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[ThE MaSTeR 3]

OMG I have a flashed drive I hope my house doesn't get raided!!  

[twistedsymphony]

QUOTE(appleguru @ Aug 2 2007, 10:52 AM)

The applicable law here (The USC 17 § 1201 and § 1204) says that it's illegal to "manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in" devices and services whose primary function is to circumvent a copy protection measure on a digital work.

And so, if you consider a modchip as falling under that definition (and I do NOT; clearly others think otherwise...), then it's illegal to make, sell, or offer to anyone else. But buying them (at least domestically where no importing is involved) is not covered, and is therefore (technically anyways) legal.

really it depends what constitutes "primary use" is that YOUR primary use or the "primary use" of people who own that device.

The problem is that the DMCA is just too damn broad. under the DMCA you could very easily shut down microchip and Atmel, and if you're crafty enough you could stretch it to Dell and other computer manufacturers as they're "manufactured" and constitute "part" of the copyright circumvention system, but then we come back to primary use.

Really what it comes down to is that the DMCA is broad enough to cover everything under the sun allowing ICE and DHS or whoever to to just pick who they want to raid with little or no real foundation.

I forget who said it but I rember someone saying that the US had a system of for boxes: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the ammo box... use in that order.

It's pretty clear that the soap box and the ballot box have failed to deliver a copyright law that actually works in the interest of the creative individuals who actually create copyrighted materials or even the interests of the American citizens.

The next step is the Jury box...

Most people don't really understand this concept but the idea of a jury isn't just to determine whether or not a person broke the law but to question if the law is actually lawfull and worth having. It's part of our check and balance system and a major reason why most copyright issues are settled out of court. The ESA/RIAA/MPAA all propose ridiculous lawsuits and then make what looks like a sweet settlement deal to get people to settle, because if it ever went to court and they LOST it would set a presidence that future cases could use to win in the same fashion.

If you go back through all of the major RIAA cases you'll see that 99% of the time they never made it to court due to a settlement, and in the few times it did go to court the RIAA either dropped the case or modified the charges.

I realize this is your life we're talking about here but if we really want to see a difference we need a solid legal showing in the courts to correct the evil media spin and expose the ridiculousness that is the DMCA as well as set a presidence for future DMCA issues in the courts.

[Eksyte]

QUOTE

I realize this is your life we're talking about here but if we really want to see a difference we need a solid legal showing in the courts to correct the evil media spin and expose the ridiculousness that is the DMCA as well as set a presidence for future DMCA issues in the courts.

Too true.

Seems like the people who were caught today are going to take the fall for the rest of us. With that in mind, I'm wondering what we can do to help them out. Seems like a fund for legal fees would be most appropriate.

[jojones88]

Damn, MCM had just recieved my Wii about a week ago. What are the odds of me getting it back? I sent it in to be modded... They were out of stock on Wii chips at the time so I don't know if they have already mailed it back to me. What happens if the fuzz find it?

[ydgmms]

QUOTE(pirichios @ Aug 1 2007, 11:01 PM)

the problem is finding a lawyer thats informed and educated as you are twisted. if these shops had one they would kick ass in court (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

I believe the there is a part in the ACLU and definately the Electronic Frontier Foundation... now whose side they would be on... thats the question. I'm sure they would assist the modchip retailers.

Someone should definately look into that for the resellers, and they should surely look into it themselves. I know of a couple that post here that got raided, obviously, and I recommend you look into the EFF and/or ACLU.

This post has been edited by ydgmms: Aug 3 2007, 03:17 AM

[roger1079]

QUOTE(Ceazer @ Aug 2 2007, 09:19 AM)

could be DTV all over again    i hope and pray its not but never underestimate the greed of big business ....

you took the words right out of my mouth. for anyone that isnt aware of what happened with DTV a few years back, they used the very same "laws" that were used during these raids to go after companies that were selling ISO7816 compliant card readers/programmers. although at the time you could use a programmer like this to circumvent the protection on the then h-card that was used to secure the signal, there were also many legal uses for these readers as well. mixed into the many raids (that confiscated everything) there were companies marketing to the testing community, but there were also that were nothing more than victims of corporate/government strongarm tactics. in the end, not even canadian dealers were safe since the RCMP offered full cooperation to US agencies. the worst part about this all was that all customer lists were seized, and customers of these places began receiving threatening letters from lawyers basically stating that DTV was willing to forego lawsuits and criminal charges for compensation for signal loss from the time of the purchase of the "illegal" product up to the time the letter was issued as well as the customer surrendering all "signal theft" devices to DTV. i truly hope this isnt the same direction that this is all heading. sorry if this post is a bit incoherent, but its late. best wishes to all involved in this sad sad situation.

[appleguru]

QUOTE(Rustmonkey @ Aug 2 2007, 09:07 AM)

@ Appleguru

So you said they took EVERYTHING??? Including your inventory that WASNT modchips?  Thats bogus - how the hell does a faceplate infringe on copyrights?

Eh, scratch what I said earlier.. Just went over the item list; they took all the faceplates too

Given the ridiculously broad terms of the warrant, they were permitted to take pretty much everything.. looks like they took the faceplates under the "realted to the xbox 360 console" section.

QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Aug 2 2007, 05:09 PM)

I realize this is your life we're talking about here but if we really want to see a difference we need a solid legal showing in the courts to correct the evil media spin and expose the ridiculousness that is the DMCA as well as set a presidence for future DMCA issues in the courts.

Amen. Your words have been more inspiring than anything else I've read all day, and you couldn't have said this any better. My family is going to kill me, but I'm a man of strong convictions... And the time has come to stand up for what I believe in. While I'm not making up my mind now, (and it's going to be a tough decision when the time does come), the option of standing up and fighting for what I believe in is looking better than ever. Here's to a brighter future.

[death trap]

QUOTE(†Øßߥ @ Aug 2 2007, 09:06 PM)

Wow death trap well said.

Im here in the good old usofA and yes you right were fuck in this country.
Our lawmakers are under big business and TV evangelists pockets.

Yes we got all kind of wars here war on terror
war on drugs
war on piracy
war to make sure everyone

what's next war on fluffy bunnies?

oh you forgot war on religions.

If i had the $$$ i would move to a different country that all people are equal. Yes even Canada and France

Religion is the cause of all evil.  As a wise man once said,
"It will work through me, and I will do great evil, thinking I am doing great good."

I think the feds may of overstepped the line, it sounds like they want some new toys for the office.  Why did they need all the pads?

[lovo]

QUOTE(quenlin @ Aug 2 2007, 08:38 PM)

Just once I'd like to see modchip discussion without the homebrew idiots yapping about the legal uses of modchips.

Clearly modchips should be illegal. Why? Because even though it is possible to use it only for 100% legal purposes, the OVERWHELMING majority of people use them for piracy. Unfortunately, thats just the way it is. If you created something that was used for illegal purposes 98% of the time, can you honestly say that it should be legal, just because a microscopic amount of people wouldn't use it illegally? Of course not. Sometimes you have to examine something that's in a gray area, and just make a call on something. Making them illegal is just the right thing to do.

So in review:

Homebrew whiners - No, your xbox isn't designed to be a media center. Yes, it's cool that it is. For every one of you that use your chip for that only, 10,000 people don't.

Backup whiners - No, xbox games are not designed to be copied. Yes, I know you can legally backup your games. Have you ever played a backup you didn't own? ever? even once? Anyone who can answer that question 'Yes', congrats. That's about .000001% of you. The rest of you are thieves.

So because many uses it for illegal stuff. The ones who does not sould be punished? If i would get arrested because i all others used their gun to kill people, and i did not, i would have been pissed.
Most of the people who own's a car (at least here in Norway) is breaking the speedlimit etc regulary.
Does this mean that since 98% of the people are breaking the law, it should not be allowed to sell cars?

Se where im getting at? You cant punish all that mods xbox, just the once that actually are harming the corporations.

[chrislee149]

*sigh*

I sent my PSP to Foundmy for unbricking, which doesn't even involve modchips. However, now I may likely not get it back. At the least, I'll probably have to wait months.

[dev1os]

I agree a 100% with twisted, we need to put an end to this some how. Now I'm not normally a political person, and I don't know much about laws and such. But the way I see it is, our goverment and big business
have way to much say in what we can or can't do. I mean you can argue all day about the good vs the bad uses of a modchip, but take that out of the picture and all you have is someone telling us what we are allowed to do with the products we buy. It's not just the modchip it's everything. Think about it, is there anything that you can think of that's not regulated in some way? Now I'm saying lets throw laws out the window. Its just that alot of these laws are made not in the best intrest of the people, but in the best intrests of the goverment and big corporations. The cars we drive, the houses we live in, the electronics we buy, the movies and television that we watch, music, the video games we play, the medicine we buy,everything. We have to deal with censorhip, biased news channels, unfair laws. I thought this was supposed to be free country? We live in a place were the goverment has to much control, where the constitution can be bypassed and our leaders can do whatever they please. The people don't matter anymore. It's all about money and how they can make even more. I don't about you but I'm sick of it and something needs to be done. Any ideas on where to start?

To appleguru, you should take a stand, let me know what I can do to help, I dont have much but i'll do what i can.

[slayer410]

QUOTE(snart @ Aug 1 2007, 04:24 PM)

Almost. It's illegal to sell any item that circumvents copy protection.

The law should be -
It's illegal to sell any item specifically manufactured to circumvent copy protection.

An example of this-

Bleach can be used to clean dirty piss as far as drug tests go.
The law says any product specifically manufactured with the sole intent of helping the passing of a drug test is illegal to sell.
What if every manufact. of bleach and provider were raided.

All I can say is wow...

[sickoftheman]

first of my list is....what ever happened to people that got raided? Is it a felony to sell modchips or offer modding?

secondly, here's the mission statement from ICE. I thought it was funny how the US DOJ assigned the investigation of copyright infringement and IPR to the ICE agency. It doesnt' make sense! The mission statement says to protect our borders from terrorist....blah..blah. Illegal immigrants who 'could' be terrorist. Last I known 'Jose' at the local resturant was just trying to make money for family in Mexico.

http://www.ice.gov/about/index.htm

Read it and tell me how it relates to modchips? Also, when you look at the pictures of the recent 'achievements' of the agency for August. You see modchips listed next to people who they should only focus on, ie MS13. Gangsters who shoot people in crowded streets. Yeah, just kind of interesting. It's like the doj didn't know how to  properly assign an agency for modchips. Yes I agree that modchips come from canada, so it falls into the Immigrations and Customs territory. But, if you look at the mission statement as whole....it doesn't make sense. How is selling modchips a threat to our national security. What a joke!

So is anybody willing to sell chips to us citizens?

[H4L0G33K]

Anyone ever hear anything more on these guys? I'm surprised no-one else has said much or updated what happened to them as a victim of these raids.