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[throwingks]

QUOTE(jha'dhur @ Mar 30 2006, 11:12 PM)

The source you quote doesnt include any biblical reference, what chapter and verse does this transcript refer to.

Jesus was a christian.

In the link all the numbers that are in bold refer to the part in the bible. For convenience, here is the link again.
http://www.bibleufo.com/zezekiel.htm
There are many many more sites. If you would like me to post more links I will.

QUOTE

@ throwingks

I would encourage you to read the bible for yourself, I would categorize the vast majority of this thread as pagan propaganda.  In my travels must that love to exalt their biblical understanding have not even read the entire book cover to cover.

I could read the Bible cover to cover, but I have no desire. I do not wish to better understand Christian theology, I wish to understand their thought processes. I do not think the 2 are related, unfortunately.

Was Jesus kosher? I know Christians aren't because Jesus 'made' it okay to eat whatever you want. That isn't a determining factor in deciding his religion, but it does kinda lean it one way or the other.

I feel since you are all helping me find some answers, it would only be fair to give you some background info on me... I am not now, nor have I ever been a Christian in any sense of the word. My family is Jewish and I am agnostic. However, my wife and I are raising my son Jewish, simply to help instill moral values into his life. He will be free to choose whatever he wishes to believe. We will encourage him to research all avenues and make a logical decision on his own.

P.S. Thank you Statecowboy, for coming back to this hostile environment and answering a few of my questions from your perspective. People with your perspective (knowledgable practising Christians) don't really have a presense over here anymore. Most of the confrontational people no longer post here and I hope your stay is longer this time.

[damam]

QUOTE

Based on what you have said so far, my opinion on the matter for question #1 has not changed. Jesus was not a 'Jew' in my opinion. He believed he was the Messiah, making him, in a sense Christian.

that would be like saying King David, was not a jew simply because he believed he was a great king and social revolutionary.  That is all the messiah is: a great king and social revolutionary that was supposed to end the reign of the gentiles.  It does not make him any less of a jew to have believed that.  He was also not alone in professing to be a messiah.  There were tons of them at that time (all still considered to be jews).  What made him unique from the vast majority was that he did not push for an armed revolution as well as a social revolution, he only pushed a social revolution within the jewish community.  The biggest problem is that you are taking christian concepts that have evolved quite a bit from there jewish roots and forcing them back onto jewish beliefs.  You also seem to be confusing Paul with Jesus.

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Was Jesus kosher? I know Christians aren't because Jesus 'made' it okay to eat whatever you want. That isn't a determining factor in deciding his religion, but it does kinda lean it one way or the other.

yes jesus was kosher in my oppinion, he followed the law and traditions.  Even after his death they tried to give him proper jewish burial which implies that everyone around him still saw him as jewish.  There is one incident (Mark 2:23-28) where jesus and his disciples were picking grain in a field and eating the raw grain on the sabath while they were on a walk.  The pharisees saw this as a form of work on the sabath because in there oppinion they should have picked whatever they needed to eat the day before.  Jesus basically argued that eating when you are hungry is not a crime.  

It was Paul that made it ok to eat what ever you wanted.  Not Jesus.

QUOTE

As for #2 I still do not understand why it is unfathomable to believe in UFOs for the majority. Ezekial alludes to something 'other-worldly' for whatever reason. If you can say Ezekial was high, why can't you say any other person in the Bible was, including Mary? Why are Ezekial's statements not taken literal, and Mary's are? Both are just as ludicrous, or just as sane, as the other. If the Bible is meant to be taken literally, why isn't it for Ezekial?

ezekial could have seen a ufo.  we will never know.  I am simply saying that ezekial had about 48 seperate visions and (based on the page you posted) a couple of them supports the notion of a ufo.  how does the person that looks to this as a ufo experience explain the other 40 or so visions?  By most accounts the "UFO" visions is one of the tamer ones.  This is a person that had a lot of visions . . .  

Its also interesting to note that stoners today seem to make up the bulk of the UFO witnesses.  According to mufon they are more open to the experiene due to the drug use and are less likely to repress the memory    Not that they were tripping hardcore or anything as simple as that and simply had a hallucination.

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Paul is irrelevant, Yes I know he was the only GENTILE apostle.

Paul was born a jew, and became a self imposed gentile.  The minute the other apostles all decided to follow paul (which is illustrated in acts) they became gentiles as well.  Acts is the demarc point where christians became a cult in the eyes of the roman rulers.

[damam]

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 31 2006, 11:22 AM)

also...why arent Christians kosher....Paul had this to say about respecting Mosaic law
"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

Meat without blood refers to kosher meals....but he may be allowing pork and shellfish....kinda sketchy...
but they are still obviously enforcing the "meat sans blood" part of the kosher law

there is more to it though (which i am sure you know but i am just saying for clarification). . . .  paul was not simply argueing that it was ok to eat all meat as long as there was no blood

Paul was argueing that gentiles need not convert to judaism or practice jewish traditions and follow the law in order to be christians.  The apostles were saying the exact opposite.    Before Paul (B.P. ? ), in order to be a christian you had to first be a jew or a jewish convert and be practicing the law and traditions.  What made this come to a head is when they started getting gentiles who wanted to join the sect and did not mind following the law and traditions with the exception they did not want to be circumsized (the wimps).  Theres sections of ACTS that can be loosely interpretted as the apostles getting into brawls (as in fist fights) with Paul over this matter to give you an idea of how controversial it was to the apostles.  This eventually led the path down to a virtual abondonment of all things that jews normally associate with being a part of the jewish culture.

It also turned christianity into a highly adaptable religion for all cultures.

[puckSR]

I know...I just find it odd that first he made some conciliatory statement about still needing to maintain most Jewish law...and then he drops it all

[heinrich]

Can't believe that no one has said this.. but it seems the question behind #1 would be'when did Jesus become Christ (the son of god)?'.  I would say  that he became "Christ" when he was baptised - and God showed up and said "Thou art my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased".  After this (and after his trials) "From that time Jesus began to preach".  Of course, he was supposed to be preaching to the Jews, not to convert them to anything, their doctrine already spoke of a coming messiah, it was more like convincing them that he was here, and in an ideal world, all the Jews would have said "ok, this is our guy" - and there is no need for a new religion.

Others prescribe to the theory that he didnt become Christ did he was crucified, but the baptism idea fits well with having to be baptised to become a christian.

But really, who cares? ;p

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(damam @ Mar 31 2006, 04:25 PM)

Paul was born a jew, and became a self imposed gentile.  The minute the other apostles all decided to follow paul (which is illustrated in acts) they became gentiles as well.  Acts is the demarc point where christians became a cult in the eyes of the roman rulers.

What bible version are you reading from? You must have one of those hillbilly bibles that say negroes are cursed.

Saul AKA Paul was a greek, commonly refered to as a gentiles. In English a white dude...

QUOTE(damam @ Mar 31 2006, 04:25 PM)

It was Paul that made it ok to eat what ever you wanted.  Not Jesus.

BOGUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was Jesus that forced apostles to eat traditionally unclean foods like swine after they had prayed over it.

Your interpretations are contadictory to the christian beliefs I was raised with.

[damam]

QUOTE(jha'dhur @ Mar 31 2006, 03:13 PM)

What bible version are you reading from? You must have one of those hillbilly bibles that say negroes are cursed.

Saul AKA Paul was a greek, commonly refered to as a gentiles. In English a white dude...

Since I am not sure which one is the hilbilly version I will quote the two most commonly used ones today.  Let me know for future reference which one you prefer. . .

He was known as Saul/Paul of Tarsus which is in modern day turkey and he was a jew.  At this time there were jews all over the place (asia, africa, and europe) and they all identified themselves as jews.
wiki on tarsus

Acts 21:39
NIV(new international version) = Paul answered, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people."
KJV(King James Version) = But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Acts 22:3
NIV = Then Paul said: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.
KJV= I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

QUOTE

BOGUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was Jesus that forced apostles to eat traditionally unclean foods like swine after they had prayed over it.

Your interpretations are contadictory to the christian beliefs I was raised with.

Jesus never said that or did that or endorsed such behavior.  PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG BY SHOWING THE VERSE.

As a matter of fact jesus said he only came for the Jews and they never would have listened to him if was doing the behavior you describe.  
Another note is that Mathew, Mark, Luke & John only talk of pigs twice that i know of: Once when he put the demons in a herd of pig and then ordered them off the cliff (nothing about eating them afterwords) and once when discussing the Prodigal Son whome in the parable (ie did not really happen) fed pigs and did not eat them.
If I didnt know better I would say your trolling . . . .

[heinrich]

There were more passages that indicate that Paul was Jewish.. Philippians 3:5 and Romans 11:1.  Of course, Paul wrote all of these himself...

[_iffy]

^^ this is what i was trying to say...

all historical records from that time are bias.

They didn't have newspapers back then. There were no street signs. There weren't "best selling novels"
Tom clancy wasn't born yet. How can you people say their population was mostly literate. There is no infalible evidence that they were.

Much like the middle ages (dark ages) the majority of the people couldn't read or write. Most people were poor farmers or bakers or dentists. Uneducated.

But that's not to say paul didn't get a monk to write for him.

you can't take 2000 year old text that's been edited every century, translated 20 or more times, and use it like it was a photograph.

Faith is very personal. What you believe. Please don't confuse fact with faith. They're independant of each other.

[damam]

QUOTE(puckSR @ Mar 31 2006, 04:41 PM)

. . . except for the Paul being Jewish thing...I think he might have lied a little to gain some extra acceptance....why else would he be so strongly opposed to Jewish law?

I suppose its possible, but it is certainly not my oppinion.  I think it would be very hard to be an outsider and claim to be a jewish fundamentalist.  Atleast for a while he did live stictly by the law and traditions while he lived with the apostles.  He also would have had to have circumsized himself which I would assume is an undesirable experience for an adult male(?) . . .  But your right its all doable and possible.

another point is that there were jews at the time that did not practice the law or atleast picked and chose which ones they would follow and ignore.  The infamous Josephus being one of them.  I know that christians say that absolute adherence to the laws and traditions were required back then, but alternative records dont really support this notion.  So it is not exactly unheard of for jews at the time to be anti-mosaic law.

I hope that we can alteast agree that because he was from tarsus that does not close the book on the possibility of him being a jew.

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Faith is very personal. What you believe. Please don't confuse fact with faith. They're independant of each other.

so true

[Arvarden]

Some sort of answer regarding Jesus's sect can be found in the Koran....I think.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(damam @ Mar 31 2006, 10:03 PM)

Since I am not sure which one is the hilbilly version I will quote the two most commonly used ones today.  Let me know for future reference which one you prefer. . .

He was known as Saul/Paul of Tarsus which is in modern day turkey and he was a jew.  At this time there were jews all over the place (asia, africa, and europe) and they all identified themselves as jews.
wiki on tarsus

Acts 21:39
NIV(new international version) = Paul answered, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people."
KJV(King James Version) = But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Acts 22:3
NIV = Then Paul said: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.
KJV= I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Jesus never said that or did that or endorsed such behavior.  PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG BY SHOWING THE VERSE.

As a matter of fact jesus said he only came for the Jews and they never would have listened to him if was doing the behavior you describe.  
Another note is that Mathew, Mark, Luke & John only talk of pigs twice that i know of: Once when he put the demons in a herd of pig and then ordered them off the cliff (nothing about eating them afterwords) and once when discussing the Prodigal Son whome in the parable (ie did not really happen) fed pigs and did not eat them.
If I didnt know better I would say your trolling . . . .

I am not debating whether Saul/Paul was a Jewsih convert. I am debating whether he was a descendant of the 12 tribes of Isreal.  

From your very own words clearly he wasnt (of Judah) he was a convert Turk.

QUOTE

If I didnt know better I would say your trolling . . . .

You know if I was trolling I would probably respond in kind to Puck's gestures.  I am sorry I dont think like you and you find that threatning.  Take your own advice, turn the channel.

@ Puck, 4 individuals have PM'd me (so you know) describing you with not so kind words. I am not going to occupy myself with your childish antics. Your personal attack is a clear indication that you have nothing constructive to add only dramaitcs. But I am sure they are all wrong not you Puck

So in you imaginary world, Paul can be Judah Paul Hur, and you can be an Native American.
 

[jha'dhur]

The Descendants of Jacob/Israel are reffered to as the 12 Tribes of Israel.

Judah is one of the 12 tribes. From hence the Christ is a descendant.

Jew is slang for Judah. Jews or descendants of Judah lived in Judea.

There became a point in Isrealite history where Israel and Judea split.

The northern tribes embraced greek culture while the southern tribes allied themselves with the Afro Arabs.

Saul later Paul was a religous Jew by tradition.  He was to spread the "good news" to the Gentiles, because he was best qualified, he was an insider.

Saying you are a catholic while you believe in abortion is a contradiction. You are a "whatever" by tradition, (non practicing).

I am not the type to pick up axes ground by others but, you are an expert in your own opinion.
 
I am willing to bet if I sat down and read your last 50 post every single word would be corroborated only with your opinion.

Actually after reading the Haliburton thread, you are the troll but I guess you and the female are trolls of the same affiliation.

But I did get a good laugh out of the fact that you actually believe you can tell the future or that people can make gold.

Could you send some gold to my paypal account.  

 

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(puckSR @ Apr 1 2006, 04:52 PM)

I think the "make gold" reference is to my comment that modern science could sythensize gold....so here is some info.

"in 1980, Glenn Seaborg transmuted lead into gold, though the amount of energy used and the microscopic quantities created negated any possible financial benefit."
-wikipedia
another article on the same thing

smart guy...go read up on him...he also synthesized gold
[/i]

Unsubstantiated, much like the morons that claimed they cloned a person from Clone AID.

          OR UFO'S (Why they are unidentified)
                Bigfoot
                Loch Ness

Yes there are fools on this planet I believe you probably know and share the same last name with a few.

Your digging a bigger hole for yourself PLEASE continue....

[puckSR]

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Unsubstantiated, much like the morons that claimed they cloned a person from Clone AID.

are you actually claiming that we have never turned one element into another?
Are you comparing a highly decorated Chemist to the Raelians?
How is this anything like clone aid...if your going to go all conspiracy theory...at least compare him to that Korean scientist....who got into trouble for doing "bad work"

You say Im lying...but you dont produce anything to prove me wrong...
Im sure you found a lot of articles claiming that it did happen....where is the one claiming that it is unsubstantiated?
WOW....all i can say is WOW.....


So...Tell me more about Jesus praying over unclean meat...and then eating it....I want to hear about this....
LMAO


Ummm...how many links would you like to prove your full of shit?
Pork unclean to Jesus

So....apparently we cannot change atoms?
Apparently Jesus said something that he never said?
Apparently a brilliant Chemist lied about doing something that is scientifically quite possible?
Apparently i dont do anything but spout opinion?

Can i come to your world sometime...and enjoy the craziness...
mine is getting rather boring right now, having to talk to idiots like you

Maybe you realize your wrong...and you just are not man enough to admit it....
in which case...I understand...just be quiet...and apologize to everyone you insulted....