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[gronned]

I've just had a debate with my friend about this matter, so I was eager to take it here as well.

He's an atheist too, or really he doesn't care at all, which is why it's not fun debating him. But one of the things he claimed was that religious people present evidence for the existence of god, do they? I mean they use arguments that it exists, but can they really present any evidence for its existence? If they could present an evidence it'd mean god does exist, right? Atheists don't have any evidence god does not exist, but we use arguments that are as valid as evidence for his non existence.

He was really stubborn on this, so I want to ask if religious people claim there are genuine evidences for god's existence. And then I'd be more than thrilled if you can say what they are.

And remember, an argument is NOT an evidence, but please give arguments as well.

[throwingks]

Where did the matter, that made up the contents of the big bang, come from?

This post has been edited by throwingks: Yesterday, 04:12 AM

[lostboyz]

if there was definitive evidence either way there wouldnt be any question about it

its all how you perceive the world on a finer level. If you feel we are just a random collection of electrons and matter then that is your opinion. If however you feel that there is a higher power to any degree has influence in your life then that is what you are going to believe.

I personally believe in a higher power for specific events in my life where i did not feel could possibly be random. Although I despise atheists and religious fanatics alike, the key I believe is to always be open to reshape your outlook on life rather then locking into one idea without the possibility of change.

[gronned]

QUOTE(throwingks @ Mar 2 2008, 04:05 AM)

Where did the matter, that made up the contents of the big bang, come from?

I don't know, I don't have a greater knowledge of the big bang. When talking about the issue of singularity I can't say how it works and neither can any scientist, to my knowledge. But big bang itself is questioned in the scientific realm too, so we'll have to see what happens there.
In order to answer your question though, it's not necessary to know what the issue of singularity is, as it wouldn't prove there's a god anyway.

That we don't know what caused the big bang to happen in the first place, does, at least, in no way prove a god created it. If one however do believe there was a god that created that "ignition", you'll be left with an even harder question to answer; what had created the ever so advanced god then?

QUOTE(lostboyz @ Mar 2 2008, 04:07 AM)

if there was definitive evidence either way there wouldnt be any question about it

its all how you perceive the world on a finer level. If you feel we are just a  then that is your opinion. If however you feel that there is a higher power to any degree has influence in your life then that is what you are going to believe.

I personally believe in a higher power for specific events in my life where i did not feel could possibly be random. Although I despise atheists and religious fanatics alike, the key I believe is to always be open to reshape your outlook on life rather then locking into one idea without the possibility of change.

That's a great motto, to allow yourself to change. I've changed my mind about virtually everything, but people still call me dogmatic =)

I would however totally disagree with your statement that we're a "random collection of electrons and matter".
There's NOTHING random about the evolution. It's trial and error, in an attempt to adapt to our surroundings. If it was random, how could any animal look the way they do? There's definitely nothing random about evolution.

[throwingks]

QUOTE(gronned @ Mar 1 2008, 10:38 PM)

I don't know, I don't have a greater knowledge of the big bang. When talking about the issue of singularity I can't say how it works and neither can any scientist, to my knowledge. But big bang itself is questioned in the scientific realm too, so we'll have to see what happens there.
In order to answer your question though, it's not necessary to know what the issue of singularity is, as it wouldn't prove there's a god anyway.

That we don't know what caused the big bang to happen in the first place, does, at least, in no way prove a god created it. If one however do believe there was a god that created that "ignition", you'll be left with an even harder question to answer; what had created the ever so advanced god then?

I was simply (ok, complexly) showing that with scientific reasoning, you can only prove things false. You cannot prove things true. Things are believed to be true after all possible methods to falsify have been exhausted. If someone were to make the statement, "Higher Intelligence created the matter that was compacted so tightly it created an explosion spewing that matter all over the universe" it would be impossible to falsify. He/She/They/It may not exist as religious people view their Higher Power to be, but logically you cannot falsify the possibility of an existence.

That does not mean there is and that does not mean there isn't a higher power. Just that logic means nothing to the argument. While you can logically disprove every single religion, that does not mean God does not exist. You know from my earlier posts I am a spiritual person, but I am anti-religion. Truthfully, because of the single though process behind my last post. I have pondered that question for many years (at least 8, because I remember talking about it with a very religious friend I haven't spoken to in 8 years) and I am no closer to the answer than I ever was.

So, what is the real answer? Love and respect yourself and others.

[gronned]

QUOTE(throwingks @ Mar 2 2008, 05:03 AM)

I was simply (ok, complexly) showing that with scientific reasoning, you can only prove things false. You cannot prove things true. Things are believed to be true after all possible methods to falsify have been exhausted. If someone were to make the statement, "Higher Intelligence created the matter that was compacted so tightly it created an explosion spewing that matter all over the universe" it would be impossible to falsify. He/She/They/It may not exist as religious people view their Higher Power to be, but logically you cannot falsify the possibility of an existence.

That does not mean there is and that does not mean there isn't a higher power. Just that logic means nothing to the argument. While you can logically disprove every single religion, that does not mean God does not exist. You know from my earlier posts I am a spiritual person, but I am anti-religion. Truthfully, because of the single though process behind my last post. I have pondered that question for many years (at least 8, because I remember talking about it with a very religious friend I haven't spoken to in 8 years) and I am no closer to the answer than I ever was.

So, what is the real answer? Love and respect yourself and others.

As you say, it's easy to logically disprove all religions, but I would claim it's fairly easy to logically disprove a god as well using rational arguments. Dawkins has very good rational arguments for it's non-existence in "The God delusion", which I recommend everyone to read. Russel's teapot is an interesting argument that's included in the book. It does in no way prove there is no god, but it's a rational argument for it's non-existence.

Whether a deity exists or not, is simply a yes or no-question, but with rational arguments the possibility of a yes as the answer is VERY slim.

Love and respect sounds as a lovely answer to everything, the problem is that religious people many times tend to lack heavily in moral. I saw a quote where 75% of americans are christian, and 10% are atheists. In prison, 75% were christian and 0.2% were atheists. Now I don't know of the validity of that quote, but I tend to believe there's some truth in it.

Anyway, I fear muslims taking over my country with sharia or attacking innocent people because we're infidels, but that they are muslims doesn't mean that christianity would be any better, they've made many atrocities as well, especially in Ireland.

[Libtoem]

Well here is something to ponder,if humans never existed would religion exist.

This post has been edited by Libtoem: Yesterday, 05:27 AM

[throwingks]

QUOTE(gronned @ Mar 1 2008, 11:25 PM)

As you say, it's easy to logically disprove all religions, but I would claim it's fairly easy to logically disprove a god as well using rational arguments. Dawkins has very good rational arguments for it's non-existence in "The God delusion", which I recommend everyone to read. Russel's teapot is an interesting argument that's included in the book. It does in no way prove there is no god, but it's a rational argument for it's non-existence.

Whether a deity exists or not, is simply a yes or no-question, but with rational arguments the possibility of a yes as the answer is VERY slim.

I see what you are saying about the teapot, but I believe my point is different. There is no logical need to explain a belief in a magical satellite teapot too small to see with our microscopes. However, there is matter throughout the universe moving in direction and speed that would appear to have originated from a singular source. As a logical thinker, I ask "why?" There is no logical thought process as to "there may be a teapot." You cannot prove by example and that is what the Russel is trying to do with his teapot.

QUOTE

Love and respect sounds as a lovely answer to everything, the problem is that religious people many times tend to lack heavily in moral. I saw a quote where 75% of americans are christian, and 10% are atheists. In prison, 75% were christian and 0.2% were atheists. Now I don't know of the validity of that quote, but I tend to believe there's some truth in it.

I have seen a similar quote somewhere in the past also. I am not sure if the numbers are right but I get where you are coming from. My theory is, people need "something to hold onto", and they need to feel protected by being part of a herd. In prison religion easily fills both needs.

QUOTE

Anyway, I fear muslims taking over my country with sharia or attacking innocent people because we're infidels, but that they are muslims doesn't mean that christianity would be any better, they've made many atrocities as well, especially in Ireland.

I don't want you to confuse religion with God. I personally do not believe they are related. They are both separate entities without a need for the other.

QUOTE(Libtoem @ Mar 1 2008, 11:27 PM)

Well here is something to ponder,if humans never existed would religion exist.

Humans are the only creatures with the frontal lobe and capacity to ponder such thoughts. Therefore, religion as we know it would not exist without us, or an equivalently intelligent species. But, that has nothing to do with God.

[gronned]

QUOTE(Libtoem @ Mar 2 2008, 05:27 AM)

Well here is something to ponder,if humans never existed would religion exist.

In a sense that's actually interesting. Because even if the answer to your question obviously is no, it should be fairly interesting anyway, as everyone should realize that all humans may die, and only animals continue to live (theoretically it could happen). Then who would praise the god(s)? Everyone knows animals don't praise any gods right now, and if we die, everything will continue without us, but the animals won't even wonder about gods(until they become as "advanced" as we are, at least). So what will the gods do if nobody cares about them at all?  

Throwingks: I have to go to bed, it's 5 in the morning here! I hope I get time to reply tomorrow. Fun having a discussion nonetheless... been a while something happened in this forum =)

[CJLee89]

QUOTE

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."

"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."

"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."

"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."

"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

I believe in God very much.

[StrictPuppet]

QUOTE(gronned @ Mar 1 2008, 08:57 PM)

...... Then who would praise the god(s)? Everyone knows animals don't praise any gods right now.....

I do not know this to be true.  While humans are reportedly the most adept at reasoning/free thought(non instinctual response), we are definitely not alone in this ability.  Our limited knowledge of things that are not like ourselves limits our ability to make such an assumption.  Other mammals  such as primates, whales, dolphins, and elephants have proven their ability to reason.  Interesting that the most intelligent class of animals is the same as our own.  Is it that way because their brain function is easiest for us to comprehend?  Could a honey bee not praise (its) god in a way that we could never understand?  Could it not have completely free thought via a mechanism that we have yet to discover.

God did not create man, man created God.   God fills a need to explain that which defies current explanation.  Does God exist?  He certainly does, for those that need him to, humans and honey bees alike.

[stiletto]

I think something to consider when it comes to animals is their inherent ability to form a cohesive unit. A group that cooperates and strives for the greater good. Every animal generally has its role (especially honeybees). If they were to be more advanced than we can currently understand and had free thought (non instinctual response) one would think certain hallmarks would be apparent. Most notably dissent, and conflict amoungst the ranks. I am not saying they all get along all the time but generally speaking nothing breaks apart a group like beliefs about a “god”. I would have to say at this point based on animal behavior they are blissfully unaware of a higher power. Perhaps they are truly advanced after all.

[sicknasty413]

Before I type my thoughts, I'd like to say this is a rather interesting thread and people's views and responses have been rather enlightening.

Hmm. Does God exist? Well, I personally cannot prove, nor disprove. his/her existence, nor do I know of anyone who can.

My life, my influences-

I currently reside in a very Christian town in central(ish) Virginia. And when I say "very Christian," I mean students in my high school carry bibles with them in their bookbags and whip 'em out during class and start reading them. The majority of them attend church on Sundays and also church on Wednesday nights. My school even has a "Fellowship Of Christian Athletes" Club.

To be honest, I was never truly exposed to Christianity during my childhood, and I'm thankful for that. My mom is actually Catholic (from the Philippines) and I was also baptized when I was a baby. But my dad on the other hand, has always considered him an atheist. I went to church a few times when I was a child and I simply recall  those occurrences some of the most boring times of my life.

Before I moved down to Virginia, I always saw Christianity as a "thing of the past." Like, something you'd read in history books and say, "Oh... well that's interesting that they thought that way" or poke fun at them for thinking that way, knowing you know better now. But, moving Virginia, I was felt as if I stepped right into the past, often pondering to myself, "Wow, people TRULY think this stuff!"

I've personally considered myself an atheist all my life and down here, I get judged for it. But I mean, that's basically how I was raised. I theorize that Christians would NOT be Christian if they weren't raised the way they were. You know, having preachers and pastors telling them that they'd go to a fiery place called hell where they'll be eternally tortured and what not unless they sign their life away to imaginary person they can't see, hear, touch, feel, or taste... with this all occurring in the most important development stages of one's life, their childhood. If a kid is getting taught this, getting this crap shoved down their throat, since the day they were born, OF COURSE they're gonna believe it. Why wouldn't they? They have no reason to question their parents or people their parents respect. Children are naive and would never think their parents would lie to them.. hell, at such early ages, children probably don't even know what a "lie" is!

Don't get me wrong though, I don't particularly have anything against Christians... I have a lot of friends that are Christian and a (pseudo) girlfriend that is extremely Christian.

About my dad.. I've mentioned that he's always considered himself an atheist, but ever since he's moved down here, he's turned into like.. a radical atheist... which pisses me off. It's okay to think what you want, but he's taken it to a whole new level. I compare his level of radical atheism to that of anyone's (down here) level of Christianity. He's starting to preach crap and argue with people and it's just disgusting. In my opinion, he's being just what he despises! And sure, I probably agree with most he says, but still. Can't personal thoughts stay exactly what they are? Personal?

As you see, I'm pretty much sick of people who preach their crap to everyone and assume they're automatically right. Christians and atheists.. doesn't matter.

Now to address other things-

The Big Bang- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? I mean, sure, we as society, don't know all about it, but does that mean it's not true? Just because we don't know where the matter came from doesn't mean we should automatically attach it some deity or dismiss the theory all together. It's a work-in-progress.

Evolution- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? To me, it just makes PERFECT sense. Geographical situations and various climates have caused species to physically (and mentally I suppose) adapt to their environment to better their chance of survival. Those who did survive, live on to reproduce; those who don't, die. How does that NOT make sense!? I just don't understand.

Morals- I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that others believe I'm immoral just because I don't believe in God/have a religion. Do morals really come from religion? I believe they can.. but it's not a necessity. I believe it's one's own decision what they think is right and wrong. I think that's what makes them who they are; it's what makes them an individual.

Gay Rights- This one pisses me off to the fullest extent. Christians seem to think homosexuality is wrong and that they can stop it, cure it, keep them from getting married, etc. It's prejudice! They're clearly keeping a group of people from doing what all other people are allowed to do. I strongly believe gays and lesbians should be able to marry; if they wanna suffer just like every other married couple, let 'em be!
---Here's an argument I've had with my super Christian (pseudo) girlfriend-
her: "It's wrong"
me: "You realize that's prejudice right?"
her: "No it's not. It's wrong."
me: "Okay, WHY is it wrong?"
her: "Because!"
me: "Because isn't a proper response."
her: ::eventually refers to some story from the bible::
me: "Wow, so God is prejudice!?!"
her: ::silent::
::awkward silence::

Dinosaurs- Don't Christians deny the existence of dinosaurs or something? Or believe the Earth is only like 1000 years old, thus dinosaurs couldn't possibly have existed millions and millions of years ago? I don't know. Perhaps I need a little more insight to this one. But regardless, denying scientific evidence that dates dinosaurs back to millions of years ago just seems idiotic to me. lol

Other random thoughts-

QUOTE

God did not create man, man created God. God fills a need to explain that which defies current explanation. Does God exist? He certainly does, for those that need him to, humans and honey bees alike.

I COMPLETELY agree with that. I personally do not need such an "item." I feel strong-willed enough to rely on myself and believe in myself, no matter what the situation.

-CJLee89 brings up an interesting story with very valid points. However, I feel it's flawed at the "brain" part. The professor's brain's existence can easily be proved. However, I realize that's not particularly the point of the story. Also, I feel the part about the student arguing with the teacher about evolution is flawed. Take for example the physical growth of a human being. Do you ever truly see them growing? Do you see them the next day and say, "Wow! You've grown one third of a millimeter!" I know I don't.. But does that mean people don't grow? Well, it's quite obvious they do, because.. well.. THEY DO. We simply conclude a person has grown by observing their change from a particularly height at one age to a particular height at a different age.. it just takes time to see the difference.. just like in evolution.

-I tend to put my "faith" in math. "Math?" you say. Yes. I believe I can easily relate my beliefs to probability. Example: What is the probability that Creationism is true compared to that of Evolution? In my mind, although I lack sufficient numbers, it is MUCH more likely that evolution got us where we are today. I wouldn't say Creationism is impossible, because I don't believe anything is impossible. Like, walking through a wall. What are the chances of that? Probably 59823475983274x10^5 to 1.. but that's just it.. it's simply improbable. And that's how I feel about Creationism.

Closing statements-
Well, clearly I've rambled on an ass load, so I'll end it here. Clearly, everyone's ideas are flawed and everyone is going to believe what they're going to believe. I feel it's very important to not dismiss all religions and ideas, but rather to take in all you can and better yourself as a human being. I feel those who are close-minded and simply focussed on one idea, religion, deity, etc will never succeed as much as those who open themselves up, whether it be socially, economically, or spiritually.

I'd like to thank those who have taken the time to read my extremely long response and to those who plan on criticizing my points in a very mature, adult-like manner.

[vide0bug13]

^ very well put.
pretty much what i was thinking.

[hamwbone]

I believe in my self and my actions. I am no puppet.