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[shanafan]

Since I have been graced with my status on the Live, XBConnect, and Other Online Gaming boards, I think I must take one for the team.

I am going to, again, but Live 2.0 on my modded Xbox, but turn off auto sign-in and access the MS dash with modchip on.

I trust brienj's findings, and I will do this to confirm mine as well. Then, we will really know. And also, of course, anybody is free to report as well.

We need to get this information CONFIRMED

[shanafan]

Ok, so I put Live 2.0 back on my unbanned, modded Xbox. I have disabled auto sign-in. I have rebooted and loaded the Live 2.0 MS dash with the modchip on. I clicked on Live, saw my account, and then hit 'B' to go back to the MS dash (Connecting to Live will ban, of course)

Keep you updated  

BTW, I am playing a soundtrack right now at the MS dash to let any possible modchip tests to completely run...IF THEY EXIST

[Booger2003]

Um....I have played Live the last couple of days and still haven't been asked to update to the new dash?  Why is this?  

[phantazma1]

you know how when you unplug the xbox for a long time, and then when you turn it on it asks you for the date/time? well if you have a modchip on, put in the time and hit OK, will this take you to the MS dash or the LIVE 2.0 dash? if it does take you to the LIVE dash, then you'll be automatically banned right? do you think that even on the clock setting screen, MS will automatically connect you to LIVE? i unplug my xbox often (go to Halo tournaments etc.) so i'm a little concerned.

[shanafan]

QUOTE (Booger2003 @ Sep 14 2003, 04:23 PM)

Um....I have played Live the last couple of days and still haven't been asked to update to the new dash?  Why is this?

Because you haven't accessed Xbox Live from the MS dash.

[shanafan]

QUOTE (phantazma1 @ Sep 14 2003, 04:28 PM)

you know how when you unplug the xbox for a long time, and then when you turn it on it asks you for the date/time? well if you have a modchip on, put in the time and hit OK, will this take you to the MS dash or the LIVE 2.0 dash? if it does take you to the LIVE dash, then you'll be automatically banned right? do you think that even on the clock setting screen, MS will automatically connect you to LIVE? i unplug my xbox often (go to Halo tournaments etc.) so i'm a little concerned.

After the update, there is only one dash. Which is Live 2.0 MS dash.

I recommend, as of right now, but not fully certain, disable auto sign-in to be safe.

[TripFoeYa]

I have been using my Xbox w/ modchip on and the Auto Sing-In off to play backups w/o being banned so far. Loading the MS Dash. This has been for 3 days now.

[Telemachus]

QUOTE (phantazma1 @ Sep 14 2003, 09:28 PM)

you know how when you unplug the xbox for a long time, and then when you turn it on it asks you for the date/time? well if you have a modchip on, put in the time and hit OK, will this take you to the MS dash or the LIVE 2.0 dash? if it does take you to the LIVE dash, then you'll be automatically banned right? do you think that even on the clock setting screen, MS will automatically connect you to LIVE? i unplug my xbox often (go to Halo tournaments etc.) so i'm a little concerned.

I think, based on what BrianJ has been telling us, that the new dashboard is safe for mod chip users, as long as you don't have auto log-in enabled, and you don't access live.  Once Shanafan verifies this, we can ask him to uplug his modified box overnight, and then turn it on.  Hopefully it won't do anything wacky.



So for the ossasional clock reset, it should be fine.

I still would not use the dash regularly from the mod-chip, though.  Much safer to remove all live options from backups, and to link evox to a non-live dashboard, as in the tut.

[brienj]

This really does need to be confirmed by more people and I know with your testing, it can finally be confirmed.  Hopefully others will "take one for the team" too.  This really needs to be confirmed by more people so it is more accepted.  

[paulthims]

QUOTE (shanafan @ Sep 14 2003, 02:27 AM)

Thanks for the tests. Helps to bring my light to Auto Sign-In. Let me ask you this though, how many times did you retry a test? Like, would the results be exactly the same? If you were running another web-enabled app on your computer, could the results have changed?

In conducting my test, I disconnected all other machines from the network.  Basically, the WAN connection went to my cable modem, cable modem to 5-port Router, and the router had one computer and two Xboxes connected to it.

I had disabled all firewalls (both hardware and software), and turned off all of the web-based applications that I could find on my Windows 2000 Pro machine.  Mind you, I didn't have a lot of applications installed on this machine anyway for I reinstalled the OS two weeks ago.

On occasion, however, my PC would conduct a basic DHCP request in the middle of me testing one of the Xboxes.  I could always tell when this happened because I could identify the traffic by IP address (if you look at my testing parameters, my PC had a static IP address but the Xboxes used DHCP).  But since my Router was set to manage DHCP, it would occasionally "check in" with my PC to make sure 192.168.1.44 was still alive and kickin.

For the test that did receive interruptions from my PC, I would run the test again.  Though I didn't run every test twice, many I did.  If I felt there was a reason for me to doubt the results (like clicking on Xbox Live and NOT getting any traffic), I'd run the test several times.

If anyone would like for me to run one of the test again, I'll be happy to do so.

[Psycho_Penguin]

QUOTE (shanafan @ Sep 13 2003, 06:04 AM)

Does MS scan your XBox HD now? Nope. I believe its a legality/privacy "thing" that does not allow a HD scan to take place.

There are many misconceptions on the various XBox boards regarding MS being allowed to scan your XBox. At the moment it still looks like they don't scan your XBox, but they are allowed to if they so wish.

In reality I don't think they would need to scan your whole disk. There are much easier and simpler checks they could do. But back to topic.

The legal/privacy issue surrounding MS looking at your h/drive

From my understanding of the XBL License Agreement MS are fully allowed to install software on your XBox, retrieve information from your XBox and monitor your XBLive connection. You gave them permission to do so when you signed up to XBox Live.

The use of modchips was never mentioned in the original License Agreement supplied with the XBox. When Live was introduced it came with it's own License Agreement, which I'm sure you all read before you agreed to it.  

This license agreement is available to check on the xbox website and within the XBox Live Section of the Dash. Not the main part as it isn't part of the original License Agreement.

It rectifies a number of failings in the initial XBox License Agreement.

The parts to take note of are Section 5 and Section 7.

I'm not going to quote them both here, as anyone reading this can get access to it either via the web or their Xbox.

Section 5 gives both MS and Third Party Game Operators the right to monitor you use of XBL and retain content of your user session.

Within Section 7 you agree that
You can only use live if any modifications/upgrades are MS authorised ones. Any other modifications, reverse engineering etc of hardware or software can result in termination of your account or restricted access to XBL.
You also agree that  that MS may limit or restrict your access to XBL. MS may retrieve information from the XBox which accesses your Live account to operate and protect XBL security, but more importantly to enforce the license agreement. And that they can automatically download software to your Xbox related to XBL or any game.

Reading both Section 5 and 7 of the XBL License Agreement in full I'm sure MS can do what they want in terms of scanning your XBox if they so wished. I'd imaging they would do it under clause 7 with regard to protecting their Live service, or that they are enforcing the Agreement.

Do I personally have a problem with this?
Not at all. I was fully aware of this when I signed up for Live as I read the agreement. It came up on all the boards that the XBL agreement had changed and using a Mod-Chip would break your live agreement, thereby running the risk of having your live account suspended. Which would require you to Subscribe to live again

As it turns out, it seems MS are just banning the XBox itself, not suspending your Live Account, so if I get banned, I'll by an XBox purely for Live.

I have no legal training, but this is just my interpretation of the XBL License agreement. If someone wishes to take it to a lawyer to get it checked I'd be very interested to see their view of it, but I feel that by agreeing to the License you gave MS the authority to access the contents of your XBox if it connects to XBL.

[shanafan]

[Telemachus]

QUOTE (Psycho_Penguin @ Sep 15 2003, 12:53 AM)

QUOTE (shanafan @ Sep 13 2003, 06:04 AM) Does MS scan your XBox HD now? Nope. I believe its a legality/privacy "thing" that does not allow a HD scan to take place. There are many misconceptions on the various XBox boards regarding MS being allowed to scan your XBox. At the moment it still looks like they don't scan your XBox, but they are allowed to if they so wish. In reality I don't think they would need to scan your whole disk. There are much easier and simpler checks they could do. But back to topic. The legal/privacy issue surrounding MS looking at your h/drive From my understanding of the XBL License Agreement MS are fully allowed to install software on your XBox, retrieve information from your XBox and monitor your XBLive connection. You gave them permission to do so when you signed up to XBox Live. The use of modchips was never mentioned in the original License Agreement supplied with the XBox. When Live was introduced it came with it's own License Agreement, which I'm sure you all read before you agreed to it.   This license agreement is available to check on the xbox website and within the XBox Live Section of the Dash. Not the main part as it isn't part of the original License Agreement. It rectifies a number of failings in the initial XBox License Agreement. The parts to take note of are Section 5 and Section 7. I'm not going to quote them both here, as anyone reading this can get access to it either via the web or their Xbox. Section 5 gives both MS and Third Party Game Operators the right to monitor you use of XBL and retain content of your user session. Within Section 7 you agree that You can only use live if any modifications/upgrades are MS authorised ones. Any other modifications, reverse engineering etc of hardware or software can result in termination of your account or restricted access to XBL. You also agree that  that MS may limit or restrict your access to XBL. MS may retrieve information from the XBox which accesses your Live account to operate and protect XBL security, but more importantly to enforce the license agreement. And that they can automatically download software to your Xbox related to XBL or any game. Reading both Section 5 and 7 of the XBL License Agreement in full I'm sure MS can do what they want in terms of scanning your XBox if they so wished. I'd imaging they would do it under clause 7 with regard to protecting their Live service, or that they are enforcing the Agreement. Do I personally have a problem with this? Not at all. I was fully aware of this when I signed up for Live as I read the agreement. It came up on all the boards that the XBL agreement had changed and using a Mod-Chip would break your live agreement, thereby running the risk of having your live account suspended. Which would require you to Subscribe to live again As it turns out, it seems MS are just banning the XBox itself, not suspending your Live Account, so if I get banned, I'll by an XBox purely for Live. I have no legal training, but this is just my interpretation of the XBL License agreement. If someone wishes to take it to a lawyer to get it checked I'd be very interested to see their view of it, but I feel that by agreeing to the License you gave MS the authority to access the contents of your XBox if it connects to XBL.

I think the legality issue arrises from the fact that M$ is doing this to people who have NOT agreed to the XBL agreement.  By just clicking on the XBL tab, it will log on and update your HD.

By your premise, it should only do so for people who HAVE and XBL account, an active gamer tag, since they have agreed to these conditions.

As it is now, people can log in and get their EEPROM banned without even having an XBL account.  They should at least have a chance to read that agreement before the download occurs, and have a way to cancel it before it downloads if they don't agree (other than resetting the box).

[Telemachus]

QUOTE (paulthims @ Sep 15 2003, 01:23 AM)

QUOTE (Psycho_Penguin @ Sep 15 2003, 12:00 AM) So my Conclusion for MY Xbox with Live 2.0: 1) It doesn't connect to Live automatically when using Evo-X and a mod-chip. (No Surprises) 2) Games don't automatically connect in the background of their own accord yet. Although some will connect if you select your GamerTag while using them. (I.E GR Thunder Isle) This looks to be on an individual game by game basis. 3) The MS Dash will not log you into Live in the background when it's left at the main Dash or when the Xbox is switched on with Auto Login switched off. 4) Checking the Network Settings in the MS Dash will transmit something to an Xbox Live Server. I concur with your findings.   According to the tests posted yesterday, neither the new dashboard [Test I] nor the Xbox Live menu [Test G] will initiate network traffic if auto sign-in is disabled.  It is not until you select your Xbox Live account that network traffic begins again [again, Test G]. Remember, network traffic first occurs during the blubber screen with the MS logo [Tests A & B] -- it occured with the old dash and does so again with the new dash (the type and ammount of traffic, however, does differ between XBL 1.0 and XBL 2.0 dashboards [Test A]). And lastly, if you are running XBL v2.0 and click on Network Settings, network traffic will occur and data packets will be sent to an outside IP address [Tests D, E, and F].  You don't need and XBL account for this traffic to occur.  I have no idea what the data contains or if it could cause your Xbox to be banned. QUOTE I am going to, again, but Live 2.0 on my modded Xbox, but turn off auto sign-in and access the MS dash with modchip on. shanafan, we all appreciate your efforts and look forward to hearing your results.  I, for one, hope that you do not get banned for I will feel somewhat guilty for providing incorrect information.  Again, I'm not a network administrator, but I'm doing my best to provide accurate tests results.  I welcome others to download Packetyzer (or a similar packet sniffer) from SourceForge.net to conduct further tests.

Thank you for all the testing, gentlemen.  Very nice when the scene can work together.

2 questions still remain in my mind:

1) Does anything change with a clock reset?  If you leave the box unplugged overnight, and when it sets the clock, does it still retain the auto log-in "off" status, and have no network traffic?

2) In an backup of an online game (such as Unreal Champ), if you click the XBOXLIVE tab, it jumps you to the XBL dash.  Is internet traffic automatically transmitted at that point, or does it wait until you select the gamer tag?  If the latter, then BrianJ's method of keeping the GT on a mem card would prevent accidental logins in this manner, since you cannot delete the online play option like you can the online update.xbe option.

I will do what I can to test the above.  Please let us know what anyone finds.

Thanks!

[shanafan]

QUOTE

2) In an backup of an online game (such as Unreal Champ), if you click the XBOXLIVE tab, it jumps you to the XBL dash. Is internet traffic automatically transmitted at that point, or does it wait until you select the gamer tag? If the latter, then BrianJ's method of keeping the GT on a mem card would prevent accidental logins in this manner, since you cannot delete the online play option like you can the online update.xbe option.

I don't understand this. Why would you click on XBox Live in Unreal Championship when backups do not work on Live?