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[gainpresence]

To the first poster... that's cool and all for a movie/book (Fight Club), but those were the views of an Insane person (possibly mixed a bit with the views of a cool writer but dumb guy: Chuck Palahniuk).

To the first post of MXA: You got the second quarter of that verse right, but it conveys a completely different message when you look at the entire verse:

1st Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

On another note, since when have Catholics been moral or Biblical?  

Bonk/Lizard: Adam and Eve weren't born (in the modern sense) at all   . When they were created, they were PERFECT in every way, but by THEIR OWN CHOICE, they sinned, and thus started the "sin nature" thing..

Of course, God knew it was going to happen, but he still gave them the choice.. sort of a paradox I suppose, plenty of those in your science (evolution) as well as physics and math.

I'm out (I hope   ).

[Lizard_King]

QUOTE (gainpresence @ Apr 25 2003, 12:43 AM)

On another note, since when have Catholics been moral or Biblical?

I always wonder why it is that evangelicals and protestants feel so threatened by Catholics that they must bash them constantly.  My sister, a born again Christian, does the same shit, and it makes me sick.  It is little wonder that Christians nowadays don't even have the political leverage to stop public schools from teaching homosexuality as orthodoxy; they can't stop picking on each other and realize that their similarities far outweigh their differences.

But that is neither here nor there.

QUOTE

Bonk/Lizard: Adam and Eve weren't born (in the modern sense) at all  . When they were created, they were PERFECT in every way, but by THEIR OWN CHOICE, they sinned, and thus started the "sin nature" thing.. Of course, God knew it was going to happen, but he still gave them the choice.. sort of a paradox I suppose, plenty of those in your science (evolution) as well as physics and math. I'm out (I hope  ).

"My" science and evolution?  

I am actually very familiar with the Adam and Eve story, and it begs a number of questions in its own right.  If a parent leaves a wondrous, dangerous item (for no reason than to test) before his child, specifically warning it not to touch the item, do you blame the child for hurting itself or the parent for setting up such an absurd situation?  Why was the apple there in the first place?

Assuming it happened as you say, what is the logic in the child being punished for the sins of his ancestors?  Why are we cursed to repeat their mistakes?  

If God is good and omnipotent, why does evil exist, particularly in a form that is so appealing to man's nature?  If he is good but is unable to stop evil, then he is not omnipotent.  If he is omnipotent but chooses not to stop it, then he is not good.  Either way, he is not God.

[Majinbuu]

QUOTE (mathman @ Apr 24 2003, 01:28 AM)

I't's rediculous. Right? Where's the proof? Might as well be a dragon in the sky. Christian here. Not for longthough. On the verge of conversion. Looking for proof. Anyone out there? Help me. Give me knowledge. God is a hallucination. A result of a thorough brainwash. The ability to reason rules supreme. Higher than any GOD. Convince me. Teach me spirituality. RELIGION = BLINDFAITH. Proof?. Where?. Oh just another Jahova's Witness. In practice and theory, everyone is an ATHEIST. Think. Christians: People make their own Christianity. Bible = Koran = Talmud = RELIGION = Tool(Not the band). "Religion is a means for people to achieve perfection". Why not ACADEMICS? MORALITY does not equal religion, but perception. As does everything else. Red or blue? It's perception. No one is right except for who you choose to percieve as right. Input is welcome. Ignorance is not. FAITH = BLINDFAITH. Sheep or INTELLIGENCE? You choose. Free will. Individuality. RELIGION = CONFLICT = CONTRADICTION = FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, and FALSEHOOD.

God Dammit i hate ppl like you....do you know how long this fucking thread is gonna be? Possibly hundreds of replies...

I move that we merge this with the past thread on religion, since this will only be a restatment of what was already said.

[Larg0]

QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 24 2003, 06:51 PM)

QUOTE (Larg0 @ Apr 24 2003, 05:13 PM) Religion is the opiate of the masses. ...said the founder of one of the most corrosive "secular" religions mankind has ever encountered.  You don't see a little irony in that?

Communism was a really good idea but humanity was not ready for it. They will not be for some while. I see a parrallel here with the acceptance tat religion is losing it's need in the world.

So long,
Larg0

[kris]

QUOTE (bonk @ Apr 24 2003, 12:34 PM)

First of all, I'd like to say I'm not a huge expert on this stuff, there are plenty of better resources.  I'll just try to sum up some of what I've learned. It's easy for people to say that believing in God can only be done in faith and that there is no evidence.  While faith in God is important, there is evidence. Let's take the position of the Earth for example.  The earth is located in one of the spiral points in the milky way galaxy, just on the edge of the spiral.  This is one of the few points where many of the stars and planets are not being shifted around a lot, it is one of the more stable points.  Most of the other stars end up going in and out of the spirals, coliding and such.  In our solar system, the earth is at just the right distance to keep us nicely warm but not too hot.  The angle of rotation keeps the seasons going and some other factors.  The moon helps to regulate that angle and the rotation (to prevent the earth from not spinning).  There are other things, but this just shows how super slight of a margin it is for the earth to be positioned the way it is.  And then for it to have an atmosphere and sustain life? It's almost like someone had put it here on purpose. As for religion, it's probably most certain that some are created to control people.  Many religions have branched off of each other because of the nature of people to be different and such.  But I do believe there is one true religion, Christianity.  Now, I feel that many forms of Christianity have gone away from how it was established.  Catholicism and others put a lot of emphasis on works and how many can do good to get into heaven, which is not what is told in the Bible.   The Bible tells of how man, since Adam and Eve, is born evil.  God created "the Law" to describe what is called sin (yeah, people don't like that word).  Sin is anything that is disapproved by God and is sepate from God.  Every person's true nature is to sin.  In the old testiment period, people would offer sacrifices in the form of sheep etc to pay for their sin.  They knew they had done wrong and something had to be done about it. It wasn't until around 4-6 bc that the ultimate sacrifice for sin was born, Jesus Christ.  Unknowing to his followers at the time, Jesus would become the one final sacrifice for all sin.  Jesus, which is a part of God and was sent by God, humbled himself and became a man.  As a part of God, he could not sin.  So his death through the cross proved to be the perfect sacrifice.  He who had no sin came into the world to pay for the sin. But he did not stop there, on the third day he was raised from the grave and showed himself to many.  His return showed that sin was defeated. Christianity is different than other religions in that it is not about going to church, doing good things or being a good person.  It's all about establishing a relationship with God and Jesus Christ.  Other religions says that being a good person and doing good are what's needed to live on, but with Christianity, it's about the relationship.  We have all sinned and done wrong, which separates us from God, therefore we must turn from our ways and accept Jesus and God as the savior and only true living God.   Now, there is historical evidence that Jesus was resurrected and returned, this also separates Christianity from other religions.  Several points include: 1. Empty Tomb -- No one could produce a body after the disciples claimed he had risen 2. Eye Witness Accounts -- Outside of the Bible, a Jewish man called Jesphus (sp?) (an opposer to Christianity) wrote about him and also a roman soldier (can't think of the name right now) mentioned him not long after all of this. 3. Lives changed -- Paul and other people dramatically changed their lives AFTER the ressurction, which showed that there was something to this man named Jesus. I think that's it

I think you did a wonderfull summing up of it all.

I also agree with you saying that you

QUOTE

It's all about establishing a relationship with God and Jesus Christ.

I think thats bang on.

Its not about doing good deeds or going to church. Its about your relationship.

Some people just express differently.

Awesome Job!!!!!!!!

[M3_DeL]

QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 24 2003, 10:51 AM)

QUOTE (Larg0 @ Apr 24 2003, 05:13 PM) Religion is the opiate of the masses. ...said the founder of one of the most corrosive "secular" religions mankind has ever encountered.  You don't see a little irony in that? QUOTE very few things can be considered factual when it comes religion, but I will say this: Fact #1 - There are hundreds upon hundreds of 'recognized' religions in the world that are range from almost indentically similar to completely different. Fact #2 - The majority of these differences/similarities stem from the cultures, conditions, events or environments in which they were formed. Fact #3 - No one religion can be considered more correct or incorrect than another, as there can be no objective standard from which to judge. The moral of the story here is if you do not care to be judged or criticized for your religous beliefs, do not judge or criticize others for theirs. There is nothing worse than being 'preached at' in an effort to convert. The only standard I consider legitimate is the standard of material consequences of a faith.  I believe such a utilitarian/materialist approach is the only sort of moral judgement I am willing to pass in terms of religion.  For instance, I do not consider a religion that treats women as chattel to be the moral equivalent of one that merely denies them access to the priesthood.  Neither is wholly in keeping with my moral code, but one is a whole hell of a lot closer and therefore morally superior, imnsho. Cultural evolutionism brings us back to nature vs nurture again, and I think just as ignoring genetics would be foolish in determining what constitutes personality (for instance), ignoring what made up each religious faith as a comparative standard is wrong.   QUOTE M3_Del  Why are we repeating topics already covered! The starter of this topic just needs to do a little search and he can see what has been covered in this.....Hell anyone remember my Howard Stern post that turned into the first real religous debate.....from there it all went downhill!!! Not everything should build on what was there before.  Just because you feel like you've been there, done that, does not make this any less legitimate of a topic for others.  Unlike xbox tech questions, this is wholly a matter of opinion and debate, and therefore new perspectives and threads are perfectly reasonable additions. QUOTE None the less this post is obviously here to try and start Sh*t.... More than *your* post in this thread?  I disagree.

Uh......................Sure..........



By the way a wise mnn told me cookies are the opiates of the masses

[M3_DeL]

QUOTE (Majinbuu @ Apr 24 2003, 05:55 PM)

QUOTE (mathman @ Apr 24 2003, 01:28 AM) I't's rediculous. Right? Where's the proof? Might as well be a dragon in the sky. Christian here. Not for longthough. On the verge of conversion. Looking for proof. Anyone out there? Help me. Give me knowledge. God is a hallucination. A result of a thorough brainwash. The ability to reason rules supreme. Higher than any GOD. Convince me. Teach me spirituality. RELIGION = BLINDFAITH. Proof?. Where?. Oh just another Jahova's Witness. In practice and theory, everyone is an ATHEIST. Think. Christians: People make their own Christianity. Bible = Koran = Talmud = RELIGION = Tool(Not the band). "Religion is a means for people to achieve perfection". Why not ACADEMICS? MORALITY does not equal religion, but perception. As does everything else. Red or blue? It's perception. No one is right except for who you choose to percieve as right. Input is welcome. Ignorance is not. FAITH = BLINDFAITH. Sheep or INTELLIGENCE? You choose. Free will. Individuality. RELIGION = CONFLICT = CONTRADICTION = FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, and FALSEHOOD. God Dammit i hate ppl like you....do you know how long this fucking thread is gonna be? Possibly hundreds of replies... I move that we merge this with the past thread on religion, since this will only be a restatment of what was already said.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Foe-hammer]

QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 24 2003, 11:56 PM)

In any case, why would God need to go through all these complex rituals to rid us of sin? Couldn't an omniscient, omnipotent entity simply snap its metaphorical fingers and rid us of sin?

There is laws irrevocably decreed in the heavens and earths that no one can break.  Some one had to pay the price for sin; there is an opposite and equal reaction to every action.  And because "no unclean being can enter the presence of God", without a savior no one could return back to that being who made them.  Only a savior, one who was without sin, could pay the price of sin.

QUOTE

If God is good and omnipotent, why does evil exist, particularly in a form that is so appealing to man's nature?

Having to choose between good and evil is all part of His divine plan for us, His children.  How else would we grow and learn from our mistakes if everyone was in a state of innocence?  Learning self control over our carnal desires is how we perfect ourselves; humble ourselves.  This life is but a training grounds to prove ourselves herein for the life to come.  There is indeed a purose to our earthly existance.

[SupeRdUPErBlakE]

QUOTE (johnnobts @ Apr 24 2003, 07:05 AM)

I'm a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, lived a perfect life, died a sinner's death on the cross to pay for our sins, and rose again on the third day, conquering sin and death...  I would also argue Christianity does not require a person to check their brains out at the door.  After all, Christ calls for us to love the Lord with all our Heart, Mind, and Strength.  If you would like to read up on some "intellegent Christians," read works by: C.S. Lewis, Norman Geisler, Alvin Plantiga, and Josh McDowell

Same here.  Jesus set me free.  

[SupeRdUPErBlakE]

You guys are just to ignorant to look at the facts....There is more proof of Jesus and his times and bible times that it was real then any other religion on the face of the eath. There is proof to every bit of it. If you read it, it goes step by step through time, starting in the beginning where God made the universe and earth. And its obvious evolution isnt real, its been completely proved wrong from time nad time again. Every scientist that has ever gone into a deep study of if the bible was real ended up being christian because there ARE no falses. Only facts. And if you looked into it you would see the same. Now whoever would believe the bible is completely fake then there so retarded because there are hundreds of thousands of incidents in it through history that have proved completely true. Maybe its hard to believe because its all supernatural and all, but once you do your life will begin to change, once you take jesus into your heart you learn that there is only one way, and thats to Jesus.

[SupeRdUPErBlakE]

QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 25 2003, 12:29 PM)

And gain, I know you were just kidding, but you know how there is a grain of truth in every jest?  I'm sorry I flew off the handle a bit, it is just that I see Christians as a very potent force for good in America, if they could just stop pointing fingers at one another.  I've even found Jehovah's Witnesses to be really wonderful people once I get past the fact that I had to answer my door for them.  But when I ask them what they think about other Christians, particularly Catholics, you'd think I'd asked them about Satanists.

Yeah I don't know why most christians would do that....were all one body....so why turn against eachother just because we're a little different? Grrr. God didn't intend for that.

[Novahux]

) get over this region debate already.

Religion is perfectly understandable.
There is only one phrase that human beings have trouble saying more than "I'm sorry",
And that is,"I don't know"

Do you think early tribal leaders of human groups would have had any authority if they continually said ,"I don't know" every time someone asked them a question about the sky, moon, sun, Birth, death, dreams etc.

Religion = Control  = Power = Corruption

Religion is just one of many bigotries mankind is cursed with until we evolve into something more intelligent.  

[SupeRdUPErBlakE]

QUOTE (Novahux @ Apr 25 2003, 01:23 PM)

For GODS sake (excuse the pun ) get over this region debate already. Religion is perfectly understandable. There is only one phrase that human beings have trouble saying more than "I'm sorry", And that is,"I don't know" Do you think early tribal leaders of human groups would have had any authority if they continually said ,"I don't know" every time someone asked them a question about the sky, moon, sun, Birth, death, dreams etc. Religion = Control  = Power = Corruption Religion is just one of many bigotries mankind is cursed with until we evolve into something more intelligent.

But how would we evolve if there is no such thing as evolution?  

[Foe-hammer]

QUOTE (SupeRdUPErBlakE @ Apr 25 2003, 12:49 PM)

And its obvious evolution isnt real, its been completely proved wrong from time nad time again.

It is not obvious.  Evolutions does exist.  If you did any study in the biological field, you would know that evolutions has, and still does happen.  Maybe not in the drastic sense that science proscribes, but none the less, it is a viable fact.  Every living organism has a basic blue print; just look at the DNA of anything, and that goes for single cell organisms, they are almost identical.  This, i believe, is Gods blue print for creation.

[SupeRdUPErBlakE]

QUOTE (Foe-hammer @ Apr 25 2003, 05:21 PM)

QUOTE (SupeRdUPErBlakE @ Apr 25 2003, 12:49 PM) And its obvious evolution isnt real, its been completely proved wrong from time nad time again. It is not obvious.  Evolutions does exist.  If you did any study in the biological field, you would know that evolutions has, and still does happen.  Maybe not in the drastic sense that science proscribes, but none the less, it is a viable fact.  Every living organism has a basic blue print; just look at the DNA of anything, and that goes for single cell organisms, they are almost identical.  This, i believe, is Gods blue print for creation.

OK....Yes I agree. I guess in a sence, things do change a little.....but like....Monkeys to Humans= Impossible, and not real. If that were the case, all monkeys by now would be humans....