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[pug_ster]

http://www.cbsnews.c...in2704565.shtml

You heard of the stories about crime ridden poor black communities are so crime ridden in the first place?  They blame on the city, state, white people for the problem and everybody else but themselves.  Think 'stop snitchin' as in stop working with the police to get rid of the bad people in their own backyard.  This 'stop snitchin' attitude is so bad they black artists glorifing this idea in songs and videos about it as snitching 'hurts' their business.

People like Tupac and Notorious BIG got gunned down yet nobody got convicted.  There must be a lot people who witnessed the crime yet nobody stepped foward because of it.  That's why many poor black communities are always the anchor in America's society.

[_iffy]

I don't think this is a black issue, more of a poverty issue. If you look at gettos and slums around the world, there's always the same code of silence.

That article stated an example of a serial killer living next door to you. When your poor you can't move, and if you report it there's a good chance you'll get shot.

When your poor, you have a sense of helplessness, that leads you to distrust police. You hear more stories of people getting killed than you hear of police solving a crime. The police are viewed as inept, and it's pointless to help them.

The "don't be a snitch" is more a safety measure than an attitude. Why take the risk?

The favelas in Rio de Janeiro, are so bad, that the army is afraid to go in there. The drug lords control the land and vigilante justice rules. The people that live there would never talk to the police. They would be dead by the end of the day. The poor are desperate and they have no choice but to tolerate it.


As for the hip-hop community. Rappers have always talked about what they see and hear and "told it how it is." Unfortunately, now that rap has become more main-stream, there's more rappers who originated from the suburbs instead of the getto, who need to build their "street cred". Jumping on any band wagon they can, they jump on the snitch angle just like any other.

It's the listeners(middle class suburb rap fans) who proliferate the need for street cred and it's the rappers who need to compensate for a lack of talent.

This post has been edited by _iffy: Apr 23 2007, 08:05 PM

[throwingks]

^
Word!

[[H8]Wal-Mart]

QUOTE(_iffy @ Apr 23 2007, 07:35 PM)

I don't think this is a black issue, more of a poverty issue. If you look at gettos and slums around the world, there's always the same code of silence.

That article stated an example of a serial killer living next door to you. When your poor you can't move, and if you report it there's a good chance you'll get shot.

When your poor, you have a sense of helplessness, that leads you to distrust police. You hear more stories of people getting killed than you hear of police solving a crime. The police are viewed as inept, and it's pointless to help them.

The "don't be a snitch" is more a safety measure than an attitude. Why take the risk?

The favelas in Rio de Janeiro, are so bad, that the army is afraid to go in there. The drug lords control the land and vigilante justice rules. The people that live there would never talk to the police. They would be dead by the end of the day. The poor are desperate and they have no choice but to tolerate it.
As for the hip-hop community. Rappers have always talked about what they see and hear and "told it how it is." Unfortunately, now that rap has become more main-stream, there's more rappers who originated from the suburbs instead of the getto, who need to build their "street cred". Jumping on any band wagon they can, they jump on the snitch angle just like any other.

It's the listeners(middle class suburb rap fans) who proliferate the need for street cred and it's the rappers who need to compensate for a lack of talent.

I know that not to be true. The attitude of trying to understand it is what is perpetuating it. People who do not participate or contribute to society should be driven out of it instead of special provisions being made for them. If they want to function as their own society, then let them. You cannot make them a part of yours.

Edit: I re-read the topic and realized that if you thought I was speaking of black people specifically that my post would come off as extremely racist. Please understand that I have no race in mind. I am speaking of people who refuse to acknowledge society and it's rules and feel like everyone owes them.

This post has been edited by [H8]Wal-Mart: Apr 23 2007, 10:18 PM

[pug_ster]

The black rappers portray the 'Pol-lease' as a bunch of people who betray the black folks.  Perhaps before the segregation, 'jim crow' days, that would be true.  Today, the media gave such leadway to black people that they believe a drugged up black stripper rather than 3 White Duke Students.  

As the issue with Don Imus, the only black activists blame on Whites like Don for putting them down.  These black folks marched in front NBC and CBS buildings and demanded that Don Imus be removed, and they did.  Why not these black activists go to places like Warner Bros headquarters and demand that they remove Asylum Records to shut down because that music have a negative influence on black people.

See those crazy black activists complain when some white or non black person beating on black folks and you don't see anybody protesting over a Black on White Crime.  If Black people wants to be equal as White people maybe they should start act like it, start with comdeming there are some black folks put down themselves.

[_iffy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Apr 23 2007, 09:04 PM)

The black rappers portray the 'Pol-lease' as a bunch of people who betray the black folks.  Perhaps before the segregation, 'jim crow' days, that would be true.

Not too recently this was true for new orleans and LA.
The LA riots were about the cop corruption, and the lack of government help. Rodney king was just the spark of the powder keg.
In new orleans, twenty years ago, there was massive corruption. Bribes, murder, planting evidence.

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Apr 23 2007, 09:04 PM)

Today, the media gave such leadway to black people that they believe a drugged up black stripper rather than 3 White Duke Students.

They ended up being exonerated. However, whenever anyone, black or white, cries rape, the police, media, and the general population, have a guilty until proven innocent attitude. I do agree with you how the media takes a story and runs away with it, without hearing all the facts. I do agree that, that's wrong, but I don't think it's a black/white issue in this case.
BBC world news is a very impartial news broadcast (little to no speculation). Much better than CNN.

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Apr 23 2007, 09:04 PM)

As the issue with Don Imus, the only black activists blame on Whites like Don for putting them down.  These black folks marched in front NBC and CBS buildings and demanded that Don Imus be removed, and they did.  Why not these black activists go to places like Warner Bros headquarters and demand that they remove Asylum Records to shut down because that music have a negative influence on black people.

imus has been on the air doin' that shit for years. I have no idea why it took so long for people to complain. Asylum records makes more money than imus. It might be harder to shut them down.



I can see where you frustrations coming from pug. But I'm sure you haven't seen all the failed black activists attempts at shutting down all the "asylums" of the world because they just don't get the news coverage.

[gronned]

QUOTE

Wal-Mart' date='Apr 23 2007, 10:35 PM' post='3970561']
I know that not to be true. The attitude of trying to understand it is what is perpetuating it. People who do not participate or contribute to society should be driven out of it instead of special provisions being made for them. If they want to function as their own society, then let them. You cannot make them a part of yours.

Edit: I re-read the topic and realized that if you thought I was speaking of black people specifically that my post would come off as extremely racist. Please understand that I have no race in mind. I am speaking of people who refuse to acknowledge society and it's rules and feel like everyone owes them.

You're a true-blue republican, that's for sure
Should people who do not "contribute" to society be driven out? The definition of "not contributing" in itself would be quite interesting to know about.
There are reasons everything happens to people. Gang-members would most likely not even be criminal had they been born in a "better area". I know of adopted people that are more "Swedish" than I'd ever be, the only difference is their skin-colour.  
Despite having much smaller problems with gangs in my country than others, they still exist, but it's mainly because they've grouped themselves together in suburbs, and politically we've unfortunately allowed it. Even though they're given a lot of money in welfare, they still see the rich Swedes as aliens to them because they're not integrated enough with us. Separating people from another has always been means for racism. So if one look at the bigger picture it's obvious that trying to drive people out that don't "fit" in society, is just ways to increase the problems.

So what's the solution? Proper integration. What's encapsulated in that is harder to understand, but I don't think e.g. welfare money in itself should have a too big part of it.
So one way or the other they have to get integrated with each other. But the white people don't want them in their society, because all they "think" they know of them is that they cause problems, so it's like a catch 22-problem.

It's very easy for us being born in rich white families to say that immigrants or other minorities are only problems, and we believe they don't want to work either as they've chosen criminality instead. But what if they were "forced" into criminality? My adopted friends are all proper and work, simply because they've come to a healthy society that immediately accepted them as any other Swede.

People become bad because of a reason. Take away that reason, however hard it may be, and they'll be "contributing" to society. As humanity will hopefully live on for thousands of years, there's no reason to continue separating people.

[[H8]Wal-Mart]

QUOTE(gronned @ Apr 25 2007, 03:20 PM)

You're a true-blue republican, that's for sure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Should people who do not "contribute" to society be driven out? The definition of "not contributing" in itself would be quite interesting to know about.
There are reasons everything happens to people. Gang-members would most likely not even be criminal had they been born in a "better area". I know of adopted people that are more "Swedish" than I'd ever be, the only difference is their skin-colour.  
Despite having much smaller problems with gangs in my country than others, they still exist, but it's mainly because they've grouped themselves together in suburbs, and politically we've unfortunately allowed it. Even though they're given a lot of money in welfare, they still see the rich Swedes as aliens to them because they're not integrated enough with us. Separating people from another has always been means for racism. So if one look at the bigger picture it's obvious that trying to drive people out that don't "fit" in society, is just ways to increase the problems.

So what's the solution? Proper integration. What's encapsulated in that is harder to understand, but I don't think e.g. welfare money in itself should have a too big part of it.
So one way or the other they have to get integrated with each other. But the white people don't want them in their society, because all they "think" they know of them is that they cause problems, so it's like a catch 22-problem.

It's very easy for us being born in rich white families to say that immigrants or other minorities are only problems, and we believe they don't want to work either as they've chosen criminality instead. But what if they were "forced" into criminality? My adopted friends are all proper and work, simply because they've come to a healthy society that immediately accepted them as any other Swede.

People become bad because of a reason. Take away that reason, however hard it may be, and they'll be "contributing" to society. As humanity will hopefully live on for thousands of years, there's no reason to continue separating people.

You can say I'm a Republican all day long... and if by your definition that means logical and a realist then so-be-it. There is no such thing as being "forced" into criminality. Sure people are born with different opportunities, but that's the beauty of America at least. No matter where you come from, if you TRY you can pretty much do whatever you want. That's just it, if you're lazy and don't want to do anything with yourself then you'll either sell drugs or steal. Why should we integrate these worthless people any more into our society? They alienated themselves! Nobody said just because you're poor you have to be a criminal. That means get out there and work hard. I know this because I am one of those people. I have never had anything given to me. Yes there are people worse off than me, and no I'm not the hardest worker, but I have made it so far. Everyone else can too. It's people like you who always want to "understand" why people do evil things and try to make exception for them. It is OBVIOUS that you are a bleeding-heart liberal. Sometimes that's a great thing. In the cases we've discussed here recently it is not. It's never good to look for why a psychopath massacred a bunch of people nor is it a good idea to try to rationalize why criminals choose crime. I can explain it to you. They don't want to take the narrow path. They want to take easy street. If we as society do not give breaks and help these worthless people, then they will either have to stand on their own two feet and contribute to society or they will die. Either way we're better off.

Edit: I just noticed you wanted my definition of "contribute". Well that means you give more than you take. So that rules out these social parasites that we are talking about that leech off of society. It's really a cut-and-dry explanation.
I like you... and I LOVED this sentence "
People become bad because of a reason. Take away that reason, however hard it may be, and they'll be "contributing" to society."
I agree totally. That reason is because WE LET THEM!. If we don't allow for it in our society through giving only EARNED welfare, and strict drug testing for employment, and rewarding members of society who are trying their hardest (even if they are not succeeding) and not always looking for reasons why people are evil and simply shunning them then they will no longer be able to be evil. They will sink or swim. Unfortunately the bleeding-heart liberals will say "oh we can't do that". "It's our fault these people are bad and we need to look for the reason." People have been saying that forever. The PROBLEM is we let them do these things. We tolerate it. Stop tolerating it and it will stop the problem.

This post has been edited by [H8]Wal-Mart: Apr 25 2007, 04:42 PM

[damam]

QUOTE(gronned @ Apr 25 2007, 03:20 AM)

So what's the solution? Proper integration.

did i read that right?  someone from the left is suggesting enculturation?  When ever I suggest a merging I am often called a hate monger.  Maybe there is hope for us yet to be on the same page of something gronned

QUOTE(_iffy)

The "don't be a snitch" is more a safety measure than an attitude. Why take the risk?

completely agree

[Vfreitas]

Wow, iffy killed it. Summed up everything I wanted to say.

[gronned]

QUOTE

Wal-Mart' date='Apr 25 2007, 04:58 PM' post='3972346']
You can say I'm a Republican all day long... and if by your definition that means logical and a realist then so-be-it. There is no such thing as being "forced" into criminality. Sure people are born with different opportunities, but that's the beauty of America at least. No matter where you come from, if you TRY you can pretty much do whatever you want. That's just it, if you're lazy and don't want to do anything with yourself then you'll either sell drugs or steal. Why should we integrate these worthless people any more into our society? They alienated themselves! Nobody said just because you're poor you have to be a criminal. That means get out there and work hard. I know this because I am one of those people. I have never had anything given to me. Yes there are people worse off than me, and no I'm not the hardest worker, but I have made it so far. Everyone else can too. It's people like you who always want to "understand" why people do evil things and try to make exception for them. It is OBVIOUS that you are a bleeding-heart liberal. Sometimes that's a great thing. In the cases we've discussed here recently it is not. It's never good to look for why a psychopath massacred a bunch of people nor is it a good idea to try to rationalize why criminals choose crime. I can explain it to you. They don't want to take the narrow path. They want to take easy street. If we as society do not give breaks and help these worthless people, then they will either have to stand on their own two feet and contribute to society or they will die. Either way we're better off.

Edit: I just noticed you wanted my definition of "contribute". Well that means you give more than you take. So that rules out these social parasites that we are talking about that leech off of society. It's really a cut-and-dry explanation.
I like you... and I LOVED this sentence "
People become bad because of a reason. Take away that reason, however hard it may be, and they'll be "contributing" to society."
I agree totally. That reason is because WE LET THEM!. If we don't allow for it in our society through giving only EARNED welfare, and strict drug testing for employment, and rewarding members of society who are trying their hardest (even if they are not succeeding) and not always looking for reasons why people are evil and simply shunning them then they will no longer be able to be evil. They will sink or swim. Unfortunately the bleeding-heart liberals will say "oh we can't do that". "It's our fault these people are bad and we need to look for the reason." People have been saying that forever. The PROBLEM is we let them do these things. We tolerate it. Stop tolerating it and it will stop the problem.

Sure, no one is rarely forced into criminality by definition, but if you're born in the hood, everywhere you turn you'll see poor black people around you and the white people you occasionally get to see are rich and alienated from you. So, among other things, I suppose there's a lot of envy towards the white man, which results in racism.
And the gang-members want to grab the kids early on, so in that sense I believe it's often hard not to choose that path when everything you're surrounded by is hatred towards white people. One can easily say it's up to them not to get into that path, but I believe we're extremely affected by our surroundings. White people simply have a lot of unfair advantages at birth, the strength comes in black people that proves it's possible to get to the top despite everything. They're all true icons for the rest of the black community. But so far there's too many hinders for the general black man to get out of the ghetto.

My best bet to get integration to work would be in kindergarten and ground school. Where it's possible I think kindergartens should be forced to have some rule of "every other race"-principle, even though that means longer trips for some. Kids are not prejudice, and I'm absolutely positive they'll get along fine over the races, and early on realize we're all the same.

When it comes to welfare money I think the whole concept of it has to be dramatically redesigned. There's an idiom in my language that says "to do someone a bear-favour", meaning you think you do someone a favour, but that favour is actually counter-productive. We give foreigners way too much in welfare, and since you can comfortably live on that welfare they simply choose not to work. I think welfare is important to foreigners, but we must encourage and help them to work. But the solution isn't only to cut it a bit, even though it's a part of it.

In my opinion it's very important to try and analyse why things happen, how could one otherwise come up with a solution? I'm generally not a believer in drastic changes, as they rarely solve anything than for the time being, therefore it's important to analyse as much as possible to solve things in the long run.

And btw, I agree that too many liberals (which I'd probably be if I were an American) often don't rationalise the side-effects certain political ideas can have. Though, the same goes for too "logical" conservatives.

Damam: I was quite sure liberals were pro integration, and conservatives were con, weird    Scary, maybe I'm more similar to you than I'd ever think... Well, if I'm a conservative now I'm in great need of that  

[[H8]Wal-Mart]

QUOTE(gronned @ Apr 26 2007, 03:41 PM)

Sure, no one is rarely forced into criminality by definition, but if you're born in the hood, everywhere you turn you'll see poor black people around you and the white people you occasionally get to see are rich and alienated from you. So, among other things, I suppose there's a lot of envy towards the white man, which results in racism.
And the gang-members want to grab the kids early on, so in that sense I believe it's often hard not to choose that path when everything you're surrounded by is hatred towards white people. One can easily say it's up to them not to get into that path, but I believe we're extremely affected by our surroundings. White people simply have a lot of unfair advantages at birth, the strength comes in black people that proves it's possible to get to the top despite everything. They're all true icons for the rest of the black community. But so far there's too many hinders for the general black man to get out of the ghetto.

My best bet to get integration to work would be in kindergarten and ground school. Where it's possible I think kindergartens should be forced to have some rule of "every other race"-principle, even though that means longer trips for some. Kids are not prejudice, and I'm absolutely positive they'll get along fine over the races, and early on realize we're all the same.

When it comes to welfare money I think the whole concept of it has to be dramatically redesigned. There's an idiom in my language that says "to do someone a bear-favour", meaning you think you do someone a favour, but that favour is actually counter-productive. We give foreigners way too much in welfare, and since you can comfortably live on that welfare they simply choose not to work. I think welfare is important to foreigners, but we must encourage and help them to work. But the solution isn't only to cut it a bit, even though it's a part of it.

In my opinion it's very important to try and analyse why things happen, how could one otherwise come up with a solution? I'm generally not a believer in drastic changes, as they rarely solve anything than for the time being, therefore it's important to analyse as much as possible to solve things in the long run.

And btw, I agree that too many liberals (which I'd probably be if I were an American) often don't rationalise the side-effects certain political ideas can have. Though, the same goes for too "logical" conservatives.

Damam: I was quite sure liberals were pro integration, and conservatives were con, weird  (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)  Scary, maybe I'm more similar to you than I'd ever think... Well, if I'm a conservative now I'm in great need of that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)  (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

All good points and I think you hit the nail on the head with the "bear-favour" remark. We agree on the situation but do not agree on the solution. Although I take issue that white kids are privelidged and black kids are not. Everyone has the same opportunity naturally and the way things are set up it's easier to get a job or get into college if you're black, it's just that they don't want to try because it's not easy. There are white kids in gangs and a gang near where I grew up. The difference is my parents kept me from doing things like that. So don't tell me that just becuase you're black that your parents have to suck. They do because it's easy to suck as a parent and not easy to care about your child. The reason I feel the way I do is this:
If you combine everything, by what factor will the end result come out? That question is confusing but hopefully the answer will clarify what I meant. The lowest common denominator. If you "integrate" everyone, these people will keep doing what they are presently doing because they can, and more people will join them because it's easier. If you have 2 promiscuous females, and you place your 2 conservative daughters with them, over time they will become sexually active. It is all around you. The ONLY way to make people change is to not allow them to survive the way they currently are.
We currently give these "bear-favours" that allow this cycle to perpetuate. Instead we need to disallow it. Make no more exceptions for it. Cut these people off from our supply as long as they remain at the status quo. They cannot survive without our society. Soon they will have to figure out how to function independantly rather than as a parasitic drain. It is the only plausible solution.

[WetPamper]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Apr 23 2007, 07:58 PM)

http://www.cbsnews.c...in2704565.shtml

You heard of the stories about crime ridden poor black communities are so crime ridden in the first place?  They blame on the city, state, white people for the problem and everybody else but themselves.  Think 'stop snitchin' as in stop working with the police to get rid of the bad people in their own backyard.  This 'stop snitchin' attitude is so bad they black artists glorifing this idea in songs and videos about it as snitching 'hurts' their business.

Poor black communities arent really any different than poor white ones. Except maybe the poor whites looking for crack cocaine frequent the black communities and the opposite isnt as prevalent given negroes generally dont prefer methamphetamines.

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Apr 23 2007, 07:58 PM)

http://www.cbsnews.c...in2704565.shtml

People like Tupac and Notorious BIG got gunned down yet nobody got convicted.  There must be a lot people who witnessed the crime yet nobody stepped foward because of it.  That's why many poor black communities are always the anchor in America's society.

Tupac Shakur and BIG probably make more money than: me. you, your mom, your dad and everyone elses that has read this thread. To compare in particular these two who wear $ 200 boxers to Joe Blow Negro is somewhat illogical.

Dont you think???  

QUOTE

Couey occupied a trailer along with two women, 100 yards away, at the time of Lunsford's abduction.[2] In a videotaped and recorded deposition which later was thrown out by his Florida trial court (see below), he admitted to sexually assaulting Lunsford in his bedroom.[3] The admission stated that she was kept in his bed that evening, where he raped her again in the morning. It further stated that Couey put her in his closet and ordered her to remain there, which she did as he reported for work at "Billy's Truck Lot".[1] Lastly, the admission recounted that three days after he abducted her, Couey bound the child's wrists together with speaker wire, placed her in a garbage bag, placed the bag containing her inside another garbage bag and buried her alive in a shallow grave, where she suffocated to death.

Source

QUOTE

Privately, however, some investigators involved in the case said they do not believe his story, because he has admitted to smoking crack cocaine during the time he held Jessica Lunsford, who lived near the mobile home he shared with his sister and others in Homosassa Springs, a town in central Florida.

Source

Should we blame this on Kid Rock or maybe Marshall Mathers, given no one "snitched" This guy was only suspected after it was found out he was sex offender.


While the two other occupants of the trailer turned a deaf ear while he raped and tortured this little girl.

[pug_ster]

QUOTE(WetPamper @ Jul 18 2007, 09:23 PM)

Poor black communities arent really any different than poor white ones. Except maybe the poor whites looking for crack cocaine frequent the black communities and the opposite isnt as prevalent given negroes generally dont prefer methamphetamines.

You might be right in the choice of drugs between black and white communities.  However, it has nothing to do with 'snitching.'

QUOTE

Tupac Shakur and BIG probably make more money than: me. you, your mom, your dad and everyone elses that has read this thread. To compare in particular these two who wear $ 200 boxers to Joe Blow Negro is somewhat illogical.

Dont you think???  

Again, I'm sure that they made more money than most people but has nothing to do with snitching.

QUOTE

Source
Source

Should we blame this on Kid Rock or maybe Marshall Mathers, given no one "snitched" This guy was only suspected after it was found out he was sex offender.
While the two other occupants of the trailer turned a deaf ear while he raped and tortured this little girl.

Well, I'm sure most people would less likely to snitch their brother than some stranger.

[WetPamper]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Jul 21 2007, 12:57 AM)

Well, I'm sure most people would less likely to snitch their brother than some stranger.

(IMG:http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/news/original/0507/madeleine_mccann/Mr-Mrs-McCann200.jpg)

I guess snitching isn't big in Europe either, they must be BIG 2pac fans, excuse the PUN.

LOL  

Police found clumps of the little girls hair in the trunk of the rental, along with hits from a cadaver dog.

Glad this witch isn't my neighbor.

This post has been edited by WetPamper: Oct 12 2007, 11:36 PM