Post by: bbagnall on April 30, 2004, 07:19:00 PM
This is the most undemocratic thing ever foisted on a group of people. If you took an honest vote long ago to see if you wanted all European States melded into one giant United States, they would have said no.
Instead, they say "It's just the Euro... thats all" Then they give it a trading name: European Union. Then they give you a flag. Then an anthem. Then laws. Gee what has a flag, a currency, an anthem and laws??? Hmmm?? Could it be a country? This is the biggest con game ever.
Post by: BloodyMary on May 01, 2004, 02:59:00 AM
Post by: nemt on May 01, 2004, 04:41:00 AM
Post by: gronne on May 01, 2004, 05:01:00 AM
Some things are good with the EU but not for all.
Please Nemt, don't start discussing in this topic since you don't know jack about the EU.
Post by: nemt on May 01, 2004, 05:16:00 AM
| QUOTE (gronne @ May 1 2004, 09:01 AM) |
| Please Nemt, don't start discussing in this topic since you don't know jack about the EU. |
Yeah, I only lived in it for two years. You don't even seem to know enough about your own country to start talking about it. Enjoy your 70% tax rate.
Post by: XanTium on May 01, 2004, 05:36:00 AM
Is the EU perfect?, certainly not and it sucks many ways ... but I suggest you all look up a bit more about what happened all in the 20th century in europe and maybe you'll understand why a re-united Europe is important.
Undemocratic? no ... all countries have elections and during elections you choose for people that will make decision in your place. All gouvernements of all countries agreed to join, so I see no issues.
And the EU is no country, most power of each country stays national and any big decision the EU makes requires unanimous vote.
EU is about keeping all these countries and cultures in peace with freedom of travelling and moving from one country to another and make it one big economical market (which makes it a lot easier for companies ... also for US companies in case you worry).
What if eastern europe wouldn't have been allowed to join the EU? Very simple ... they would have started their own 'union'. These countries are evolving very fast now, and if they want to progress they can't stay alone (as 1 country you don't mean shit in the world, both economical and political). I don't think it would have been a great idea to have 2 'unions' in europe next to big russia.
Post by: nemt on May 01, 2004, 05:40:00 AM
| QUOTE (XanTium @ May 1 2004, 09:36 AM) |
| What if eastern europe wouldn't have been allowed to join the EU? Very simple ... they would have started their own 'union'. |
They already did that once, it didn't work out too well.
I wouldn't say I'm against a unified Europe, but the borders shouldn't be any less secure (which they are).
Post by: XanTium on May 01, 2004, 05:49:00 AM
| QUOTE (nemt @ May 1 2004, 03:40 PM) |
| They already did that once, it didn't work out too well. |
exactly my point ... the cold war and devided europe (capitalism/communism) wasnt too great was it?
And I personally think a divided europe in capitalism/capitalism would be even worse.
Post by: nemt on May 01, 2004, 05:52:00 AM
| QUOTE (XanTium @ May 1 2004, 09:49 AM) |
| And I personally think a divided europe in capitalism/capitalism would be even worse. |
What's the big deal about unity?
What happened to the good old days when countries looked out for themselves, instead of trying to piggyback the first world?
Post by: XanTium on May 01, 2004, 05:58:00 AM
| QUOTE (nemt @ May 1 2004, 03:52 PM) |
| What's the big deal about unity? What happened to the good old days when countries looked out for themselves, instead of trying to piggyback the first world? |
If there would be 2 big groups of countries I wouldn't be surprised to see economical and political tension go over in military tension. History has proven that often enough.
edit: Why unity? Why not? As small country alone you don't mean ANYTHING anymore these days. If you want to survive between USA, Russia, China, India you have to unite. Now with 25 countries we don't even have 50% of people there is in china ... in a few years that will mean not even 50% of the market china is. As country alone with a few millions people you would be totally lost.
Post by: HSDEMONZ on May 01, 2004, 06:08:00 AM
Not everyone in Europe is happy though. Some countries entering into the union might be democratic now.. but there was no mandate given by the people of some countrties to their governments for them to enter into the union. It was a decision made by their elected officials. In some countries.. I expect to hear reports of civil unrest and other methods of backlash.. as there are surely some who lose in a united Europe.
Personally.. New expansion of the EU doesn't concern me in the slightest. All the real action these days is in Asia.
There is a huge xodus of jobs from North America going to Asia.. and the New EU will be the next to face the xodus. The stronger the EU becomes.. and the dollar's value strengthens.. Europe will adopt other North American Ideals.. higher wages.. unions.. etc. All will lead to the same problems NA faces now. (that's not to say they don't have those ideals now.. but they will surely grow as their member states of the EU grow and prosper.)
NA and EU are already quickly sliding downhill.. as Asia gets stronger daily.
The company I work for.. designs alot of products.. but doesn't have any of it made locally. It's all made in Asia. Why.. cause the wages we pay are 7 cents on the dollar compared with Canada.. and even lower when compared to the states and Europe.
Europe can celebrate this day.
It's the coming days that are a concern.
Post by: XanTium on May 01, 2004, 06:34:00 AM
Basicly since the '70 wages became too high here just like in NA and mostly production goes to Asia where people earn like 10% of what we earn.
Ofcourse the 'richer' countries of the EU will see money flow to the 'less rich' countries. But it's not the first time ... I mean, look at where spain, portugal and greece are now compared to where they were before the joined. Lots of money from the 'richer' countries was invested in those countries ... and as result they came countries with lots of buy power which is good for all western companies.
Will the eastern EU countries cost a lot of money to the western EU countries? At first certainly ... but as united market if their buy power grows it's also good for the west and as united economy it's also a lot more powerfull against giants like usa and soon china, india, ...
Also while the western EU countries can't really make any big econ. grow anymore (just like USA/CAN), with the eastern countries it'll make a nice yearly econ. grow for the whole region.
On a side note ... I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of time before USA will close 'deals' with south america.
Post by: HSDEMONZ on May 01, 2004, 09:13:00 AM
To further the point I was making earlier.. and the one Xantium had expanded on.. as the EU grows.. and gets stronger.. and the rich get richer.. the people.. especially at the low end will be the ones that suffer the most.
It's their jobs that will continue to disappear.
The temporary winfall of the increased buying power.. isn't enough to staff off the inevitable.. which is people who can't even afford to buy all this new "cheap" asian made products.. because they lack the jobs to pay for them.
Sure.. some EU countries have sweet benefitsd for the unemployed or unimployable.. but that won't last indefinitely.. especially in the new global economy
Post by: gronne on May 04, 2004, 08:29:00 AM
| QUOTE |
Yeah, I only lived in it for two years. You don't even seem to know enough about your own country to start talking about it. Enjoy your 70% tax rate. |
OMG Nemt!!! You lived there for 2(TWO) years!! I suppose you know all about Europe then. For a starter, I love tax. In Sweden most morally intelligent people do. Secondly, I pay about 33% in tax as of now. I don't know anybody that pays 70% except from some EXTREMELY rich people, wealth-tax. The reason this country is running so well is because of the taxes. The problem is that a lot of people take advantage of the wellfare-system to get more money.
Just want to add that europe gets more socialistic by the day(except from capitalistic big-shots stealing more money than ever). So eventhough EU will try its best to destroy Europe I think we'll get BETTER(not greater which seems to be the most important for USA) than before.
Xantium: You said you didn't want two unions like eastern and western europe to compete with eachother, but is it that big of a difference when EU competes with USA?
Sweden was a better country before we joined the EU, now the EU have forced us to have the same alcohole-laws as the rest of the EU which will end up in great health problems for Sweden since we now can buy very cheap alcohole from Germany and bring back to Sweden for a third of the cost if you had bought it in Sweden. We had very strict alcohole-laws before, and little problems with alcoholics, that'll all change because of the EU.
Post by: melon on May 05, 2004, 05:28:00 AM
Post by: gronne on May 05, 2004, 09:41:00 AM
Suppose you haven't been to Sweden. I don't like talking about nationalism, but I see a necessity here. We're like the irish, we drink a WHOLE lot. The culture up here is to get as drunk as possible at parties. Sad, but true, and you don't change such mentality just like that. Eventhough I'm against the new alcohole-laws, I myself will buy alcohole in Germany, because it's cheap and I CAN. Might look like double-standards, but I know that I won't start drinking more massive than earlier (hopefully not), though some undoubtedly will.
When it comes to Asia, I definitely think they'll get more powerful. I don't see that as something bad though, only if it leads to more wars. I'm not sure but I don't think India is a NIC(Newly Industrialized Country)-country so far, but if you travel to South Korea, Japan or Thailand you'll understand that something's happening, and China gets richer by the day. But if anything of Asia will become a super-power it'll take very many years.
Post by: melon on May 06, 2004, 03:50:00 PM
Post by: jbp20717 on May 12, 2004, 03:33:00 AM
. There are still major problems in trying to get work in foreign EU countries and there are still passport checks at borders. I think most British people are sceptical about an EU constitution. Also regarding gronne's preoccupations about people going to Germany to get cheap booze, I doubt it will drammatically increase the amount people drink, as melon says Brits can get cheaper drink in France, but only those who can be bothered to do the trip (i.e. not lazy students
) actually make the "booze cruise". (Although the amount of large alcohol warehouse in Calais is somewhat disturbing). Having said that I don't think Britain's drink problem could get much worse anyway - I don't know about the situation in Sweden.
Post by: gronne on May 12, 2004, 09:23:00 AM
Yes, in Sweden very many do own saunas(unfortunately only I like it in my family so we've never built a sauna). Should be pointed out that sauna is a finnish invention(many give Sweden credits for it). Sweden is social democratic, which I think is good(similar to the labour party, only we don't have a very stupid leader like Blair, but our PM Göran Persson has fallen in my eyes lately though). I myself am even more to the left though. We've got the world's most beautiful ladies
(according to most foreigners). We've got an incredible nature, shared by only 9 million people. We had very little crime until we joined EU, but now it gets worse every year. We are great at many sports. There used to be a great football coach in Sweden, maybe you've heard of him, I believe he's coaching a national team now, Mr. Sven-Göran Eriksson 
That's about it 
Post by: gronne on May 12, 2004, 09:26:00 AM