the ORIGINAl x-clamps to see if that would fix the RROD WITH x-clamps... But I might be able to get warranty from MS for it even though it's been opened.
I didn't realise how much I had missed the 360. I love my wii.. But it isn't even close to the same
Post by: canleyvale on November 15, 2007, 05:57:00 PM
like you said, " last resort"..so there's nothing to lose. better than chucking the whole damn thing in the bin.
i reckon the x-clamp fix is only temporary.
a permanent fix would be reflow/reballing. but here in sydney, there's nobody that is doing it or if they do i think they will charge you an arm and a leg.
so i say, go for it...let's bake it! lol
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 15, 2007, 05:29:00 PM
QUOTE(canleyvale @ Nov 15 2007, 06:57 PM)
ok, gonna give it a go (when i have time, coz i got quite a few to do)
like you said, " last resort"..so there's nothing to lose. better than chucking the whole damn thing in the bin.
i reckon the x-clamp fix is only temporary.
a permanent fix would be reflow/reballing. but here in sydney, there's nobody that is doing it or if they do i think they will charge you an arm and a leg.
so i say, go for it...let's bake it! lol
Yes... But maybe x-clamp fix Plus baking at 450 is what betty crocker (cook book) Calls for.
Like I said before.. The x-clamp fix worked for three months and then began to die a rather quick e74 death.
I'm gonna keep torturing it until it fails...
I suspect I *MAY* have reflowed it.. I have no other ideas why it is working (board not warping, etc etc)
Post by: Smoogie on November 15, 2007, 09:28:00 PM
if u want to know tho. my secondary error code is 1022
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 16, 2007, 12:50:00 PM
QUOTE(Smoogie @ Nov 15 2007, 10:28 PM)
messed around with mine a little bit....couldnt fix it.
if u want to know tho. my secondary error code is 1022
This is the thread that I read when I first got the e74 errors and went searching for an answer. This is what got me thinking that I could bake my board and possibly reflow the gpu to the board .
http://forums.xbox-s...p;#entry4016524
What do you mean you messed around with yours?
You did the x-clamp mod right? I would loosen the bolts way off making sure you push the heat sync off the surface of the gpu chip. Turn it on, Let it over heat ( two red lights will come on). Let it cool for 10 minutes. Then boot it .. If you get the x60 logo on boot shut it off and then Tighten the heat sync back down just to the point where the fans don't start running faster then they normally do at idle. ( this will take time) Make small adjustments to all four bolts and then turn it on and listen to the fans.. if they start screaming, the heatsync isn't tight enough.
I bet that once you over heat the GPU that the think will boot once you let it cool down.. If so you have the exact same thing as me and i would bake your motherboard.
I'm going to try the bake on my 360 WITH x-clamps still installed. I'm going to bake it at 450 for 10 minutes with out first putting it in at 400.
If this works then maybe i have found a possible cure.. More widespread testing is needed though to see if my idea holds up.
If it lasts a month of daily heat cycles and hard gaming in 1080p I will make a tutorial on this and post it and see how other people's boards are working with this. But really we need more people trying this then just me since maybe something else I've done is squewing things.
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 17, 2007, 02:00:00 AM
-a
http://www.instructa...BF1K06EP28625L/
Someone was nice enough to send this to me todaywhich kinda explains what might be happening.. flowing chips to pcb in a toaster oven....
Post by: svincent on November 17, 2007, 03:50:00 AM
so far i have not been able to fix the E73 and no one knows how to fix it... I think like you its either cook it or buy another and keep it for parts (or sell on ebay)...
when i build up the courage to do it i'll let you know.. Is there any way you can do a step by step tut ;-)
Cheers - SV
Post by: Smoogie on November 17, 2007, 04:49:00 AM
swappping out x clamp hardware that sort of thing.
yeah after overheating a bit, it works. so. you're totally right.
damn dude. i think u stumbled upon a genius fix. gotta say. that took some mad guts sticking it in the oven like that. make a tut and be credited for it!
might have to do your method. not just yet though. i have some other options left still. =p
Post by: Cobb2003 on November 17, 2007, 09:35:00 AM
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 17, 2007, 03:19:00 PM
QUOTE(Cobb2003 @ Nov 17 2007, 10:35 AM)
No problem bout the oven tutorial i was looking up on reflowing to see if i could do it myself and stumbled on that site and figured it may explain what happened in your case.
THanks Again! The tutorial explains what I thought might happen if I put it in my oven
Luckily it did.I justt finished playing bioshock demo on my second 360 that I just put in the oven last night after doing x-clamp replacement. I dunno if it was hot enough or in thier long enough but something was smoking in there
No leakage in the caps on this one. I'm sure the x-clamp replacement (using 3 washers on gpu and shim) would last awhile but I figured I would bake it too to see how long it holds up.. I don't have second set of power cords for this so I need to track some down and then give it to friend to try and kill it. I also did the fan shroud split (with electical tap along the bottom of the shroud to create a seal against Mobo) and cut out the metal infront of the fans.in lieu of the a tutorial, here is a link to the pictures I took w before, during and after baking My second 360. Only baked for 10 minutes this time to try and avoid Sizzling capicators..
http://picasaweb.goo...akingTheXbox360
I don't think we need a tutorial until some terminally dead 360 are resurrected. There are few of you that have some dead ones so i would love to see you try this. My last oven adventure doesn't count so much since I did the x-clamp mod at the same time so the resurrected 360 may be a result of the mod only... But if it lasts That would be wicked
If you are worried about killing your 360 and wonder if it's safe, I don't know 100% But I have Baked two 360s and they are both working again because of it!
Anyhow let me know how it turns out!
Don' forget to do cooling mods as well so that it won't ever get so hot again.
Post by: svincent on November 17, 2007, 07:14:00 PM
Remove MB for case, removed RF module
preheated oven to 220oC (fan forced oven)
put MB in oven on tray until capicators started to sizzle (about 7mins)
my 360 is currently cooling, will let you know the result after it cools and i put
it back together
SV
Post by: svincent on November 17, 2007, 07:41:00 PM
didn't work... 360 still starts up, however same E73 error msg appears.. I could heat it up some more however i think that will completly fry the capicators..well off to buy a PS3 for me or possibly another 360
SV
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 17, 2007, 08:02:00 PM
... Well the first time I let it sit at 400 for 10 minutes and then 10 at 450 for my completely dead, won't turn on at all for any reason 360 and then it started up and has been going since for 16 days... 
You could try more heat and let it go.. I think I noticed mine the first time after it started sizzling.. So you might only need a total of 17 minutes.Are you using three washers and a small shim?
Post by: svincent on November 17, 2007, 09:00:00 PM
even at more heat, at wot stage do i remove it from the heat..
Cheer - SV
Post by: Cobb2003 on November 18, 2007, 02:39:00 AM
QUOTE(svincent @ Nov 18 2007, 06:00 AM)
yeah, i'm alredy using 3 wahers + shim...
even at more heat, at wot stage do i remove it from the heat..
Cheer - SV
i would suggest you try http://www.instructa...-Soldering-BGA/
it sems to be a better way in some sense to try baking as its got the exact timing and temperature
Post by: Skinleech on November 19, 2007, 07:33:00 AM
So, I figured, what the hell, I'll give this a try, and pre-heated the oven to 230. Dropped the motherboard in on a baking tray (but still in the metal casing, as I was too lazy to undo my machine bolts) for ~17 minutes and let it cool over night.
Tried it today, and it seems to be totally fine. I'd been experiencing freezes right at the start of Bioshock, and they've gone away. The only issue was the heat has melted to blue buttons for the sync control abnd eject control, so no contact is made. They'll be easy to fix & I'll be able to give it a good playtest soon.
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 19, 2007, 09:21:00 AM
QUOTE(svincent @ Nov 17 2007, 10:00 PM)
yeah, i'm alredy using 3 wahers + shim...
even at more heat, at wot stage do i remove it from the heat..
Cheer - SV
I took mine out when i heard and saw the caps leaking... Maybe let it sit at 450 for a total of 15 minutes?
Or try 400 for 10 (prewarming stage) and then 450 for 10 minutes or as long as you can bare it
I have a lead on another 50$ 360 that i might pick up just to try it out with out doing the x-clamp mod first.
I need the power cables and hd cables anyhow and that is worth 50$ to me ...
QUOTE(Skinleech @ Nov 19 2007, 08:33 AM)
Well, I got the 3rrod a few weeks back, and fixed it with the X-clamp replacement & shim (using AS5) which worked. For a few mroe weeks - it died again giving me the 3rrod again and hasn't worked since.
So, I figured, what the hell, I'll give this a try, and pre-heated the oven to 230. Dropped the motherboard in on a baking tray (but still in the metal casing, as I was too lazy to undo my machine bolts) for ~17 minutes and let it cool over night.
Tried it today, and it seems to be totally fine. I'd been experiencing freezes right at the start of Bioshock, and they've gone away. The only issue was the heat has melted to blue buttons for the sync control abnd eject control, so no contact is made. They'll be easy to fix & I'll be able to give it a good playtest soon.
WICKED! Shitty about the buttons tho.. that really sucks.. I wonder if that had to do with the case still being attached? I can't see how it would..
I'm not so sure about the case and i didn't want it to warp or distort so that is why I took it out.. I also thought direct heat to the bottom of the MOBO may be needed.
Mine froze up on me the first couple of times I played after baking it but it's been fine since.. I did all the cooling mods too (fan shroud plus carboard over gpu heat sync)
We will wait and see how yours turns out.
Post by: svincent on November 19, 2007, 04:43:00 PM
I think i will give it another go when i get a chance @ 230oC (450oF) for approx 15mins...
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 19, 2007, 07:45:00 PM
QUOTE(svincent @ Nov 19 2007, 06:19 PM)
Funny thing, i turned the 360 on again yesterday and it worked... I was able to play Tomb Raider for about an hour but then it sh@t itself again, but that is the longest I've been able to play in a long time.
I think i will give it another go when i get a chance @ 230oC (450oF) for approx 15mins...
Check to see if the bolts losened because mine had after baking it the first time
Post by: Skinleech on November 20, 2007, 01:15:00 AM
QUOTE(adrenaline_wave @ Nov 19 2007, 04:57 PM)
WICKED! Shitty about the buttons tho.. that really sucks.. I wonder if that had to do with the case still being attached? I can't see how it would..
I'm not so sure about the case and i didn't want it to warp or distort so that is why I took it out.. I also thought direct heat to the bottom of the MOBO may be needed.
Mine froze up on me the first couple of times I played after baking it but it's been fine since.. I did all the cooling mods too (fan shroud plus carboard over gpu heat sync)
We will wait and see how yours turns out.
No idea - maybe so, as the excess heat of the case would radiate out to the buttons and affect them. I took my x-clamps apart to have a closer look, and it totally melted the buttons - they were like miniature hills.
So, I scraped the remains away, leaving just the contacts at teh back, so with the aid of a screwdriver I can now eject the drive. My plan is to extend the eject & synch buttons so they'll provide contact.
I played a wee bit of Assassin's Creed last night, a wee bit more of Bioshock & some GH2 with no problems.
Post by: kuken101 on November 20, 2007, 09:07:00 AM
Going for 230c in 15-17 minutes with the metal casing still on. Ill post later, if its a success or not.
Im getting a new 360 tomorrow anyways. Might as well try it since i still want to play backups.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This post has been edited by kuken101: Nov 20 2007, 05:08 PM
Post by: kuken101 on November 20, 2007, 12:05:00 PM
I did 14 minutes in 230C. With metal casing, the buttons melted but its easy getting the dvd tray open using a nickle or something
Post by: charles648 on November 20, 2007, 01:20:00 PM
Folks - 10 minutes - not enough time!!! WTF?? Will this actually work?? I can't wait for tommorow.. Thanksgiving is in too days! Am I going to mess up the stove? Will I be shot?
Good luck everyone!!!
Whoops - Forgot to ask if it will be OK if you leave the heatsinks OFF and just put it straigh into the oven on a cooling rack like for cookies that sit on after they are done.. I did the RMK III trick where I have to take the screws out of the metal base to release the MOBO and then I placed the heatsinks on the MOBO with M5 screws and nuts... Pain in the ass..
Post by: 360newbieboy on November 20, 2007, 02:37:00 PM
QUOTE(charles648 @ Nov 20 2007, 08:56 PM)
Whoops - Forgot to ask if it will be OK if you leave the heatsinks OFF and just put it straigh into the oven on a cooling rack like for cookies that sit on after they are done.. I did the RMK III trick where I have to take the screws out of the metal base to release the MOBO and then I placed the heatsinks on the MOBO with M5 screws and nuts... Pain in the ass..
I think the idea is the bolts on the x clamp hold the board nice and flat, which aids in re-flowing the solder so you want to leave them on me thinks!
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 21, 2007, 09:46:00 AM
QUOTE(360newbieboy @ Nov 20 2007, 04:13 PM) 
I think the idea is the bolts on the x clamp hold the board nice and flat, which aids in re-flowing the solder so you want to leave them on me thinks!
Aight if 10 minutes at 450 is not enough (still 3 rrod) I would go back to my original post and follow exactly what I did.
NO, don't do it with out the heat sync on. You want the heat to transfer through the heat sync then into the chip into the solder balls underneath the gpu. The heatsync (with x-clamp mod) pulls the chips down against the Motherboard. This is what needs to happen. I don't really think you need the m5 bolts through the case. I'm running mine with the bolts only through the MOtherboard... The heat syncs stay hot after you take it out the oven..
TAKE IT OUT OF THE CASE!
What buttons are you melting? I haven't melted ANYTHING yet in either of mine.
Either my oven temperature reading is off (likely) or you guys are doing something different.
Remeber : I first did 400 for 10 minutes then 10 at 450 (turned up the temp with the board still in the oven)
Not it doesn't screw up your oven (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Mine totatlly dead 360 that I wrote about initially is still going strong. Very strong at 1080p playing halo, GOW, NFS Carbon. I'm 3 weeks in exactly today. Playing every night tryign to get it to crash.
Can you post pictures of your melted buttons?
So so far one person has had success? Did you do the cooling mods as well?
Post by: kuken101 on November 21, 2007, 10:31:00 AM
This is exactly what i did to get mine running.
1. Pre-heated the oven to aprox 230C (446f)
2. Removed fans etc, but letting the metal casing and heat sinks to be on.
3. Waited for 14-15minutes until i couldnt bare any longer cause of the fumes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
4. I put it on the stove to let it cool down.
5. Tightened the screws like 1/4.
The two small blue buttons for dvd and sync thing melted. It has to do with the metal casing being
on.
The cooling mods ive got is the thing where u split the air flow using a piece of cardboard.
And i allso attached fans to both gpu and cpu heatsink and let the dvd hang out of the box.
First off, i let it idle in dash for like 20 minutes like adranaline_wave said and then i booted up
guitar hero, i played it for almost 4 hours straight without any problems.
Thats what i call a success. The reason for letting the casing to be on was that i did rbj's xclamp replacement.
Didnt wanna mess with that.
Anyways, photos in a an hour or so.
This post has been edited by kuken101: Nov 21 2007, 06:35 PM
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 21, 2007, 11:33:00 AM
Don't get too excited yet. My first baking attempt at 350/400 lasted a day and then went back to RROD. I bet it works but don't get too excited as I did... This way you avoid being sad if it breaks.
That is why I upped the heat the second round. I didn't think it would work the first round but I wanted to make sure I didn't need all the heat before baking the board.
Since there has been several people melting their buttons I suggest that ANYONE trying this in the future follow my setup exactly. I removed the board from the case and mounted the heat syncs to the board, not to the case. I don't have any melted buttons and both machines are purring away
You didn't mention which setup you use for the x-clamp. Did you use three washers and shim between motherboard and gpu heatsync? Or only two? I believe the two washer method is what led to my e74 error.
Keep me updated on your 360...
If yours continues to work I will make a tutorial for this.
Post by: charles648 on November 21, 2007, 11:47:00 AM
Post by: charles648 on November 21, 2007, 10:55:00 PM
Kudos to the poster! Maybe there might be something else to try in the future, you never know.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/uhh.gif)
Post by: kuken101 on November 22, 2007, 10:09:00 AM
Tried to get the real error code for it?
Tightened or losened your screws etc?
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 22, 2007, 10:22:00 AM
QUOTE(charles648 @ Nov 21 2007, 11:55 PM)
Well I cooked it for 15min at 425 with heatsinks installed and no luck - RROD.. I guess my 360 is toast. The Caps were sizzling and the solder looked very shiny after I took it out. I give up on this thing.
Kudos to the poster! Maybe there might be something else to try in the future, you never know..
Dude
You need to reach the melting point of lead free solder. 425 is not hot enough. Follow my original post but in your case (no shim) use two washers and tighten the bolts snug. You don't need to screw the bolts through the case. Neither of my 360s are are bolted through the case, only to the underside of the MOBO. I cooked both at 450 (first bake was 400 for 10 , 450 for 10) and the second was just 450 for 10.
Don't throw it out. Mail me your 360
I will take it off you hands. It may just be that this fix doesn't work
but so far 3 out of 4 or 5 are working.... This will smell bad.. I would try preheating the oven to 450-460 and let it bake for 10 full minutes (or as long as you can bare) and then take it out and let it cool. Plug back into your tv (without casing or anything else other then power button. see if it boots. Open up the windows! If it does re-install in your case the way it is (bolts to underside of motherboard)
PM me if you want throw out your 360.. I do need a another power supply and tv cables (serious)
What is your seconday error code?
thanks.
Post by: kuken101 on November 22, 2007, 03:50:00 PM
Its still working, im on day 3. Been playing Assassins Creed for like 5 hours now.
I know it will probably die soon enough but im happy that it works
Post by: adrenaline_wave on November 23, 2007, 10:25:00 AM
QUOTE(kuken101 @ Nov 22 2007, 05:26 PM)
I had mine in 446-450 in 15 mins.
Its still working, im on day 3. Been playing Assassins Creed for like 5 hours now.
I know it will probably die soon enough but im happy that it works
Yah
So mine died yesterday.. I was playing halo 3 (1080p) and it locked up. Rebooted played NFS it locked up, rebooted. It seems awfully hot. Froze again yesterday and then the RROD.. So my idea has failed. Mind you i'm happy i got about a month more use out of it.
I tightened the bolts on the x-clamp mod and it came back to life. I baked it at 450 for 12 minutes. Cooled. Fired up and loaded game. Turned it off to put it back together , But I was watching CSI while I was tightening the bolts on the cpu, my socket slipped and took off two resistors.. Now it won't boot
Get cpu error code 0022.. Feck.Ohh well.. I will now use my second one
I will keep you updated on how long this one lasts.My guess why my first one failes after 23 days is that my shim wasn't thick enough and might not been putting enough pressure on the gpu. When I removed the shimms it booted right away.
the first 360 looked liked the colors where washed out a bit (whites too bright). the second 360's colors looks so much darker and nicer so I'm not too upset i killed my first one.. Guess I don't need to spend 100$ on power and hd cables for it
LOL.
Aight Keep us up to date on your system too.
Post by: charles648 on November 23, 2007, 04:50:00 PM
Going to do the "Swap the Box" method soon.
Peace out everyone!!
PS - Too bad to hear about that Adrenalin Wave.. Sucks.
Post by: svincent on November 23, 2007, 11:01:00 PM
I can tell you though, all the solder had liquified so i guess that is what i was aiming for..
SV
Post by: williamh2777 on November 30, 2007, 04:33:00 PM
Post by: Gizmo_duck on November 30, 2007, 11:01:00 PM
In fact I'd say youre a smart individual in the troubleshooting department.
I would have done something differently though. 450*F only needs to be kept for 45 -60 seconds, and gradual cooling needs to take place.
This will be my baking profile:
4 min. 200 deg. Warm up board and allow temperatures to equalize.
2 min. 325 deg. Bring temperature up to saturation.
30 sec + 450 deg. Temperature raised until solder melts and beads at individual pins, and then held for 30 additional seconds.
Tap the cookie sheet before cool down... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/muhaha.gif)
I read recently that The EU dropped the hammer on electronics that have lead-solder in them, and didn't give manufacture enough time to adjust.
I bet some hasty decisions were made, and then they switched to the lead-free solder, the and some "know it all engineer forgot to set the proper heat on the reflow ovens, baking at lead-based solder temps.
Remember this too, the only reason Xbox one was #2 was because the Ps2 came out a year before the original console. So there was a rush to get it out there.
This post has been edited by Gizmo_duck: Dec 1 2007, 07:05 AM
Post by: flergle on November 30, 2007, 11:19:00 PM
This post has been edited by flergle: Dec 1 2007, 07:20 AM
Post by: Gizmo_duck on December 01, 2007, 12:48:00 AM
QUOTE(Gizmo_duck @ Dec 1 2007, 01:01 AM)
This will be my baking profile:
4 min. 200 deg. Warm up board and allow temperatures to equalize.
2 min. 325 deg. Bring temperature up to saturation.
30 sec + 450 deg. Temperature raised until solder melts and beads at individual pins, and then held for 30 additional seconds.
Tap the cookie sheet before cool down...
My xbox has worked for more then 10 minuets. With my heat profile as above. I didn't burn my chips, but I do see some browning around most of the solder points. All that tells me is that the solder was not fully melted and this has solidified the connections.
I'll keep you posted and let you all know if my 360 fails ASAP. it's 2:25am EST 12-01-2007
Post by: mk500 on December 04, 2007, 12:46:00 AM
Preheat to 400
Insert XBox on cookie sheet
Wait 5 minutes
Turn oven to 450
Wait 10 minutes
At this point the caps had been smoldering with brown goo for 3 minutes or so.
Remove from oven and let cool on top. At one point during baking I briefly turned up to 460, but the caps seemed to REALLY smoke then, so I turned it immediately back down. I think my oven must be pretty accurate.
Any suggestions on how long it will take to cool? I'm getting antsy...
Can't wait to try it :-)
Post by: mk500 on December 04, 2007, 01:18:00 AM
At the very least we are confirming the fact the the RROD is definitely bad solder joints somewhere.
It may not be a permanent fix, but it's the best I've had this machine working since RROD. I have pictures if anyone wants to see what my capacitors looked like afterwards :-)
The only problem I have is that the power connector is EXTREMELY tight now. But it still works. All buttons and ports are functioning.
QUOTE(mk500 @ Dec 3 2007, 11:46 PM)
I decided to give this a go with my "tried everything" RROD x360. Build date is 3/05, I believe. I had already tried RBJtech's MK3 with and without shim with only brief success before back to RROD, so I figure this is my only hope. I bolted the heatsyncs to the motherboard (no shim, using arctic silver), and used the following baking profile:
Preheat to 400
Insert XBox on cookie sheet
Wait 5 minutes
Turn oven to 450
Wait 10 minutes
At this point the caps had been smoldering with brown goo for 3 minutes or so.
Remove from oven and let cool on top. At one point during baking I briefly turned up to 460, but the caps seemed to REALLY smoke then, so I turned it immediately back down. I think my oven must be pretty accurate.
Any suggestions on how long it will take to cool? I'm getting antsy...
Can't wait to try it :-)
Post by: mk500 on December 04, 2007, 02:13:00 AM
It has run perfectly for about an hour now, so I'm seriously considering reassembling everything.
What does everyone think?
QUOTE(mk500 @ Dec 4 2007, 12:18 AM)
OK, I let mine cool for 20 minutes. I just finished a race in PGR4. Awesome! It's been running perfectly for about 20 minutes now.
At the very least we are confirming the fact the the RROD is definitely bad solder joints somewhere.
It may not be a permanent fix, but it's the best I've had this machine working since RROD. I have pictures if anyone wants to see what my capacitors looked like afterwards :-)
The only problem I have is that the power connector is EXTREMELY tight now. But it still works. All buttons and ports are functioning.
Post by: kuken101 on December 04, 2007, 02:52:00 AM
I havent reassambled anything, since i dont want it to stop working again.
My setup is horrible to be honest, ive got 2 fans laying on top of the heat sinks and the dvd outside the case haha. Atleast it works. And it has for quite some time.
Post by: foo_addict on December 05, 2007, 05:58:00 AM
I tried this today and it all went a bit wrong.... Used the same temp profile as you guys and after 9 mins on 450 I decided to open the door just to check when BANG! One of the capacitors exploded right past my face! VERY LUCKY! Took it out straight away and let it cool down.
Cleaned off all the fibre like remains of the capacitor from around the oven and mobo. Just plugged it in, basically for a laugh but its starting up fine
havent played anything yet as im not quite sure what that capacitor did. I took pictures but my pc wont take them off my phone at the mo so you'll have to wait. However, I can show you which capacitor went from this image....
Anyone know what this one did and/or if its safe to still use the xbox?
Cheers
Adam
Post by: HCarr277 on December 05, 2007, 07:51:00 AM
We all know that heat kills electronic components. At such an extreme temperature there is no doubt in my mind that it will reflow the solder, but at what price to the longevity of the other electrical components? I'm sure the heat affects the rest of the mobo in some sort of negative fashion in the long run, possibly the reason for the RROD reappearing after this method. I realize that this is similar to the method used in production to flow the solder to begin with, but I'm sure that it's under more controlled cirumstances.
Also, I know this a little off topic, but has M$ resolved this issue with the 360s they are producing now? Say, if I were to buy a new one, would I need to expect to eventually get the RROD even on a new unit? I know it would be covered under warranty, but I have read several times on here of people sending units in for warranty repair and getting back refurbished units that also eventually get the RROD. I have always been an XBox fan and as much as I'd love to have a 360, I'm considering just forgetting the whole thing and getting an original XBox and all my favorite games. I don't want a console I'm going to have to be working on constantly with the thought in the back of my mind that every day I turn it on may be the last time it works.
Post by: foo_addict on December 05, 2007, 08:03:00 AM
Post by: HCarr277 on December 05, 2007, 08:28:00 AM
See, this is exactly what I'm concerned about...
Post by: foo_addict on December 05, 2007, 09:38:00 AM
Post by: foo_addict on December 05, 2007, 01:55:00 PM
Post by: Relix on December 05, 2007, 06:21:00 PM
Post by: charles648 on December 06, 2007, 07:54:00 AM
Update on my system:
When I turn it on, I get the 0001 power supply error 3rod error. Does anyone know what to do in this matter? I've heard that your power supply is probably bad and to use another's power brick..?? How could my power supply be bad when it worked fine until after I baked my 360 the second time...?? Ports fried after the baking?? I can still plug it in..
Before I baked my 360, I was getting the 0020 error after the MKIII RBJ method..
Post by: chupektong on December 06, 2007, 10:25:00 AM
QUOTE(charles648 @ Dec 6 2007, 04:30 PM)
Hey everyone, just checking in -
Update on my system:
When I turn it on, I get the 0001 power supply error 3rod error. Does anyone know what to do in this matter? I've heard that your power supply is probably bad and to use another's power brick..?? How could my power supply be bad when it worked fine until after I baked my 360 the second time...?? Ports fried after the baking?? I can still plug it in..
Before I baked my 360, I was getting the 0020 error after the MKIII RBJ method..
I have the same case like yours. It got short somewhere around the motherboard. When I check with tester 12v and ground are short . I am still working on it look for the damage component. I have tried change the mosfet and no help.
Post by: charles648 on December 06, 2007, 11:01:00 AM
Thanks for replying!! Maybe if you figure out what went wrong I'll get my 360 working again!!
Post by: flippy10 on December 07, 2007, 01:28:00 AM
Post by: elocin671 on December 14, 2007, 08:07:00 PM
Post by: echto on December 14, 2007, 09:28:00 PM
QUOTE(foo_addict @ Dec 5 2007, 07:39 AM)
Manage to sort my phone out....
Hats off to you man... Heres a case of beer!
Hope that puppy lives after the cap replacement.Post by: elocin671 on December 16, 2007, 06:40:00 AM
This post has been edited by elocin671: Dec 16 2007, 02:41 PM
Post by: mk500 on December 21, 2007, 02:29:00 AM
QUOTE(elocin671 @ Dec 16 2007, 05:40 AM)
i pre heated the oven for 450F. let the motherboard bake for 9 1/2 mins. raised the heat to 475F for the last 30 seconds(10 mins total). and this darn board still doesnt work..
I'm not sure going over 450 is a good idea. I went to 460 for a couple seconds, and my caps were really scarry (much more goo), so i immediately dropped back down.
My box is still running perfectly, by the way.
Post by: Super Anto on December 21, 2007, 05:09:00 AM
Post by: stratman71 on January 08, 2008, 06:38:00 PM
Post by: elocin671 on January 08, 2008, 06:29:00 PM
QUOTE(mk500 @ Dec 21 2007, 07:29 PM)
I'm not sure going over 450 is a good idea. I went to 460 for a couple seconds, and my caps were really scarry (much more goo), so i immediately dropped back down.
My box is still running perfectly, by the way.
my caps show no hint of burning... they look different. but they didnt burn... i wrapped each cap in aluminum foil. the only thing that melted was the dvd eject button.
Post by: adrenaline_wave on February 11, 2008, 09:05:00 PM
QUOTE(HCarr277 @ Dec 5 2007, 09:27 AM)
I have been doing extensive reading here on the forums about the various fixes for the RROD, as I'm considering purchasing a 360 on eBay and attempting a repair. This Betty Crocker reflow method makes sense to me, of course as a last resort, but every method I have read about seems to turn out not-so-permanent, from this one to the X clamp replacement (the most successful it seems) or heat gun, eventually resulting in the RROD again.
We all know that heat kills electronic components. At such an extreme temperature there is no doubt in my mind that it will reflow the solder, but at what price to the longevity of the other electrical components? I'm sure the heat affects the rest of the mobo in some sort of negative fashion in the long run, possibly the reason for the RROD reappearing after this method. I realize that this is similar to the method used in production to flow the solder to begin with, but I'm sure that it's under more controlled cirumstances.
Also, I know this a little off topic, but has M$ resolved this issue with the 360s they are producing now? Say, if I were to buy a new one, would I need to expect to eventually get the RROD even on a new unit? I know it would be covered under warranty, but I have read several times on here of people sending units in for warranty repair and getting back refurbished units that also eventually get the RROD. I have always been an XBox fan and as much as I'd love to have a 360, I'm considering just forgetting the whole thing and getting an original XBox and all my favorite games. I don't want a console I'm going to have to be working on constantly with the thought in the back of my mind that every day I turn it on may be the last time it works.
Yes this fix is ghetto
My New arcade with the falcon MOBO runs sooo coool.. THe other one felt like a hair dryer after all the cooling mods.. This runs cooler then my PC'power supply and it's very quite.
No complaints on the new one.
Post by: Skinleech on March 06, 2008, 07:59:00 AM
I'm gonna do a mates one this weekend which I why I went looking for this thread again. Good to see it's still going on and off.
I guess I'll post back here with any updates to the 2nd console, should be doing it this weekend. Fingers crossed I won't melt the eject buttons again..
Cheers.
Post by: StanleyJohnson on March 15, 2008, 11:16:00 AM
Well, mine is still running great, anmd that was Nov 19th I oven blasted mine, so approx 14 weeks. Pretty good going. That's with an Mk3 X-clamps replacement too.
I'm gonna do a mates one this weekend which I why I went looking for this thread again. Good to see it's still going on and off.
I guess I'll post back here with any updates to the 2nd console, should be doing it this weekend. Fingers crossed I won't melt the eject buttons again..
Cheers.
Post by: Skinleech on March 17, 2008, 06:03:00 AM
QUOTE(StanleyJohnson @ Mar 15 2008, 05:52 PM)
So, how did it go?
Well, mine is still running great, anmd that was Nov 19th I oven blasted mine, so approx 14 weeks. Pretty good going. That's with an Mk3 X-clamps replacement too.
I'm gonna do a mates one this weekend which I why I went looking for this thread again. Good to see it's still going on and off.
I guess I'll post back here with any updates to the 2nd console, should be doing it this weekend. Fingers crossed I won't melt the eject buttons again..
Cheers.
Only just got round to trying it out properly this weekend. And..... Seems to have worked fine again. Had to do the X-clamps fix though. Played some Burnout Paradise for a bit with no issues. The owenr gave it a 90 min session the other day, and he says it's totally fine.
Unfortunately, the blue push-pins for eject/sync melted again, so I need to come up with a fix for that. I think that drilling (with a 1mm drill bit) the eject & sync buttons, bening a wire to resemble and elongated Z and glueing in place should do it. Will experiment this week if I get time...
Post by: thepwnage on March 17, 2008, 01:53:00 PM
Post by: 8MM on March 22, 2008, 03:16:00 AM
I then placed it into the dryer on hot for about 15 minutes.
It's freaky but my rrod problems seemed to have 'Vanished' also.
Post by: narc7 on March 22, 2008, 09:34:00 PM
Post by: Bandit5317 on March 23, 2008, 12:40:00 PM
QUOTE(burnmaster @ Mar 23 2008, 12:41 PM)
I used a propane torch to fix mine...... leave the heatsink (just snug) on "bolts mounted through board"
supported board on each side ..raised up high enough to get torch on bottom side of board....
i heated the gpu heatsink really hot with propane tourch, so that heat would transfer through to gpu...
then i ran the blue flame over the bottom of the gpu a couple quick times (just within the 4 heatsink bolts)
let it air cool about 10 min. and then fan cooled the heatsink for a few min.
powered it on and works great...
been working for 2 months without a problem....
I had thought about oven cooking a long time ago, but was worried about the caps and plastic...
decided it was better to isolate heat to just the problem area "gpu"
i built a ugly ass plexiglass case to keep it cool and it does it job nicely (ugly as hell though)...
got a fan mounted down at each heatsink, and 2 facing up through drilled vent holes at bottom of board to help push away heat.... one exhaust fan in top of case pushing heat out, and the 2 factory fans pushing heat out the back...also got 2 heatsinks on ram chips on underside of board...
total of 7 fans in my box....(5 of which is run from external 12 volt supply).... surprisingly, not much louder than original 360
Wow, 2 months. That's pretty impressive. The torch probably actually made the solder joints hot enough to melt and reflow. I'll keep that in mind next time I get my hands on a 3RLOD console and the x-clamp replacement or heatgun won't do it.
Post by: darkmethodz on March 24, 2008, 12:30:00 AM
Post by: vb_encryption_vb on March 24, 2008, 08:23:00 AM
Post by: Pnt.sharma on March 27, 2008, 11:10:00 AM
Post by: luminous on March 29, 2008, 08:23:00 AM
I have 2 360s here which i`ve tried everything with to no avail but have at least got them to redlight(when they seemed dead before).Tried 450 for 10 mins with them twice but still refuse to work tho.
The plastic parts are very vulnerable at this sort of temp,even while protected with foil,sata connector nearly came off one of them.
I`m thinking of trying without heatsinks attached,paste thoroughly cleaned off.
I`d heatgunned one of these before according to instructions with a gun set at 300,and the solder loosened cpu solder it actually moved chip slightly so am thinking possibly longer time at lower heat,quick blast at higher temp but i am concerned about plastic components/capacitors.
Any ideas/opinions?
Cheers
Post by: Pnt.sharma on March 29, 2008, 10:31:00 AM
Post by: Eddie_the_Hated on March 29, 2008, 02:32:00 PM
Post by: sed1356 on March 30, 2008, 04:47:00 PM
So I wrap most of the motherboard in foil to try and protect plastic bit and capacitors, and whack it in the oven for 15 minutes at 230C (about 450F). It smoked a little (only a very little) and some of the capacitors were bulging a little, no real damage. I had a hard time plugging the power cord back in again. It took a few attempts and a bit of force but it went in eventually.
Finally... the result? Well, much to my surprise it bloody well works. I'm impressed. It just seems wrong but I'm not complaining. I don't know how long it will last, but considering it wasn't working at all... every extra day is a bonus.
Thanks to all the pioneers who went before me.
Sed1356.
Post by: mk500 on April 15, 2008, 03:05:00 AM
Well, mine gave up the ghost after 4.5 months. It had been working perfectly all this time. I happened to finally get some time to play Halo 3 solo game, so I was all the way to the last level when it froze on me. This is the first freeze since baking. After a reboot it froze again on the last level. I finally shut it down overnight.
Today I powered it up, and RROD. 4.5 months is not too shabby for a machine that I had tried everything else on. However, I want a working 360 again. I guess it's time to bake a second time. My worry is that the caps won't be able to take a second baking. I'll try to wrap them this time.
Can anyone who has replaced caps give me advice/part numbers? Should I go ahead and purchase replacement parts now, and just try to replace every one that looks damaged after the bake?
Post by: chickenmon on April 19, 2008, 09:01:00 PM
After doin the 12 penny trick and having that work for about 3 or 4 months I got the rrod then I did the xclamp and got about a month and the problems are back. I did my own version of the baking today at 450f preheated for 7 minutes with all caps and plastic wrapped in foil. I left the heatsinks on and baked upside down with the heatsinks facing the pan. It smelled like like fresh solder or that new electronic smell you sometimes get when you open a new motherboard box kinda peppery but a good smell. I pulled it out after the cheese was melted and let sit 5 min before serving. Seriously pulled it out after 7 min and let it cool down about 15. Plugged everything back in and booted up first time and Ive been playing on it last couple hours with no problems. Non of my caps swelled or busted or leaked they all look normal no plastic melted everything appears normal so maybe 10 min is to long. I will update if it fails again.
Post by: brandogg on April 19, 2008, 09:45:00 PM
Post by: mk500 on April 21, 2008, 09:39:00 PM
QUOTE(brandogg @ Apr 19 2008, 09:21 PM)
You shouldn't have left the heatsinks on...oh, and you shouldn't put your 360 in an oven either.
I've baked 2 360's now. I strip it down to the motherboard, but DO leave the heatsyncs on.
Post by: SonicPower on April 23, 2008, 11:10:00 AM
Post by: luminous on April 23, 2008, 04:55:00 PM
Despite wrapping blue plastic buttons in foil prior to toasting they`ve all still melted a bit and eject won`t work although sync does.
Is there a fix for this???
its a pity we don`t get option to eject disc when a game is in although if there is no disc in drive it can eject.Thought of doing this manual eject is a pain.Would an xbox 360 remote work?Cheers
Al
@sonicpower just use baking tray(cookie sheet you call it?).I`d be tempted to put in mobo on its own but with that heat i think things would fall off
Post by: cheezwiz789 on April 23, 2008, 05:02:00 PM
Post by: mk500 on April 23, 2008, 05:09:00 PM
QUOTE(cheezwiz789 @ Apr 23 2008, 04:38 PM)
so... if I was going to try this crazy betty crocker trick, should I bake it right side up like almost everyone else, or upside down like chickenmon?
I've done both of mine successfully right side up. I also used a cookie sheet with aluminum foil under where the motherboard actually sits (wrapped up around the edges of the cookie sheet to make sure it doesn't move. I also have NOT had any plastic pieces melt, even though I haven't wrapped anything in foil. See my first post for the timings/temps I used.
Biggest advice: make sure you do the larger bolt clamp fix first, and then 12v cooling also. Just baking won't permanently fix the overheating problem. I tried to go wimpy on my second bake and left the cooling alone, and it went right back to RROD. After fully modifying the cooling system as well, it works great.
Post by: cheezwiz789 on April 23, 2008, 05:29:00 PM
Post by: luminous on April 23, 2008, 05:35:00 PM
Answer would be great ta please
Post by: chickenmon on April 23, 2008, 07:26:00 PM
Post by: luminous on April 24, 2008, 06:22:00 AM
Post by: SonicPower on April 24, 2008, 12:31:00 PM
Does this stuff smoke enough to set off the fire alarm?
That would be bad news bears if that happened.
Post by: SonicPower on April 24, 2008, 04:23:00 PM
5 minutes @ 400.
7 minutes @ 450.
It's working much better now, but now after 20 minutes, the 360 freezes.
I've done the fan shroud mod, so should I try rebaking it again?
Post by: luminous on April 25, 2008, 06:17:00 AM
Post by: SonicPower on April 25, 2008, 11:39:00 AM
(1) I did the X-clamp fix which lasted me an year.
(2) Penny stacks of 1, 2, or 3 don't do anything, or give me 0022 errors.
(3) The thermal paste I use is MX-2, which is superior than AS-5 since it doesn't degrade and lasts about 8 years.
So, I'm going to rebake this again for 10 minutes @ 450.
Post by: chickenmon on April 26, 2008, 12:29:00 PM
Post by: cheezwiz789 on April 26, 2008, 01:29:00 PM
capacitors and plastic parts covered in foil.
I still get the 0022 error.
oh well...
Post by: chickenmon on April 26, 2008, 07:44:00 PM
Post by: SonicPower on April 26, 2008, 10:01:00 PM
QUOTE(chickenmon @ Apr 26 2008, 09:20 PM)
Yeah I left the heaksink on and baked it upside down heatsinks facing down on a cookie sheet. Have you done the xclamp replacment yet? Ive got mine torqued down pretty tight and I leave the heatsinks on when I bake. 450 for 10 min is what I did the second time and I have been playing it all day without any lockups or problems. One side note is I dont have any screws holding the board to the chasis so its kind of floating in there so theres no extra stress or warping around the xclamps.
Sigh.
I have done the X-Clamp replacements as of one year ago. I wrote this on the last page.
This will be my third bake. My second bake actually made the problem worse. Went from 20 minutes to play time to 3.
Post by: Skinleech on April 30, 2008, 07:21:00 AM
Both boxes I've fixed have had the RBJTech V3 X-clamps replacement, with AS5 on the GPU/CPU. They've both been put on tinfoil, then onto the baking sheet, right side up.
I'll post back results as and hwn I have them. I'd only had GTA4 on for 10 mins before it threw in the towel!
Post by: mk500 on May 02, 2008, 03:31:00 AM
My original one lasted for 4.5 months perfectly. Not a single lockup or anything during that time. Then it suddenly locked up and shortly went back to RROD. Note that the day this happened was an exceptionally hot day (probably 75 in my gaming room vs normal 65), and I was playing Halo 3. Today I baked it the second time, and it seems to be working perfectly again. I modified my procedure a little bit this time:
1) strip down to ONLY motherboard, then mount heatsyncs with bolts directly to the motherboard (make sure you have to correct washer count so that you aren't warping the board
2) wrapped aluminum foil around all the large capacitors on the board, as those were the ones that had leaked goo the last time (this worked really well to prevent the goo/damage. Thanks for that idea)
3) Line cookie sheet with aluminum foil and place motherboard on foil (right side up). It will be sitting on the 8 screws for the heatsyncs. There should be 4 washers on the underside of each, so this keeps it a bit off the foil.
4) preheat oven to 455
5) insert everything into oven for 10 minutes
6) remove and cool for 20 minutes
7) test everything on workbench, if all is well...
8) remove heatsyncs and re-install everything in case, used ArctiClean process and applied AS5 thermal compound this time
Tonight I played a few hours of Halo 3 and GTA IV without any lockups or problems at all. I am a VERY happy camper again.
As others have noted, make sure you have done the X-Clamp replacement and 12v fan mod in addition to this fix, or it will likely not stick. You need to keep the board mounted steady (the x-clamps warp the board) and you need to keep it as cool as possible (12v mod does this). I run my 12v mod at about 9v via a regular PC fan controller. This keeps the sound from being crazy, but cools MUCH better than stock. I also changed from using a wire soldered onto the motherboard to pulling 12v from the DVD cable. This is a much easier and more solid connection.
Note: I bought a second dead 360 to try the bake on. With that unit I didn't have as good of luck. The bake immediately fixed the RROD, and I can use the menus and watch videos perfectly. However, as soon as I start any game with some graphics going on, it locks up with no errors whatsoever. My guess is that this unit has some real damage to the GPU or memory. However, I will try to bake it a second time for good measure. Otherwise I guess I will end up selling it for parts (Samsung drive).
Post by: Skinleech on May 02, 2008, 07:32:00 AM
The fans were loud, but got a couple of hour long sessions on GTA done. Let's see how long it lasts now...
Post by: chickenmon on May 02, 2008, 10:05:00 PM
Post by: mk500 on May 03, 2008, 06:47:00 PM
QUOTE(chickenmon @ May 2 2008, 09:41 PM)
I dont think there is any magic to this 360 resurection...The 12v mod in my mind is useless as you can tell when the 360 overheats as the fans rev up like a jet engine...I think all the small details really just hinder people from trying this and every machine is going to be different....I would say the heatgun is probably the most effective and safe but I dont have one and dont feel like buying one so I choose the oven method...Im sure this is very damaging to the 360 but its on its last legs and untill it gives up the ghost completly...
No offense please, but I have to respectfully disagree with the above comments. The original defect we are fixing has to do with connections breaking due to temperature fluctuations, which cause the board to warp slightly and break connections. By keeping a steady, cool temperature; the 360 is likely to remain reliable far longer. The 12v fan mod is the easiest and cheapest way to do this (as it only really requires cutting/splicing a couple wires. As proof of this, I would submit my first bake: Totally bad board which I had tried every other fix on. Bake+12v cooling gave me 4.5 months of regular use with zero lockups. It seems from your posts, unless I'm missing something, that you are only getting a few days from each bake. This may be from inadequate cooling.
As far as the heatgun, the problem with this approach is that you have to be extremely precise on two counts:
1) managing the temperature of the gun on your target area (very hard when blowing air around)
2) properly targeting the problem area (do we even know which ball sockets are broken?)
The bake method uses a steady temperature across the whole board, so you are sure to be hitting the problem spots. Also, everyone has an oven :-)
While I agree that the bake method should only be tried as a "last resort", I think it has the potential of being a pretty good fix. Since there are likely many thousands of us out there with "last resorts" machines, we need a solution. If we can perfect this method to maximize solder re-flow and minimize damage to other components (e.g. aluminum foil shielding)-- this is likely the very best fix for RROD available at this time (short of having a commercial company re-ball the chips; which is prohibitively expensive).
So far I have put about 10 hours of play time on my second bake, and the machine has functioned perfectly. I am throwing the hardest games at it: Halo 3, GTA IV, Forza 2, etc.
I strongly believe the only reason I needed a second bake after 4.5 months was the one day I played in a room with unusually hot ambient temps. It's too much of a coincidence that it died that day. I think that if we could come up with an even better cooling solution (larger heatsyncs, water cooling, or whatever) plus the bake, we may have something that could give us fixes that could last a year or more. I plan on continuing to play with this method in my free time with 360s that others have "tried everything else on". We'll see where it goes.
Post by: chickenmon on May 03, 2008, 08:17:00 PM
QUOTE(mk500 @ May 4 2008, 02:23 AM)
No offense please, but I have to respectfully disagree with the above comments. The original defect we are fixing has to do with connections breaking due to temperature fluctuations, which cause the board to warp slightly and break connections. By keeping a steady, cool temperature; the 360 is likely to remain reliable far longer. The 12v fan mod is the easiest and cheapest way to do this (as it only really requires cutting/splicing a couple wires. As proof of this, I would submit my first bake: Totally bad board which I had tried every other fix on. Bake+12v cooling gave me 4.5 months of regular use with zero lockups. It seems from your posts, unless I'm missing something, that you are only getting a few days from each bake. This may be from inadequate cooling.
As far as the heatgun, the problem with this approach is that you have to be extremely precise on two counts:
1) managing the temperature of the gun on your target area (very hard when blowing air around)
2) properly targeting the problem area (do we even know which ball sockets are broken?)
The bake method uses a steady temperature across the whole board, so you are sure to be hitting the problem spots. Also, everyone has an oven :-)
While I agree that the bake method should only be tried as a "last resort", I think it has the potential of being a pretty good fix. Since there are likely many thousands of us out there with "last resorts" machines, we need a solution. If we can perfect this method to maximize solder re-flow and minimize damage to other components (e.g. aluminum foil shielding)-- this is likely the very best fix for RROD available at this time (short of having a commercial company re-ball the chips; which is prohibitively expensive).
So far I have put about 10 hours of play time on my second bake, and the machine has functioned perfectly. I am throwing the hardest games at it: Halo 3, GTA IV, Forza 2, etc.
I strongly believe the only reason I needed a second bake after 4.5 months was the one day I played in a room with unusually hot ambient temps. It's too much of a coincidence that it died that day. I think that if we could come up with an even better cooling solution (larger heatsyncs, water cooling, or whatever) plus the bake, we may have something that could give us fixes that could last a year or more. I plan on continuing to play with this method in my free time with 360s that others have "tried everything else on". We'll see where it goes.
No offense taken but the 360 gpu or cpu has internal temp diodes that will regulate the 360 fan. If they get to hot it will rev up the fan speed to cool. Its as simple as that. A properly mounted heatsink should never allow the temps to get high enough to trigger the fans in 12volt mode. As long as ambient temp is not to high.
Post by: mk500 on May 04, 2008, 03:59:00 AM
QUOTE(chickenmon @ May 3 2008, 07:53 PM)
No offense taken but the 360 gpu or cpu has internal temp diodes that will regulate the 360 fan. If they get to hot it will rev up the fan speed to cool. Its as simple as that. A properly mounted heatsink should never allow the temps to get high enough to trigger the fans in 12volt mode. As long as ambient temp is not to high.
If the temp diode says "we need maximum cooling", it will put out the full 5v to the fans, right? My fans are running at about 8-9v all the time. With fans, voltage = speed. This is over 50% faster than the maximum speed they would run stock. The end result is that the heatsyncs are always just warm to the touch. With stock, even at max speed the heatsyncs are quite hot when the system is being pushed.
The flaw in the design is that Microsoft figured it was OK to run the CPU/GPU a bit hot, as they can handle it (it's within spec, I'm sure). They didn't take into account what that heating/cooling would do to the poorly designed board/solder joints.
Post by: chickenmon on May 24, 2008, 05:55:00 PM
Post by: Wilhelm_I on May 24, 2008, 07:38:00 PM
Check out a tutorial that I made it shows how to isolate the components that easily get damaged by the heat(like melting/blowing caps) this will save you some time replacing blown up caps.
If you have a heatgun first go for that before doing the oventrick...
Here is the link http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=651407
Post by: evolution 2k8 on May 25, 2008, 12:19:00 AM
but still havent tried i will give ten mins till i can be arsed to turn on and see also do you think if i get thermal paste and do the x-clap trick it will do better
Post by: Wilhelm_I on May 25, 2008, 04:33:00 AM
QUOTE(evolution 2k8 @ May 25 2008, 07:41 AM)
ok i did your trick havent tried it yet still cooling down but i have two pictures for you to view of the mb in the oven at gas mark 4=350f
http://i280.photobuc...24/DSC00137.jpg
http://i280.photobuc...24/DSC00138.jpg
ah mate you have to take the heatsinks off otherwise the pressure will flatten the solder balls under the CPU/GPU to a big plate and you will have to reball both to get it working again. You got really lucky because you only heated it up to 350°F, the metling point of the solder is 424°F....
If you really want to reflow it then you have to set the oven up for at least 430°F but as I said make sure you isolate it properly then...
Post by: luminous on July 11, 2008, 08:16:00 PM
.So i have to buy a new one,is these new arcades best ones to go for? (with falcon mobo)
Post by: e74-s*** on August 12, 2008, 03:41:00 PM
Post by: Tribes11 on October 03, 2008, 02:45:00 PM
Wish me luck, and if it works I come here to say: HEY IT WORKS THANKS A LOT!!!11!11!11!1ELEVEN11!
Post by: adrenaline_X on October 06, 2008, 02:43:00 PM
QUOTE(Tribes11 @ Oct 3 2008, 04:21 PM)
Well, i'm going to try this, i got the error 0002, it seems to be something related to CPU or Network Interface Problem, this is the last thing i'm going to do, I just want it to work until christmas when I will buy another XBOX 360... oh and by the way, i'm not with X-Clamp mod, and I don't think if I do this before baking will fix my problem, since the console doesn't even START (not even the coolers, and the console will not heat up since it doesn't generate heat) so speaking frankly I will do this baking method without x-clamp and on a XBOX 360 with error 0002 (previously it was 0102, and I have tried everything since one day it come out with this 0002 error) so this is my last attempt on this console, since I've got nothing to lose i'm going to try this on a toaster oven...
Wish me luck, and if it works I come here to say: HEY IT WORKS THANKS A LOT!!!11!11!11!1ELEVEN11!
Well I'll be darned
I had no idea this thread was still going.I bought an arcade after my last oven attempt.. Seeing as I was drunk when I did it the last oven attempt, probably didn't help the situation.
I'm about to try it again with two dead ones that I have now.
Glad to see my idea helped a few people out. I will be using tin foil this time.
Post by: adrenaline_X on October 06, 2008, 03:26:00 PM
QUOTE(Wilhelm_I @ May 24 2008, 09:14 PM)
Using a heatgun will also reflow the solder but in addition you can direct the heat to the problem area only.
Check out a tutorial that I made it shows how to isolate the components that easily get damaged by the heat(like melting/blowing caps) this will save you some time replacing blown up caps.
If you have a heatgun first go for that before doing the oventrick...
Here is the link http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=651407
I disagree with your post.
Heating only a small portion of the board is a bad idea.. I did alot of reading before i came up with this wacked idea... In order to re-ball anything, you must bring up the temperature of the board that you are working on close to the melting point of the solder. Simply applying heat to the chip is not going to do it.. The heat will be transferred to the board and dissipate the heat that you are trying to use to re-flow the solder..
The heat gun is going to make a mess.
If can heat the motherboard to 450 and then apply 475 f to the chip itself then that is much closer to the BGA chip application.
A heat gun is bunk but may be worth trying before this.
That being said.. I took a completely dead 360 (x-clamp replacement, x-clamp replacement with shims, x-clamp overheating all finally failed) and made it work again for about 4 hours a day for well over a month.
I'm going to start testing my oven theory again now that i have two dead 360s.. I have my falcon arcade as my main console but need the 2nd and third for media extenders
Post by: Tribes11 on November 21, 2008, 08:28:00 AM
QUOTE(adrenaline_X @ Oct 6 2008, 06:19 PM)
Well I'll be darned
I had no idea this thread was still going.I bought an arcade after my last oven attempt.. Seeing as I was drunk when I did it the last oven attempt, probably didn't help the situation.
I'm about to try it again with two dead ones that I have now.
Glad to see my idea helped a few people out. I will be using tin foil this time.
Hum, i've tried it on a Toaster Oven as I've said, but I think it don't have the heat necessary to do some melt on solders... well now i'm going to try on a Oven (yes on a oven powered by gas, the same we use here to bake cakes and pies, maybe it will work? What you guys think? I don't know, I really want to play XBOX360 but it is not working anymore and I can't afford a new one RIGHT NOW... so i'll try this again... what you have to say for me? Should I try on my Oven since my toaster oven doesn't worked?
Post by: rxpc on November 22, 2008, 01:30:00 AM
I have a couple of NON-baked MB's that I don't have keys for. Was saving them in case I needed any of the components off them. They were RROD boards and may already have missing components.
If your interested, PM me, I won't be taking components off the board,
I will only part with the whole MB.
Post by: Tribes11 on December 12, 2008, 10:24:00 AM
QUOTE(Tribes11 @ Nov 21 2008, 01:04 PM)
Hum, i've tried it on a Toaster Oven as I've said, but I think it don't have the heat necessary to do some melt on solders... well now i'm going to try on a Oven (yes on a oven powered by gas, the same we use here to bake cakes and pies, maybe it will work? What you guys think? I don't know, I really want to play XBOX360 but it is not working anymore and I can't afford a new one RIGHT NOW... so i'll try this again... what you have to say for me? Should I try on my Oven since my toaster oven doesn't worked?
LOl, tried again, baked it too much I guess... now it didn't even turn on... I've tried X-Clamp MOD to try to make it work again... no sucess... as you can see, my attempt didn't worked. Now i'll have to buy a new xbox 360... I will try a Arcade one cause i have HDD and stuff from my older premium... and now with the new Jasper board on arcades I will give it a chance... Hope it works...
Post by: Lugnut on December 12, 2008, 06:56:00 PM