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[iam]

Lol...

The porn industry has chosen blu-ray... HD-DVD is history, stop dreaming guys, they lost!
http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064

[mc_365]

I don't own either format.

I believe HD-DVD to be the better product offering between the two, up till date.

Besides the disc space and the uncompressed audio, why are the BRD supporters in favor of BRD.

What I mean given the current feature set, price and real world use HD-DVD is better, or have I missed something?

For 90% or more of potential buyers, the extras (any thing besides movie playback) are just words on the box, things they will never use.

Ask the average Joe about 720P, 1080i, 1080P, 60Hz, 24fps, 16:9, 3:2 pull down, DTS, TrueHD, DD, THX, PCM, HDMI 1.3, ect. ect. ect.....

Toshiba if they are serious about winning, needs to accept the fact that they're in the coffin, and they have 1 second before the nail goes in.

They need to jump up with speed and vigor, and go all out.

Fuck buying exclusivity, drop the royalty fees on disc until 2010 and subsidise any studio that wants to press HD on a big title.  Basically making it virtually no more expensive to press an HD-DVD than it is to press a DVD.  In essence replace the DVD with a Hybrid disc for the same price at retail.

Simple adv campaign ran aggressively "The same picture quality as BRD but Less expensive + other features not offered by every BRD Player"

Drop the royalties on hardware until 2009 and open up the door for other manufacturers to make inexpensive players.

Make a $75 xbox add on.

The $150 budget model is priced fairly and should be promoted heavily.

I'll continue to wait cuase I don't really buy movies, I watch them on cable and satelite in HD and once I seen it I really don't need to see it again.  I guess some people like to have them around to pop in for the guests.   But I don't even on a DVD player anymore cuase it was getting old and dusty.
I don't believe the Sony Product merrits the price and I am leary of buying into a sony controled format.
But if I can get an x2 Toshiba for $175, I might jump on it just for the available movies and DVD playback, it would be a better alternative to buying a cheap DVD or an expensive BRD player.

[jesterrace777]

Back to the whole varied spec thing (V1.1 on Blu-Ray), I have to agree that it isn't absolutely necessary to have it connected to the internet but this part really bothers me "It will also be required to authorize managed copies of Blu-ray movies that can be transferred over a home network. "  Almost sounds as if they have got a variation of the rootkits technology there so if you happen to send backed up material over your home network it either gives you issues or let's Sony know about it.  Definitely not something I want to bother with in a next gen format.  Meh, either way if HD-DVD tanks, I would love to see this format come in and wipe everything out:

http://www.nmeinc.com/

[crystalx3d]

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 05:27 PM)

Also HD-DVD is region free, Blu-Ray is not, which is also another huge reason I went with HD-DVD. I can import titles that I can't get here. For instance Crank is Blu-Ray exclusive here, there is a German release I can get, same for the Resident Evils and several other movies. I have found close to 50 titles already that I want to import whenever I can afford it. Also some of these titles aren't released here at all (Brotherhood of the Wolf, Das Perfume, etc).

This is one of the reasons why HD-DVD is doomed.  Not because consumers dislike region-free, consumers love freedom.  Movie studios on the other hand love control and many aren't willing to give up that region control.  Why would consumers buy movies in the U.S. when they can get the same region-free movie over seas for cheaper?  This means less money for studios.

Also, my personal theory is that HD-DVD is suffering because no one likes saying "HD-DVD".  Heck, my dad can't even pronounce "DVD" correctly much less the "HD" part.  It just doesn't roll off the tongue like "BluRay".  There you have it folks: five syllables vs two syllables.  Two syllables wins.  Seriously, if you had absolutely no prior knowledge of the formats and their features besides just their names alone, which one sounds more appealing?  HD-DVD or BluRay?  Now consider that there's a disgustingly large number of American consumers who's buying habbits are as shallow as product name and logo design, and voila!

[ConteZero76]

Boys, you're talking like some anonymous Betamax lover.

BD won because it was superior, phisically superior (as 25 > 15, always) and was upgradeable (you know, profiles aren't actually that bad).
It's better as a backup media, has the industry (WB, Sony, Disney and so on) and was really supprted (not just "I'd add an add on player").
Codec wise it offer the same flavors HD-DVD offer, only with a better bitrates.

Now go and cry out loud, but facts are facts.

[bob_barker]

QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Jan 16 2008, 01:13 PM)

Boys, you're talking like some anonymous Betamax lover.

BD won because it was superior, phisically superior (as 25 > 15, always) and was upgradeable (you know, profiles aren't actually that bad).
It's better as a backup media, has the industry (WB, Sony, Disney and so on) and was really supprted (not just "I'd add an add on player").
Codec wise it offer the same flavors HD-DVD offer, only with a better bitrates.

Now go and cry out loud, but facts are facts.

Upgradeable, if your player is upgradeable... I fail to see the advantage there.

BluRay is updating to get features that have ALREADY BEEN RATIFIED AND ARE IN THE FINAL HDDVD SPEC.  That's right, all HDDVD titles have HDi and players can access that content.  You dont have to worry about buying a player only to find out it wont play the latest content.

"Facts" aren't facts.

The day I buy a Blu Ray disc is the day I can pirate it.

[zX_Storm]

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)

Most all current StandAlone players (this doesn't include the PS3) on the market are 1.0 profile. The 1.0 players will never be able to be upgraded to 1.1 (not sure but it might be due to requiring 2 video decoders). So anyone that owns a 1.0 Blu-Ray player will never use the 1.1 or 2.0 features on that players. Same with 1.1 players, they will never be able to be upgraded to 2.0 spec. And as I said above, there are not even ANY 2.0 spec players on the market now. The ONLY player on the market right now that can be upgraded to 2.0 is the PS3. So if you want a Blu-Ray player that will do everything that Blu-Ray can ever do (at least according to 2.0 being the last spec) you can either buy a PS3 for $400 or wait 3-6 months for a 2.0 player to come out with an unknown price ATM.

Have a link somewhere that they can't be upgraded? That's pretty ridiculous. I'm sure they can upgrade and disable features that the player itself is not capable of (I guess that means PIP won't work in computers too?)

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)

EVERY HD-DVD player did and does all the above features (PiP and Web Enabled Interactivity) from day one. I only paid $100 for my player and it does all of those featues.

I keep hearing people say they bought their HD-DVD players for $100 (on sale..), but isn't that the one that does not support 1080p? I see absolutely no need to buy any HD/BD players/movies if you don't have 1080p (or buying a player that supports 1080p for a future TV). My X360 upscales SD-DVD so well on my 1080p, that the difference between 1080i HD/BD and the upscaled SD-DVD is very minimal.

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)

As above, the only Blu-Ray player on the current market that will do all those features is the PS3 for $400. Currently the cheapest 1.1 player out (and not quite out yet) will be the Funai NB500 series for about $300. The first 2.0 player to hit market will doubtfully be under $500 for some time as well.

If the PS3 costs $400 and can do 2.0 profile.. why don't companies model their players after the PS3? Sony obviously is doing something right. I don't see why companies couldn't do something similar, strip out the cell and put some intel/ibm/amd chip in there to suffice. The GFX card handles most of it anyways.

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)

HD-DVD was far cheaper and with more features to boot. It was far closer to mass market adoption than Blu-Ray ever was. HD-DVD was a finished product out the door, Blu-Ray has only spent the past year and a half catching up. The winning HDM (High-Def Media) is supposed to be the format to replace DVD and should be mass market adopted, I just don't see most people spending that kind of money on a Blu-Ray player, sure they will come down in price, but will people even care about HDM anymore by that time (could be at least a year or two before we see even one Blu-Ray player for $100 or less).

Also HD-DVD is region free, Blu-Ray is not, which is also another huge reason I went with HD-DVD. I can import titles that I can't get here. For instance Crank is Blu-Ray exclusive here, there is a German release I can get, same for the Resident Evils and several other movies. I have found close to 50 titles already that I want to import whenever I can afford it. Also some of these titles aren't released here at all (Brotherhood of the Wolf, Das Perfume, etc).

It would appear so, however HD-DVD was never "closer" to mass market adoption than BD. They have been just about EVEN the entire life of the format war. Also, based on the title of this article that might help support your statement, "Strong Q4 Sales". People from CES have posted interviews from Toshiba with exact figures. To be accurate, out of HD players (both HD-DVD and BD), HD-DVD only sold 49%. What they failed to mention is that BD did sell the other 51%, these figures do NOT include the PS3 sales either. That was Q4 last year, including all of holiday sales. Retail companies are also reporting not quite 50%, but quite a few % of HD-DVD players are being brought back due to customer's fav movies on BR. These figures aren't in Q4 sales as the returns happened in Q1.

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)

Not trying to sway anyone to either format, do your research though and pick the one you feel deserves to win. And just remember that the format you do pick could be the ONLY format movies are released in in a few years from now. So many people are in a hurry to get the war over that nobody even cares what's left when the dust settles.

I will still continue to buy HD-DVDs and will never go Blu-Ray. Soon I'll even pickup a second HD-DVD player to have as a spare/backup for when my original dies. I'd still like to see HD-DVD to make a comeback, but consumer confidence (not mine, lol) is just way to low to be able to comeback IMO.

I like your statements, very well educated. I'm usually interested in tech specs, like you (the profiling, etc.), but the marketing is probably what most of the industry is looking at, which is what I looked at. I almost bought the HD-DVD addon for my X360 5 days before CES. Decided to wait until after CES to see what Toshiba might be announcing. I really only wanted the HD-DVD stuff for the free movies, and Transformers (can't believe Michael Bay couldn't get it on BD). But with all this commotion, I'm sure Transformers will eventually see it's way to BD now. It would be stupid not to.

Anyways, thanks for the read, cereal Will definitely look into the profiling stuff before making my decision.

[cerealkillajme]

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 16 2008, 10:57 AM)

Wow! Didn't know all of that about Blu-ray. But let me ask some things, you seem pretty knowledgeable about both.
Have a link somewhere that they can't be upgraded? That's pretty ridiculous. I'm sure they can upgrade and disable features that the player itself is not capable of (I guess that means PIP won't work in computers too?)
I keep hearing people say they bought their HD-DVD players for $100 (on sale..), but isn't that the one that does not support 1080p? I see absolutely no need to buy any HD/BD players/movies if you don't have 1080p (or buying a player that supports 1080p for a future TV). My X360 upscales SD-DVD so well on my 1080p, that the difference between 1080i HD/BD and the upscaled SD-DVD is very minimal.
If the PS3 costs $400 and can do 2.0 profile.. why don't companies model their players after the PS3? Sony obviously is doing something right. I don't see why companies couldn't do something similar, strip out the cell and put some intel/ibm/amd chip in there to suffice. The GFX card handles most of it anyways.
It would appear so, however HD-DVD was never "closer" to mass market adoption than BD. They have been just about EVEN the entire life of the format war. Also, based on the title of this article that might help support your statement, "Strong Q4 Sales". People from CES have posted interviews from Toshiba with exact figures. To be accurate, out of HD players (both HD-DVD and BD), HD-DVD only sold 49%. What they failed to mention is that BD did sell the other 51%, these figures do NOT include the PS3 sales either. That was Q4 last year, including all of holiday sales. Retail companies are also reporting not quite 50%, but quite a few % of HD-DVD players are being brought back due to customer's fav movies on BR. These figures aren't in Q4 sales as the returns happened in Q1.
I like your statements, very well educated. I'm usually interested in tech specs, like you (the profiling, etc.), but the marketing is probably what most of the industry is looking at, which is what I looked at. I almost bought the HD-DVD addon for my X360 5 days before CES. Decided to wait until after CES to see what Toshiba might be announcing. I really only wanted the HD-DVD stuff for the free movies, and Transformers (can't believe Michael Bay couldn't get it on BD). But with all this commotion, I'm sure Transformers will eventually see it's way to BD now. It would be stupid not to.

Anyways, thanks for the read, cereal Will definitely look into the profiling stuff before making my decision.

Will take me a while to respond to all of these as I'm at work, but I'll start.

Here is an article that explains about the Blu-Ray profiles, and it's from the BBC News, so it's legit, http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/7187179.stm
And here is another one, http://www.betanews....into/1199841379

That is true that the players that hit $100 in November were limited to 1080i output. The cheapest 1080p HD-DVD player is currently the A30 for $199. I'm rather happy Toshiba does offer 1080i players myself. Most still don't have an HDTV even yet, and for those that do I'd say probably 50% don't have a TV that supports 1080p. Personally I have a 720p/1080i projector and a 720p/1080i HDTV, so to me there was no point at all in getting a 1080p player. Eventually I will pick one up for whenever I do upgrade to a 1080p display.

I can't really say why other members of the BDA aren't putting out cheaper and better featured players. But I will speculate that's it probably due to the PS3's cost subsidizing. The PS3 is competing in 2 markets right now, gaming as well as Blu-Ray. We know Sony loses money on every PS3 sold, so IMO if they don't start getting more game sales to makeup for the loses, they won't be able to sustain the PS3 model much longer. I'm not trying to make a point that the PS3 doesn't have games, but that they need to get more games sold to start bringing in profits. If they lost $200 on every unit sold and only have made $50-100 back off of each owner then they can't continue going down this road. IMO if Blu-Ray doesn't win this format war (which it probably will at this point) Sony will be in trouble for all the money they put into the PS3.

With HD-DVD being closer to mass market adoption, what I meant was more that their pricing is closer to what your average consumer will pay, as well as it being a complete and ready format from day one (and not having to go back and add things). I agree both sold nearly the same in the past though (with Blu-Ray selling more last year at about 60:40 or so in disc sales).

True the Blu-Ray standalones did out-sell HD-DVD standalones this holiday. But every one of those players that sold over the season are all profile 1.0 and had their prices dropped a little. Also I won't argue that many have returned HD-DVD players after the holiday, but most were due to the Warner decision, I personally haven't seen one post from anyone that returned one due to content availibility. HD-DVD still does have lots of great exclusives (Matrix, Batman Begins, Bourne Trilogy, Transformers, Shrek 3, Zodiac, etc.).

[zX_Storm]

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 16 2008, 01:18 PM)

Will take me a while to respond to all of these as I'm at work, but I'll start.

Here is an article that explains about the Blu-Ray profiles, and it's from the BBC News, so it's legit, http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/7187179.stm
And here is another one, http://www.betanews....into/1199841379

That is true that the players that hit $100 in November were limited to 1080i output. The cheapest 1080p HD-DVD player is currently the A30 for $199. I'm rather happy Toshiba does offer 1080i players myself. Most still don't have an HDTV even yet, and for those that do I'd say probably 50% don't have a TV that supports 1080p. Personally I have a 720p/1080i projector and a 720p/1080i HDTV, so to me there was no point at all in getting a 1080p player. Eventually I will pick one up for whenever I do upgrade to a 1080p display.

I can't really say why other members of the BDA aren't putting out cheaper and better featured players. But I will speculate that's it probably due to the PS3's cost subsidizing. The PS3 is competing in 2 markets right now, gaming as well as Blu-Ray. We know Sony loses money on every PS3 sold, so IMO if they don't start getting more game sales to makeup for the loses, they won't be able to sustain the PS3 model much longer. I'm not trying to make a point that the PS3 doesn't have games, but that they need to get more games sold to start bringing in profits. If they lost $200 on every unit sold and only have made $50-100 back off of each owner then they can't continue going down this road. IMO if Blu-Ray doesn't win this format war (which it probably will at this point) Sony will be in trouble for all the money they put into the PS3.

With HD-DVD being closer to mass market adoption, what I meant was more that their pricing is closer to what your average consumer will pay, as well as it being a complete and ready format from day one (and not having to go back and add things). I agree both sold nearly the same in the past though (with Blu-Ray selling more last year at about 60:40 or so in disc sales).

True the Blu-Ray standalones did out-sell HD-DVD standalones this holiday. But every one of those players that sold over the season are all profile 1.0 and had their prices dropped a little. Also I won't argue that many have returned HD-DVD players after the holiday, but most were due to the Warner decision, I personally haven't seen one post from anyone that returned one due to content availibility. HD-DVD still does have lots of great exclusives (Matrix, Batman Begins, Bourne Trilogy, Transformers, Shrek 3, Zodiac, etc.).

Thanks for the reply I'm at work too, hah.

After I wrote the mass market adoption inquiry, I figured you meant pricing, but didn't bother removing it, as it was still important information. HD-DVD is definitely cheaper, that's for sure. I believe the general American population would definitely want something that's cheaper. However you have to think of who is getting HDTV's. It's obviously people who can afford to spend some money on it, or have said. But this works also for HD-DVD.

A friend of mine saved money for a couple months to get an amazing 42" 1080p HDTV, but wasn't bothered to get any HD players. A different friend makes a bit more money than him, and bought a 1080i HDTV and bought the X360 HD-DVD addon. Sure, companies and analysts could come up with information on each format, and how the "general population" can afford such and such, or doesn't want to spend such and such money on entertainment (which most analysts are saying this).

The marketing side of this format war is just plain stupid IMO. I can almost guarantee people who love MS/X360 (or simply Sony haters) probably have bought an HD-DVD player due to MS marketing of it. The same goes with Sony fans. Analysts can't compare marketing of this new generation of entertainment to VHS/Betamax and so forth. Culture and lifestyles have changed too much to just say this is a repeat. The history of people supporting these companies have been "fighting" for years. Since MS released it's Xbox in 2001, we've had people fight Sony vs. Microsoft. The format war just took a more "serious" fight as it extended throughout all of entertainment and not just gaming (hah, it's not hurting Nintendo at all, being a full-fledged gaming company).

The holiday 1.0 profiling sales: sucks. hah! Maybe I'm just naive or want to look at it positively, but I still believe that companies would allow firmware or some other upgrade to do newer profiles (sort of like new X360 games require updates).

< 50% adoption of HDTV users buying 1080p: totally agree. Probably 3/4 of my co-workers have HDTV's, and only 1/5 of those have 1080p IIRC. I just figured if people were going to spend the money, than why not buy a 1080p player as the prices come down, they will eventually pick up one of those TVs, IMO.

Exclusives: I hate exclusivity, but that's the only way our economy can function properly. What drew me to wanting that HD-DVD addon was the Bourne Trilogy and Transformers. So yes, in fact, I don't know of anybody who brought back any HD-DVD players from Christmas either. However, using that knowledge, I don't know of any of my friends or co-workers who got an HD-DVD OR BD player. Most of them bought pre-Christmas, or therefore since CES.

1080i Player: Wait, weren't people saying that the 1080p BD player did NOT support 1080i? It only has 720p and 1080p? (ouch!) Or something like, 480i/p, and 1080i/p and NO 720p? I remember reading some reviews about them, but I can't recall.

[zX_Storm]

In addition, I'd just like to say that the BBC article that you linked to has some great information regarding those profiles.

I definitely have to point out the quote:
"The guys that bought the first Blu-ray players are the guys who bought the first laser discs. They know the risks."

It's very true. Look at people who bought the first X360. They didn't get the HDMI connectors (right?). Other products are just as similar. As production goes on, enhancements can be added, and early adopters get the boot. This doesn't mean early adopters are stuck in the water (almost like the iPhone before Apple gave us money back -- I got $200 back though, woo!). But if they release a new iPhone with GPS, G3, etc. etc. that doesn't help us, the early adopters. It's all the same, really. I'm glad that the Blu-ray camp is adding it now just as HD is starting to become mainstream and the format war appears to be ending. MUCH better now than if they waited another year.

[vacsed]

QUOTE(Flagg3 @ Jan 15 2008, 11:24 PM)

No it doesn't.  As I've said numerous times, Blu-Ray won for one reason and one reason only:  Installed user base.  Regardless of which player sold more standalone players, or which one was technically better, the simple fact is that over 9 million people currently have Blu-Ray disc players in their homes, compared to just under 1 million HD-DVD players.

Well, first of all, Bluray still has NOT won, at least not yet. Secondly, if Bluray wins some day later, the reason will not have been the number of BD players on the market in 2007 but because of better studio support.

Basically you even can't say that there are 9 million BD players out there because out of those 9 millions, 7.2 are PS3s of which only a really small minority is used to watch BD movies. In fact the attach rate of those 9 millions players is currently so ridiculously low, that I don't think any studios are using that 9 million number as an argument to prefer Bluray over HD-DVD.

Warner initially didn't want to support Bluray because for obvious reasons. First of all there is a problem with the name "bluray". The industry knows that it is a pain in the ass to get the general public aware of a completely new technology using a completely new name. This might sound neglectable to some people but brand recognition is a key factor in making a new technology successful. HD-DVD was the clear winner, because people know what DVD is and most even now know what HD means. The name "HD-DVD" is perfect.

Then there is a problem with the manufacturing costs of BD players and discs. Warner and any other studio knows this, if they can choose to sell 1 million BDs or 1 million HD-DVDs, they certainly will choose HD-DVD because of the higher profit margins.

Not forgetting that the BD specification is yet not finished which will further confuse the average consumer. Average Joe does not know what profile 1.0, 1.1 or 2.0 means and so he will not know what to buy or gets fooled into buying an older, cheaper players only to find out later on that he got screwed and can't used the latest BD features. This is a big problem for the mass-market adoption of HD players and studios are not happy with it.

So how on earth is Bluray now in the better position? That's quite easy to understand if you know that DVD sales are since 1-2 years constantly decreasing. Studios are looking for the next DVD because they want to make big money and fast. Fast is the key word because Studios want ONE format as soon as possible to create a new billion dollar market and they have to choose sides. Warner choose Bluray even though they have been in serious negotiations to go HD-DVD exclusive because Fox was bribed by Sony to go blue. Warner had to follow suit because they need a new standard fast to make up for the decreasing DVD sales and this can only be done by having most major studios supporting one format.

In the end, this had nothing to do with the number of BD players on the market but all about studio trying to kill one format ASAP and the fate choose HD-DVD because of a sneaky intervention by Sony/BDA... and this at the very, very last moment on the 4th of January 2008. The day before the world was still destined to go red.

But the industry has now a new problem because they have to deal with much higher costs and less profit and a new (HD) market which will not bring the required cash flow till 3-4 years from now at the earliest. The HD market will not be ready this year and not the next one.

[Flagg3]

QUOTE(NoMention @ Jan 15 2008, 11:41 PM)

That is about the funniest thing I've read.  They didn't take any money... sure they didn't.  
http://formatwarcent...n-from-the-bda/

And there are plenty of other articles claiming the same.  Sure, it could all be one big "rumor" but I highly doubt it.  

I love conspiracy theories.

You do realize that these are PUBLICLY owned companies, right?  And that they cannot just 'take payoffs' without reporting them?  Do you honestly suppose that there are guys twirling their mustaches in some backroom with bundles of cash on the tables?  The executives of these companies would be subject to arrest if they did not clearly report any direct income if they received it from Sony.  That's why we were able to find out how much Toshiba paid Paramount and Dreamworks.  As publicly owned companies they were required to disclose it.

Now, I am sure that concessions were made somewhere, it goes without saying that both sides would have been willing to negotiate deals.  I would expect that Sony offered discounts and other incentives, but nothing that would amount to an absurd $500 million payoff, and certainly nothing that Toshiba wouldn't have offered as well.

[Flagg3]

QUOTE(NoMention @ Jan 15 2008, 11:41 PM)

HD-DVD is not dead.  All the people that say the PS3 installed base is the cause of HD-DVD demise, I have only 1 thing to say to you.  WAL-MART.  Yes, that is correct.  9 million PS3 is nothing.  How many cheapo APEX DVD players from WAL-MART do you think are in people's homes.  The average consumer is not an audio/videophile.  If Toshiba comes out with a $100 HD-DVD player, the average Joe will walk into WAL-MART and see that it plays HD movies on his HDTV.  He will then see the Blu-Ray player for way more.  Which will common-man Joe pick?  Clearly not the expensive one...

...It will all come done to price.  How much is Joe Schmoe willing to pay?

Wow, you've hit the nail on the head again!

$100 retail price, genius!

Oh wait, the manufacturing cost of an HD-DVD player is over $200?  But... How did they afford to sell one for $99 over Christmas?  Simply put, it was sold as a 'loss leader' sold in limited quantities to generate buzz.
 
Toshiba and Sony would both love to sell High definition players at under $100.   This may surprise you, but they are well aware that that is the price barrier that real sales volume starts at.  If either one could conceivably sell the player below $100 without going bankrupt, they certainly would.

[Flagg3]

QUOTE(vacsed @ Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM)

Well, first of all, Bluray still has NOT won, at least not yet. Secondly, if Bluray wins some day later, the reason will not have been the number of BD players on the market in 2007 but because of better studio support.

Basically you even can't say that there are 9 million BD players out there because out of those 9 millions, 7.2 are PS3s of which only a really small minority is used to watch BD movies. In fact the attach rate of those 9 millions players is currently so ridiculously low, that I don't think any studios are using that 9 million number as an argument to prefer Bluray over HD-DVD.

The studios chose Blu-ray because of disc sales, at least according to their press statements.  Blu-ray discs consistently outsold HD-DVD discs.  Considering the fact that standalone HD-DVD players outsold standalone Blu-Ray players, where do you suppose all of those disc sales came from?  PS3 owners.  

QUOTE(vacsed @ Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM)

Warner initially didn't want to support Bluray because for obvious reasons. First of all there is a problem with the name "bluray". The industry knows that it is a pain in the ass to get the general public aware of a completely new technology using a completely new name. This might sound neglectable to some people but brand recognition is a key factor in making a new technology successful. HD-DVD was the clear winner, because people know what DVD is and most even now know what HD means. The name "HD-DVD" is perfect.

You got it.  That's why S-VHS and Video CD won out over DVD.  

Oh, wait...

QUOTE(vacsed @ Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM)

Then there is a problem with the manufacturing costs of BD players and discs. Warner and any other studio knows this, if they can choose to sell 1 million BDs or 1 million HD-DVDs, they certainly will choose HD-DVD because of the higher profit margins.

Not forgetting that the BD specification is yet not finished which will further confuse the average consumer. Average Joe does not know what profile 1.0, 1.1 or 2.0 means and so he will not know what to buy or gets fooled into buying an older, cheaper players only to find out later on that he got screwed and can't used the latest BD features. This is a big problem for the mass-market adoption of HD players and studios are not happy with it.

Agreed.  Which is all the more reason why it shows just how important installed userbase is.  

QUOTE(vacsed @ Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM)

So how on earth is Bluray now in the better position? That's quite easy to understand if you know that DVD sales are since 1-2 years constantly decreasing. Studios are looking for the next DVD because they want to make big money and fast. Fast is the key word because Studios want ONE format as soon as possible to create a new billion dollar market and they have to choose sides. Warner choose Bluray even though they have been in serious negotiations to go HD-DVD exclusive because Fox was bribed by Sony to go blue. Warner had to follow suit because they need a new standard fast to make up for the decreasing DVD sales and this can only be done by having most major studios supporting one format.

In the end, this had nothing to do with the number of BD players on the market but all about studio trying to kill one format ASAP and the fate choose HD-DVD because of a sneaky intervention by Sony/BDA... and this at the very, very last moment on the 4th of January 2008. The day before the world was still destined to go red.

Ludicrous conspiracy theories aside, even if Sony HAD paid off Fox and Warner, how would that be any different then Toshiba paying off Dreamworks and Paramount?  You seem to forget that they genuinely did pay off those studios, and were actually in negotiations to try to pay off Fox and Warner.  In the end though, both studios chose Blu-Ray because the PS3 was simply putting Blu-Ray into too many homes for HD-DVD to ever win.  That's the single reason, no matter how many conspiracy theories you choose to believe.  

[ConteZero76]

QUOTE(bob_barker @ Jan 16 2008, 04:40 PM)

Upgradeable, if your player is upgradeable... I fail to see the advantage there.

BluRay is updating to get features that have ALREADY BEEN RATIFIED AND ARE IN THE FINAL HDDVD SPEC.  That's right, all HDDVD titles have HDi and players can access that content.  You dont have to worry about buying a player only to find out it wont play the latest content.

"Facts" aren't facts.

The day I buy a Blu Ray disc is the day I can pirate it.

There is plenty of BD-Rip out there so I don't think that that's the point.
You're crying about upgrades ?
My €35 no-brand Mediatek DVD player can be updated (and is upgraded), I fail to see why a €300+ BD player shouldn't be upgradeable to Profile 1.1/2.0 too...