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[bbagnall]

Hahaha. "a new era of opportunity begins for Europe. 450 million people in 25 countries can now build their future together, united in peace, freedom and democracy." Do you seriously think this is anything but part of the plan for one world government? You and your European brothers are being duped.

This is the most undemocratic thing ever foisted on a group of people. If you took an honest vote long ago to see if you wanted all European States melded into one giant United States, they would have said no.

Instead, they say "It's just the Euro... thats all" Then they give it a trading name: European Union. Then they give you a flag. Then an anthem. Then laws. Gee what has a flag, a currency, an anthem and laws??? Hmmm?? Could it be a country? This is the biggest con game ever.

[BloodyMary]

All governments so far have sucked... of course I say that, having only ever lived in the (un)united states, which is soon bound to fall to its knees, cause it's being destroyed from the inside by a totally fucked up court system and too many politicians that sell nothing but lies... speaking of that, the government body of the (un)US is far too large... a big military with the best equipment makes us strong... a fucked up government that tells that military how to do its job brings us down to our knees...

[nemt]

The EU is a great way for terrorists to get from one side of europe to the other.  There's no borders in many of the EU countries.

[gronne]

The idea with EU might sound good, but in the long run I wouldn't like seeing a cold war with USA or anything like that. The EU is something of a fraud, because they want everything to run from Brussels. IMO Sweden has lost a lot by joining the EU. Since we are rich we have to give the poor countries a lot of money just like that. Germany, France, UK and Italy are the countries that (tries) to benefit the most from it.

Some things are good with the EU but not for all.

Please Nemt, don't start discussing in this topic since you don't know jack about the EU.

[nemt]

QUOTE (gronne @ May 1 2004, 09:01 AM)

Please Nemt, don't start discussing in this topic since you don't know jack about the EU.

Yeah, I only lived in it for two years.  You don't even seem to know enough about your own country to start talking about it.  Enjoy your 70% tax rate.

[XanTium]

Funny how its americans and canadians that are most again the idea of a big re-united europe.

Is the EU perfect?, certainly not and it sucks many ways ... but I suggest you all look up a bit more about what happened all in the 20th century in europe and maybe you'll understand why a re-united Europe is important.

Undemocratic? no ... all countries have elections and during elections you choose for people that will make decision in your place. All gouvernements of all countries agreed to join, so I see no issues.

And the EU is no country, most power of each country stays national and any big decision the EU makes requires unanimous vote.
EU is about keeping all these countries and cultures in peace with freedom of travelling and moving from one country to another and make it one big economical market (which makes it a lot easier for companies ... also for US companies in case you worry).

What if eastern europe wouldn't have been allowed to join the EU? Very simple ... they would have started their own 'union'. These countries are evolving very fast now, and if they want to progress they can't stay alone (as 1 country you don't mean shit in the world, both economical and political). I don't think it would have been a great idea to have 2 'unions' in europe next to big russia.

[nemt]

QUOTE (XanTium @ May 1 2004, 09:36 AM)

What if eastern europe wouldn't have been allowed to join the EU? Very simple ... they would have started their own 'union'.

They already did that once, it didn't work out too well.

I wouldn't say I'm against a unified Europe, but the borders shouldn't be any less secure (which they are).

[XanTium]

QUOTE (nemt @ May 1 2004, 03:40 PM)

They already did that once, it didn't work out too well.

exactly my point ... the cold war and devided europe (capitalism/communism) wasnt too great was it?

And I personally think a divided europe in capitalism/capitalism would be even worse.

[nemt]

QUOTE (XanTium @ May 1 2004, 09:49 AM)

And I personally think a divided europe in capitalism/capitalism would be even worse.

What's the big deal about unity?

What happened to the good old days when countries looked out for themselves, instead of trying to piggyback the first world?

[XanTium]

QUOTE (nemt @ May 1 2004, 03:52 PM)

What's the big deal about unity? What happened to the good old days when countries looked out for themselves, instead of trying to piggyback the first world?

If there would be 2 big groups of countries I wouldn't be surprised to see economical and political tension go over in military tension. History has proven that often enough.

edit: Why unity? Why not? As small country alone you don't mean ANYTHING anymore these days. If you want to survive between USA, Russia, China, India you have to unite. Now with 25 countries we don't even have 50% of people there is in china ... in a few years that will mean not even 50% of the market china is. As country alone with a few millions people you would be totally lost.

[HSDEMONZ]

It's an interesting day for Europe.. no doubt about that.

Not everyone in Europe is happy though.  Some countries entering into the union might be democratic now.. but there was no mandate given by the people of some countrties to their governments for them to enter into the union.  It was a decision made by their elected officials.  In some countries.. I expect to hear reports of civil unrest and other methods of backlash.. as there are surely some who lose in a united Europe.

Personally..  New expansion of the EU doesn't concern me in the slightest.  All the real action these days is in Asia.

There is a huge xodus of jobs from North America going to Asia.. and the New EU will be the next to face the xodus.  The stronger the EU becomes.. and the dollar's value strengthens.. Europe will adopt other North American Ideals.. higher wages.. unions.. etc. All will lead to the same problems NA faces now. (that's not to say they don't have those ideals now.. but they will surely grow as their member states of the EU grow and prosper.)

NA and EU are already quickly sliding downhill.. as Asia gets stronger daily.

The company I work for.. designs alot of products.. but doesn't have any of it made locally. It's all made in Asia. Why.. cause the wages we pay are 7 cents on the dollar compared with Canada.. and even lower when compared to the states and Europe.

Europe can celebrate this day.

It's the coming days that are a concern.

[XanTium]

The problem that production and now even design goes to Asia is certainly not only in NA. Europe is facing the same problem.
Basicly since the '70 wages became too high here just like in NA and mostly production goes to Asia where people earn like 10% of what we earn.

Ofcourse the 'richer' countries of the EU will see money flow to the 'less rich' countries. But it's not the first time ... I mean, look at where spain, portugal and greece are now compared to where they were before the joined. Lots of money from the 'richer' countries was invested in those countries ... and as result they came countries with lots of buy power which is good for all western companies.

Will the eastern EU countries cost a lot of money to the western EU countries? At first certainly ... but as united market if their buy power grows it's also good for the west and as united economy it's also a lot more powerfull against giants like usa and soon china, india, ...
Also while the western EU countries can't really make any big econ. grow anymore (just like USA/CAN), with the eastern countries it'll make a nice yearly econ. grow for the whole region.

On a side note ... I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of time before USA will close 'deals' with south america.

[HSDEMONZ]

.. yes.. a deal with the america's is definitely pending.  Good or bad.. I can't say.

To further the point I was making earlier.. and the one Xantium had expanded on.. as the EU grows.. and gets stronger.. and the rich get richer.. the people.. especially at the low end will be the ones that suffer the most.

It's their jobs that will continue to disappear.

The temporary winfall of the increased buying power.. isn't enough to staff off the inevitable.. which is people who can't even afford to buy all this new "cheap" asian made products.. because they lack the jobs to pay for them.

Sure.. some EU countries have sweet benefitsd for the unemployed or unimployable.. but that won't last indefinitely.. especially in the new global economy

[gronne]

QUOTE

Yeah, I only lived in it for two years. You don't even seem to know enough about your own country to start talking about it. Enjoy your 70% tax rate.

OMG Nemt!!! You lived there for 2(TWO) years!! I suppose you know all about Europe then. For a starter, I love tax. In Sweden most morally intelligent people do. Secondly, I pay about 33% in tax as of now. I don't know anybody that pays 70% except from some EXTREMELY rich people, wealth-tax. The reason this country is running so well is because of the taxes. The problem is that a lot of people take advantage of the wellfare-system to get more money.



Just want to add that europe gets more socialistic by the day(except from capitalistic big-shots stealing more money than ever). So eventhough EU will try its best to destroy Europe I think we'll get BETTER(not greater which seems to be the most important for USA) than before.

Xantium: You said you didn't want two unions like eastern and western europe to compete with eachother, but is it that big of a difference when EU competes with USA?
  Sweden was a better country before we joined the EU, now the EU have forced us to have the same alcohole-laws as the rest of the EU which will end up in great health problems for Sweden since we now can buy very cheap alcohole from Germany and bring back to Sweden for a third of the cost if you had bought it in Sweden. We had very strict alcohole-laws before, and little problems with alcoholics, that'll all change because of the EU.

[melon]