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Author Topic: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?  (Read 654 times)

puckSR

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2005, 09:06:00 PM »

Ok after taking my side of the challenge seriously, and wading though a few KKK and neo-nazi pages that you directed me too, i guess you dont really care about anyone elses pespective, but just for the purpose of information


That's not true. The Torah - the Five Books of Moses is Judaism's "holiest" book, however it has two parts, a written part (which is what Christians are familiar with) and an Oral part (which the early Christians abandoned). The Oral part, or "Oral Law" is analogous to be a body of jurispudence and procedures to accompany the written law and is understood to have been handed down from Moses around the 1200's BCE. It was expressly forbidden to write it down because it was thought that any such attempt would be incomplete but after much debate, it became apparent that the only way to preserve it would be to write it down and this was done between 70CE and 200 CE in the form of the Mishna and the supplementary Tosefta. Later the Gemara was added as additional material and was written between 200CE and 500CE. Finally around 500 CE this and other material were included in the encyclopedic Talmud consisting of 5,894 pages and there are many further works in addition to these as well.

The point of saying this is that in the absence of any interpretation via an oral tradition, it is difficult to understand what was meant. For example, the classic "eye for an eye" quote (Exodus 21:24 and Leviticus 24:17-22) which Christians interpret literally has no such interpretation in Judaism. No Jewish court has ever blinded or otherwise inflicted physical injury as revenge or retribution. The phrase is interpreted to mean what the perpetrator of a crime deserves, not what he should get. Another example is that despite the existence of capital punishment in the Hebrew Bible, Jewish courts rarely issued the death penalty as extremely strict conditions were imposed on who was considered valid witnesses and other requirements which were difficult to meet in practice.

Other examples proving the existence of the Oral Law within the Bible relate to the fact that many terms, procedures, rights and responsibilites are assumed to be common knowledge within the text. A common expression is "as I have commanded you" but it doesn't say anywhere what the command was, except that it known from the Oral part of the Bible.

The Talmud derives its authority from the Torah on which it is based..
David S. Maddison ([email protected])


reference
http://www.frum.org/talmud/index.asp


People, dont believe until you have explored that belief

Any further conversation on this topic of Jesus being jewish is strictly off topic unless you can provide the basis for your argument from reference, and not from heresay or personal belief
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jaydon34

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2005, 09:10:00 PM »

Wow xbox-scene is getting really deep. Although I have lost all faith in religion. I continue live my life according to my own morals and ethics.
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thewickedjester

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2005, 09:12:00 PM »

QUOTE(jaydon34 @ Jul 18 2005, 11:21 PM)
Wow xbox-scene is getting really deep. Although I have lost all faith in religion. I continue live my life according to my own morals and ethics.
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jaydon34

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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2005, 09:24:00 PM »

QUOTE(thewickedjester @ Jul 19 2005, 01:23 AM)
This is the way (in my opinion) that it should be, religon should be like guidelines. Some people take it to literally and thats when shit hits the fan.
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thewickedjester

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2005, 09:38:00 PM »

tongue.gif
4. This is horrible, when people lie to try and further their own claims or arguments. I really dont have much to say on it other than it happens, and its very bad.
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thewickedjester

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2005, 09:52:00 PM »

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 18 2005, 11:59 PM)
By the way, i think conflict is good.  How boring would it be if we all figured out that the Mormons were right.
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deftonesmx17

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2005, 09:19:00 AM »

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 18 2005, 10:26 PM)
Science has never attacked the bible.

Thats funny as anyone with sense can see you have done nothing so far but attack the bible and chirstians. Lets be serious, look at your title and what this tread is about. Christians lie...............I feel that was an attack. Just as you felt it was an attack for me to say science does nothing but try to prove the bible wrong. You were very quick to reply and prove that science does not attack the bible...........even though I didnt say that. I said, it tries to prove the bible wrong.

The science of Evolution attacks the bible. If you would stop to think for a second, you would have known what science I was referring to. Medicine is a science and I wouldn't say it attacks god. I also suggest you get your facts straight about a few things. There is a difference among every denomination of christianity. It states very clearly in the bible that God frowns upon denominations and congregations. This is what causes your confusion about such things as People that Kill Muslims and KKK members being "christians". Hell I "can" say I worship Satan while I do nothing but pray to god. Would that mean anything besides the fact that I am off my rocker? Many Catholics believe that men of the curch are closer to God than others. Which is complete falsehood if they ever read their own book. Yet they continue to have that belief. Do you know the real reason why little boys are molested? Those preists have taken things so out of context that they believe it is not sex. That is why it is with young boys and not women.

What a person says has no true meaning. Good for you, you can only point out the follies of this world and people. The Crusades were done in the name of GOD. Does that mean a single thing about God? No it does not. Muslim fundamentalists kill themselves for God. Is that what God wanted..........NO, but thats what they think in their twisted mind. This is the same as KKK members or anyone that harms/kills someone in the name of God. KKK members are about the worst example you could ever use. Christian KKK member is an oxymoron. All that means is they are nuts. Are KKK members not nuts anyways, does it matter what they say? It is all stupid. Every word out of their mouth is ignorance. To use them as an example of christianity is also complete ignorance on your behalf.

I see you also assume the "dinosaur" creature I talk about in the bible. Let me quote the dinosaur verses in the bible I was referring to.

Job
40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
40:19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
40:20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
40:21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
40:22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
40:23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
40:24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

The King James Version has left the word behemoth untranslated, because we don not know these animals anymore.
The animal that really fits the description of a behemoth is the Brachiosaurus.

Some commentators have suggested that the Behemoth could be a hippo, or an elephant. But both of these suggestions ignore the physical description of the Behemoth given in the Bible. Hippos and elephants have very short tails. The Behemoth described in the Bible had a tail so long and so strong that God compared it to a cedar tree. The Behemoths tail was as long as, and as strong as the trunk of a tree. Yet it could easily bend like one of its flexible branches. This description fits no living animal. This does not imply that the behemoth was a mythical animal, perhaps it is just an extinct one.(hmmm common sense)

Dinosaurs lived millions of years before man. rolleyes.gif
Want know something funny? The amazing thing is there is no evidence to support the belief that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. In fact, the physical evidence contradicts this very idea (contrary to what you may have been told, dinosaur bones are NOT carbon dated. They are "assigned" an age based on how old someone thinks they are, based upon the geologic column). Did you know that dinosaur bones that are carbon dated give dates of only a few thousand years old?  Not millions like evolutionists claim. Dinosaurs have been found in the same layer of rock as man. This in itself falsifies the gap of millions of years that Evolutionists claim separates them.

The word "dinosaur" is not found anywhere in the Bible. This is because the word "Dinosaur" was not invented until the mid 1800's. The "King James Bible" was translated into English in 1611. So we would not expect to find the word "dinosaur."

Lets also clarify something else. Since you are arguing and not knowing what the bible speaks.
All dinosaurs were created to live in peace with man, the same as all animals. There was no such thing as a carnivore before sin. Sin was brought about because of man and woman. Dinosaurs were meant to be beautiful creatures, just like serpants(Satan was the most beautiful serpant to ever exist).

Science.............
No Scientist was there when the earth was formed or when life began. So any ideas they currently have are only educated guesses. This makes them no more accurate than what I believe in.
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BinaryMod

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2005, 09:52:00 AM »

QUOTE(runawaywarthog @ Jul 17 2005, 06:13 PM)

So what is this truth you speak of? tell me because i want to find it out so i can stop looking like a fool. have you died? can you physically prove to me there is no god? explain life, explain the complexity of everything. have you ever thought about what the chances are that anything like this could happen?



im not saying theres a possibility of God or whatever you worship... but in my opinion I need some type of proof.

also since im not very religious... will my dog, cat, my fish, and other kind loving animals go to heaven ect. ?  I dont think they really believe much in religion - but you never know.

and if they dont go to heaven... its amazing we would be the only life form to make it into heaven.
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puckSR

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2005, 11:59:00 AM »

QUOTE
No Scientist was there when the earth was formed or when life began. So any ideas they currently have are only educated guesses. This makes them no more accurate than what I believe in.


This is actually wrong.  Im once again not trying to be rude, but your knowledge comes from one book.  The only wholly supporting evidence of the validity of your book is your book.(There are many parts of your book that are supported by external sources, but there are many parts that are opposed, so your Bible is not wholly supported).  You say yourself scientists are making educated guesses.  An educated guess means that they are coming up with the best conclusion based on multiple sources of evidence.  You are coming up with one unwavering conclusion based on one piece of evidence.  Empirically, Scientists are more accurate.
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deftonesmx17

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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2005, 01:44:00 PM »

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 19 2005, 02:10 PM)
Empirically, Scientists are more accurate.

You continue to tell me I am lying, why? To attack me.
Did I ever say no preist has ever molested a woman? No I did not. You can argue all you want, but what I said was the truth. Most cases are because they believe it is not sex. You want proof, listen to some of the ones who are caught. Th at is what they say. Keep in mind, with your closed mind that I didnt say all. Also if I was making stuff up and so was the rest of the world, explain why that goes on mostly in the Catholic Church?
Open your eyes, in your scientific ways you still are trying to disprove the bible like I said they do in the first place. Here is a source for the dating of fossils and shows how they never line up. http://www.christian...g/aig-c007.html
QUOTE
Different Dating Techniques Should Consistently Agree
If the dating methods are an objective and reliable means of determining ages, they should agree. If a chemist were measuring the sugar content of blood, all valid methods for the determination would give the same answer (within the limits of experimental error). However, with radiometric dating, the different techniques often give quite different results.

Link for human bones and Dino bones together.
http://www.bible.ca/...lachite-man.htm
http://www.conroechu...Pic_MoabMan.htm

Here is some food for thought.
QUOTE
SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION IN THE BIBLE

       Here are nine passages in the Scriptures that describe what we call "scientific information". This "science" was written in God's Word over 2000 years ago, and only recently credited as a "scientific discovery" by a modern "scientist":

1. Job 38:31,32 Movement of the planets:

      About 100 years ago an astronomer named M. Medler discovered that Alcyone, the brightest star in the constellation Pleiades, is the gravitational center of the universe. In the discussion between God and Job in Job chapter 38, the Hebrew phrase "bind the sweet influences of Pleiades" in verse 31 is describing Pleiades as "binding" or "connecting" the heavens together by its gravitational "influence". Bob Thieme, in his book "Canonicity", says that the Hebrew word "kimah" meant "hinge", "pivot, or "axil"! Amazing, God named that spot in the universe and gave this information to Job over 3000 years before Medler the astronomer discovered it!

 2. Job 28:25 Air has weight:

       In Job 28:25, God says that He made a "weight" for the winds, or literally for the "moving air". Approximately 350 years ago, the scientist Galileo initiated the scientific concept that air had "weight". Today we know that the downward pressure of a one square inch column of air at sea level is 14.7 pounds. Notice also in Job 28:26 & 27 God told Job that He decreed in eternity past where and when rain would fall and lightning would strike! That is why our modern laws wisely call a lightning strike an "Act of God".

3. Static electricity

       Jer 10:13 states that God "causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightenings with rain". God is describing to Job that the condensation of water vapor causes static electricity. Scientists studying lightning discovered that this can be proven in the science laboratory.

4. Who thought the earth was flat?

       In Isa 40:22 the earth is said to be a "circle" in the KJV. The Hebrew word translated "circle" is "chug" meaning a SPHERE. "Chug" is translated "circle" here and "compass" in Prov 8:27, but means a sphere or ball. God's people since the time of Isaiah the prophet knew that the earth was a "sphere" or "ball" and not flat. The ancient people who thought the earth was flat either did not know, or did not believe the Old Testament Scriptures! Even our English word "atmosphere" means a "sphere" of "air"!

5. The Earth rotates on its axis

       In Luke 17:31-36, Jesus is describing the Second Advent at the end of the Great Tribulation, when He will return to earth to rule and reign over this earth for 1000 years, and He says both "in that day", and "in that night". He describes people involved in daytime and nighttime activity at the same point in time.  Jesus knew that the earth was a rotating sphere that has daylight on one side while it is night on the other side! He should know, He created it!

6. Quarantine for communicable diseases

       In Lev 13:45,46, God states that leprosy victims in the contagious stage must be quarantined. This reminds us that the Jews, as God's people, had medical, dietary, and civil laws long before the rest of the world.

 7. Telegraph

       In Job 38:35 God asked Job if he could send the lightning with a message and say "here we are". Amazing, God is describing messages transmitted by electricity. Man would not understand the significance of this discourse between God and Job until Alexander Graham Bell sent his first electrically transmitted message. Bell's first message, on March 10, 1876, was "Mr. Watson, come here; I want you". Do you remember from your history book what Bell's reaction was when Mr. Watson acknowledged that the first electrically transmitted message was successful? Bell said "What God hath wrought!"

8. Human physiology and the circulation of blood in the human body

       Long before Dr Harvey discovered the circulation of blood in our bodies, Solomon wrote about it in Eccl 12:6! Verses 3 - 7 are an amazing description of the physiology if the human aging process also. Especially amazing when we realize that it was written in God's Word over 2000 years ago! In verse 6, the "silver cord" is the spine, the "golden bowl" refers to the cranium, and the "pitcher, fountain, wheel and cistern" refer to the heart and circulatory system. Verse 3 describes the result of the aging process on the nervous system, back, teeth, and eyes. Verse 4 describes hearing loss and sleeplessness. Verse 5 describes fears in general, fear of heights, bitterness, loss of strength and motivation.

9. The earths fixed weather patterns

       In Eccl 1:5-7 Solomon describes the fixed circuits of the earths weather patterns and winds and the laws of evaporation and condensation of water long before it became "scientific knowledge". The rivers constantly run into the sea, but the sea does not get full. The waters return to the rivers (through evaporation, condensation and wind pattern and rain) and run into the seas again! Read the book of Ecclesiastes sometime. Solomon wrote the book of Ecclesiastes. The word "Ecclesiastes" basically means "Listen up, I have something to say!". He was the richest man the world has ever seen. He had it all, and if he heard about something new anywhere in the world, he sent for it, so he could have it too. In the end, he found that "things" could not make him really happy. In the last two verses, his conclusion is to fear God and keep His Word, and then we can enjoy "things".

QUOTE
NASA SCIENTISTS HELP TO PROVE THE BIBLE

       Before the first manned moon mission, I heard scientists on the radio and TV say that "if no evidence of life is found on the moon, science will have to go completely back to the drawing board in our study of the origin of the universe". But, the Lunar probes found no evidence of life on the moon, it was sterile. But, has science "gone back to the drawing board"? I don't think so.

       A discovery on the first moon mission PROVED, instead of disproved, God's Word. Dr. Henry Morris, a scientist who is a Bible believing Christian, said that scientists expected the moon to have about 22 feet of "moon dust" on its surface. Objects in space are said to attract cosmic "dust" at a rate determined by the density of their atmosphere and the "age" of the object. NASA scientists used a formula to determine the thickness of the moons dust, and they used so many "millions of years" for the age of the moon. If you remember, the Lunar Lander had huge flat feet, so it wouldn't sink into the "moon dust", and guess what, the feet went "clunk", in just a few inches of moon dust.

       Dr. Morris then used NASA's own formula and worked it BACKWARDS with the moon's correct "inches of dust", and solved for the moon's "AGE". The astonishing answer, using NASA's own formula, was that the moon is about 7000 years old!

God may have created the original earth millions of years ago, we don't know, BUT, God placed the moon in the sky on the FOURTH day of the RESTORATION, in Genesis 1:14-19. Adding up the Scripture genealogy from Adam to Jesus totals about 4000, and if we add our 2000 years from the birth of Christ, we are approximately 6000 years from Adam. NASA's formula, and the actual thickness of the moon dust proves that the Creation account in Genesis is LITERALLY CORRECT! Adam and Eve and our sun and moon were created approximately 6000 years ago! 
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pHeelixx

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2005, 02:13:00 PM »

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deftonesmx17

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2005, 03:12:00 PM »

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 17 2005, 03:13 AM)
One of my personal favorites is the topic of Muslims.  If i were to believe what i have heard from people, i would think that the Muslims are a bunch of satan worshipping baby eaters, who pray to satan and ritualistically sacrifice Christians.  This of course is not true, and i know this because every time a claim was made by a christian to me about the Muslim faith, i went and talked to many of my Muslim friends about the validity of said claim.


You seem to have no such desire for the truth. If you did, you would not ask your Muslim friends, but read the Koran for yourself. US Muslims claim that the word Islam stands for peace when it really stands for oppression as in to oppress others.

So they don't kill Christians and they are a peaceful religion, eh?

Koran verses, with my commentary

3:117 - "Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people."

I guess your Muslim friends are not friends or they are going against their own book.

4:101 - "The unbelievers are your inveterate foe."

Non-Muslims are their long lasting personal enemies.

5:17 - "Unbelievers are those who declare: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary."

Hmmm, I wonder who those poeple are george? rolleyes.gif

5:51 - "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another."

Well, I already knew who the Unbelievers are, but thanks for clarifying.

5:59 - "Say: 'People of the Book, is it not that you hate us only because we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was formerly revealed, and because most of you are evil-doers?' Say: 'Shall I tell you who will receive a worse reward from Allah? Those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He has been angry, transforming them into apes and swine, and those who serve the devil."

Can you guess who the "People of the Book" are?

5:72 - "Unbelievers are those that say:'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary."

Are you making sure I remember? You already told me.

5:73 - "Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is one of three."

I get the gist of it now, but thanks for that last reminder of who the Unbelievers are.

9:111 - "Allah has purchased from the faithful their lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for the cause of Allah, they will slay, and be slain."

Slay-To kill violently

9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

So......make war on anyone who does not believe in said religion.
Infidel-An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion

47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."

Sounds famliar doesnt it? I hope you have been paying attention to the war in the past few years.

48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

Ruthless-Having no compassion or pity, without mercy

49:15  "The true believers are those that have faith in Allah and His apostle, and never doubt; and who fight with their wealth and with their persons in the cause of Allah. Such are those whose faith is true."

God, I wish it was this easy.(yes, pun intended)


66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

Wow, just wow. Lost of making war on the "Unbelievers", and we know who they are right?
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deftonesmx17

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Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2005, 03:29:00 PM »

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Jul 19 2005, 05:14 PM)
I can't be bothered going through your various quotes but I will use the above as an example of the blind leading the blind, that is if you truley believe in these hocus pocus fairy tales.

If you know everything, by all means, guide me to the light, as I am blind. rolleyes.gif
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Arvarden

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« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2005, 04:24:00 PM »

biggrin.gif





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puckSR

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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2005, 04:30:00 PM »

Oh and to make things a little bit cleaner, could all future references please come from a validated source, I mean if you reference an experiment that shows something to be false, could you please find the original experiment, rather than an account of said experiment on a Christian website.

Thanks

btw the site you linked to did have a reference list at the end, so that would be acceptable, but try not to quote from the summary too much.
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