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[dstruktiv]

QUOTE(shtewps @ Feb 23 2010, 06:21 PM)

Okay, so I don't know about anyone else.. but when the JTAG hack was first announced in August my intimidate reaction was 'zomg i can haz xbmc foar 360?'

Anywho, after some poking around it has become apparent that it isnt even in development! What gives? I thought the 360 would be a perfect platform for XBMC. Is there a specific reason it isnt being developed?

Is there any hope for HD playback, or any type of homebrew media center capability for the 360?

In the grand scheme of things there's fuck all users of exploited 360's. The scene is quite small and we haven't attracted many developers.

Someone may be working on it... It would require people who have devkits to realistically port it.

It's more likely we will see another more simplistic media player crop up at some stage but I wouldn't hold your breath.

[DaninAW]

QUOTE(shtewps @ Feb 22 2010, 10:21 PM)

Okay, so I don't know about anyone else.. but when the JTAG hack was first announced in August my intimidate reaction was 'zomg i can haz xbmc foar 360?'

Anywho, after some poking around it has become apparent that it isnt even in development! What gives? I thought the 360 would be a perfect platform for XBMC. Is there a specific reason it isnt being developed?

Is there any hope for HD playback, or any type of homebrew media center capability for the 360?

When it comes down to it, the developer's reasoning for lacking this is as follows;

1) XBMC runs on x86 hardware. 360 is PPC hardware. Direct port is not easily (or even moderately) possible due to instructions in codecs, the amount of modifications required, etc. (But, but, XBMC runs on Apple computers, and other odd devices! Yeah sorry, those are either x86 Intel chips, or ARM with native OpenGL ES)
2) XBMC requires 3D acceleration features, even in just the UI (menus, etc) and those aren't mature enough in native-mode code on the 360 in -public- domain. (Again, OpenGL ES on ARM being the odd one out)
3) The percentage of users who could use this port are low, but this is a SMALL FACTOR in the reasoning from the devs. Everyone acts like it's the main reason - see note 1 and 2.
4) Their reasoning is, the cost of a 360 is near that of the cost of a simple set-top box. I debate this, because I require optical or coaxial surround sound, upsampling to 5- or 7- channel stereo, etc, and most HTPCs don't offer these features.

There were a few other small concerns noted in conversations with the developers, but those are their four main concerns, with number one and two being the two biggest contenders, and number four being their largest excuse.

That being said, as it's been mentioned before (yes, there are two or three other threads about this already, too) there ARE some non-XBMC-team developers working on porting the project to the 360 - quite frankly, I would not hold my breath. I would kill to have XBMC360, it was a fantasy of mine as soon as I GOT a 360..but it's just not going to happen any time soon. The amount of change required to port all of this is astounding, and the 3D modes simply aren't mature enough in the public sector.

[DaninAW]

QUOTE(shtewps @ Feb 23 2010, 11:59 AM)

Thanks for the replies boys. Informative and concise.

Can you elaborate slightly on reason #2? I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around that one.. what exactly needs to mature?
And I'm going to have to agree with you on your passion for XBMC 360. It was (and still is) also a fantasy of mine and I truly hope it becomes available in full functionality one day. I'd do whatever it takes on my part if required.

Well, if you look at all of the homebrew out right now, it lacks 3D functionality. I'm sure it's supported, but it seems, from my view, that we just don't have the knowledge required to access the 3D hardware in native mode right now. The libraries, functions, and routines don't seem to be available for it, kinda like until VERY recently, we had no way to access network communications in a non-encrypted state.

[p4r0l3]

It's not about getting access to the GPU, it's about learning to write code specifically for the 360. Also, xbmc is such a large project it would not be an easy port.

[DaninAW]

QUOTE(p4r0l3 @ Feb 24 2010, 10:30 AM)

It's not about getting access to the GPU, it's about learning to write code specifically for the 360. Also, xbmc is such a large project it would not be an easy port.

We have full access to the GPU indeed, we just don't have the API to access it easily. Consider the GPU a German. Consider the programmer an English speaking individual, from any given location. We need the API - Advanced Programming Interface - to translate what we want to say/do, to things the GPU understands. API typically comes in the form of a library. Now the fun part is, the API for a PC - we'll pretend PCs are Portugese - and for the XBox Original - we'll pretend those are French - are NOT the same. To avoid getting lost in my metaphor I'm going to drop it; the difference is like trying to code DirectX on a Windows PC, then changing it to use OpenGL on a Linux PC using a different video card. It can be done, but it's evil-hard.

Also, I covered that it was a large project, I do believe I used the word "astounding" when it came to the amount of changes that would need to be made.

[dstruktiv]

You do realise that we have full access to all hardware via the XDK right? And that the 3D API is for all intents and purposes very similar to D3D9 on Windows? And that *we* have full developer documentation for all API's provided by the XDK (I.e. The same documentation that is provided to game developer studios)?

The lack of XBMC on the 360 is not due to lack of hardware access/api knowledge. It's due to lack of passionate developers to work on the project. It's also made harder by the fact that most people don't have developer kits and we have no way to debug on retail consoles.

Edit: It isn't that BIG of a project either, sure it is by no means small or easy, but XBMC is already endian independent, and a lot of the Xbox Original specific stuff would not be too difficult to convert to 360 (Although the platforms are completely different MS did a very good job of making it all seem very Windows-y and familiar). It would quite simply take 2 or 3 knowledgeable and passionate developers with DevKits and a few months spare time to complete (To a beta release anyways). (It also wouldn't hurt if they were already familiar with the code base).

[jonny5ive]

QUOTE(DaninAW @ Feb 23 2010, 10:22 AM)

When it comes down to it, the developer's reasoning for lacking this is as follows;

1) XBMC runs on x86 hardware. 360 is PPC hardware. Direct port is not easily (or even moderately) possible due to instructions in codecs, the amount of modifications required, etc. (But, but, XBMC runs on Apple computers, and other odd devices! Yeah sorry, those are either x86 Intel chips, or ARM with native OpenGL ES)
2) XBMC requires 3D acceleration features, even in just the UI (menus, etc) and those aren't mature enough in native-mode code on the 360 in -public- domain. (Again, OpenGL ES on ARM being the odd one out)
3) The percentage of users who could use this port are low, but this is a SMALL FACTOR in the reasoning from the devs. Everyone acts like it's the main reason - see note 1 and 2.
4) Their reasoning is, the cost of a 360 is near that of the cost of a simple set-top box. I debate this, because I require optical or coaxial surround sound, upsampling to 5- or 7- channel stereo, etc, and most HTPCs don't offer these features.

There were a few other small concerns noted in conversations with the developers, but those are their four main concerns, with number one and two being the two biggest contenders, and number four being their largest excuse.

That being said, as it's been mentioned before (yes, there are two or three other threads about this already, too) there ARE some non-XBMC-team developers working on porting the project to the 360 - quite frankly, I would not hold my breath. I would kill to have XBMC360, it was a fantasy of mine as soon as I GOT a 360..but it's just not going to happen any time soon. The amount of change required to port all of this is astounding, and the 3D modes simply aren't mature enough in the public sector.

and just think how long it was to tweak it for the xbox1 years.......

[battlechaser]

drooling over a native .mkv player on the 360......no more converting...

[opiate81]

Also notable is how freakin loud the 360 is!

Had a 360 for a year, just got a PS3 before Xmas, turned it on and was about to get angry at a malfunctioning unit coz it made no noise. Then the XMB loaded up and I sat there with my jaw on the ground as I listened to beautiful silence.
Id compare a mediaplayer on the 360 to trying to watch a TV in a single engine cessna.

PS3Mediaserver will stream MKV to the 360... albeit not as well as it does to the PS3. If thats not good enough hook your PC/Laptop up to your TV & have the PC version of XBMC running.

[DaninAW]

QUOTE(opiate81 @ Feb 26 2010, 07:43 AM)

Also notable is how freakin loud the 360 is!

Not a factor for some - or for me at least, I have it under my TV and the sound from the TV blanks it out - and I even have the fans pulled-up on a higher adjustable ramp, so it's louder.

QUOTE(opiate81 @ Feb 26 2010, 07:43 AM)

PS3Mediaserver will stream MKV to the 360... albeit not as well as it does to the PS3. If thats not good enough hook your PC/Laptop up to your TV & have the PC version of XBMC running.

Speaking of PS3 Media Server, they have an updated beta version that supports more native clients. It may even support the 360, kinda seems like I saw something of that, I'll get back with you if I get around to remembering to check. I'd compare listening to an XBox 360 with a media server similarly to listening to a Desktop that's not grandma's shiny new HP stockbox...as long as you put it someplace that's not an inch away from you, and your TV is bigger than 25", I don't think there's gonna be a huge issue.

The problem with PC/Laptop-to-TV is overscan, underscan in HDMI/DVI, poor digital-to-analog for composite/component outputs on most cards I've seen, lack of digital surround sound audio for a cheap price, extra cables required, no remote control without extra hardware, hugely longer boot and shutdown times (Yes I know about the XBMC Live, but this issue still applies), dealing with OSes on non-Live distro, higher power demand in many cases, need for a keyboard and mouse (on a desktop) or access to the laptop's keyboard and mouse so it's more irritating, etc etc etc etc..

Personally I use PS3 Media Server at present for HD, but the thing chokes on many of my media directories, because I have - for example - 1,200 movies in one folder. It thinks for a while, then just gives up, doesn't send a list of files at all.

[opiate81]

Well I got mine sitting under a 50inch Plasma with a $8k sound setup, Im guessing the difference for me is a 9 month old baby that limits how far I can turn my sound system up
My Falcon with 12v fan mod is also a lot louder than stock.

As for the PC, I have mine about 3-5m away from the plasma with a HDMI cable going from my Vid card to the Plasma & optical sound going from the mobo to the sound system. Dual screen setup so Im typing to you on my 22inch monitor, flick the plasma to HDMI and XBMC is there waiting at all times (PC rarely turned off).
Added bonus is PC games on Plasma with 360 controller look a lot nicer than their console friends.

I saw that new beta to, Im yet to try it myself also, by far the best streaming app though!
Last note, isnt DivX updated so it now handles MKV files, meaning you can stream MKV straight through media centre?

[DaninAW]

QUOTE(opiate81 @ Feb 26 2010, 03:56 PM)

Well I got mine sitting under a 50inch Plasma with a $8k sound setup, Im guessing the difference for me is a 9 month old baby that limits how far I can turn my sound system up
My Falcon with 12v fan mod is also a lot louder than stock.

50" DLP here, with 7.3 (though it's closer to 13.3, with how many speakers I have - they're only on 7.1, three subwoofers, two stereo-differentiated)

QUOTE(opiate81 @ Feb 26 2010, 03:56 PM)

As for the PC, I have mine about 3-5m away from the plasma...

I have my gaming rig at about the same distance, and it's louder than the 360. I hate dual-monitor, and have no desk in here, so I just use the TV as primary output. Doesn't mean I like it though, heh.

QUOTE(opiate81 @ Feb 26 2010, 03:56 PM)

I saw that new beta to, Im yet to try it myself also, by far the best streaming app though!
Last note, isnt DivX updated so it now handles MKV files, meaning you can stream MKV straight through media centre?

Beta is worth it, fixes and streamlines. I hate the "codec" DivX supplies with all its extra bulk and bloat, I use ffdshow + Haali splitter (and -nothing- else) to play every single video file I've ever seen..so I can't answer that one.

[Ranger72]

Homebrew for the 360 is what? 4, 5 months old now?

It took way longer than 5 months of homebrew on the Xbox 1 before XBMC showed up.


Give it time guys.


It would also help if someday a new exploit can be found. As time goes by it will grow harder and harder to find hardware that can be jtaged. And as older non Jaspers slowly die off at some point we will mostly be left with the fewer and fewer Jaspers that can be found and jtaged.

THAT alone will hinder some development of homebrew as time goes by.

[DaninAW]

QUOTE(Ranger72 @ Feb 27 2010, 09:32 PM)

And as older non Jaspers slowly die off at some point.....

Actually, they can be fixed. I just spent the weekend going over seven 360s I owned that have various forms of red-ring, and fixed all but two by reballing various components - the easiest ones were the RAM reballs. After that, I fixed two no-video consoles, where you can hear everything but can't see anything.. Hardware to do it all cost a few hundred dollars, but the pile I'm selling is definitely worth the investment - and now I have a JTAG 360 for every room with a TV, lol..

[shtewps]

QUOTE(Ranger72 @ Feb 28 2010, 05:32 AM)

And as older non Jaspers slowly die off at some point we will mostly be left with the fewer and fewer Jaspers that can be found and jtaged.

THAT alone will hinder some development of homebrew as time goes by.

QUOTE(DaninAW @ Feb 28 2010, 11:09 PM)

Actually, they can be fixed. I just spent the weekend going over seven 360s I owned that have various forms of red-ring, and fixed all but two by reballing various components - the easiest ones were the RAM reballs. After that, I fixed two no-video consoles, where you can hear everything but can't see anything.. Hardware to do it all cost a few hundred dollars, but the pile I'm selling is definitely worth the investment - and now I have a JTAG 360 for every room with a TV, lol..

Exactly. I was just about to point out that even though more older revisions are dying out. Re-balling is becoming more and more popular.