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[Serious Sam]

QUOTE(Devedander @ May 27 2006, 07:04 PM)

You said it yourself... discontinuing use of their software... sure MS can make new games not work if they detect hacked FW but to actually damage/disable the whole system based on it would get hairy.  Legally it migt even hold up, but don't underestimate the uproar it would bring along with it when dozens of moms and dads screem bloody murder that their $400 investment stopped working.  They don't care why, as far as they are concerned if you don't want it to be modded don't make it possible.  Right or wrong that is the kind of bad PR that can ruin a companies chances with a product.

See that's where you are wrong my friend. It is not MS's fault that you opened your console and tampered with the code. Infact it specifically says not to do so, and in the event that you do decide to open it up they will not support it. So for now your console works with an illegal third party firmware hack but once they decide to make an update in their code your console must be retail. If not it's your liability not theirs. Little Timmy's parents don't have a legal leg to stand on in this case. So complaining that their investment got trashed to MS would be pointless. Their $400 investment stopped working because their child wanted to "pirate" video games not the other way around.

So it's like this. If you want your console to work and not be banned, either A: Don't sign on to Xbox Live and take the update or B: Run the retail firmware and take the update. It's pretty simple

[nwo504]

im not sure if they would ban you from xbox live silver though. All they are worried about is cheaters right?

[brywalker]

QUOTE(nwo504 @ May 28 2006, 01:54 AM)

im not sure if they would ban you from xbox live silver though. All they are worried about is cheaters right?

Yeah, I'm sure they are more about setting an example. Bannination for all, if not brickness. It's been said before, you tampered with it - it's not their fault if it isn't "compatible" anymore.

[littlestevie360]

bricking consoles would be illegal in australia as i the consumer actually own the hardware, if i choose that i want to change the code on the dvd drive its up to me i did not break a single law, as there are no copywrites in the firmware that say this is the IP of m$ and/or TS, also backups are legal in australia if you legally own the original. M$ also dont own the software that is the games except for those out of M$ game studios so it is upto the third party developers to block use of the firmware when m$ tell them how, the dash could be discontinued but then i have not seen 1 part in the terms and conditions that say that, live is the only piece of software that i can see it spelt out "use of and device to cheat in a game will result in a ban" but if im not mistaken the SS is a hash of the files and structure, meaning you alter a file and the SS is broken meaning only true backups will run on the system.

P.S: doesnt the DCMA allow for 1 backup copy if you legally own the original? if so M$ violate the DCMA by not allowing use of your legally owned backup, Remember these consoles have a history of damaging disks


littlestevie360
(back from my ban that was a result of getting in a "flame war" that my post said spelling wasnt everything and that i would refuse to participate in anymore flaming as it is pathetic and a waste of time and off topic)

[RedMedic]

QUOTE(nwo504 @ May 27 2006, 08:54 PM)

im not sure if they would ban you from xbox live silver though. All they are worried about is cheaters right?

Umm, I think that piracy of a 50-60$ game is a concern of theirs, as well.  There isn't an issue of cheaters as of yet since the files can't be modified, but hundreds (and even thousands) of dollars of games can be lost to a couple XBOX owners who hack the firmware.  Even though hacked games never give you the satisfaction of a bought game, M$ doesn't want people freeloading.

[jamie123]

QUOTE(RedMedic @ May 28 2006, 04:11 AM)

Umm, I think that piracy of a 50-60$ game is a concern of theirs, as well.  There isn't an issue of cheaters as of yet since the files can't be modified, but hundreds (and even thousands) of dollars of games can be lost to a couple XBOX owners who hack the firmware.  Even though hacked games never give you the satisfaction of a bought game, M$ doesn't want people freeloading.

regardless of money loss or whatever, ms will not brick consoles, it's just not logical for them to do that, and if you don' tbeliev ethat because "it's not compatible" then what about windows xp and other programs like that?  they even have a genuine tester for windows xp, but they don't stop it from working, they just don't let you receive updates.


this is what it's gonan be

1. xbox live ban
2. probably some additional check for the disk somewhere else


that's what i think at least

[RedMedic]

QUOTE(jamie123 @ May 27 2006, 11:52 PM)

regardless of money loss or whatever, ms will not brick consoles, it's just not logical for them to do that, and if you don' tbeliev ethat because "it's not compatible" then what about windows xp and other programs like that?  they even have a genuine tester for windows xp, but they don't stop it from working, they just don't let you receive updates.
this is what it's gonan be

1. xbox live ban
2. probably some additional check for the disk somewhere else
that's what i think at least

I didn't say (nor do I think) that they'll brick consoles, that's just not logical at all.  I just think if they do ban live users, whether or not you're gold, silver, or farking platinum, you'll get banned.

[acemilo]

They will not brick consoles, so anyone thinking that can just forget it.  They will, however, completely block the hack and theres a strong chance that they will ban you from live.  There is a chance that they wont ban you tho, since if they block the hack, you can no longer play your "backups" so there would be no need to ban yet.  I do believe that this update will disable the hack tho.

[Serious Sam]

QUOTE(littlestevie360 @ May 27 2006, 10:19 PM)

bricking consoles would be illegal in australia as i the consumer actually own the hardware, if i choose that i want to change the code on the dvd drive its up to me i did not break a single law, as there are no copywrites in the firmware that say this is the IP of m$ and/or TS, also backups are legal in australia if you legally own the original. M$ also dont own the software that is the games except for those out of M$ game studios so it is upto the third party developers to block use of the firmware when m$ tell them how, the dash could be discontinued but then i have not seen 1 part in the terms and conditions that say that, live is the only piece of software that i can see it spelt out "use of and device to cheat in a game will result in a ban" but if im not mistaken the SS is a hash of the files and structure, meaning you alter a file and the SS is broken meaning only true backups will run on the system.

P.S: doesnt the DCMA allow for 1 backup copy if you legally own the original? if so M$ violate the DCMA by not allowing use of your legally owned backup, Remember these consoles have a history of damaging disks
littlestevie360
(back from my ban that was a result of getting in a "flame war" that my post said spelling wasnt everything and that i would refuse to participate in anymore flaming as it is pathetic and a waste of time and off topic)

You can read the DMCA online if you do a search on google. But to break it down in simple terms for you. The DMCA basically stated that you cannot circumvent a protection on copyrighted material in order to back it up.
Hence, if the media it's on has a copy protection you cannot reverse engineer the protection to back up the data.
Example: PS2 discs (as far as I know, I know you can easily back them up on a PC with no special software) do not have copy protection so they are legal to backup. Xbox games have a copy protection and are not legal to backup according to the DMCA.

I don't know anything about the laws in Austrailia but I do know that MS does own the code on the xbox and xbox 360 consoles. The code has protection for a reason. It is their proprietary code and they own the rights to it and only MS can license it or distribute it. Breaking this code and modifying it is not supported by MS. Now i assume if your country allows you to hack and crack whatever copyrighted material you want then it's up to you to also find a way to hack any updates MS makes in their code. Remember, regardless wether you are allowed to or not you chose to own a 360 and you chose to tamper with it so in the end it is up to you. MS isn't going to say, "It's OK, let Austrailia hack our shit, it's legal there so it's cool" NO! That's not happening..
You want to use thier console and play on their service then you have to abide by their rules even if your country says it's OK to do otherwise. Maybe you should set a petition for Australia to make their own gaming console with little or no protection and no copyrighted material, basiacally a free for all for everyone.
I'm not sure how many game developers will sign up to make games for it but you can try

[celicagt1993]

i don't really see MS bricking them either, but i do see a few things that are possible...  1. banning from live  2.  all future games will not play.  we know that future games can have updates on them, and all games have to be signed by MS, it is possible for MS to put updates/hash checks on the disk to check for modified f/w.  3.  since it is possible to flash the f/w from a computer, they COULD reflash it again.  if they do anything, i believe that it will be a mixture of all 3.  I do feel that banning from live probably won't happen that much.  is this cheating???  no, it doesn't give you any advantage in the game.  i could be wrong with this, but does the EULA for live say anything about modifying the system only or does it say something along the lines of "modifying equipment in order to cheat"?  (i don't know, i always press A/click agree/say what ever when ever i see one of those...)  if it is in that case, then i don't see people getting banned because they are not cheating.  but i do see future games/updates to not work...  if they can't flash the firmware a round about way of banning people from live would be to have a f/w check in the updates and not update the system unless the f/w is original, from there, you can't get on live anymore because you don't have the update.  then you have the possibility of people putting the original f/w back on, then updating, then flashing the f/w again.  from there, disable the xbox live during bootup if f/w hash doesn't check.  

since they were suppose to release the f/w a few days ago, but pulled it last min, i would almost put money on it that one of their techs ran to them and said "I'VE FIXED IT, I'VE FIXED IT!!!!!!  NOW WE CAN BLOCK THAT F/W!!!!!" and they pulled it to give time to rewrite something in the update to do what ever.

[rasstar]

QUOTE(Infamous @ May 27 2006, 06:08 PM)

actually it is legal here to do it... as long as you have only backups of your own games.. then yes, it would be illegal for M$ to kill your system.

You actually believe that? Just like the cable converters that allow you to view free cable. They said it's legal as long as you tell the cable company you are viewing the channels and you pay. I say Bull Shit...

QUOTE(constanboi @ May 27 2006, 06:10 PM)

I agree, and  I doubt MS will do that..

besides, why didnt they do it with xbox 1? i mean assuming its legal.. they probably would have done...

Xbox1 does not have the same security features as xbox 360

QUOTE(FreshOuttaMaps @ May 27 2006, 06:40 PM)

As much as it would suck, I don't see anything wrong if they would FRAG your system if it detected a non-stock firmware on your dvd drive on boot.  After all, you have made a non-supported configuration to your system, so it's not MS's fault if it doesn't work with their software.

Of course, you can always refuse the upgrade. On the other hand if they upgrade consoles without your consent, there would be major problems with that (in most places).

You can refuse the update but you wouldn't be able to use Live. Plus they can add the firmware to games and require an update to play.

QUOTE(sew3521 @ May 27 2006, 11:08 PM)

why wouldnt they this is the "must have" update with wanted features....Most ppl wont install the update if it wont do anythign special

I am 100% sure that the upgrade will be mandatory.

QUOTE(littlestevie360 @ May 28 2006, 03:19 AM)

bricking consoles would be illegal in australia as i the consumer actually own the hardware, if i choose that i want to change the code on the dvd drive its up to me i did not break a single law, as there are no copywrites in the firmware that say this is the IP of m$ and/or TS, also backups are legal in australia if you legally own the original. M$ also dont own the software that is the games except for those out of M$ game studios so it is upto the third party developers to block use of the firmware when m$ tell them how, the dash could be discontinued but then i have not seen 1 part in the terms and conditions that say that, live is the only piece of software that i can see it spelt out "use of and device to cheat in a game will result in a ban" but if im not mistaken the SS is a hash of the files and structure, meaning you alter a file and the SS is broken meaning only true backups will run on the system.

P.S: doesnt the DCMA allow for 1 backup copy if you legally own the original? if so M$ violate the DCMA by not allowing use of your legally owned backup, Remember these consoles have a history of damaging disks
littlestevie360
(back from my ban that was a result of getting in a "flame war" that my post said spelling wasnt everything and that i would refuse to participate in anymore flaming as it is pathetic and a waste of time and off topic)

I wouldn't call it bricking. If the fiirmware is not compatible with the update then whose fault is it? Definately not MS....

i wonder how many people are actually running this hack. My bet is that it's an extremely small amount.  Most of the people posting don't even have the hack or know how to do it.

[littlestevie360]

sir i ask you have you looked at the samsung code, i personnally know who was doing the code decompiling for the specialist for the samsung roms ("code impaler" if you are lost at who im refering to) anyway if my memory serves me correctly there are no copywrite notices in the firmware, but i may be mistaken and thinking of the 616E firmware (for those lost again thats the samsung in the xbox1) now without these copywrite notices it is legal to alter the firmware as it is not copywrited code. thats why it is legal to do this in australia

Australia is not covered by the DCMA and we dont have a law that says something that can break copywrite is illegal, Modchipping the xbox1 is legal in australia if you arent doing it for the purpose of piracy, now there is a bit of a grey area in out laws when it comes to back ups, its just not clearly spelt out and its damn confusing to say the least, but i know someone doing a Uni project on a dvd drive mod, using uni resources as expermental grounds, (uni or Univercity is like what the americans call college in the movies)

Littlestevie360

QUOTE(rasstar @ May 28 2006, 03:56 PM)

i wonder how many people are actually running this hack. My bet is that it's an extremely small amount.  Most of the people posting don't even have the hack or know how to do it.

i have a lot to do with team cavernimports and we actually have a few units modded up i know the process involved right down to paching the MTKflash util with the Vendor ID and Device ID of the SATA controller

[billy_dimashq]

i doubt they'll cause it to FRAG and even if they did, just unplug the bloody drive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i had my 360 running for about 2 months with no dvd drive physically present in it and it worked flawlessly (played demos off the hdd of course), bar the constant flashing of the power light (thinking the drive was ejecting the tray) and the gaping chasm where the drive bezel should've been!

if they implemented the check for a modified firmware, you could just remove the drive and see if the 360 boots. if it does, reflash with your original firmware (provided you've backed it up) and everything *should* be fine and dandy, shouldn't it?

in agreement with the above posts, i'm posting but my dvd fw isn't flashed because i don't need to do it (i can borrow any 360 games i want from my work so no point in copying or getting copies).

on this dodgy forum i'm on, there are guys selling pre-flashed machines for about £50 ontop of the retail price, so slightly more people than usual will own these, compared with the minute number who've actually put the work in themselves and modded their own fw

This post has been edited by billy_dimashq: May 28 2006, 09:37 AM

[RS727]

QUOTE(celicagt1993 @ May 28 2006, 06:12 AM)

if they do anything, i believe that it will be a mixture of all 3.  I do feel that banning from live probably won't happen that much.  is this cheating???  no, it doesn't give you any advantage in the game.

I doubt that would be the case, on xbox1 you were banned for having modified hardware, this is no different. Whether you cheat or not is not the issue, it's the fact that you've modified their hardware which may give you the opportunity to do things not supported by MS.

[mike96sc2]

Keep this in mind people who say MS can't brick your console.

You purchased the hardware, the hardware you own and can with what you please.

The Xbox360 Bios / OS is MS property, you don't own it, but you do have a license to use it.

If you don't believe me read the TOS you've agreed to during initial set-up.

When the TOS is agreed upon (for you to use the X360 software (dashboard, bios, games, etc) by the end user (ie. you) then you have agreed that if you violate any of these terms MS has the authority to disable the use of their software on your hardware.

This has zero to do with the ability to back-up games and what not, MS is basically saying, sure, go ahead and back up your games, but don't expect to be allowed to run them using our software.

Lastly, all the "We don't have the DMCA" or the "I'm in Australia" arguments are done as of right there. Read the above, if you still don't understand why and what MS can do LEGALLY then maybe you need to keep quiet.

One last note, MS has disabled at the end-user level in the past. Pirated Office 2000 users were shut out of the programs when SP1 was updated. I wouldn't be surprised if when Vista arrives XP users who are on pirate machines lose the ability to boot up in a push for a Vista license instead.