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[N00bvin]

QUOTE (Snakers @ Feb 7 2003, 06:19 PM)

Religion is a form of control that a government uses to control people.

Not so much the case anymore, but it does have its influence.

BTW, I notice your avatar (and I don't want to make an assumption)... are you anti-religion, or "God forbid"    a Satanist?

Not directed toward you... but that "religion" is just a silly.  There IS good and evil, but there is no devil and there is no God.  (Remember kids, the important thing to remember about this conversation is that it is opinion).

Many of us now lead "blurred" lives.  Bagel says he is a Christian and a firm believer... but I have to wonder how many song he's downloaded... or Xbox games?  Is that an "evil" thing?  In my opinion no... but in some opinions it is stealing (technically it is as well).  Stealing is a sin and sins are evil, so by that rational, Bagel would be evil and not a very good Christian.  

I myself have dabbled in some downloading and ... gasp... even looked at pr0n.  Am I evil... conveniently, in my opinion... no.  I do a LOT of good things.  I work for charities, I give gobs of money... non for recognition, I just like helping my fellow man.  

George Bush is a "religious man" but he is about to send a bunch of people to there death... American and Iraqi.  Does he think he is going to hell?  ...makes me wonder...

[Snakers]

every religion can be taught, it cant be practiced.  its more or less a history of the world.  buddhism, catholisim, christianity, etc.  they can all be taught in compare and contrast ways, however, once you step out of line and say one is better than the other or try and make a student follow one, or do independent research on it, thats when you cross the line.  it is a very fine line indeed.  one which is feared to be tread often.

[vincent_y79]

QUOTE (N00bvin @ Feb 7 2003, 09:36 PM)

I don't want to convince others, exactly, but to open dialogue on both sides. Let me stress that point too... if you have a belief, then believe... do not try to push your "opinion" on others.  I state clearly that my thoughts and beliefs are just that MINE... I will not call your house or knock on your door (though some do) to talk you into believing what I believe. Unfortunately the Muslim extremist believe that if I don't believe, then I should DIE.  Well, excuse me if that is not a fucked way of thinking.

I totally agree with this. Although I think its okay to tell someone your belief and maybe even try to convince them but don't shove it in their face. Don't go killing someone that doesn't see things the same as you do. It goes with the gay community. Its fine if you're gay but that rub that in my face. Don't make it your excuse to act like an ass.

As far as extremist goes; They're all scary. Extremist in the animal rights activist. Extremist in the environmental movement.  Extremist makes me want to kill them. They want to tell us what to eat (no meat) what to wear (no leather) where to even freaking live. Kill em KILL EM ALL.

[Snakers]

QUOTE (N00bvin @ Feb 8 2003, 03:47 AM)

BTW, I notice your avatar (and I don't want to make an assumption)... are you anti-religion, or "God forbid"    a Satanist?

more or less, im an athiest or agnostic (i always get the 2 mixed up).  i dont believe in, or disprove that there is or is not a god.  i dont have enough proof to decide wether one exsists or not, so i dont choose.

as for my avatar, its just a symbol off the cd of a band that i like

[Ace25]

Ya, I am not a tree huggin hippie, I recycle mainly because it is one small positive thing I can do for the environment. I think the movie "Matrix" painted humans better than any other analogy, we are a virus, out of control, and are destroying our own living conditions.. I know it will not kill mother earth, we will die off like the dinosaurs, earth will heal itself over many millenia, and a new species will evolve.. its happened once in the history of earth, nothing says it cant happen again.. and look exaclty how much we RELY on what the extinct species have givin us, all the oil, which we so thoughfully wasted like no one else can, and will be depleted in 75 years tops, 50yrs is more reasonable.. Damn, millions of years of life, death, life again, evolution, and in 200 years we pretty much will have sucked up all the recycled life from an era before humans.. amazing to think about, sickening more like it. I guess this is why my primary interest has/is/always will be in space travel, more currently, space propulsion systems.. to maybe someday get away from all the craziness .. what a pipe dream.. but we all have fantasies, mine are about leaving earth though than women, and not by eating pudding for drinking punch and waiting to hop on the next comet.. I mean developing an ant-imatter reactor, helping break the speed of light, mapping out the human genome (which DNA resequencing will be required if we wish to be able to live on other, less hospitable planets, and that may be out only option someday... who knows).

One thing I differ a little on from you Vin is that I have a lot less patience with "religious" people. I honestly cant stand a word about how god will save me.. it all sickens me, god, jesus, allah, budha (which I agree is not as terrible for being organized), Shiva (6 armed woman created life? anyone else thinking alien theory?) Why people are so hopeless with themselves that the only way they can decipher right&wrong is by seeking out guidance from faith, god, etc, rather than take resposiblity for themselves is beyond me.. Religion is a scapegoat for peoples problems and also the solution for some, although, I am possitive that if organized religion solved someones problems, there is at least 2 other non religious solutions to the same problem..

Anyone else having a hard time posting? This sucks.. like 10 retries so far...

[Snakers]

if you actually go through and read the bible....everythign contradicts its self.  there are many things.

think about this, adam and eve are created to populate the world.  
chrisitian = premarital sex = sin
adam and eve werent married.
to spread population, it would lead a whoe line of incest.
noah's arc.  everything and everyone but a male and female of each species was wipped out.  to get where we are today it would be an extremely long line of incest.  i would be related to every one of you.

[bagel5009]

QUOTE (N00bvin @ Feb 8 2003, 02:47 AM)

Many of us now lead "blurred" lives.  Bagel says he is a Christian and a firm believer... but I have to wonder how many song he's downloaded... or Xbox games?  Is that an "evil" thing?  In my opinion no... but in some opinions it is stealing (technically it is as well).  Stealing is a sin and sins are evil, so by that rational, Bagel would be evil and not a very good Christian.   I myself have dabbled in some downloading and ... gasp... even looked at pr0n.  Am I evil... conveniently, in my opinion... no.  I do a LOT of good things.  I work for charities, I give gobs of money... non for recognition, I just like helping my fellow man.

I, myself, do not believe that that is stealing, and my parents do not mind, rather brag about me, heh, also, say i was stealing, that does not make me a "bad" christian, just because i steal, a bad christian is someone who completely defys there faith and God in whole.

[KazuyaWaruasobi]

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Religion is a cohesive force that have held many lives together through traumatic events which would have otherwise been torn apart without it. Families that have lost love ones console themselves that their beloved have gone to a better place. Individuals that have nothing else to look forward to in the future and is on the verge of suicide can comfort themselves that God is still out there and loves him. These individuals chance to even continue with their future was given to them by their faith.

These people are weak and need to be lied to. As I said before: many people can't handle reality. It disgusts me.

QUOTE

Its almost undeniable that a strong goverment is essential for a stable future. It sets a structure to how business can be conducted, punishment be served and down to something as mundane as when you can hunt. Religion is also such that it can set rules to how we treat each other. Teaching good morale isn't enough, those morales have to be universal and structured and everyone agree so life can be harmonious. Let goverment govern the body and religion the spirit. Both are essential for the future.

Funny. You seem to be ingnoring the true nature of goverments and religion. Goverments and religions control and manipulate for their own purposes. They use the population that sustains them as a puppet, and whenever there is an opprtunity for that government or religion to gain power or vanquish an enemy, the population will be sent to war. Government and religion will do anything to save itself, but they always forget that without a population, there can be no government. They always send off their population to die, not realising that protecting the population is the best way to protect the government or religion. Government and religion will always be corrupt, and will always be destructive.

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But religion drove their civilization forward through conquest of land and people.

For it's own goals, and they were used by that religion. Do you see that as a good thing> If so than I truly pity you. . .think about it more. . .

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Im Christian and i believe in it very strongly and have no doubts about it.

And you're a good little Christian aren't you? Not questioning, but still ignoring Christian morals when you have something to gain.

QUOTE

Religion is a form of control that a government uses to control people.

Religion and government go hand-in-hand. One does not control the other. Even military governments of the past have created their own religions based or combat.

QUOTE

Thats only when you let religion to be the goverment. A big mistake that happened in England around the 13-15 century I think when even the king have to ask the permission of the church to take a piss. The church became so corrupt that you can pre-pay for forgiveness before you actually do the sin. Indulgence it was called. Disgusting little thing.

You are intelligent, but you only let yourself see isolated, and blatantly obvious instances. You don't see religions and it's motives playing part in many more less-obvious parts of history, and how long-term it's affects really are.

QUOTE

The law prohibiting Religion (and prayer) in schools was enstated in 1963 (?). Coincidentally, this is the same year (or time period) that morals declined rapidly and diseases shot up drastically (STDs).

Do you really think that's linked with some miniscule act to promote religious freedom in children? If so, then maybe you should tell a few sexually-mollested choir-boys about how degenerate people without religion are.

QUOTE

I think the changing the Pledge of Allegiance comes to the same ridiculous bullshit as that lady that sued McDonalds for having a hot coffee.

That's an incredibly stupid comment. I'm sure you also know that we want the Pledge changed BACK. The 50s are are a good example of a well-subjugated Christian population, and I bet you think those were good; peaceful times as well.

QUOTE

I state clearly that my thoughts and beliefs are just that MINE... I will not call your house or knock on your door (though some do) to talk you into believing what I believe.

But I wish that were always the case. I DO happen to hate Christianty. I despise it, but I don't preach to Christians or treat them poorly. If I get preached to, then they pay for it, but thet never seem to see preaching as a bad thing. Preaching is fascist.

QUOTE

BTW... any "God" that would send me to hell for having an opinion (though I'm "fairly" moral... and actually a pretty nice guy) is not a god that I would want to "believe in" in the first place.

Exactly one of my points.

QUOTE

Being a "nice guy" has nothing to do with salvation, God offers you a gift, accept it.. Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins, we must accept this to get into heaven. It is satan, not God, that is keeping you from heaven right now.

A gift my ass. You know the price of this theoretical "gift". Satan, if existant, is not evil. He fought for US, and all of the evil that Christians claim are because of Satan is really because of YOU!! You are the most hypocritical bastards that have ever existed!

QUOTE

And about the pledge, nobody is forcing you to say or listen to it, so dont. if you want to say the pledge but dont believe in god, skip that part. if you refuse to have anything to do with the likeness of god, dont spend or own money, "in god we trust" is plastered on every US piece of currency.

Bullshit. We shouldn't need to tiptoe around your religion. It should know it's boundaries and allow other people their freedom. Don't give us shit like: "If you don't want to see a huge billboard about God, then don't look at the billboard."



N00bvin- For most of my life I wa tolerant of religion. I had my beliefs, and they had theirs, but after countless instances of being "interrogated" by teachers or stangers because I didn't believe in God, and seeing it's negative effects everywhere, and seeing it shoved in everybody's faces, can you blame me for becoming bitter? I had a period of pure hatred of Christians. I now have more tolerance, but it makes no difference. I am extremely anti-religion, but my views come from years of intelligent analysis and observation.

Ace25- I agree with pretty much everything you say. Being spriritual can be very good for people, and I think that religion can exist peacefully, it just needs to exist differently in every person. Everybody can find their own personal spirituality if they want to, and they can respoect others'. As long as hordes of people subscribe to one "brand" of religion though, nothing good will happen.

[Snakers]

a bad chrisitian is one who breaks ANY of the 10 commandments.  Thou Shalt Not Steal.  Recieving a product that you did not purchase, that was produce for the purpose of being purchase is stealing.

[vincent_y79]

QUOTE (Snakers @ Feb 7 2003, 09:55 PM)

if you actually go through and read the bible....everythign contradicts its self.  there are many things. think about this, adam and eve are created to populate the world.  chrisitian = premarital sex = sin adam and eve werent married. to spread population, it would lead a whoe line of incest. noah's arc.  everything and everyone but a male and female of each species was wipped out.  to get where we are today it would be an extremely long line of incest.  i would be related to every one of you.

Hehe, I don't thinks it's exactly premarital sex. God gave them each other so it was already under his sanction. But its wrong to believe that every single one of us came from just those 2 people. Hell I wouldn't want to be related to some people I know. And incest is just sick sick sick. I always find the entries in the Genesis the best but Adam and Eve just screwed it up for all of us. I don't think the rest of the bible would be what it is if Eve kept her hand to herself and away from that tree.

[Lizard_King]

N00bvin: I used to have a great deal of hostility towards the Christian faith, in particular the the fairly irritating Evangelical brand practiced by some of my relatives.  But as a student of history, it has forced a certain degree of tolerance in me towards Christians, in particular the much-maligned Catholic Church.

For instance, while it is often the claim of the anti-religionist that religion is the source of much conflict, I would argue that materialist secularism, from the blood drenched French Revolution to Marx to Stalin and the Nazis, and from there to modern variations of socialism, has represented a seriously negative turning point for mankind, at least as much as Islamic fanaticism (which has far less to do with religion than with the manipulation of religion for political ends, ie keep the people pacified with minimum subsistence and direct their hostility outside).

Other than that, I would urge you to attempt to see the question you asked originally as one separate from your criticisms of George Bush, as I think the latter have a lot more to do with political questions than with his faith.  I would say the same for the (admittedly always fun to talk about) legal questions about the proper role of religion according to the law, which ultimately has little to do with the private individual's choice of faith (at least in America, the People's Republic of Europe, and a few other spots).

Ace25, I think it is safe to say that if you seriously view mankind as a virus, it is a sad and tragic thing. Moreover, if you think substituting half-baked hopes for space travel is all that different from the blindest religious faith, I would say all those trees you no doubt mourn for more than humans must be keeping you from seeing the forest.

Anyhow, to get back to the question at hand, religion and science can coexist in many people (in fact, many of our most brilliant scientists are religious to a degree most would find surprising) because they serve different purposes.  Francis Bacon back in the seventeenth century was among the first to seek to resolve the question of the coming brawl between theologians and scientists by pointing out that each has their proper domain, most simply defined as religion=why and science=how, and that when one seeks to interfere with the other nothing good comes of it.

I can understand such a viewpoint because it seems to me that in the absence of a structured faith with absolute morals, such as Catholicism offers, I find that many of the people that claim they are doing just fine without religion are simply substituting a religion of their own kind, be it a blind faith in evolution or socialism or whatever floats their boat.  Personally, I see nothing wrong with someone sticking with a religion that gives them a higher standard to conform to, even if they do not succeed every time, rather than simply a rationalization to justify whatever behaviour catches their fancy.  

At any rate, did not mean to ramble on quite as far, but I leave you with LaMettrie, an 18th century biologist:"He who builds in his heart altars to superstition was born to worship idols and not to appreciate virtue."

He meant that as a criticism of organized religion, but given that he was trying to set up (fairly cohesively) a system of beliefs based on early biology, I find it profoundly ironic that he could not see the altars, so to speak, in his own heart.

[Ace25]

I dont understand....

Last thing, unfortunately, I do have more respect for tree's than I do people. Not saying I am one to chain myself to a tree to stop it from death, but when I turn on TV, read the newspaper, go to a news webite and 90% of the stories are about death and destruction, day after day, year after year, then you make a comment about the tree's.. I think.. well, tree's dont kill nearly as many people as people kill people.. plus they provide oxygen instead of being a total waste of it.. so ya, guess I do like trees more than people.

[socrates]

I dont belive in "GOD" i belive in choclate chip cookies.

[KazuyaWaruasobi]

  Anyway, I added to my previous post, so read it if you wish.

[Tripamang]

Religon started innocently as a way to explain our own existence, but some dumbass along the way found he could manipulate people through fear. That fear corrupted religon and resulted in the fucked up mess you have today =)

Any religon that doesn't develop some sort of individual values of whats right and wrong imo isn't worth particiapting in. Why? Because unless they have some personal meaning, you're really not going to totally abide by them.

Anyways IMO god is the force that drives life =) I'm done ranting and i'm pretty stoned on cold medicine and this doesn't seem to be making much sense.