Topic: Defragmenter? (Read 1106 times)

Nubber · « **on:** February 25, 2004, 12:09:00 PM »

and is it really necessary for your xbox hdd? :huh:

moistness · « **Reply #1 on:** February 25, 2004, 11:41:00 AM »

I dont think anyone is in any hurry to make one, and all the posts asking about it get shoved in a big defrag thread in the garbage!!

Maybe its a conspiricy!!

feflicker · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2004, 11:44:00 AM »

I was thinking this the other day as I low-level formatted one of my drives and reloaded everything back onto it to get it running better

I agree, a conspiracy there is

the joker · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2004, 03:40:00 AM »

defrag and scnadisk was really hard when 120gb was the limit due to insanely big database. Now that there is no limit anymore we can completely ditch the memory database stuff since there is no possible way to use memory

Sooo, we gotta find a good way to store the incredible big database first.

thejt · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2004, 09:46:00 PM »

Database? For?

the joker · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2004, 12:58:00 AM »

simple math here

if we optimize it to use just 1 byte info for every sector.... and lets say you got 250 gb on f:

250.000.000.000 / 2048 = 122.070.312 bytes

it would need 122 meg ram to store the state of all sectors. And for defrag you need a bit more info than that - you need 4 bytes per sector, because you need to know where to put the new sectors and shuffle around.

As we know, the xbox got 64 mb ram, and the system takes it's share. So does avalaunch, so I would guess that 30mb ram is the max we can use for this cause. 122mb/480mb is hard to allocate

However, there's ways to use both E: and z: as virtual memory for this cause, but it's a tad more tricky and way slower.

so, not given up, but put on ice till it's the next thing to work on

oblox · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2004, 02:49:00 AM »

heinrich · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2004, 05:37:00 AM »

thejt · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2004, 06:56:00 AM »

It think that is just doing to much. A typical defrag application is not what the Xbox needs. It simply should be compacted based on folders. Let me expand:

In the PC world defrag basically orders frequently accessed data to the front of the drive like im sure you already know.. But. This is not necessary for the xbox in my opinion. The xbox accesses data in sequential order.. I mean, you are only loading data from one confined location when loading anything.. games, apps and whatnot. Not pulling small amts of data from many locations around the drive like PC's. Since PC applications have shared libraries and whatnot that may be scattered around the drive, it makes sense that what is most important is "frequency". In Xbox terms this has little importance at all, you simply need to compact the folders. A standard PC based defrag would only make the xbox run like dog shit! Not to mention it would be virtually impossible to defrag a 250 gig drive efficiently! Now a simple compact would be far more feasable and alot more effective on increasing performance on the xbox.

This post has been edited by thejt: Feb 27 2004, 02:59 PM

Rizight1 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2004, 08:46:00 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you're incorrect about about scattered data part. From what I know, data is written sequentially so yes all the data is located in one spot on a blank drive. But all games and files differ in size. So, let's say on my F partition I load 5 games. I then decide to remove the 2nd and 4th game that was installed. I now load a 6th game that was bigger than the 2nd. Does it not fill the location of the 2nd game's free space and continue to the 4th's? Maybe I'm wrong and the 6th gets it's own space after the 5th. If my scenario is true, though, then you now have fragmentation. Its effect on performance is another issue and I have no clue as to how the xbox would handle it. In my eyes, if you never delete anything from a partition, then you do not need a defragmenter because all the data is aligned and at the begining of the partition. But not everyone has a huge drive so they run out of space and need to delete. Maybe some should use the F as permanent storage and G as a temp spot. Load a few games on G and the ones you really want, move to F. You can then format your G after a while to start fresh. If I'm wrong I take it all back. But I would at least like a response to know if I'm thinking correctly or not. Thanks.

switcher · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2004, 02:05:00 PM »

You are 100% correct.

thejt · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2004, 02:34:00 PM »

Were on different pages here.. Yes deleting files would leave empty space.. then when the space is "re-written" in segments you have fragmentation. Im not disagreeing with the fact that defragmentation will happen. Im simply stating how the files should be re-arranged for "de"fragmentation.

PC based defraggers relocated data in a compacting manner.. but they are done so in a algoritm that incorporates a means of grouping frequently used data to the front of the drive, as well as other criteria.. Lots of pc application have shared dll's with operating systems and other components that are on various locations on the drive.. which is why a performance increase is noticed after a defrag.

With a xbox, you DONT want to have the drive re-arranged based on anything but simply the root folder of the files. The games ONLY ever load data from their respective folder, other than small amts from maybe the E partition. There are no shared dll's. A traditional defrag program would just move segment of data around and not necessarity help performance. Yes it may compact and eliminate "fragmentation" but whats to say that X.xxx texture file is anywhere near the actual .xbe that requires it.

I could be assuming too much in how a PC based defragger works.. Im no programmer.. Ive never written or viewed any defrag source. I know plenty about the basic operation and this is my take on the method that should be used on the xbox. Its only logical if this is truly the case that the xbox defrag program should simply be a compacting system based completely on the root folders of each game.

This post has been edited by thejt: Feb 27 2004, 10:35 PM

mrRobinson · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2004, 05:12:00 PM »

yea you are all saying the same. you just need to defrag the files you don't need to move them like a pc defragmenter does. I'd say ava should just check for X amount of needed free space on F: before allowing a defrag and just create an F:\cache folder to be used just during the process. Just being able to defrag F: would suit me.

the joker · « **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2004, 03:22:00 PM »

to clear things up:

install game 1, and hdd looks like this :

11111111..................................

install app 2, and hdd looks like this :

111111112.................................

and so on.. in the end it might even look like this :

11111111234567890abcdeeeeeeffffff.......

lets say you delete app 2,5,9 :

11111111.34.678.0abcdeeeeeeffffff.......

then install game G :

11111111G34G678G0abcdeeeeeeffffffGGGG...

we have gone lowlevel on this issue, fatx seriously messes up the system, it fills the first openings first - then the larger areas.....no matter the size

you can have a 200 gb area free, it will fill the 2k empty hole first.

Rizight1 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 29, 2004, 11:54:00 AM »

Thanks to all that responded. Thejt, I guess what caught my attention was you saying that "you are only loading data from one confined location...Not pulling small amts of data from many locations around the drive" which I felt was incorrect in my scenario. I just wanted to know if my grasp on fragmentation was correct or not, which The Joker cleared up. Thanks again.

Author Topic: Defragmenter? (Read 1106 times)