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[zX_Storm]

QUOTE(gronned @ Jan 24 2008, 03:55 AM)

As this is about monopolizing I wouldn't want either MS or Sony to do it, but one of them will(with the others involved of course). However, I always want technology to progress as well as possibly, and frankly Blu-Ray is a major bottleneck in that area. Sure you get 20GB more on Blu-Ray, but honestly if I burn a disc I really doubt I need that much for every disc. Will games really require more than 30 GB? Will films ever require more than 30GB? Hardly.

The answer is that HD-DVD is much cheaper, and it's backwards compatible with DVD. VHS was the cheaper alternative and it won and became a success. If Blu-Ray win, the sales won't ever be as high as they could've been with HD-DVD, therefore rendering it a bottleneck in the technological evolution. I wish people could realize that as it's more at stakes than just the format.

I'm sorry, but your facts are all wrong. For starters, several companies (including MS) said games would never use more space than a CD (Bill G. even said we wouldn't need more than 64K ram.. google/youtube it). Now most games use up a full 4GB DVD, and plenty use dual-layer. It'll get there eventually. If WoW or Everquest, etc. were on-par with quality from X360 games, they would prob be around 15GB (oh, bye bye HD-DVD 1-layer disc). As for bottlenecking progress.. what the heck? Blu-ray IS NEW technology. HD-DVD still uses a red laser. How is that for technological progression/evolution?

HD-DVD is no more "backwards compatible" with DVD than Blu-ray. Both discs can have a DVD layer on it. In fact, Blu-ray was the first to announce both layers on a single disc with prototype, almost a month before HD-DVD camp had a working prototype. Also, VHS was not cheaper, and it won for terms that have nothing to do with the current format war. Past format wars were not intended for the uses of today. The current format war has a GREAT deal of impact on computers, movies, games, backup, etc. WHEN Blu-ray [officially] wins it'll be a major progress in technological evolution as capacity increases, so will demand. This will cause game makers to utilize even more space and HEY maybe uncompressed Dolby/DTS HD audio (including a lot more of it). That'll be amazing.

All of our technology is "evolving", faster than you're wanting to believe. The question is, how long will a 25GB Blu-ray disc last before dual-layers are needed/mandatory? I'm not expecting a 5-10 year wait, that's for sure.

[Elemino]

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 24 2008, 12:18 PM)

HD-DVD still uses a red laser. How is that for technological progression/evolution?

Check your facts and get back to us. Thanks.

[slipstream]

QUOTE(tummybanana @ Jan 24 2008, 04:25 PM)

the people's choice is quite right, after watching the sales of hd dvd really take off before christmas, the bda new they were going to get there asses kicked so they opened negotiations with the wallet.

im amazed at the despiration shown by the bda as they had made one offer to warner and it was rejected, then at the last possible minute they increased it to warner who accepted.....

seeing as that amount would pay for at least 3 maybe 4 blockbuster movies id imagine it would be hard for any major picture company to turn down, but to turn there backs on over 1million dedicated hd dvd player owners is disgusting, especially when warners had decided to go hd dvd in the first place, and let alone so close after the xmas period to boot.

bda has bought the market because they realised that people were choosing hd dvd, so now what choice is there?
a half finished player (bd) or a full spec affordable one (hd dvd), ill take full working spec anyday

if hd dvd fully dies then ill stick with my collection so far and standard dvd.....i will not be forced to buy a player i dont want, regardless of the movie.....
if i cant get it on hi def, then ill just watch it on hi def satellite

Please dont act like Sony/BDA is underhanded because it purchased support to try to win the format war. MS/Toshiba is not above this-remember Universal/Paramount? Think they switched just for fun, or was it the $150million? get off your high horse before you hurt yourself.

[HackMy360]

HD DVD using a red laser are you serious...what did you smoke today huh  cuz i want some too..
well this is starting to get no where and I just want to add I have never bought a single DVD since that format took off and the only one I was considering to buy was HD DVD that said I would never buy blu ray movies and like some other guy said if I can't get them on HD DVD then I'll just watch them on sat TV I could care less about owning a disk..

[cerealkillajme]

QUOTE(endymon @ Jan 24 2008, 02:58 PM)

Rant about BD being better due to nothing other than size

Have you even looked at the differences between the 2 formats besides size? Your entire arguement is  based on disc size. It's like they say "it's not about size, but how you use it". And what happens to the size advantage when Toshiba completes the TL51 (triple layer 51GB disc)? Yes of course Blu-Ray can come out with the 100GB disc, but the point is size doesn't really matter.

[bucko]

QUOTE(endymon @ Jan 24 2008, 07:58 PM)

It's soo funny how "fanboys" are trying to justify that HDDVD is better than Blu ray.

How on earth can a 15GB / layer be more advanced than a 25GB ?
Let me get this straight - you justify signing the petition because you don't need the extra space ?

It's a pityful excuse trying to save a dying format just because you invested in it.

Let me quote:  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair (1878 - 1968)

Yes you invested money in HDDVD and I understand that it's difficult for you to understand that Blu ray with the extra space has a better future.

There are already several games on PS3 easily exceeding 35+GB. This is today - not tomorrow. What do you think the future will bring ? Extra storage capacity is GOOD thing - not a bad thing. Saying you don't need it is saying that 640K RAM is enough. But yeah, history tends to repeat itself :-)

On a personal note I think Sony is one of the worst companies with their annoying rootkits and drm schemes. I would've much rather seen an open format win the battle.

If the choice is between two DRM infected formats, one with 15GB / layer and one with 25 GB - the choice is quite easy...

LoL space doesn't mean everything you know, theres a whole 3D shooter on the net somewhere and it's a 64KB download, the PS3 games that have 35+GB data are uncompressed cut-scenes, loads of uncrompress language and music files and filler space, have you had a look at the awesome games on the 360 like Halo 3, GTA4 (coming out soon), Mass Effect, etc etc and Arcade is a good example of how you don't need a lot of space..HD-DVD has the excellent VC-1 codec (which I think Blu-Ray has now but it's not always supported it) and that goes to show you don't need the extra space. So anyone who thinks space means the format war then they need to thing again...

I do honestly think Warner Bros are shooting them selves in the foot switching now with the launch of cheap players, I'm fortunate to have both formats now so I'm not bothered but what if the tables did turn? Ya it would look like a bad decision haha. I just can't see this format going away, Toshiba invested a lot of money into it, I personally think it's gonna be used in home video recording equipment and the like in the near future (camcorders etc)..I so wouldn't spend £300-£500 on a Blu-Ray burner lol.

[steveju]

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 24 2008, 06:18 PM)

I'm sorry, but your facts are all wrong.

...said the pot when he called the kettle black.

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 24 2008, 06:18 PM)

Also, VHS was not cheaper

But it actually was. It was/is cheaper to produce and had larger storage space compared to Betamax.

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 24 2008, 06:18 PM)

The current format war has a GREAT deal of impact on computers, movies, games, backup, etc. WHEN Blu-ray [officially] wins it'll be a major progress in technological evolution as capacity increases, so will demand.

I'm not too sure people are that keen on even DVD+DL to date. Why buy a disc that contains 40Gb+ storage space when you can buy over 400 DVDs that have over 400 Gb of combined storage space for the same amount of money? It will not have a big impact on anything, at least for a while (give it 6 more years, then you might see something... probably not).

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 24 2008, 06:18 PM)

This will cause game makers to utilize even more space and HEY maybe uncompressed Dolby/DTS HD audio (including a lot more of it). That'll be amazing.

Try lossless encoding, no need to fill that space up just because it's there. Doubt you would download the entire eg. youtube site to your computer just because you'd have 1 Gbit internet access and a large enough HDD.

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 24 2008, 06:18 PM)

All of our technology is "evolving", faster than you're wanting to believe. The question is, how long will a 25GB Blu-ray disc last before dual-layers are needed/mandatory? I'm not expecting a 5-10 year wait, that's for sure.

Yeah, it's evolving so fast that 1080p is not enough in 5 years. I'm still waiting for something bigger and better to kick both of these wannabe HD formats out of the way for some true HD picture, that won't be obsolete before the final format even gets finished.

[Reaper527]

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 24 2008, 01:18 PM)

This will cause game makers to utilize even more space and HEY maybe uncompressed Dolby/DTS HD audio (including a lot more of it). That'll be amazing.

why would we want that? i would take a lossless format that can be transferred of the disc quickly any day of the week. bluray drives are currently damn slow compared to dvd, which is why the ps3's extra storage comes at a price. a 360 can read a file thats compressed in a lossless format and decode it quicker then a ps3 can stream a large uncompressed piece of data from a bluray disc.

the optical drive is the bottleneck, so more space isn't necessarily better at this time.

[feflicker]

There is not a single argument that BRD is better after the "size" issue. I believe all the features of HD-DVD, and cost savings, are more important than the disc size. SIGNED.

[Chancer]

QUOTE

And what happens to the size advantage when Toshiba completes the TL51 (triple layer 51GB disc)?

 It's never going to become reality to the consumer.

QUOTE

The cheapest HD-DVD player that outputs 1080p is the A30 @ $199 which is still cheaper than the cheapest blu-ray player.

 it's cheap because it's a "clearing the decks sale"

This debate is identical to all previous ones

[cerealkillajme]

QUOTE(Chancer @ Jan 24 2008, 04:46 PM)

It's never going to become reality to the consumer.
 

Although I agree we may not see it that wasn't my point. My point was that size is in-significant in this war.

QUOTE

it's cheap because it's a "clearing the decks sale"

Actually the A30 was $300 before the price drop. Which was still lower than any of the Blu-Ray players were at that time (IIRC the lowest BD player then was $350), not to mention every BD player at that time was 1.0 (will never do PiP or Internet Enabled features).

[Chancer]

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 24 2008, 10:15 PM)

Although I agree we may not see it that wasn't my point. My point was that size is in-significant in this war.
Actually the A30 was $300 before the price drop. Which was still lower than any of the Blu-Ray players were at that time (IIRC the lowest BD player then was $350), not to mention every BD player at that time was 1.0 (will never do PiP or Internet Enabled features).

The players took a dive because they are clearing them out so they can afford to take a hit on them rather than be saddled with them. It is a good buy. In fact I have just found one at £119 over here. I have emailed the firm to see if they have any. If they have I am having one at that money. It will do for the movies I can grab cheap now regardless of the so called format wars The petition is a shit waste of time still

[Mr. Me]

bluray won, get over it. blueray is superior, more disc capacity and there's already bluray burners, which is all i care about

[chipagain]

QUOTE(s2h @ Jan 24 2008, 07:18 AM)

Let's get over it and concentrate on games.  If its any consolation, MS wants d/l to rule and none of the formats to succeed.

That's a common idea but I doubt it's true for *that* very reason. Games. Think on it for a while. One thing MS wouldn't want to do for their next Xbox is put an optical drive with a Sony's IP in it's machines. That would mean that for every machine they sold Sony would receive a percentage from the company that made the drive.

The alternatives for their next gen console are either to develop their own physical media or to use an existing format licenced from a non-competitor (with the manufacturing process already refined for cost and efficiency). MS is going for the cheaper option of the two.

[Elemino]

QUOTE(bucko @ Jan 24 2008, 02:18 PM)

LoL space doesn't mean everything you know

Case & Point: Windows Vista. Nuff Said. By endymon's standards Vista should be nearly 15 times BETTER than XP.

Endymon: Most people who have invested in these technologies care nothing about size because they're not using the discs to store files. And if you know anything about compression you know that size isn't the tell all factor. (That goes for Dobly Digital and DTS as well).