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[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(cylent @ Aug 1 2008, 10:45 PM)

hi.

i assume this is the new tutorial bosnia has been telling me about? if so it looks great.

i have one question to start off with.

in step 7 of the tutorial you said:

now i assume the metal washer will help transfer the heat from the ram chip to the GPU heatsink .. correct?
i did see the picture you put up and it does have the washers on the ram chips but for some reason this is simply not sinking in my head and its just giving me a headache.
also this will cause about 10% or so more heat for the gpu heatsink.  no?

now for the second part. the small credit card snips .. i laughed when i saw this.. not  bad laught but a laugh like oh my god is this safe to do?

i guess tape is better than glue

overall. wonderful tutorial.

by the way can you make a video and put it on youtube of this?
if not i am thinking of doing one. full credit goes to you of course for this wonderful tutorial!

great job, Wilhelm_I

Ye it will transfer the heat an in addition it will also put the RAM bricks under pressure so there is a 25% percentage you are preventing/fixing an 0110

Actually, I dont think I am making a video of it, it was already a pain in the arse taking all the pictures
It would be pretty cool of you if you would do that
Maybe you will finally fix your first 360 succesfully with this method lol

QUOTE(M2X @ Aug 1 2008, 10:55 PM)

Nice tutorial man.  
I've been using RBJTech's MKI method for some time now and it's been working flawlessly.
Your method is a great improvement over the previous methods.  
As you may already know MKI prevents flexing (because it uses a washer+deep nut under the board).
It's been for sometime that guys here give me their boxes to do the x-clamp replacement for them and they pay me for my service. I would like the job done in the very best way. That's the reason I go for the difficault and time consuming MKI method. Some of these boxes were already repaired with Lawdawg's method but RRoDed again after about a month.
About a month ago I did my first fix (for my own box) and it's been working great with no single issue.

So that's the reason I want to use a hybrid of yours and RBJTech's method.
This even pressure on the chip is a nice idea. I bet it reduces the time I spend for playing with the tension of the screws.
So here I've got some questions:
1) How thick is the credit/phone card? You don't wanna know how thick they are in my country!  
2) That taping thing really bugs me. Cause it gets dirty and dusty over time and if some day someone wants to redo the job it would be difficault removing those tapes. Is there any other thing we could do?
3) How long have the boxes you fixed with this method worked for you?
4) What if I use a shim? Cause some boxes are just retard    and they really need a shim to work. How should I apply even pressure on the chip?
5) Why using 2mm x 2mm pieces of the card? Why not using a 2mm x length/width of the chip so that the whole sides of the chip gets even pressure? This way a single drop of the glue would suffice and they sit in their places with the heatsink on top of them.
Was there a specific reason that you used small pieces?  
6) Any results for combining this method with RBJTech's rather than Lawdawg's? Just curious...  
That's it for now.
Again thanks for doing the community a service and finding new fixes.
Cheers!  

Ye thats kind of what I experienced as well, I only used Lawdawgs before and I got similar results as I said earlier...
I have never tried RBJTechs because I have been using this one succesfully so I didnt even have to look into that.

1) Well it is pretty difficult to measure but I just put a washer beside it and as it is a little bit thinner it looks like ~0.8mm to me, my VISA card has got the same height as the one I have been using as well.
2) Thats the reason why I used "Tesa" tape, it is transparent and doesnt leave any residue when you remove it(dont know how you call it over there but Tesa is the company that makes this kind of tape)
3) So far I cannot tell how long it will work but as I said, I have been using it for 5 months and I fixed about 15 xboxes with it and none has gone back to the ROD since then, not even the 0022s that have been a pain in the arse with Lawdawgs(had one that broke like 3 times again within a couple of days(might also have been the heatgunning though)
4) Hmmm I never had to use a shim before so I guess you will have to find a way to increase the height of the credit card pieces, maybe you can cut pieces out of the shim and put them on top of the credit card pieces
5) There is only one specific reason for that besides that bigger squares wouldnt fit anymore. There are also  resistors in the way and other things, for example the second smaller die of the GPU so you couldnt make it even.
Increasing the size of the credit card pieces could be a good idea though because it would provide even more even pressure to the chip, if you do it right...
6) As I said I never tried RBJTechs but it might improve this one even more so it would be nice if you could try it

QUOTE(card9 @ Aug 1 2008, 11:15 PM)

Quote
"Ye thats why you have to use credit card pieces they have got the perfect height, they are just slightly lower that the die so it has good contact with the heatsink..."

This statement seems to be contradictory, if the credit card pieces are lower than the dies how are they applying pressure? It would imply your warping the BGA to cause them to move up into contact with the heatsink.  Maybe I'm not reading this right.  

The Heatsink always slightly warps when you tighten the screws, if this would not be true the second die of the GPU would cause every 360 to overheat because it is like 0.2mm lower than the main one as well...
Thats the reason why the heatsink puts them under pressure...

[cylent]

quick question.

for a newly bought system (elite falcon) would you recommend i do this modification OR play the hell out of it and do this IF it breaks?

[card9]

Let me get this straight the aluminum heatsink warps and the resin motherboard stays flat?
Unless the physical properties of each have done a 360 and the motherboard is stronger than the heatsink I seriously doubt that.
But perhaps you know more about this than I.

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(cylent @ Aug 2 2008, 12:09 AM)

quick question.

for a newly bought system (elite falcon) would you recommend i do this modification OR play the hell out of it and do this IF it breaks?

If you do it then before turning on even once so that you really got a virgin 360 with 100% intact solder balls(well a 100% is impossible thanks to the x-clamps, I know but it is as close as possible...)
The earlier you do it the better otherwise you risk doing more damage to it than good...
I have done it to my own as well but like 6 months after buying it lol
Have used lawdawgs and the thing showed me the first 0102 like 2 months ago.
I opened it up but since I had no time I only adjusted the tightness of the screws which didnt work out(drilled holes through the case so it was easy)
So I was pissed and went out.
The next day it worked again.
Since then it didnt freeze anymore and neither show the ROD which is still surprising me...
I really hope it stays like that because I got a lot of LEDs in there and soldered quite couple of wires to the mainboard(guess now you understand why I am not willed to fix it lol)
It is an early 2006er 360 so I am kind of proud that it lasted 2 years already

In case you dont want to mod the 360 just stick to your warranty though it is the best preventive measure against the ROD since they will repair it for you...

[cylent]

QUOTE(Wilhelm_I @ Aug 2 2008, 02:20 AM)

If you do it then before turning on even once so that you really got a virgin 360 with 100% intact solder balls(well a 100% is impossible thanks to the x-clamps, I know but it is as close as possible...)
The earlier you do it the better otherwise you risk doing more damage to it than good...
I have done it to my own as well but like 6 months after buying it lol
Have used lawdawgs and the thing showed me the first 0102 like 2 months ago.
I opened it up but since I had no time I only adjusted the tightness of the screws which didnt work out(drilled holes through the case so it was easy)
So I was pissed and went out.
The next day it worked again.
Since then it didnt freeze anymore and neither show the ROD which is still surprising me...
I really hope it stays like that because I got a lot of LEDs in there and soldered quite couple of wires to the mainboard(guess now you understand why I am not willed to fix it lol)
It is an early 2006er 360 so I am kind of proud that it lasted 2 years already

In case you dont want to mod the 360 just stick to your warranty though it is the best preventive measure against the ROD since they will repair it for you...
 

there aint exactly no warranty sticker anymore cause i ripped it off to update the drive firmware. i am currently in baghdad and there are 0 original games. its all copies sold for $2 dollars.

off topic  -- ((i'll be honest. if i wanted to buy original games for $60+ a pop i would have gone with the PS3. no hell like the xbox hell.))

the system has been on a few times. its not a virgin anymore.

i am a bit hesitant since i shelled out a pretty dollar (cost me about $570) and i am even afraid to even play any games on it considering my luck with the last two boards (but those were used and repaired anyways so i guess i shouldnt be that freaked out).

i can do everything just fine but i am honestly not comfortable with the credit card snippets. they are (1) very hard to cut out  and (2) make me feel like they are gonna make the cpu "jump up in the center"

also, what about raising the fan power to 12v?




This post has been edited by cylent: Aug 1 2008, 10:56 PM

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(cylent @ Aug 2 2008, 12:30 AM)

there aint exactly no warranty sticker anymore cause i ripped it off to update the drive firmware. i am currently in baghdad and there are 0 original games. its all copies sold for $2 dollars.

off topic  -- ((i'll be honest. if i wanted to buy original games for $60+ a pop i would have gone with the PS3. no hell like the xbox hell.))

the system has been on a few times. its not a virgin anymore.

Hmm
I am sorry but I guess you just digged yourself a grave dude...
If you had read the rules you would know that piracy is clearly against xbox-scene's rules and you can get banned for it.
You better pray that the moderator will only suspend you for a couple of days...
The fact that there is no place where you can buy originals might save you from the ban but in general there is zero tolerance for this topic...

[cylent]

QUOTE(Wilhelm_I @ Aug 2 2008, 03:02 AM)

Hmm
I am sorry but I guess you just digged yourself a grave dude...
If you had read the rules you would know that piracy is clearly against xbox-scene's rules and you can get banned for it.
You better pray that the moderator will only suspend you for a couple of days...
The fact that there is no place where you can buy originals might save you from the ban but in general there is zero tolerance for this topic...

ya well i know what i typed so i am not exactly freaking out here cause there really aint no place you can buy originals here! simply non-existant.  (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)


This post has been edited by cylent: Aug 1 2008, 11:30 PM

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(cylent @ Aug 2 2008, 01:04 AM)

ya well i know what i typed so i am not exactly freaking out here cause there really aint no place you can buy originals here! simply non-existant.  

Stays piracy though
60$ is kind of cheap though where I am we pay around a 100$ for a game

[HackerSupreme]

QUOTE(Wilhelm_I @ Aug 1 2008, 08:07 PM)

Stays piracy though
60$ is kind of cheap though where I am we pay around a 100$ for a game

You should download the games and send the companies 60 bucks.

Just kidding!

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(HackerSupreme @ Aug 2 2008, 04:17 AM)

You should download the games and send the companies 60 bucks.

Just kidding!

Would be quite funny when they get the check and a notice, I just downloaded your game and it is great!

PS: It is just a joke, I get my games legally...

[M2X]

QUOTE(Wilhelm_I @ Aug 2 2008, 01:24 AM)

Ye thats kind of what I experienced as well, I only used Lawdawgs before and I got similar results as I said earlier...
I have never tried RBJTechs because I have been using this one succesfully so I didnt even have to look into that.

1) Well it is pretty difficult to measure but I just put a washer beside it and as it is a little bit thinner it looks like ~0.8mm to me, my VISA card has got the same height as the one I have been using as well.
2) Thats the reason why I used "Tesa" tape, it is transparent and doesnt leave any residue when you remove it(dont know how you call it over there but Tesa is the company that makes this kind of tape)
3) So far I cannot tell how long it will work but as I said, I have been using it for 5 months and I fixed about 15 xboxes with it and none has gone back to the ROD since then, not even the 0022s that have been a pain in the arse with Lawdawgs(had one that broke like 3 times again within a couple of days(might also have been the heatgunning though)
4) Hmmm I never had to use a shim before so I guess you will have to find a way to increase the height of the credit card pieces, maybe you can cut pieces out of the shim and put them on top of the credit card pieces
5) There is only one specific reason for that besides that bigger squares wouldnt fit anymore. There are also  resistors in the way and other things, for example the second smaller die of the GPU so you couldnt make it even.
Increasing the size of the credit card pieces could be a good idea though because it would provide even more even pressure to the chip, if you do it right...
6) As I said I never tried RBJTechs but it might improve this one even more so it would be nice if you could try it

1) Well I assume you could messure the thickness of the card with a caliper (if you have one of course!!)
2) *Sight*! Unfortunately I live in Iran and all of the products here are made from 100% Sh*tty matterials so the tapes leave good traces on the board... . And that's why I want to prevent using them.
3) Now that's some good results. IE if none of the boxes have failed since.
4) There's something else about the shim. It helps pressuring the chip evenly but not the whole chip. Just the area between the main core and the daughter core. Cutting the shim and putting it on the card pieces is not a good idea! It requires even more taping over the board!  
5) Yeah! I like that! Bigger pieces = better and more even pressure on the board. I still think a well messured foam or something will do the trick better. IE first messuring the height of the core then finding a good piece of foam that when it is pressed enough it could shrink to the height of the core and the more it is pressed the higher the pressure it could transfer to the chip.
6) OK! I'll see what I can do... There is another broken XBox which is waiting to be repaired and I'll be getting that within a few days. Still I have to find a card with the correct thickness.

Man there is some problem in all the X-Clamp replacement tutorials. I think we need to put something under the board (under the chip on the other side of the board to be exact) to unflex the board in there too. Cause with these credit card pieces we are flexing the board under the chip a little (because of the pressure) Am I right? Now I think it might have some long term side effects.
Is there anything we could do about it?
Again thanks for your response in advance.
Hope you could improve the fixing methods even more!

@cylent:
WOW! Illegal copies for 2$?! Though here we could easily find original games but you could still get some illegal copies here if you really want for almost 6$! But piracy is not good (though I know that you can't find any originals in there   )

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(M2X @ Aug 2 2008, 02:37 PM)

Man there is some problem in all the X-Clamp replacement tutorials. I think we need to put something under the board (under the chip on the other side of the board to be exact) to unflex the board in there too. Cause with these credit card pieces we are flexing the board under the chip a little (because of the pressure) Am I right? Now I think it might have some long term side effects.
Is there anything we could do about it?
Again thanks for your response in advance.
Hope you could improve the fixing methods even more!

Ye I have thought about this one as well and tried some stuff but I couldnt find something that had the correct thickness for that and as most components under the mainboard have different heights it will still result in some flexing....
If you dont screw it in too tight there is nearly no flexing with the credit card pieces, it is as close to no flexing as you can be.
The pressure is shared up on a bigger area, not only the chip dies...
You just cant eliminate it completely as there is pressure and heat there will always be slight flexing...

[M2X]

QUOTE(Wilhelm_I @ Aug 2 2008, 04:54 PM)

Ye I have thought about this one as well and tried some stuff but I couldnt find something that had the correct thickness for that and as most components under the mainboard have different heights it will still result in some flexing....
If you dont screw it in too tight there is nearly no flexing with the credit card pieces, it is as close to no flexing as you can be.
The pressure is shared up on a bigger area, not only the chip dies...
You just cant eliminate it completely as there is pressure and heat there will always be slight flexing...

I usually don't snug the screws real tight. I do this with MKI method:
First I tight them so I see that the spring washers are crushed flat. Then I usually see some 0020. Then I loosen the screws till I get 0102. Then I loosen them a bit more till I see some green lights! (The weird thing is this has worked for all 3 boxes that I have fixed and I have no idea why it does! Sometimes I hear a ticking noise while loosening the screws) Then I tighten the screws till I see some problems in the screen (freezing, artifacts, etc) then the job's done! I close the box and test it for a few hours to a few days.
So this way I'm kind of sure the board ain't flexing in no way.
But for this purpose a foam will do the trick too i think. But the problem is that underneath the chip the heat will be trapped!  
I don't know what else could do the trick...  

BTW for MKI method, I have never used any overheating, baking or what so ever. I just fixed the box with pressuring on the chip only. Could this be the main reason that most boxes fixed with Lawdawg's fail after a while?
This issue is solved in your method I guess. Cause you are likely fixing the box with pressure rather than the heat. Now tell me this:
Did all of the boxes that you fixed with your own method require overheating AFTER the x-clamp replacement? AFAIK you do the heatgun method before the fix too so it just reflows bad connections.
Also one other question:
Aside from the 0022 errors, what are some of the other errors that you had with previously semi-fixed boxes? I mean those that you fixed only with Lawdawg's? And which step in your tutorial prevents them?

Sorry that I'm asking so many questions but the thing is, I would really like to do a hybrid of yours and RBJTech's method and I want to prevent other errors to show up and see the progress with the first (for example 0102) error.  

[gamerbou]

awesome...cooll

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(M2X @ Aug 2 2008, 07:35 PM)

I usually don't snug the screws real tight. I do this with MKI method:
First I tight them so I see that the spring washers are crushed flat. Then I usually see some 0020. Then I loosen the screws till I get 0102. Then I loosen them a bit more till I see some green lights! (The weird thing is this has worked for all 3 boxes that I have fixed and I have no idea why it does! Sometimes I hear a ticking noise while loosening the screws) Then I tighten the screws till I see some problems in the screen (freezing, artifacts, etc) then the job's done! I close the box and test it for a few hours to a few days.
So this way I'm kind of sure the board ain't flexing in no way.
But for this purpose a foam will do the trick too i think. But the problem is that underneath the chip the heat will be trapped!  
I don't know what else could do the trick...  

BTW for MKI method, I have never used any overheating, baking or what so ever. I just fixed the box with pressuring on the chip only. Could this be the main reason that most boxes fixed with Lawdawg's fail after a while?
This issue is solved in your method I guess. Cause you are likely fixing the box with pressure rather than the heat. Now tell me this:
Did all of the boxes that you fixed with your own method require overheating AFTER the x-clamp replacement? AFAIK you do the heatgun method before the fix too so it just reflows bad connections.
Also one other question:
Aside from the 0022 errors, what are some of the other errors that you had with previously semi-fixed boxes? I mean those that you fixed only with Lawdawg's? And which step in your tutorial prevents them?

Sorry that I'm asking so many questions but the thing is, I would really like to do a hybrid of yours and RBJTech's method and I want to prevent other errors to show up and see the progress with the first (for example 0102) error.  

I could only get the 0022 I had back then to work with overheating if I remember right but I didnt have to use it that often, sometimes did when the RODs returned I guess.
The overheating is the most stupid thing you can do in my opinion, it is just a bandaid if it doesnt work because of the pressure already this will only make it work temporarily.
If you think you have to overheat it then use a heatgun and reflow the solder properly.

I never used overheating with my method anymore.
If it is a 360 that has been attempted to be fixed like on Ebay(it is unbelievable what people tried to fix it, I even had one that was full of oil, like some thick black stuff or like mainboards that were literally burned ), then I usually heatgun it before just to make sure everything is connected properly...
I also do this in general for 360s that already have the X-Clamps replaced because most retards screw it in so tight that the mainboard bends extremely...

I only fixed like 5 360s or so before that(mainly for mates and family), the error codes were just the usual ones like 0020  0102 and 0022.
The reason why 0022s ,E74s(1022), 0021s and E73s(1021) can be fixed better with this method is simple.
These errors are mainly related to the outer solder balls of the GPU and because of the credit card pieces which take the out side of the chip under pressure as well these are also reconnected.
0022 is a bridged solder joint/E74(1022) cold solder joint  under the scaler-chip/GPU traces that lead to it, so the upper part of the GPU.
0021 is a bridged solder joint/E73(1021) cold solder joint  under the Southbridge/GPU traces that lead to it, so the left part of the GPU.

0102 is the one that is the easiest to fix, 0020 can be a bit harder to fix(still easier than the other 002*s though) because the solderballs under the GPU/RAM are shorting out then...