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[twistedsymphony]

I'm looking for a digital video camera and I don't really know the market so I'm hoping a few of you are familiar and can give me some advice, or at least a starting point to do some research.

Uses:
I want to use it for making some video tutorials or demonstration of mods. I also go to car shows and like to film stuff I see there, also it'd be great for filming some of the rediculous parties my brother and I throw a few times a year.

Probably 90% of what I use it for will be mostly still, indoor recordings, in relativly poor light. So a wider field of view is necessary as is good color in low light situations

Also since most of it's work will be on a tripod I don't need any kind of anti-jitter crap or auto focus (or at least the ability to turn those things off). I'd rather manually set it how I like it and have it stay that way.

Also I don't really care if it's a bulky camera, I'd rather spend money on a big camera with fantastic quality and features than a microscopic pocket camera that only takes mediocre video.

Most of the videos will end up on sights like YouTube or Google video so HD isn't necessary though I'd also like to master some of my own DVDs and with the quality lost to compression on the flash based video sites I think it's very important to start with the best video quality possible.

Some of the features I NEED to have are:
-The ability to use a number of after market lenses so I can swap stuff out if I want to
-Full manual control over all the necessary parts
-Compatibility with standard mounting equipment such as tri-pods, car mounts and steady-cam system
-the ability to accept a video input from an external source (like a video feed from another camera, or game console, etc.)

The Features I'd like it to have that aren't necessities:
-4-6 hours worth of battery life on a charge. -I can swap batteries if need be I'd just rather not
-Record to a hard drive as opposed to tapes  -Tapes are a pain in the ass, and no matter where I'm going I'll have a laptop or some other computer with me to dump all of the video on to, I'd much rather do that then lug around tapes wherever I go. Disc based recorders are completely out of the question.

I'm looking to spend about $1000 to $1200 but I could go as high as $1500 if I find something that is EXACTLY what I'm looking for.

This will be my first video camera and I hope to have it last me for at least the next 5 to 7 years.

So... any advice?

[deadparrot]

This might interest you.

[twistedsymphony]

QUOTE(deadparrot @ Jun 1 2007, 02:29 PM)

This might interest you.

Thanks for the link but about half way through the article it was pretty clear that none of those cameras are even close to what I'm looking for.

all of those cameras are marketed towards people looking for
-small
-light
-hand held
-HD

^none of which are key features I'm looking for in my purchase.

[ScrewinGates]

check out cannon digital rebel
http://www.usa.canon...mp;modelid=9430
also check out the prof camcorders on the same page

[throwingks]

I recommend Sony to everyone that asks me. I have a Digital8 cause of the ability to play 8mm as well as DV. The DV is the same quality as a miniDV disk. I remember an MD5 hash comparison in a review I read and it was the same. I don't recommend DVD-R camcorders. They don't give enough control of the video, and you have to rip from the disk if you want to edit your footage. So, good choice there. I have never used a harddisk based camera, but Sony makes them. If I were to buy a new camera I would get a harddrive based unit.

On to why Sony is good. Sony is much better at shooting indoors (low light settings) than most other camcorders I have seen. My father-in-law has both a Canon and a Sony MiniDV (cause of me). They both look real good in outdoor settings, but the Sony dominates in low-light situations. Canon was almost worthless.

Sony, has many additional features, and the ability to add many lenses and accessories. Sony has a great deal of automatic settings and you can manually control most of them. The only one you cannot is 0lux shooting in the day, because that would enable you to see through thin layers of clothing. So, Sony altered it, to wash out the picture when night-vision is being used in the day. If you are an artist and want some infrared daytime shots there are workarounds. Google for them, I won't divulge the info on these boards.

You can buy a 3rd party battery for pretty cheap that lasts 4-6 hours at any electronics store.

As a bonus, Sony camcorders can remove analog macrovision from your old videos. It is not advertised, but it is easy to do. Analog to digital conversion is amazing. As well as the image stabalizer that corrects your old home movies. However, in searching, I do not know if any harddrive based camcorder has analog inputs. I will continue looking for you. If there are none, you may be better off getting a second-hand Digital8 for next to nothing. Solely, for that purpose.

Get the best Optical zoom you can afford. Most camcorders advertise digital zoom. That is garbage. You cannot fake optical zoom, and you can digitally zoom on your PC as far as you want. Sony is also real good at extremely close shots. I recommend a 0.5x lens anyway. You can really get a lot more visible area in your shot. It is awesome for when, on a mini tripod sitting on the table next to you, recording you do intricate work with your hands.

Edit: Ok, Sony harddrive cams do have analog input. That settles it, you should get a Sony. But, I dont think it will remove macrovision.

P.S. Sony's included software usually sucks pretty bad. You will need to get some of your own, that is worthwhile. There are many freeware solutions.

[twistedsymphony]

well, looking through the website none of the camera seem to over a manual focus or the ability to use (REAL) lenses except for this one:
http://www.sonystyle...ductId=11039901

but it's friggin $3K and only comes in a mini DV version.  

[throwingks]

QUOTE

The Controls

Like most camcorders, a toggle switch on top of the camera body controls the zoom. The Toggle feels very solid and produces smooth zooms. The camcorder's touch screen operates other controls such as manual focus. This can be quite difficult to maneuver while on the go. You have to adjust the manual focus using the focus adjustment controls on-screen, and we recommend setting the focus before starting the shot.

You also access manual white balance through the touch screen. However, other manual features aren't included, such as shutter speed, gain, or iris control. Instead we get exposure control which is a sliding meter adjusted using the touch screen.

So, yeah, kinda crappy. But, better than nothing or pure automatic.

[twistedsymphony]

I guess I have a different definition of "manual focus" then most people...

perhaps I should have specified that I'd prefer it to be a "mechanical" focus... touch screens can blow me, I loath touch screens with the fiery hot passion of a thousand suns. I guess the concept of moving a ring with your hand around the base of the lens is old hat. I'd really like to know how I'm supposed to do change of focus shots or dolly zooms with touch screen controls? I mean hell my brothers 2 year old $700 canon camcorder has that why can't I get that in a modern camcorder at twice the price?

When it comes down to it I want to make professional looking videos with a reasonably priced piece of equipment... not some overly user friendly ultra portable piece of hardware designed for technologically illiterate people to catalog the early life progress of their newly creates sh*t-machine.   (can you tell I'm bitter)

In any case I've narrowed it down to a few models I sort-of-like

JVC GZ-MG555 Everio G

I couldn't find any specs on it's lux level but other then that I think I like that camera the best out of what I've seen (though nothing so far has really grabbed me), it doesn't have the largest HDD capacity but it's more then I need at 30GB, what I like about it most is that it offers a standard accessory mounting point on the top of the camera for things like remote triggers, light sources or a more professional mic, and a number of other accessories...

none of the other cameras offer this until you get into the professional stuff in the $3000 range.

it's not just some whimsical arbitrary requirement, I actually have a number of accessories I'd like to use with whatever camera I get and this is the only camera I found that actually comes close to supporting them. (this is what I meant for standard mounting points for accessories).

Also it seems to have the best CCD chip for a non-hd camcorder

Canon doesn't even offer a HDD camcorder (which is a shame because I've always loved Canon products) ans Panasonic's webpage kept giving me server errors so I don't even know what they offer.  

for the Sony's the only two that I liked were the DCR-SR200 and the DCR-SR300C. both of them are rated at 1.5Lux and offer interchangeable lenses. They're pretty close spec wise but SR300C offers a few mechanical improvements and a 100GB hard drive.

I've used the Sony HDD cams before. We have an HD one at my work and I borrowed to play around with a bit. All of the parents in the shop loved it and thought it was great for filming school plays and such but I wasn't really all that impressed... it's just ... not what I want.


Honestly after looking at what the current market offers I'm highly tempted to just buy a used Canon XL1

Basically I'm looking for a camera with that kind of chassis, it offers all of the controls though intuitive mechanical interfaces, has REAL interchangeable lenses (none of that lens filter BS). The quality that camera offers is overkill for what I need it for I'm sure, Ideally I'd like that chassis with the internals of one of the 30GB handy cams... but alas...

Maybe this is just the wrong time to buy a camera... maybe I need to wait another year or two for the HDD models to saturate the market a bit more.

[hamwbone]

I think the problem is computers are smarter/and or better at the task at hand then 95% percent of the people that use them.  Manufacturers are forgetting about the do-it-yourselfers and going for the easy sale. Well, not totally. They still love us, we just have to pay 4X as much to have the "classic" features. I have been running into this same problem with car stereos trying to find a NICE one with a knob for the volume. Volume should have a knob damnit!

[twistedsymphony]

QUOTE(hamwbone @ Jun 2 2007, 06:43 AM)

I think the problem is computers are smarter/and or better at the task at hand then 95% percent of the people that use them.  Manufacturers are forgetting about the do-it-yourselfers and going for the easy sale. Well, not totally. They still love us, we just have to pay 4X as much to have the "classic" features. I have been running into this same problem with car stereos trying to find a NICE one with a knob for the volume. Volume should have a knob dammit!

you're absolutely right, but I know I'm not the only person out there looking for a camera with professional controls and middle of the road quality at a reasonable price.

Heck look at all the amature filmmakers on sites like youtube, While I'm sure the market is dwarfed by parents who just want to film their children but none the less I have to believe that it's big enough for at least ONE company to make ONE product that fits the bill  

I have the same complaint with cars... I want a small rear wheel drive car that handles well and makes over 200hp... nope sorry no one makes those cars anymore.  

[throwingks]

HDR-SR1 AVC HD
Here is the cheapest Sony ($1499, but ~$1,100 elsewhere) I could find with a manual focus. It is a HiDef so it will look nice on your projector.
I believe it also has a 37mm ring. ( for you)

I know it still doesn't fit your needs, but I am out of ideas. It is kind of disappointing for me because I do a lot of home video for myself and baseball, and I was starting to think about looking into a new camera myself. But, my TRV520 fits my needs, so I am going to hold off.

What kind of accessories or lenses do you have/want that won't work with a ring converter? On my camera I have a double ring 37mm UV filter, then the adapter that came with my 52mm VCL-ES06 (0.6x lens). Is it just that you would rather do it the right way? I am asking because I don't know too much about that aspect of it all. Extreme zooming distorts a bit, but I associated that with the fact with the lens itself not the adapter. I may be wrong though, as I never tried it another way.

I spend a lot of time making sure my videos end up very professional looking on the conversion side (PC software). But, I never looked into upgrading the hardware side. The 2 mentioned items above are all the accessories I have, excluding batteries, tapes and tripods.

The SR1 is the closest I could find to something that I would want for myself, if I upgraded.
Conversion from HD to SD probably ins't too fun though.

[twistedsymphony]

Accessories that require an upper mount:
A condenser mic, a high power IR lamp for night vision, and a steady cam system that uses an upper mount for ground level shots.

None of those attach to the ring on the front they require an "Accessory Shoe"

you know, one of these things:


as for the HDR-SR1, it's also got one of the worst low light rating of any of the Sony camcorders... most likely due to the fact that it has a tinted lens to help improve contrast in daylight shooting.

----------------

I think I might just buy some cheap camera right now to hold me over a year or two in hope that something in the market arrives that meets my needs At very least a $3K level camera with HDD recording.

The bare minimum requirements I have for it is that it NEEDS to easily accept audio and video from an external camera and mic. some of the car stuff I do I have mini cameras that just send data over a video cable and they require an external device to record it. If it can't do that then it's not worth me buying anything.

[Dano2k0]

QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Jun 2 2007, 02:57 PM)

I have the same complaint with cars... I want a small rear wheel drive car that handles well and makes over 200hp... nope sorry no one makes those cars anymore.  

Its called DIY twisted mate, join the club

Not sure 200 is enough though, if you can go for more

Import a Vauxhall Corsa B from the UK and drop a 2.0 redtop in there, either turbo or N/A, you could be running with ease 200-350 BHP without spending too much, on coils these handle like no tomorrow with a decent bit of rubber on the road.

The rear wheel portion is a problem, there isn't any kits for this, but i'm sure without too much of a deal its a do-able thing, ive once looked into doing a 4WD conversation, then decided it would comprimise on power more than i'd like.

Plenty of very small cars here in the UK though, many make excellent cars with bigger engines with abit of know how. Also i love the Fiesta's and Clios over here aswell, some others such as Novas, and RS turbo escorts etc but alot are getting hard to find in decent shape now.

[twistedsymphony]

I'm in the process of buying a 1995 240sx, the American equivalent of a 200sx and the Japanese Silvia. The difference is that is has the 2.4L Nissan light pickup truck motor instead of the 2.0L Turbo... I intend on importing a Blacktop S14 SR20DET (screw the red top).

Importing the motor is tricky enough, I can't do it for any car newer then a 1995 because of emission regulations, to drive the car on the street they hook a computer up to the OBDII to run diagnostics and any European or Japanese motor would fail... They don't do it for 1995s or older though, just a visual inspection which you can easily enough find someone who forgets to do those

Importing a whole different car is another story altogether. Unless the care was ever sold in the US they require you to allow the government to crash test two similar models before you can import, after that you'll have to subject it to $30K worth of in-depth emissions testing before they make their final decision, and even if they allow you to import it you might be required to make some severe modifications to the vehicle to meet with safety and emissions regulations usually costing between $5K and $10K.

Believe me, I've looked into it, the cars released in the US Suck balls, and even when we get a cool car (like the 240) they screw it up by swapping on ugly-ass bumper covers and castrating the motor.

I mean for years we pined for the Skyline and when do we get it? When they f- it all up with an anemic motor and ugly body: G35... It's not like they could have given us the R34 or anything...

I would kill to have some of the sweet little sporty hatches available in Europe... that would just be awesome. I have to believe the American market would go for that too when you look at the immense popularity of cars like the Mini Cooper which are grossly overpriced for what they are IMO but people are buying them in droves for their fun driving characteristics and European styling. </car rant>

Ok now back to a camcorder... anyone have any suggestions for a cheap HDD based camcorder that will last me a couple of years... preferably <$500 since I'll be using it as just a stepping stone to something better down the road.