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[ChrisF]

QUOTE(Deftech @ Mar 27 2006, 11:13 PM)

I highly doubt anything I meet at a gate will die that quickly.

For shits sake the damn timberwolves are harder now. Black bears take forever to kill. If gate monsters are a lot easier, something is flawed with this game.

Minotaurs are nasty too, damn those things to hell and back.

I don't have this game but there's a really interesting conversation about issues with the leveling system over at the Elderscrolls forums.  Some feel that one of the problems with everything matching your level is that you can do things you normally shouldn't be able to do as an untrained newb in the real (i.e. vampire slaying, arena champion, etc...).  Basically it should take some time before people get to that stage.  

Of course the real issue is that the game is supposed to be non-linear so you can start the main quest at level 1 or level 30 after you mess around for a while.  Problem here is that the NCPs who are sometimes involved in the main quest don't level while all the monsters and opponents do.  So here you are trying to protect someone on a misson or lead a few people and their level 5 equivalent selves get slaughtered by your level 30 opponents making an 'escort' type quest very hard simply because the NPCs die instantly due to the calibur of your foes.  The other side is that you can level a thief/stealth type charater fairly high and not be all that much of an offensive force.  Now you start the main quest and get routed because you fight like level 5 yet you are a level 30 thief and your opponents fight at level 30.  Basically this introduces an element of preferable linearity to a non-linear game.

Of course there's also the take on multitudes of ultra dangerous high level monsters inhabiting sewers in highly populated and well guarded cities that adds some unbelievability along with the fact that an ultra experienced and powerful warrior should be able to deal with common woodland animals and threats fairly easily.

I'd venture something might be getting patched and updated there as some of this goes against what Bethesda tries to achieve in their games.  However, for now there are actually some issues with leveling up indiscriminantly in that fairly easy quests can become very difficult to complete in some scenarios.

[Deftech]

QUOTE(ChrisF @ Mar 27 2006, 06:31 PM)

I don't have this game but there's a really interesting conversation about issues with the leveling system over at the Elderscrolls forums.  Some feel that one of the problems with everything matching your level is that you can do things you normally shouldn't be able to do as an untrained newb in the real (i.e. vampire slaying, arena champion, etc...).  Basically it should take some time before people get to that stage.  

Of course the real issue is that the game is supposed to be non-linear so you can start the main quest at level 1 or level 30 after you mess around for a while.  Problem here is that the NCPs who are sometimes involved in the main quest don't level while all the monsters and opponents do.  So here you are trying to protect someone on a misson or lead a few people and their level 5 equivalent selves get slaughtered by your level 30 opponents making an 'escort' type quest very hard simply because the NPCs die instantly due to the calibur of your foes.  The other side is that you can level a thief/stealth type charater fairly high and not be all that much of an offensive force.  Now you start the main quest and get routed because you fight like level 5 yet you are a level 30 thief and your opponents fight at level 30.  Basically this introduces an element of preferable linearity to a non-linear game.

Of course there's also the take on multitudes of ultra dangerous high level monsters inhabiting sewers in highly populated and well guarded cities that adds some unbelievability along with the fact that an ultra experienced and powerful warrior should be able to deal with common woodland animals and threats fairly easily.

I'd venture something might be getting patched and updated there as some of this goes against what Bethesda tries to achieve in their games.  However, for now there are actually some issues with leveling up indiscriminantly in that fairly easy quests can become very difficult to complete in some scenarios.

if that is the case, Ill stop playing altogether until, its fixed, if ever.

maybe thats why I have scrolls that "heal others", never thought about that until now.

has anyone here beaten the main quest? I wanted to make my way thru the mages guild and become powerful and tackle it afterwards, but maybe thats a bad idea afterall. This is why I liked Fable, less thought was needed  

[lowendfrequency]

It was my understanding that NPC's also leveled with you.  The way it was explained to me is that the NPCs as well as monsters had their levels set as  X + or - Y.     X being your current level and Y being the offset.  So if I was a level 12, and the NPC was an X - 4, then he would be a level 8.   As I increased in level, so would he... but always 4 levels below... so the challenge of protecting him or fighting others always stays the same.

[ChrisF]

QUOTE(lowendfrequency @ Mar 28 2006, 03:09 PM)

It was my understanding that NPC's also leveled with you.  The way it was explained to me is that the NPCs as well as monsters had their levels set as  X + or - Y.     X being your current level and Y being the offset.  So if I was a level 12, and the NPC was an X - 4, then he would be a level 8.   As I increased in level, so would he... but always 4 levels below... so the challenge of protecting him or fighting others always stays the same.

From reading a decently long thread there in one of the forums, whatever leveling does happen (if any) isn't nearly enough and can result in significant imbalances.  The particular issues I listed up above were referenced and generally agreed with (if not in spirit than in the existance of a potential issue).  But this game is new, I don't have it so I can't confirm anything myself, and being a big Morrowind fan I just read through some info and figured I'd relate it.  That said, there's new info popping up all the time.  I think there's a 10+ page leveling thread which came up in the past day or so.  The official Elder Scrolls forums are pretty solid although a lot of people obviously will be using the PC version: http://elderscrolls....orums/?Cat=&C=1

[lowendfrequency]

QUOTE(ChrisF @ Mar 28 2006, 09:30 AM)

From reading a decently long thread there in one of the forums, whatever leveling does happen (if any) isn't nearly enough and can result in significant imbalances.  The particular issues I listed up above were referenced and generally agreed with (if not in spirit than in the existance of a potential issue).  But this game is new, I don't have it so I can't confirm anything myself, and being a big Morrowind fan I just read through some info and figured I'd relate it.  That said, there's new info popping up all the time.  I think there's a 10+ page leveling thread which came up in the past day or so.  The official Elder Scrolls forums are pretty solid although a lot of people obviously will be using the PC version: http://elderscrolls....orums/?Cat=&C=1

There is definatly a potential for big imbalances with the system.  However, I think they result from the user not fully understanding the leveling system and or not choosing the appropriate major skills.   Let's say I chose sneak, marksman, blunt, heavy armor and illusion as my major skills.  Then if I never used any of those skills but instead always used swords, light armor and destruction magic... I'd obviously start the game out at a disadvantage because I'd have low levels for those skills.  But over time, I would level up in those skills that I used most. My character however, wouldn't level himself up quite as fast since the major skills are sitting unused.   Eventually you may be a level 60 for blade, but only a level2 character.  While your strength and health will be fairly low... so will the enemies.  A couple good whacks with your nasty sword skills and you should always win because the game is unbalanced.

That's why it's always good to plan your character out before hand and make sure your major skills are the ones that you will actually use and need.

[Strangelove1]

The leveling in this game is definitely very frustrating.  I'm a level 15 mage/warrior and I consistently get the living shit beat out of me by everything.  I block, then attack, cast spells etc, but I almost always have to revert to running away, healing up, and coming back.  It doesn't make any sense.  I might just start a new character even though I don't want to.

[Hyper_Eye]

I am going to explain a few things and hopefully I can make it easily understandable. First I will address the issue of how creatures and NPC's level.

There is some major misinformation out there. People have come to believe (through word-of-mouth I am sure) that everything in the game levels with you. This is simply not true. There are two different things happening when you gain levels as far as this goes and there is a big difference between the two. I will explain them seperately.

The first method I will explain is called a leveled list. For all the creatures using a leveled list they will always be the same level. When you see a regular rat it will always be level 1 whether you are level 1 or level 30. When you gain levels the game will start spawning creatures that will present more of a challenge for your level based on a list of creatures within your level range. That does not mean that the earlier level creatures will not be spawning anymore. There will still be rats when you are fighting timber wolves. And those rats will be extremely easy to kill. The majority of creatures in the game work this way. You will notice this particularly in dungeons. If you go in a dungeon at level 1 and then again at 20 there will be completely different creatures in it. But, those particularl creatures will always be a certain level. So, say a Zombie is level 5 (This is a guess. I don't have the list in front of me.) You KNOW that a regular zombie is going to be level 5 everytime you see it. I hope this makes sense.

The second method is the one everybody refers to but it dosn't work quite the way everyone thinks. That is the idea that things level with you. When you see an NPC that has leveled with you it is not necessarily going to be the same level as you. They level relative to your level... not to the same level. You are not the same level as a guard. A regular guard is 10 levels above you. Most NPC's level this way.

That is how that works. Now... a few things about leveling layed out as simply as possible.

1) It requires advancemant in major skills 10 times (in any combination) to level. Say blades and light-armor are two of your majors. If you raise blades 5 ponts and light-armor 5 points you will level. If you raise blades 10 points you will level. If you raise blades 3 points and light-armor 7 you will level.

2) Minor skills do not help you level whatsoever. But, they are still important as they contribute to your stat modifier equally to your major skills. If you raise a minor skill 1 your modifier will increase by 1. If you raise a major by 1 your modifier will increase by 1.

3) If you are ready to level you cannot increase your modifier for that level anymore. Any increases in skills are going to be applied to the next level.

4) If you do not rest to level then levels can stack. If you have increased enough majors to level 5 times then the next 5 times you sleep you will level. The modifier for each level is going to be correct for each level. The beneift to not leveling is to keep simple creatures in the world and keep NPC's from leveling. The downfall is that it will be a lot more difficult to determine what your modifiers are going to be.

5) NPC's that level with you are not affected by your stats or your modifiers. If you level with all +5 modifiers effectively giving you a total +15 you just gained a lot more with that level then the NPC's did. If you got crap for modifiers then that NPC may have gotten more out of the level. This means that with bad modifiers you can find yourself too weak to do anything later in the game. This is easily fixed by adjusting the difficulty slider but if you don't want to do that you need to pay attention to your levels and what stats you are increasing.

That is about it for now. I can go into detail about the whole +5 mod deal and how it should be dealt with if someone would like.

[Strangelove1]

Thanks for the info.  Good post.  I think I'm going to see if I have a save game from a few days ago so I don't have to start completely over but can at least not get totally freaking annihilated and level up intelligently.  It is too bad that you have to deliberately manage your level ups to stay competitive.  It adds a managerial function to the game that is awkward.

[lowendfrequency]

Hyper Eye,

Good writeup, I think that will help clear up alot of confusion.  I have one question about the modifiers though.  If leveling major skills is the only way to level your character, and if major skills top out at 100, then wouldn't you be theoretically be placing a low level cap on your character by using large modifiers all the time?  You would max out the major skills and prevent your character from leveling up... therefor locking the players HP, MG and FT in place, correct?

[Hyper_Eye]

QUOTE

Hyper Eye,

Good writeup, I think that will help clear up alot of confusion. I have one question about the modifiers though. If leveling major skills is the only way to level your character, and if major skills top out at 100, then wouldn't you be theoretically be placing a low level cap on your character by using large modifiers all the time? You would max out the major skills and prevent your character from leveling up... therefor locking the players HP, MG and FT in place, correct?

Think about it. Lets say that it did cause you to have a lower level cap on your character (not an issue but lets say this to make this point.) Lets say that you max at 40 and got a total of +15 modifiers (5 per stat) for every level. Another character maxes at level 45 but he only got +6 modifiers (+2 per stat which is very realistic if you carelessly level.) That character is going to have much lower stats at level 45 then you have at 40. Who is the more powerful character? This also assumes that while leveling meticulously you don't max your stats before you are done leveling. In that case there is no question of what the better route to go is. Remember that you can master your skills even when you can't level anymore.

There are people who understand this system better then I do but I have not seen an extremely solid and easy to understand writeup on it yet. If I do I will refer to it. But, don't take what I am saying as the 100% corrrect way. What I am saying reflects the idea of this method but not absolutely how it should be used in practice. The idea is to have a major in every category. They should be easy to control skills like alchemy or conjuration. Skills that are not as easy to control like Athletics should be minors. This allows you to control when you level while having an easy time to get the minors you need. Level what you need for the +5 modifiers in 3 categorys then sleep. It is pretty simple really.

One thing I forgot to mention. I would recommend getting +5's in END until it is maxed starting from the beginning. The higher your endurance the higher increase you are going to get in HP when you level. Once it is maxed you are going to continually get the max HP gain for every level after that. So, if you can, start rasing END right from the start until it is maxed.

[lowendfrequency]

QUOTE(Hyper_Eye @ Mar 28 2006, 05:18 PM)

No. That is what building your minors is for. You can maximize your level while maximizing your stat gains at the same time. You have to get 10 advancements in majors to level no matter how you manage it. If you want to get +5 modifiers in 3 stats you will need 3 advancements in majors in two of those and 4 in another. The rest should be minors. So... lets say you want to raise STR, WIS, and END +5 for the next level.

STR:

+2 minor
+3 major

END:

+2 minor
+3 major

WIS:

+1 minor
+4major

This will give you 5 in each of those and allow you to level. Advancing only those and leaving the rest alone means that you aren't wasting any for the level. Keep in mind that once your level is maxed you can still advance all your minors to max. You just can't level or raise your stats anymore. Since you can always max your minors the primary goal is to get your stats as high as possible before you can't level anymore.

This system is not for everyone. You do not have to do this to play the game. But, you will have an easier time when you are at the higher levels if you play this way.

Now, let me respond more directly to what you said.
Think about it. Lets say that it did cause you to have a lower level cap on your character (not an issue but lets say this to make this point.) Lets say that you max at 40 and got a total of +15 modifiers (5 per stat) for every level. Another character maxes at level 45 but he only got +6 modifiers (+2 per stat which is very realistic if you carelessly level.) That character is going to have much lower stats at level 45 then you have at 40. Who is the more powerful character? This also assumes that while leveling meticulously you don't max your stats before you are done leveling. In that case there is no question of what the better route to go is. Remember that you can master your skills even when you can't level anymore.

There are people who understand this system better then I do but I have not seen an extremely solid and easy to understand writeup on it yet. If I do I will refer to it. But, don't take what I am saying as the 100% corrrect way. What I am saying reflects the idea of this method but not absolutely how it should be used in practice. The idea is to have a major in every category. They should be easy to control skills like alchemy or conjuration. Skills that are not as easy to control like Athletics should be minors. This allows you to control when you level while having an easy time to get the minors you need. Level what you need for the +5 modifiers in 3 categorys then sleep. It is pretty simple really.

One thing I forgot to mention. I would recommend getting +5's in END until it is maxed starting from the beginning. The higher your endurance the higher increase you are going to get in HP when you level. Once it is maxed you are going to continually get the max HP gain for every level after that. So, if you can, start rasing END right from the start until it is maxed.

Ahh I see now... so for that character to be capped early could actually be a good thing.  Thanks for the clarification.

[Hyper_Eye]

That is true. But, realize that it is not going to lower your level cap. 10 major advancements = 1 level no matter how you slice it. You will reach the same level either way. The question is what your stats look like when you get there. That is why I said that my example was a hypothetical.

[davinator456]

QUOTE(ChrisF @ Mar 27 2006, 05:31 PM)

I don't have this game but there's a really interesting conversation about issues with the leveling system over at the Elderscrolls forums.

Sure there will be problems with the leveling system gbut i love it.  I was so pissed in morrowind, because my character was so strong that i could kill every creature in one swift blow.

I was forced to kill vivec and all the harder people that were supposedly on your side.  still not much of a challenge.

Now no matter how strong i get, I can have a challenge.

Plus tou can adjust the difficulty to make the game REALLY hard or REALLY easy.

[Deftech]

I'll tell you how the Oblivion missions are when I tackle them in a few months   I could spend a year just running around doing sidequests, this game is enormous.

Is it dark in Oblivion? I am under the impression its always dark, amd I incorrect?

[Hyper_Eye]

I found it too dark in high def as well. Then I tweaked the brightness slider. No problems.