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[throwingks]

I agree with you. But, immediatley 2 people come to mind. Bill Clinton hid-out in Canada so he wasn't drafted to war. And, Muhammed Ali didn't "fight" in a war because it was against his beliefs. People will always cheat the system, and people will always get away with it. Despite what certain nameless people on this board think, there is nothing you can do about it.

[lordvader129]

QUOTE(throwingks @ May 5 2006, 06:37 AM)

I agree with you. But, immediatley 2 people come to mind. Bill Clinton hid-out in Canada so he wasn't drafted to war. And, Muhammed Ali didn't "fight" in a war because it was against his beliefs. People will always cheat the system, and people will always get away with it. Despite what certain nameless people on this board think, there is nothing you can do about it.

draft dodging is soemthing different, anyone in the military now made a conscious decision to join up, they made their own bed and now they dont want to sleep in it. fuck them

at least with clinton and ali i can hold some sympathy as the draft would have forced them into service against their will

i do however feel bad for national guardsmen being sent to iraq, the national guard was never intended to be deployed off of US soil

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(throwingks @ May 5 2006, 06:37 AM)

I agree with you. But, immediatley 2 people come to mind. Bill Clinton hid-out in Canada so he wasn't drafted to war. And, Muhammed Ali didn't "fight" in a war because it was against his beliefs. People will always cheat the system, and people will always get away with it. Despite what certain nameless people on this board think, there is nothing you can do about it.

That is a shame...

George Bush Jr.  He kind of got miracously transfered from one unit being sent to Vietnam, then he deserted his new unit when they got ordered to Vietnam.

Chaney, and Rumsfield have more medical deferements than fingers when it was there time to go.

Bill Clinton is a moron but at least he isnt a deserter.

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US oil company largest private non Vietnamese company in Vietnam.

 
Hmm.

Muhammed Ali, lets see go fight for the freedom, and constitution for Vietnamese but not for myself. So that some oil companies could land a stake in Vietnam.

No wonder he is the most recognized/respected persons in the world.

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If your President says your going to war, soldier the fuck up and do what you gotta do. You joined the Army/Marines/Airforce/Navy for a reason. You knew the risks. You get reminded of the risks constantly during basic training, and other courses you go on. You assume the risk that you may lay down your life for your country. Even if you disagree with whatever your countries motives are to go to war.

In the US, the military serves the constitution and not the President. No "soldier" can be forced to execute an illegal or immoral order. Abu Graib comes to recent memory.  

As much distain I have for anything British at least the future king is serving in the military to pretend like he isnt some aristocrat.

@makaveli91
You go fall on your sword for the king, so his kids can drive a Bentley.  Its all bullsh*t.

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The Battle Hardened Canadian ARMY.....

[Arvarden]

No fuck you

How could you go into Iraq and kill woman and children knowing that this war is based purely on profit and lies?

The amry's job is not to Police, we got the invasion right but unfortunatly we could not keep the peace.  I wonder what it would be like here if the Police force got disbanded and the army took control of Policing duties.

The more troops that decide not to follow the lunatics is a good thing.  It tells me that we arn't all sheeple people.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(Arvarden @ May 7 2006, 05:39 AM)

The amry's job is not to Police, we got the invasion right but unfortunatly we could not keep the peace.  I wonder what it would be like here if the Police force got disbanded and the army took control of Policing duties.

It is called New Orleans

[makaveli91]

QUOTE(jha'dhur @ May 5 2006, 06:44 PM)

In the US, the military serves the constitution and not the President. No "soldier" can be forced to execute an illegal or immoral order. Abu Graib comes to recent memory.  

@makaveli91
You go fall on your sword for the king, so his kids can drive a Bentley.  Its all bullsh*t.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that your military follows the orders of your Secretary of Defense, who i assume follows orders from your president.  Its the same here in Canada.  We serve the voters and civilians, but take orders from our General, then through the chain of command.   And yes, you are right.  A soldier can't be forced against their will to execute an illegal or immoral order.  Then you are looking at point of views.  In the military you don't get to voice your point of view.  You get told, "Ok, General Hillier has decided that we as a military are going to now do this".   Then you do it.  And for invading Iraq.  No one REALLY knows (other than Bush) as to why you invaded.  So what is so illegal or immoral about it?  Civilians die in war.  Its a fact.  Nothing immoral about it.  

BTW, Troops do have the right to not follow orders. But that leads to court marshalls, and jail time.  And as a soldier, i have the utmost faith in my commanding officers.  I will follow them into battle any day without question.  So if i have to die for something else to thrive, at least i'm dying for something.  Not a meaningless life accomplishing little or nothing at all.

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And the army doesn't necessarily want someone who will blindly follow orders. They want them to be able to think intelligently about said orders and be able to ask by the second day "Why the hell am I still digging?"

I think you have this kinda backwards.  The army DOES in fact want people who will follow orders blindly, but would rather have people who can think about what they are doing.  Not a cement head, that can't think on his feet when a situation changes for the worst, or something happens.  The whole example was to show that you should just take your orders and execute them.  When you sign up for the military you know for a fact that you WILL have to follow orders.  




And as for the Canadian Army being battle hardened?  We've actually only been at war with one country.  Korea.  And we didn't get our asses handed to us on a platter like you's did in Vietnam.  I'd say we were more on the ass kicking side.  We don't glorify our battles.  We don't glorify killing.  We have no need to.  We don't care.  We'd rather settle things in a more civil way if possible.  I bet you couldn't guess half of the countries canada has been occupying in the past 20 years.  I sure as hell had NO idea until i was acutally in the forces.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(makaveli91 @ May 7 2006, 08:54 PM)

Actually, I'm pretty sure that your military follows the orders of your Secretary of Defense, who i assume follows orders from your president. Its the same here in Canada.  

Key word in that phrase "in Canada"

The US military is bound by an oath to the constitution, not the president or any other elected official because they change every 4-8 years. Constitution doesn't, you being Canadian you probably arent familiar with "all enemies foreign or domestic", or a right to bear arms for the day when you may need to shoot the government

QUOTE(makaveli91 @ May 7 2006, 08:54 PM)

And yes, you are right.  A soldier can't be forced against their will to execute an illegal or immoral order.  Then you are looking at point of views.  In the military you don't get to voice your point of view.  You get told, "Ok, General Hillier has decided that we as a military are going to now do this".  

There has been several instances of reserervist questioning suicide orders and not being punsished upon review by 2nd level superiors, and then there is Abu Ghraib, they were oredered to do those things and had to fall on their swords to protect officers. As well as civilian executions caught on tape and prosecuted

QUOTE(makaveli91 @ May 7 2006, 08:54 PM)

 And for invading Iraq.  No one REALLY knows (other than Bush) as to why you invaded.  So what is so illegal or immoral about it?  

OIL!!!!!!

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So what is so illegal or immoral about it?  Civilians die in war.  Its a fact.  Nothing immoral about it.  

Counterproductive and at times criminal.

QUOTE(makaveli91 @ May 7 2006, 08:54 PM)

I will follow them into battle any day without question.  So if i have to die for something else to thrive, at least i'm dying for something.  Not a meaningless life accomplishing little or nothing at all.
I think you have this kinda backwards.

You watch too many movies....

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And as for the Canadian Army being battle hardened?  We've actually only been at war with one country.  Korea.  And we didn't get our asses handed to us on a platter like you's did in Vietnam.  I'd say we were more on the ass kicking side.  We don't glorify our battles.  We don't glorify killing.  We have no need to.  We don't care.  We'd rather settle things in a more civil way if possible.  

Whatever you say m8.  I imagine having a military footprint as such as yours does lend itself to talking more (rather than fighting), and proximity to only superpower doesnt hurt either.

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I bet you couldn't guess half of the countries canada has been occupying in the past 20 years.  I sure as hell had NO idea until i was acutally in the forces.

Actually, you mean Canadian forces under UN command. On UN peacekeeping missions, quite a far stretch from Canadian occupying forces on canadian missions.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(makaveli91 @ May 15 2006, 09:28 AM)

"Hey, I don't agree with this.  Its not right".  That doesn't mean that it is or isn't right.  I said it was a point of view.   There are extreme cases where orders are a little too outrageous to be followed.  I'd do a lot for my commanding officer, but to kill myself?  Thats where your common sense would have to come into play.  As for the whole Abu Ghraib thing.  War does a lot to a persons emotions.  Which in turn makes some people think irrationally and react in stupid ways.  I don't want to get into any of that though, its a different thing altogether.

Irrational doesnt equate to execution of an illegal order nor is " I was just following orders any defense"

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No one REALLY knows why Americans are in Iraq.  You assume its for oil.  Everyone does.  Why else would they have gone.  But can you say, that you are 100% sure and would bet a million dollars on it?  There are always usually civilian and friendly fire casualties in war.  Its a fact.  Its not counterproductive.  Mistakes happen.  Its not good when it does happen.  

You may not know.

Bechtel knows

Halliburton knows

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When your in the military you get this sense of pride. A certain confidence that you don't really get when you are a civilian doing civilian things.  So when i say that you die for something, its not like you just die and are forgotten like you and a million other people will.  If I'm to get killed in Afghanistan, then i'm dying trying to help the people of that country.  For my country.  It has nothing to do with watching movies.

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Pride Goeth before a big fall

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You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time but yo can never fool all of the people all of the time

Pride is for fools, it has undone Kings, Queens and those of greater intellect than both of us.

[killerbootsman]

when did Canada get an army?

[_iffy]

Tuesday

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(makaveli91 @ May 5 2006, 03:25 AM)

I turn on the news, and there is some lady from the US talking about how Canada should hold refuge for soldiers that do not wish to fight in Iraq for whatever reasons.  What the hell is wrong with people nowadays?  Her only point  that there are currently soldiers who do not wish to go overseas as they feel their country (America) is commiting a war crime by occupying Iraq...  What the HELL are these soldiers thinking?  What the F*&K do they think they are getting into?  When you sign up for the military, I'm not too sure how it works in the US, but in Canada you apply.  Do some Intelligence and physical testing.  Then you make a pledge.  We pledge to the Queen that we will do whatever it takes to defend our soil, so on and so forth..   From there, you basically are at the will of your commanding officers/Generals.  You make the choice to follow orders to the best of your abilites.  If my Warrant (or anyone from a higher rank) tells me to dig a trench 1 meter wide, 1.5 meters deep, and to dig its length until he says stop.  I'm digging all day, all night, and maybe the next day.. Until he says stop.   Why?  Because thats what soldiers are supposed to do.  Not to bitch and complain about their orders.  

If your President says your going to war, soldier the fuck up and do what you gotta do.  You joined the Army/Marines/Airforce/Navy for a reason.  You knew the risks.  You get reminded of the risks constantly during basic training, and other courses you go on.  You assume the risk that you may lay down your life for your country.  Even if you disagree with whatever your countries motives are to go to war.

HADITHA

 

[jha'dhur]

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BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. Army has charged three soldiers in connection with the deaths of three Iraqis who were in military custody in southern        Iraq last month, the military said Monday.


The Multinational Corps-Iraq said three members of 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division have been charged in connection with the deaths of three male detainees during an operation near Thar Thar Canal in southern Salahuddin province on May 9.

"A noncommissioned officer and two soldiers each have been charged with violating several articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice including murder, attempted murder, conspiracy, communicating a threat, and obstructing justice," an announcement said.

Source

[jha'dhur]

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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military will charge seven Marines and a Navy corpsman with murder and other crimes in the April 26 killing of an Iraqi civilian in a village west of Baghdad, a defense official said on Wednesday.

The charges include murder, kidnapping, conspiracy, making false official statements and larceny, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the charges have not yet been announced

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(jha'dhur @ May 15 2006, 04:41 PM)

Irrational doesnt equate to execution of an illegal order nor is " I was just following orders any defense"



You may not know.

Bechtel knows

Halliburton knows
Pride is for fools, it has undone Kings, Queens and those of greater intellect than both of us.

You seem like an intelligent fellow. I'm hoping you can explain something to me. How does this racket work? Ok so the U.S. invades Iraq... now break down for me who all benefits and how. It seems to be a rational thought but I can't figure out how it works. Thanks.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Jun 21 2006, 04:23 PM)

You seem like an intelligent fellow. I'm hoping you can explain something to me. How does this racket work? Ok so the U.S. invades Iraq... now break down for me who all benefits and how. It seems to be a rational thought but I can't figure out how it works. Thanks.

The large international oil companies (Brtish/American) get cheap access to Iraqi oil reserves.

Iraq has the 3rd or 4th largest "known" oil reserves (given the vast majority of the country has not been explored).

Pretty much the upper echelon of the W.H is bought and paid for by big oil interests.

$70.00 barrel of oil = $350.00 of gasoline after refinement.

Wars are fought over resources, not ideology.