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[throwingks]

1.   I understand that Jesus was born to a Jewish mother. So he was born Jewish. That much makes sense. But, it is said that he knew he was the Messiah at around age 12. Wouldn't that then make him no longer Jewish. People that believe he is the son of God, are Christians (for the most part). For that reason Jesus, Satan, and whoever else are Christian. So doesn't that make Jesus not a Jew, through simple logic? I always hear "Jesus was a Jew", I don't think he was.

and...

2.   Why do Christians for the most part find it perfectly reasonable that Mary had a son without having sex, but most do not believe in aliens? Even though Ezekial alludes to a UFO. Isn't it just as probable that someone gave birth through miraculous conception as it is that we are not alone in the universe?

I am not trying to start fights. I am just trying to understand logic. The most important thing to me is the thought process, behind the conclusions. Not proof of the conclusions.

[Statecowboy]

Wow,

Been a  long time since I got into any of these. Anywho, Puck is completely right about your first question (at least right in the since that that is what I would say).  As far as why some Christians don't believe in aliens and believe in the virgin birth...I would say that at the core of the answer is the bible.  I'm not sure what percentage of Christians hold the bible as sacred and inspired by God, which makes it infallable and truth.  So, with no mention of aliens one can assume that they do not exist, or at least demand a physical proof of their existence.  Vice versa, with the virgin birth, it is explicitly written about by the inspired workd of God, therefor true.  

I am one of those Christians that (attempts) to believe everything in the bible as inspired by God.  I'm not going to lie and tell you that it isn't difficult to fathom someone living in a whale or a virgin giving birth etc.  

BTW, let's try to keep this clean, every former religion topic I saw got turned into insults and rants.

[damam]

@1
Much of the book of Acts deals with this question.  Until the original christians started letting gentiles into the club, they were considered a jewish sect - even by the jewish non believers.  It was not until Paul argued that gentiles should not have to convert to judiasm and follow jewish law, before converting to christianity that the church broke off officially.  I say officially because from that point on the Romans and Jews no longer saw christianity as a jewish sect from that point on.  They saw it as a cult.  Before that point they were protected by Roman law.  It was definitely a bold move by paul, sacrifice safety for the opportunity to gain a larger market share.

So to answer the question Jesus was a jew and certainly was perceived as a jew in his day.  Paul was the one that altered the course of christianity and left judiasm.

@2
ezekial -
People that use ezekial as evidence of UFO's seem to ignore all of the other trips (in the LSD/shroom sense) ezekial went on.  there is just as much evidence that ezekial was on the shroom trip of the melenia (my personal theory) as there is that he saw aliens.  That little piece of "alien" evidence is small, and really does not explain all of the other wacked out visions he had.

I am not saying that aliens dont exist - only that ezekial does not offer the proof your saying it does.

virgin birth
actually puck there are several human virgin births around the world each year.  the most common way of conceiving for a virgin birth is to be "playing" around in the bath tub.  technically no intercourse, but sperm can be slick little fellas and it only takes a slight tear in the hyman . . . Anne landers a while back wrote a column on it saying that on average US hospitals report 8 virgin births yearly across the country.  The bath tub scenario turns out to be the most common cause, but a couple each year go with an unknown causes.  My professors in "Enviromental and Statistical Biology" class also did a lecture on it as well although he did not talk about the bath tub method.  So mary is not all that unique.

there are natural mechanizms that would also allow for a virgin birth.  Mary, for example could have been a mutant.  On a discovery show they put the odds of such a mutation extremely high ( i believe it was in the trillions ) but none the less possible.  She also could have been a chimera which is a lot more likely as chimerism is becoming more detectable and is becoming a lot more common to name another possibility.

But as a christian, I really dont base a lot of my faith on the idea of a virginal birth.  Before converting to christianity i was already aware that it does happen with relative frequency in todays world.  It may have happened to mary but my simple kowledge that she is not the only one takes away the "ooooh awhhhhh" factor.  I believe it played a role in persuading early greeks, but today for me it carries little weight or much of a "leap of faith".  Im not tied up in it, and if we invent a time machine and they produce some porno of mary playing in the hay fields, I am not going to abandon my faith.

[Statecowboy]

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 30 2006, 12:41 PM)

Ummmm real quickly StateCowboy....are you saying that Aliens cannot exist because the bible does not mention aliens?  That seems ridiculous....since the bible doesnt mention cars either....but we now know that they exist....

If you are instead saying that the bible supports virgin birth and not aliens....then the comment makes a little more sense

I think you know what I'm saying.  With no biblical representation or hard scientific facts and evidence, I would say I don't believe in aliens.  However, back to your argument about cars, I see them all the time, therefor I believe they are real.  

I never stated that the bible is the end all be all of what exists.  That's an encyclopedia.  I simply stated that because the bible does not support any discussion on aliens, and I have not seen any myself or any evidence to support them, then I do not believe they exist.  

And Puck, a lot of your arguments are based on the premise that the bible is not a non-fiction book, but yet a novel full of short stories and made up tales.  So it's hard to debate or get one's point across when explaining to you our opinion because seemingly you have already made up your mind that it's not truth.  

You're obviously intelligent, expand your mind to deal with the fact that you may not be able to comprehend everything the universe entails.

[damam]

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 30 2006, 07:13 AM)

Damam

I was referring to the likelihood of virgin birth without the indirect assitance of a man...in other words..self-fertilization...such as the kind found in frogs....

A chimera?  I wasnt aware that they were any more likely to produce independent offspring than anyone else....

chimera can be both male and female and chimeras and can have an odd expression of genitalia that varies widely.  Essentially the equivalent of a brother/sister offspring.  such an offspring would be a rare occurance as well, but far more likely than self fertilization seen in frogs.    

my point only is that virgins do give birth with relative frequency.  people seem to overlook this.  If the story is true, its not like mary was the only one in the history of humans to have experienced it.  However, I seriously believe that it was probably made up to convince the greeks.  They have numerous people (greek equivalent messiah figures) in there history that really did live and claim to be born of a virgin through immaculate conception with a god like being that predate christ.  The jews have no such history.  Then you have paul - the helenized jew - who grew up in turkey and would have been exposed a lot to greek beliefs, history, dealings and teachings and could have easily intoduced the concept.  I dont believe the Jews believe the messiah necessarily has to be born through immaculate conception.  So the only reason for it would be to get gentiles to join who would probably look to there own religions for parallels that rang true.

[damam]

yes
every once in a while I meet one that still does

[Statecowboy]

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Mar 30 2006, 03:50 PM)

Don't alot of hardcore Christians believe UFO's are the anti Christ in disguise....Satin and his cronnies catching some serious G?

I've never heard that, but it's pretty funny!  

[lordvader129]

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Mar 30 2006, 01:50 PM)

Don't alot of hardcore Christians believe UFO's are the anti Christ in disguise....Satin and his cronnies catching some serious G?

yeah, i got into an argument with a guy back in grade school, he said aliens didnt exist, so i showed hima bunch of unexplained UFO pics and asked him what he thought they were, he said demons and i laughed my ass off

[_iffy]

I have a slightly different point of view you might like to hear...

"Jesus was a Jew"
1)The word jew means son of a jew. So jesus was a jew based on his ethnic background.
2)Like any rabi, his preachings and ideas were shared so he would still be considered a man of the jewish faith.

but...
jesus performed miricals (spelling?) and he did claim to be the son of god. At the time the Jewish comunity
didn't agree with this and thats why he was killed. However some jewish people did believe him and started
the roman catholic church (in rome that's were everything became official) This would make him "not jewish"
because his daddy was the guy who was worshiped. He would be a leader not a follower.

"virgin mary"
so many things wrong with this, but this is were "faith" comes into play. Whether or not you want to beleive it.

but...
you have to look at it as when it was written. If mary got knocked up by anyone other than joe, she would have been put to death. Joe says he didn't do her, but mary is obviously prego, so to keep her alive, she was a virgin. Here's were faith comes into play. You could believe that mary was a virgin and god knocked her up. Or you could think that on mary and joeseph's wedding day they did the deed, (which was the custom of the day), and mary was only "labeled" a virgin when the new testiment was written.

This really is the most important thing. Your not 2000 years old. You don't know anyone who's 2000 years old.

If you look now at the way events are recorded, it's all digital. You have satalite links, photography, video,
thousands of independant media. Anything that happens in the world, you know is true. Everyone knows the twin towers are gone (reasons not for this thread), everyone knows russia is no longer comunist. Even hiroshima (spelling) were a nuclear bomb detonated.

2000 years ago, none of this recordable media was availible. Very few people knew how to write. News was delivered by word of mouth. If any of you know the telephone game you know what i'm getting at (purple monkey dishwasher)

Faith is very personal. Organised religion is bullshit. You can read the bible, koran, torah, even the new new testiment from the mormans. It's up to you to decide what you believe.

No one has the right to tell another human being what to believe.


btw i personally look at the bible/koran/torah/buddist scrolls/etc as guides. nothing more.

EDIT: aliens??? wtf

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(throwingks @ Mar 30 2006, 01:08 AM)

1.   I understand that Jesus was born to a Jewish mother. So he was born Jewish. That much makes sense. But, it is said that he knew he was the Messiah at around age 12. Wouldn't that then make him no longer Jewish. People that believe he is the son of God, are Christians (for the most part). For that reason Jesus, Satan, and whoever else are Christian. So doesn't that make Jesus not a Jew, through simple logic? I always hear "Jesus was a Jew", I don't think he was.

and...

2.   Why do Christians for the most part find it perfectly reasonable that Mary had a son without having sex, but most do not believe in aliens? Even though Ezekial alludes to a UFO. Isn't it just as probable that someone gave birth through miraculous conception as it is that we are not alone in the universe?

I am not trying to start fights. I am just trying to understand logic. The most important thing to me is the thought process, behind the conclusions. Not proof of the conclusions.

Jesus Christ was not a JEW, in the sense that you are implying.  The popular definition of a jew is someone that prescribes to the Jewish faith. However ethnincally A Jew is someone of the Tribe of Judah.

Ancient Isreal was split into two kingdoms upon the dawn of the age of the gentiles.

Isreal and Judea.  Jesus was born in Nazareth which is in Philstia or modern day Palestine.  

QUOTE

Even though Ezekial alludes to a UFO. Isn't it just as probable that someone gave birth through miraculous conception as it is that we are not alone in the universe?

Where???

QUOTE

"Jesus was a Jew"
1)The word jew means son of a jew. So jesus was a jew based on his ethnic background.
2)Like any rabi, his preachings and ideas were shared so he would still be considered a man of the jewish faith.

@ _iffy

JEW is short for JUDAH, it was an acient racial slur. It may have many other modern connatations but that is the biblical origins.

Funny you mention rabbis, I saw a special which perfomed genetic analysis of Rabbis, which concluded that the Rabbis, are only slightly ethnic jews. A "Jewish genome sequence" or DNA sequence was extrapolated from these analysis and it proved to their dismay that they were not ethnic Jews.

The same DNA analysis has been performed on American blacks, note I left out African because these analysis astonished many to find out that they are not even mildly of African descent.

Heiroglyphics which are several thousands years old would indicate that writing skills have existed for some time.

P.S. Chariot = horse, motorcycle, tank, car. Semantics, again I see.

@ Statecowboy the biggest religous lie has to be that picture in you sig..

[_iffy]

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 30 2006, 05:09 PM)

BTW...What was all of that about Roman Catholics....
The early Christian kicked around for centuries before the "Roman Catholic" church....
They had all kinds of fun debates...they tried to decide if Jesus was divine or not..
They were playing around with early versions of the new testament...

QUOTE

(in rome that's were everything became official)

The organized christian faith began here. But your right about the early christians

QUOTE(jha'dhur @ Mar 30 2006, 06:34 PM)

Heiroglyphics which are several thousands years old would indicate that writing skills have existed for some time.

Maybe 10 people knew how to right though.
Are you sure about the judah thing, cause i always thought that that's why people who convert to judaism weren't considered real jews.

BTW we are all african in origin

[throwingks]

QUOTE(jha'dhur @ Mar 30 2006, 04:34 PM)

Where???

This is just a quick source I found on google.
http://www.bibleufo.com/zezekiel.htm

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 30 2006, 06:15 PM)

so, ThrowingKS....what definition of "Jew" were you asking about?

I understand the the term 'Jew" is used 2 ways. As a race or as a religion. My question is pertaining to the religion, as that is the context I understand it to be, when the statement "Jesus was a Jew" is made.

I have been reading all the responses, and I am purposefully staying out of the conversation, as I am just trying to take in what everyone has to say. I appreciate what everyone has said already, and it is clearing a few things up.

Based on what you have said so far, my opinion on the matter for question #1 has not changed. Jesus was not a 'Jew' in my opinion. He believed he was the Messiah, making him, in a sense Christian.

As for #2 I still do not understand why it is unfathomable to believe in UFOs for the majority. Ezekial alludes to something 'other-worldly' for whatever reason. If you can say Ezekial was high, why can't you say any other person in the Bible was, including Mary? Why are Ezekial's statements not taken literal, and Mary's are? Both are just as ludicrous, or just as sane, as the other. If the Bible is meant to be taken literally, why isn't it for Ezekial?

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(throwingks @ Mar 30 2006, 11:05 PM)

This is just a quick source I found on google.
http://www.bibleufo.com/zezekiel.htmI understand the the term 'Jew" is used 2 ways. As a race or as a religion. My question is pertaining to the religion, as that is the context I understand it to be, when the statement "Jesus was a Jew" is made.

The source you quote doesnt include any biblical reference, what chapter and verse does this transcript refer to.

Jesus was a christian.

QUOTE

The Greeks and the Romans both had rampant literacy...that had existed for centuries....
We actually have historians the like from the time of Jesus...they were keeping careful records...

The problem? Until he was 30 something... Jesus was not a very important guy....

BTW...this rampant literacy explains why they had to edit the bible...there were hundreds of texts in circulation....and some of them were wilder than others...
its an interesting topic...
but yeah...lots of people could read/write 2000 years ago.

That is just plain bogus,

Biblical history clearly illustrates that people in the times of Moses or Abraham were quite advanced.

The Pyramids in Egypt and S. America illustrate advanced mathematical and building skills as well as literacy.  The Great pyramid at Giza is 2000 years older than Greek civilization.  

Not to mention the great wall of China or the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

There isnt much archaelogical evidence to even indicate that while pyramids were being constructed across Africa that mankind hide spread out of Africa/Arabia.

The christian bible detials the many known world powers to threaten the 12 tribes thousands of years before
the greeks/gentiles or for that fact any of the caucasian group appeared.

QUOTE

This is based on your misunderstanding of who the Messiah really was...
He was a fabled king of the Jews who would come and save them...

The term "Christian"...didnt even exist for awhile after Jesus left.
His followers were primarily Jewish...and continued to be Jewish.

The problem, and Christians have a problem with this, is that your only looking at it from a Christian perspective.

A Christian thinks that a Jew is someone who believes in the God of Abraham/Jacob/Moses...but who doesnt believe in Jesus. This is only because anyone who follows Jesus calls themselves Christian today.
There is absolutely nothing that would prevent a Jew from believing in Jesus...except that he would also be a Christian...

So Judaism is not the denial of Christianity...that is just a definition of convenience....fir Christians
Judaism simply follows the old testament.....since the coming of a savior was foretold...divine Jesus could easily be a Jewish belief....

I will give you an example...during the protestant reformation...protestants broke from the Catholic Church...
Protestants frequently refer to themselves as "Christians" and Catholics as "Catholics"....
now obviously Catholics are Christians....but a protestant would not normally refer to them as such, and this convention is normally understood by Catholics as well(even though they get offended)

Definition and "common convention" often conflict in a small way...but it makes for a clearer understanding

That is just plain bogus, I take that back upon further review it is just completly bogus.

@ throwingks

I would encourage you to read the bible for yourself, I would categorize the vast majority of this thread as pagan propaganda.  In my travels must that love to exalt their biblical understanding have not even read the entire book cover to cover.

And this is apparent by the "urban legends" being recieted in this thread.  The U.S. christian church is full of Bin Ladens also.

You can tell them by the fruit that they bear.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 31 2006, 01:23 AM)

umm dude.....rampant literacy=people could read.....
**hang on...i think i see your misunderstanding....
I wasnt denying that people could read before the Romans...
I was simply talking about literacy at the time of the Romans...***edit***

how is it totally bogus???.i said the same thing you did.....

and what urban legends did i list?

Sure Jesus was a Christian....
but was Jesus Jewish?...thats the question......and the answer is yes...unless at some point he denied the Torah, the Prophets or the Writings...in which case...let me know

The very concept of Jesus is diametrically opposite the Jewish belief system.

Can you be Muslim and Jew?

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 31 2006, 02:09 AM)

Ill explain the difference....later
BUT FIRST
What the heck was all that about my comments on literacy being bogus?
And what "urban myths" did i mention

Mathematics, science blacksmithing, masonry, and written language have existed well over 2000 years.
Archaeologically twice that given the 7 wonders.

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 31 2006, 02:09 AM)

p.s. you might want to change your comment about the "concept of Jesus" to the "practice of modern christians following the instructions of paul"

Paul is irrelevant, Yes I know he was the only GENTILE apostle. Christianity here at its essence is no different from Ethipioan denominations or anyone else for that matter.  

Ask the British?