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[Lizard_King]

vince, ace, thanks for the kind words.

gainpresence: I am not entirely sure I understand the nature of what point you are trying to get across with that excerpt.  Do you mean it as a general condemnation of material wealth as something that is inherently sinful? (which I would vehemently disagree with, and I think it is one of the most tragic failings of the Christian faith that it has been unable to divorce itself from such monastic interpretations of what God would want us to do)

It seems to me that it is precisely such teachings, if the excerpt is indeed standalone and we are not missing anything, that make it so easy for opponents of the Christian faith to claim it is a means of controlling people in the material world by promising them paradise in the next life. What am I missing?

[gainpresence]

The point was not that the rich are going to hell, and that poor are going to heaven. But rather that, Athiests (or, non-Christains) tend to get comfortable in their thoughts, while Christians are always being persecuted for our beliefs.

It was also meant to point out how things are going to be after we die.

[vincent_y79]

QUOTE (Infraded @ Feb 7 2003, 11:27 PM)

seriosly..i think religion is just a scapegoat...something to blaim or use for something some dictator wanted thats why it was created...i don't see why it still exists. Most likely as something weak people use to make their life seem to have a reason and/or purpose

Religion is not just for the weak to have a reason or purpose. People can join the military if they don't have a direction in their life and would definitely have their fill with orders but you can't really say everyone in the armed forces are weak. Maybe some joined because they believe what it stands for. People can stay in their religion if they believe what it stands for and go on missionaries. If you haven't seen what those people go through well i don't know, its a tough life. But those people that those people that are too blind to see that some TV Evangelist are scamming them and also can't see that there are other things out makes me want to slap them to wake up.

Its late and I can't say what I want to say in a more educated way.  I always seem to make this excuse.  Goodnight for now to you all.

[Ace25]

[kickassdude]

QUOTE

People can stay in their religion if they believe what it stands for and go on missionaries. If you haven't seen what those people go through well i don't know, its a tough life

whats the deal with missionaries? they dont have anything better to do than go off to some third world country to force their beliefs on people?

[gainpresence]

[Ace25]

Hey, come on, that is only part of their humanitarian work, they do a lot of great things also, bring fresh water to villages, doctors, medicine, etc..

[eug2k]

i went through a couple pages of this and i am too tired (from all the devprivation of sleep that i inflicted on myself) to finish, i will read it all eventually and just want to add my 2 cents before collapsing on my bed(or floor) - i think that people that are weak are brainwashed by religion.  i also think the bible (and other holly scriptures)were manipulated to brainwash them.  i dont hate anyone for their religion(except extremests, but that is for their manipulation of religion).  i think that whatever created us is beyond our comprehension.  possibly extraterestrials. maybe we r just a virus.  there was a whole show on history channel about how the bible is really just about ufo sightings and such and i think this is more plausable than any "orginized religions" today.  not once in the bible was heaven ever refered to as a place that u go for being good.  it was only used to mean the sky - just an example of how it was manipulated to brainwash ppl. sry if i sound like a crackpot right now but im too tired to orginize my thoughts any better

[kickassdude]

QUOTE

Hey, come on, that is only part of their humanitarian work, they do a lot of great things also, bring fresh water to villages, doctors, medicine, etc..

i guess but ive always seen this as a bribe to get people to join their religions

[gainpresence]

QUOTE (eug2k @ Feb 7 2003, 11:28 PM)

i went through a couple pages of this and i am too tired (from all the devprivation of sleep that i inflicted on myself) to finish, i will read it all eventually and just want to add my 2 cents before collapsing on my bed(or floor) - i think that people that are weak are brainwashed by religion.  i also think the bible (and other holly scriptures)were manipulated to brainwash them.  i dont hate anyone for their religion(except extremests, but that is for their manipulation of religion).  i think that whatever created us is beyond our comprehension.  possibly extraterestrials. maybe we r just a virus.  there was a whole show on history channel about how the bible is really just about ufo sightings and such and i think this is more plausable than any "orginized religions" today.  not once in the bible was heaven ever refered to as a place that u go for being good.  it was only used to mean the sky - just an example of how it was manipulated to brainwash ppl. sry if i sound like a crackpot right now but im too tired to orginize my thoughts any better

There are actually 3 "heaven"s (all different words in the Hebrew/Greek that the bible was written in) referred to in the bible.

1. The layer of water that used to cover the earth (way up in the sky).
2. Space/Sky
3. God's little city (or dimension). Unfathomable to us.

And you're right, nowhere in the bible does is say that you go to heaven for "being good".

[Infraded]

[Lizard_King]

QUOTE (gainpresence @ Feb 8 2003, 06:16 AM)

The point was not that the rich are going to hell, and that poor are going to heaven. But rather that, Athiests (or, non-Christains) tend to get comfortable in their thoughts, while Christians are always being persecuted for our beliefs. It was also meant to point out how things are going to be after we die.

I suppose I see your interpretation, although I am not sure where you see persecution of Christians in that story...all I see is non-Christians going to hell.

I think the issue of being comfortable with your thoughts is far more universal, and applies to Christians just as often.  Many people of all creeds are unwilling to even argue their own positions, apparently assuming that intractability is a means to infallibility.

[HSDEMONZ]

I think it's time we all got serious...

The truth is...

[SmilingFlyer]

I'm a recovering Catholic.

By the way, I just read a post where someone JUDGED and threw the first stone. Wow, how Christian-like!

And that's all I'm gonna say about that.  

[jasonmvt]

QUOTE

You are going to hell for this (actually, commited just ONE sin condemns you). Christ can save you, you just have to ask for his forgiveness and accept his eternal salvation.

You have proven my point.  Is this sort of thing not accepted in other religions?  How is it that your way can be the only way to a positive afterlife?  If you were born and raised in another country, that subscribed to another religion, you might perhaps regard Christians as condemned for their beliefs.  Surely you can concede this.

QUOTE

I agree, but by adding this to your post, you are showing your hypocrisy. I accept God's explanation for things, I know that I cannot fully understand this world (nor can anyone else).

Here lies the self perpetuating mechanism found in most organized religions:  You cannot fathom that another method of belief may be just as significant or meaningful as your own.  I have no hatred towards Christians, but Christianity is no more than another explanation for creation.  How is it any more correct than the other major religions of the world?