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pegasys

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2004, 09:55:00 PM »

First of all If you are going to have a debate about something don't just say "Bush rulz Kerry sux"  use your minds, post some facts and maybe throw in a constructive thought or 2.  And this ones for you cromat44 the media has blown up the whole flip-flopping thing, Kerry was given false facts by Bosh then made a descision based uppon those facts.  Those facts were found to be incorrect so Kerry changed his mind.  I'm begging you to say something that will make this bad other than just saying "Ummmm ah yes he flip-flopped."  Unprofesional, you seem like an intelligent person, I don't think Kerry changed his mind just to sway the public.  But even if he did that is not as bad as lieing and sending your country into war based on a lie it really isn't that bad.  Also Kerry does not flaunt his medals, the Bush campaign trys to discredit them thus bringing them into the lime light.  At least Kerry served instead of signing up just so it's on your record that you "sereved" like Bush did.  He didn't even show up half the time.  All of you I beg you don't vote Bush, people are losing their jobs and dieing needlessly, the world and country is in turmoil.  Maybe Kerry is not the best man to fix the situation, only time will tell, but Bush definatly is not.
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The unProfessional

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« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2004, 01:21:00 AM »

you do have a point, raptorbull... it is rather amazing.

pegasys: i believe many american's changed their minds once the facts became more "real".  Kerry is pegged as swaying on more than one occasion.

My worry is that we're SOL either way.
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BenJeremy

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« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2004, 05:00:00 AM »

QUOTE (pegasys @ Aug 24 2004, 12:30 PM)
At least kerry admits when he's wrong, he would say "oh know intelligence says that iraq is a threat to us, lets attack them.  Oh shit we were lied to and they were not a threat thats not good maybe the war was a bad idea."  some would call this flip-floping, I callit intelligent and logical.  Bush would say, "I really wanna attack iraq, lets tell everyone they are a threat then attack them.  Oh shit they found out we lied to them.  Instead of admitting that the war in iraq was wrong lets keep saying it's a good war and make up excuses as to why we should have attak regardless of the fact that  the whole premis for the war on iraq is a lie."  Some would call this sticking to his ideals , I call it a crime, because lossing american and innocent iraqi lives because you are too fucking stubborn to admit you are wrong is fucking murder.  For example, I used to like ps2 and thought it was a more powerful system than xbox, but then I learned the facts and decided that xbox is more powerful.  Thats the same "flip-flops" that Kerry did and the is nothing wrong with that.  Tell me have you never changed your opinion on something.  If "good" leaders didn't change their minds than there would still be slavery, segragation.  The onlt people that I have heard of that never change their opinions are members of the KKK.  Is that the kind of president that you want? (I'm not saying that Bush is a member of the KKK, I'm just illistrating how changing your opinion is not a bad thing.)

:::sigh:::

Bush, nor the CIA "Lied" - Bush acted on intelligence he believed to be true, as did the CIA in general (the conclusions based in large part on Joe Wilson (a democratic Kerry supporter) and his wife's reports on sales of yellowcake (that's Uranium ore) to Iraq, which last time I heard were actually TRUE, even though Wilson recanted later.

Secondly, Kerry stated that even without the WMD threat, he would still have voted to give the President authorization for using whatever force/action was needed to police Iraq.


Why do anti-Bush people insist on perpetuating their own set of lies in this? It serveds no purpose, and makes them look like total asses to those who actually read the news and keep up on the facts.

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67thRaptorBull

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2004, 07:28:00 AM »

QUOTE (cromat44 @ Aug 24 2004, 11:20 PM)
if you think my statements were serious then you are the person that doesn't understand what you're talking about, not me.....


kerry is known for flip flopping, i was mocking that in my first post.... in my second post i was mocking pegasys....

then why post in a political thread if all your going to do is make retarded statements, when you know yourself what your saying is retarded?



and for evreyone else

it doesnt matter if bush acted on bad intel, thats in the past

whats at focus here is that bush would still (according to his own words) attack iraq even if he knew they didnt have WMD's

but kerry on the other hand said he still take action against iraq, but what people dont understand is he means any action, ie, UN, inspectors, etc, kerry isnt limiting himself to saying flat out hed attack them militarilly

whats relevant here is bush, being the idiot he is, is basically saying hed sacrafice american lives for nothing, while kerry on the other hand has played a trump card, saying force isnt out of the question, but other, peaceful options are still up for using


anyone follow yet?
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pegasys

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« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2004, 08:15:00 AM »

BenJeremy: Kerry said that he would do something "take action" not attack and when it's not working keep doing it so he could appear steadfast(cough... Bush).  Anyone can make a desicion, and stick to it, we need someone who can make the right descision.  

For those of you who say that Kerry supporters perpetuate their own lies, thats not true.  Maybe Bush didn't "lie", just whenever some intelegence pointed to a nation other that iraq being resposible or having a hand in 9/11, all Bush said was no we need to find out about iraq, Iraq did it.  At this point I realize that when we have arguments about iraq and Kerry vs. Bush war record, we are playing right into the Bush supporters hands.  We need to talk about how Kerry will pull the econamy out of the economic slump that we are in, generate more jobs, and provide healthcare for more people.  We need someone to fix the problems that Bush caused.  When the republicans say that Kerry wantys to raise taxes, you think, "oh thats no good", but in reality he is going to stop giving tax breaks to the rich. If you collect less money and spend more, it dosn't work, with Bush we ARE GOING TO RUN OUT OF MONEY.  For the good of america and for our troops in the middle east we must vote Kerry.  And for those of you wo think that i'm just some liberal, I voted for Bush.  I have realized that that is a mistake, now I will vote for Kerry.  I have flipflopped, and I am proud.
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pug_ster

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2004, 09:42:00 AM »

QUOTE (pegasys @ Aug 25 2004, 05:58 AM)
First of all If you are going to have a debate about something don't just say "Bush rulz Kerry sux"  use your minds, post some facts and maybe throw in a constructive thought or 2.  And this ones for you cromat44 the media has blown up the whole flip-flopping thing, Kerry was given false facts by Bosh then made a descision based uppon those facts.  Those facts were found to be incorrect so Kerry changed his mind.  I'm begging you to say something that will make this bad other than just saying "Ummmm ah yes he flip-flopped."  Unprofesional, you seem like an intelligent person, I don't think Kerry changed his mind just to sway the public.  But even if he did that is not as bad as lieing and sending your country into war based on a lie it really isn't that bad.  Also Kerry does not flaunt his medals, the Bush campaign trys to discredit them thus bringing them into the lime light.  At least Kerry served instead of signing up just so it's on your record that you "sereved" like Bush did.  He didn't even show up half the time.  All of you I beg you don't vote Bush, people are losing their jobs and dieing needlessly, the world and country is in turmoil.  Maybe Kerry is not the best man to fix the situation, only time will tell, but Bush definatly is not.

It is unfortunate today that all you see in the news was that about Kerry 'flip flopping' and the Vietnam war metal issue.  This is really a smokescreen over issues that we really care about.  You don't see much news about Kerry or Edwards (or Bush for that matter) campaining about issues that we really care about.  The only time you see that is the ads that they put money in.
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67thRaptorBull

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2004, 09:53:00 AM »

QUOTE (pug_ster @ Aug 25 2004, 11:45 AM)
It is unfortunate today that all you see in the news was that about Kerry 'flip flopping' and the Vietnam war metal issue.  This is really a smokescreen over issues that we really care about.  You don't see much news about Kerry or Edwards campaining about issues that we really care about.  The only time you see that is the ads that they put money in.

yea, ive been noticing that more and more


on another issue

anyone see dick cheneys stance on gay marriage last night, he thinks its ok and it should be allowed

thats gonna fuck up bush's campaign a little



*for those of you that dont know, cheney has a gay daughter, who he openly supports now
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pug_ster

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2004, 10:17:00 AM »

QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Aug 25 2004, 01:03 PM)
:::sigh:::

Bush, nor the CIA "Lied" - Bush acted on intelligence he believed to be true, as did the CIA in general (the conclusions based in large part on Joe Wilson (a democratic Kerry supporter) and his wife's reports on sales of yellowcake (that's Uranium ore) to Iraq, which last time I heard were actually TRUE, even though Wilson recanted later.

Secondly, Kerry stated that even without the WMD threat, he would still have voted to give the President authorization for using whatever force/action was needed to police Iraq.


Why do anti-Bush people insist on perpetuating their own set of lies in this? It serveds no purpose, and makes them look like total asses to those who actually read the news and keep up on the facts.

I don't know where you get that information from about Joe Wilson.

http://www.cbsnews.c...ain636473.shtml

Maybe it is more clearer once you have read this.

You know, at that time when the Whitehouse presented those 'facts' about the so called 'imminent' threat from Iraq early last year, a lot of gullable people believed it, including myself and probably Kerry.  Unfortunately, we, including Kerry, are blindsided about this news so we don't believe in the contrary.  Kerry would've probably had to say 'yes' to the war because if he wouldve say 'no' people look at him as being incompetent.

With this news as well as other kind of 'news' that the Bush administration spoon fed us.  More and more people are sick of Bush administration's 'crying wolf' so that we can rally in his cause.

Propaganda is a very strong tool to persuade or dissaude people.  In the past 4 years I see more of that stuff even the News channels are being fed with.
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BenJeremy

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2004, 11:58:00 AM »

QUOTE (pegasys @ Aug 25 2004, 11:18 AM)
BenJeremy: Kerry said that he would do something "take action" not attack and when it's not working keep doing it so he could appear steadfast(cough... Bush).  Anyone can make a desicion, and stick to it, we need someone who can make the right descision.  

For those of you who say that Kerry supporters perpetuate their own lies, thats not true.  Maybe Bush didn't "lie", just whenever some intelegence pointed to a nation other that iraq being resposible or having a hand in 9/11, all Bush said was no we need to find out about iraq, Iraq did it.  At this point I realize that when we have arguments about iraq and Kerry vs. Bush war record, we are playing right into the Bush supporters hands.  We need to talk about how Kerry will pull the econamy out of the economic slump that we are in, generate more jobs, and provide healthcare for more people.  We need someone to fix the problems that Bush caused.  When the republicans say that Kerry wantys to raise taxes, you think, "oh thats no good", but in reality he is going to stop giving tax breaks to the rich. If you collect less money and spend more, it dosn't work, with Bush we ARE GOING TO RUN OUT OF MONEY.  For the good of america and for our troops in the middle east we must vote Kerry.  And for those of you wo think that i'm just some liberal, I voted for Bush.  I have realized that that is a mistake, now I will vote for Kerry.  I have flipflopped, and I am proud.

:::shakes head at people with blinders on:::

Kerry stated he would have voted to give Bush the authority to take action, regardless of WMD evidence presented. He believed that the President has the perogative to use force, if needed, in such affairs. In that, he is not entirely correct, either - that's why it's up to a vote in the first place.

Beyond that, we do NOT know what action he would take, though keep in mind, under Clinton, he favored ALL military action taken against Saddam.

As for 9/11, it's another myth that Bush blamed the whole thing on Saddam. It's also still not proven, one way or another, whether he had involvement. There are actually some compelling, though tenuous bits of evidence that he did indeed have something to do with it, starting with potential sleeper agents planted in Kuwait in 1991 (several hijackers and other al qaida agents have history back to Kuwait, after the country was liberated, but NO TRACE of existence before then.) as well as meetings between Iraqi officials and known al qaida operatives in Europe. For all that's said about the differences between the Baathists and al qaida, they had a common enemy (the West), and as the saying goes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - the two had plenty enough common "cause" to put aside those differences.

My point isn't to make the case they were working together - only that the possibility has NOT been disproven and there are still too many unanswered questions to make that statement.

Likewise, it's a terribly flawed logic to also state Saddam had no WMDs. We do know several things:

1. Saddam DID attempt to buy yellowcake from agents in Africa. Joe Wilson and his wife provided some evidence of this, though they've switched stories several times - but other witnesses have verified this as fact; and Wilson is anti-Bush, so his obvious flip-flops on the facts underscore his lack of credibility at this time.

2. Saddam's reluctance to allow inspectors free access. It still boggles the mind. Without WMDs, the only possible explaination is that Saddam THOUGHT he had WMDs, but was lied to by his advisors. The other reason, well.....

3. Various stockpiles of chemical artillery shells found around Iraq. Mostly these are discounted as old, aging relics of the 80's war with Iran, except two things bother me about it.... a) they were supposed to be destroyed, in accordance with UN resolutions after Desert Storm and cool.gif Some of the shells found could NOT have been that old, based on the agents involved. I can see several reasons for the US to hide the true facts here, but I feel the greater good would have been served to reveal it here. Obviously, the hunt is on for the remainder of these weapons, hence the downplay of these WMDs found as "old relics"

4. Roach coaches or biolabs? We all saw the discovery of these, revealed embarrassingly on network news.... pooh-poohed by Blix as nothing more than roach coaches, though no food preperation appliances or whatnot was found, only ammonia and bleached -wiped surfaces hidden behind secret panels. The set up was ideal for a bio lab, not a rolling meal wagon. What happened to the contents? I'm sure that question is a scary one to intelligence - perhaps one bad enough to bury the discovery of these trucks? Nobody in the military has ever fully dismissed these trucks, either, to my knowledge - just ignored the situation until nobody asked about it anymore.

5. Buried treasures.... Saddam buried whole aircraft in the desert (quite a big desert, by the way), as well as missiles (under 6 yards of concrete, no less). He had bunkers 10 stories deep. We have still not located all of his caches and hiding spots. Advanced missile systems he was NOT supposed to have have been found in shipments of scrap metal sent out of Iraq as the US beat the war drums.

6. The curious rotation of border guards. The Baathists had an odd habit of occasionally, for a day or two at a time, replacing border guards along the Iraqi-Syria border with members of Saddam's personal guard. The only obvious reason is so material and people could be moved across the border. What kind of material might we be talking about, anyway? This happened much more frequently as the impending invasion neared.


Taken separately, I suppose "somewhat" plausable excuses could be made, but together? It's clear Saddam thought he had WMDs; the reality/fact of this is still in question, as his advisors might merely have been milking him for years.

Is the world safer with Saddam gone? Hell yes. The spasms of Islamists fighting the introduction of tolerance and democracy should be seen for what they are - the dying gasps and desparate grabs for power by criminal and radical elements alike. With all of the attention on "ousting" the infidels, there is nobody to sponsor training, financing and arming of terrorists, at least in Iraq. Iran is spending all of it's energy in two efforts: building a nuclear weapons program and supporting the Shiite insurgency in Iraq; Many Iraqis see Iran's role for what it is, by the way. We'll surely have to deal with Iran's nukes soon enough, as the UN Muslim nuke authority continues to dither and buy time for Iran - but it will happen.

Syria is also laying in wait for some serious attention, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn we've got a serious build-up of intelligence assets in country now; revealing "official" knowledge of WMD transfers to the Baaka Valley would likely jeopardize those efforts - meanwhile, Syria won't move a damn thing, for fear of being revealed themselves. In effect, their role as sponsors of global terrorism is limited, at best.

North Korea? They no longer have Libya and Iraq buying arms from them. Iran, yes, but for how much longer? China won't support any aggressive acts, nor their nuclear ambitions, so it boils down to attrition. Frankly, how much longer can they hold out without any new cash to feed and pay their army? It sounds cruel, as the waiting game will cause millions of North Koreans to starve to death, but it's Kim's choice, ultimately, unless we choose direct confrontation.


Iraq presented several tough problems from a sanctions standpoint. It's clear France, Germany and Russia illegally used the food-for-oil program to get oil from Iraq and it resulted in BILLIONS in profit (perhaps more so that WITHOUT the so-called UN sanctions) with the Iraqi people paying the price as Saddam luxuriated in his palaces and his sons raped and tortured the population. Food-for-oil officials also illegally raked in millions in bribes and incentives to look the other way as these activities went on. There was no way the West could "wait Saddam out". Meanwhile, Saddam was paying families of Palestinian suicide bombers as direct financial support of terrorist acts. Oh, and as a minor issue, he was thumbing his nose at the U.S. the whole time.... while it rankled, it could easily be forgotten (as in the case of Kim or Khamanei) except for the other little items in the Iraqi portfolio.

I'm not a big fan of some of Bush's policies, but even those I'm not fond of, he's managed to distance himself from taking action on (these being personal liberty issues). For those imprtant things, like the war on terrorism, he presents a far more attractive and focused leader on the matter than Kerry ever will. The worst thing I can say about Bush is the ever-growing deficit, but there are several factors (including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the recession that began before he took office) which make arguing the fiscal situation moot at this point.

What should disturb you is what Kerry WOULD ACTUALLY DO, since it's clear what he says, and what he does are often different things. He's a war protestor who stands behind his "glorious war hero service" as evidence of his ability to act as commander in chief, yet even now, after evidence continues to mount, he admits his first purple heart resulted from self-inflicted wounds, and he was not under enemy fire at the time. He's a priviledged person™ with homes all over the world, able to do things on a whim you or I have to spend years planning and saving for. On Sunday afternoons, he's having wine and cheese socials arguing the finer points of a Manet he just bought, while "Dubya" is kicking back having a barbeque with his Texas neighbors, enjoying a football game. I know who I have more in common with....

Kerry's chief supporters are billionaires and millionaires - people who've NEVER had to worry about overdrafts and making a rent payment. They are people who have stated, time and time again (Hillary most recently stated it) "we will take your money and spend it for the good of the people" - Hmmm.... the good of MY people is what's best for my family, not what some stuck up socialite thinks my money should be spent on (like needles for heroin addicts or welfare checks). They've spent MILLIONS on "527" organizations like MoveOn.org, which exists solely to ATTACK Bush and have direct ties to the DNC and Kerry campaign, in violation of FEC regulations. They have stated, quite bluntly and openly that THEY know what's good for us, and they'll shove it down our throats for "our own good" whether we like it or not.

Kerry's people will not suffer $3-4/gallon gas prices.

Kerry's people will not be forced to use interest-only payment home loans.

Kerry's people will not be forced to debate bankruptcy proceedings to keep a roof over their family's heads.

Kerry's people will not ever contemplate the need to get food stamps to feed their children.

The more I am forced to rebut the anti-Bush crowd, the better I feel about voting for Bush in this coming election. As a veteran, and as somebody who knows many honorable Vietnam vets, I find Kerry more descpicable every day the election creeps closer. His own words and actions taint him and demonstrate his absolute inability to lead our nation as Chief Executive. Kerry's certainly proven himself as an excellent gigilo, servicing rich women. He's also great at delivering speeches, no matter what the facts really are. Realistically, though, the only reason most of his potential voters support him is becuase he's not Bush, and that's simply idiotic.


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pug_ster

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« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2004, 02:11:00 PM »

QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Aug 25 2004, 08:01 PM)
:::shakes head at people with blinders on:::

5. Buried treasures.... Saddam buried whole aircraft in the desert (quite a big desert, by the way), as well as missiles (under 6 yards of concrete, no less). He had bunkers 10 stories deep. We have still not located all of his caches and hiding spots. Advanced missile systems he was NOT supposed to have have been found in shipments of scrap metal sent out of Iraq as the US beat the war drums.
Taken separately, I suppose "somewhat" plausable excuses could be made, but together? It's clear Saddam thought he had WMDs; the reality/fact of this is still in question, as his advisors might merely have been milking him for years.

Is the world safer with Saddam gone? Hell yes. The spasms of Islamists fighting the introduction of tolerance and democracy should be seen for what they are - the dying gasps and desparate grabs for power by criminal and radical elements alike. With all of the attention on "ousting" the infidels, there is nobody to sponsor training, financing and arming of terrorists, at least in Iraq. Iran is spending all of it's energy in two efforts: building a nuclear weapons program and supporting the Shiite insurgency in Iraq; Many Iraqis see Iran's role for what it is, by the way. We'll surely have to deal with Iran's nukes soon enough, as the UN Muslim nuke authority continues to dither and buy time for Iran - but it will happen.

What should disturb you is what Kerry WOULD ACTUALLY DO, since it's clear what he says, and what he does are often different things. He's a war protestor who stands behind his "glorious war hero service" as evidence of his ability to act as commander in chief, yet even now, after evidence continues to mount, he admits his first purple heart resulted from self-inflicted wounds, and he was not under enemy fire at the time. He's a priviledged person™ with homes all over the world, able to do things on a whim you or I have to spend years planning and saving for. On Sunday afternoons, he's having wine and cheese socials arguing the finer points of a Manet he just bought, while "Dubya" is kicking back having a barbeque with his Texas neighbors, enjoying a football game. I know who I have more in common with....

Kerry's chief supporters are billionaires and millionaires - people who've NEVER had to worry about overdrafts and making a rent payment. They are people who have stated, time and time again (Hillary most recently stated it) "we will take your money and spend it for the good of the people" - Hmmm.... the good of MY people is what's best for my family, not what some stuck up socialite thinks my money should be spent on (like needles for heroin addicts or welfare checks). They've spent MILLIONS on "527" organizations like MoveOn.org, which exists solely to ATTACK Bush and have direct ties to the DNC and Kerry campaign, in violation of FEC regulations. They have stated, quite bluntly and openly that THEY know what's good for us, and they'll shove it down our throats for "our own good" whether we like it or not.

Kerry's people will not suffer $3-4/gallon gas prices.

Kerry's people will not be forced to use interest-only payment home loans.

Kerry's people will not be forced to debate bankruptcy proceedings to keep a roof over their family's heads.

Kerry's people will not ever contemplate the need to get food stamps to feed their children.

The more I am forced to rebut the anti-Bush crowd, the better I feel about voting for Bush in this coming election. As a veteran, and as somebody who knows many honorable Vietnam vets, I find Kerry more descpicable every day the election creeps closer. His own words and actions taint him and demonstrate his absolute inability to lead our nation as Chief Executive. Kerry's certainly proven himself as an excellent gigilo, servicing rich women. He's also great at delivering speeches, no matter what the facts really are. Realistically, though, the only reason most of his potential voters support him is becuase he's not Bush, and that's simply idiotic.

- Well, I took out a bunch of stuff but it seems to be pretty detailed...

- 'Buried Treasures' - There's no proof that WMD exists.  All those pictures are superficial because they can't prove that it exists.  Most of the chemical weapons used during the early 1990's have a shelf life of a few months.   You remember that the UN was going to inspect all those sites but Bush had an itchy trigger finger.  The Bush's administration convienced us that based on satelite pictures (where's no proof that it is a WMD factory) and paid iraql defectors claimed that saw those wmd's.  

- Is it good that Saddam gone?  Yes.  One thing about Saddam was that Iraq never press his business outside the middle east.  If I remember correctly, Hussein and Al Quada are enemies so you never have seen them operate openly except for North Iraq because Hussein don't have much control there.  But now the Iraqi regieme was replaced by a bunch of pissed off Muslum Jihadists who is willing to die like cannon fodders just to kill one of us.  So do you think we are safer than 4 years ago?  Hell no.

- Talking about terrorists.  I mean that 4 years ago we never thought terrorists being here in the US.  Now we are being inunidated about when are we going to be attacked by terrorists.  I rather have a president who tries to get us out of the mess in Iraq than someone who more likely to drag us to WWIII by attacking the rest of the middle east and North Korea.

- I mean why don't the Bush administration go after moveon.org and say that they are lying like those Swiftboat veterians for lies?  Maybe there's some truth in what moveon.org has to say and the Bush administration can't disprove it...

About what negative things about what Kerry do to gas, home mortgage, etc... What proof do you have that is going to happen?  You are probably right about the $3-4 on the gas though regardless who is president because the fisaco with Iraq will cause the oil price to jump.

You are right about people will vote anybody but Bush.  If he didn't screw up for the last 3.5 years in terms of every aspect of his presidency.  In fact, I would've probably voted for Bush if he did for what half of what Reagan or Clinton would've done.  Call me idiotic, but this current president more worse than Carter and Bush Sr.
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BenJeremy

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« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2004, 03:39:00 PM »

QUOTE (pug_ster @ Aug 25 2004, 05:14 PM)
- Well, I took out a bunch of stuff but it seems to be pretty detailed...


QUOTE


- 'Buried Treasures' - There's no proof that WMD exists.  All those pictures are superficial because they can't prove that it exists.  Most of the chemical weapons used during the early 1990's have a shelf life of a few months.   You remember that the UN was going to inspect all those sites but Bush had an itchy trigger finger.  The Bush's administration convienced us that based on satelite pictures (where's no proof that it is a WMD factory) and paid iraql defectors claimed that saw those wmd's. 


Um, what? Your "shelf life" statement actually supports the idea that Saddam had fresh chemical weapons - many chemical artillary shells have been found in Iraq, some definitely 80s' era, but several of them could only have been made recently, at the earliest, 1998 or so. I guess having actual chemical weapons in hand, courtesy of Baathist loyalists is not proof?


QUOTE


- Is it good that Saddam gone?  Yes.  One thing about Saddam was that Iraq never press his business outside the middle east.  If I remember correctly, Hussein and Al Quada are enemies so you never have seen them operate openly except for North Iraq because Hussein don't have much control there.  But now the Iraqi regieme was replaced by a bunch of pissed off Muslum Jihadists who is willing to die like cannon fodders just to kill one of us.  So do you think we are safer than 4 years ago?  Hell no.



Well, you swallowed the blurry media image of Iraq and al qaida's relationship hook-line-and-sinker. They share one common, most hated enemy: the west. Did they work together? There's plenty of evidence Saddam often hosted Taliban and al qaida operatives in Iraq, and we KNOW Iraqi officials made contact with several conspirators of  9/11, according to Interpol and German police.

QUOTE


- Talking about terrorists.  I mean that 4 years ago we never thought terrorists being here in the US.  Now we are being inunidated about when are we going to be attacked by terrorists.  I rather have a president who tries to get us out of the mess in Iraq than someone who more likely to drag us to WWIII by attacking the rest of the middle east and North Korea.


Well, I would say getting warned, versus getting KILLED is a good thing, eh? What happened to the follow-up attacks? None, you say? Perhaps, maybe, you might consider that President Bush's administration might deserve a bit of CREDIT for the LACK of terrorist attacks here in the US and on American interests overseas, even amid the countless threats and deadlines given by terrorist groups?

A true idiot would discount this, of course, as proof Bush and his people are getting the job done....

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- I mean why don't the Bush administration go after moveon.org and say that they are lying like those Swiftboat veterians for lies?  Maybe there's some truth in what moveon.org has to say and the Bush administration can't disprove it...


Actually, Bush has asked the Swiftboat vets to stop the attack ads, and he also called on MoveOn and others to stop as well. Suffice it to say, Kerry won't call off the MoveOn attack dogs, and he continues to ignore the fact that Bush did exactly what the DNC asked him to do. I guess you repeat a lie enough times (in this case, "Bush should call off the attacks", when he already has) and it just becomes true, eh?

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About what negative things about what Kerry do to gas, home mortgage, etc... What proof do you have that is going to happen?  You are probably right about the $3-4 on the gas though regardless who is president because the fisaco with Iraq will cause the oil price to jump.


Not really. The Saudis won't price gouging happen, and as it is, the jumpiness is in SPECULATION, not because of ANY REAL threat to the supply. Even with the attacks on the pipelines and refineries, production and shipment continues at nominal levels in Iraq. The Saudis agree that oil is far to expensive for the current supply and demand, and will increase production even more (why not?)

Things will most certainly calm down. How many people do you honestly think are taking up arms against the new Iraqi government and the coalition forces there? I'll tell you, it's not more than a thousand or two. Attacks in Bagdhad havedropped off dramatically, and Najaf is in it's last legs. The only thing those Shiite thugs have going for them is that coalition and Iraqi forces are hesitant to damage the Shrine (Ali's tomb).

The region is far less of a tinderbox than it was 4 years ago.


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You are right about people will vote anybody but Bush.  If he didn't screw up for the last 3.5 years in terms of every aspect of his presidency.  In fact, I would've probably voted for Bush if he did for what half of what Reagan or Clinton would've done.  Call me idiotic, but this current president more worse than Carter and Bush Sr.


Wow.... nobody was worse than Carter - he gave away too much (Panama turned into the Noriega fiasco), supported Saddam AND Bin Laden and didn't act to prevent Islamists from taking over Iran. Much of the current problems can be traced to HIS failed diplomacy.

As for Bush's failing, what, exactly are they? I pay less in taxes, inflation remains low, as do interest rates. The recession is recovering, rather than plunging further, and unemployment rates remain about the same level as averaged under Clinton's term. All that in the face of the dstruction of the World Trade Center, causing trillions of dollars in fallout/damage to the world and American economies.

I feel safe flying (Indeed, took my family flying across country two weeks after 9/11), and I've NEVER had my personal liberties intruded upon (other than a shoe search at the airport, once - big deal!).

My family is better off today than 4 years ago, my son's schools are great, and Bush has increased VA budgets at TWICE the levels Clinton managed in his 8 years.


I really don't know where Bush has failed anything.... but the media has, time and time again, in their attempts to assassinate him by character.

As for our image to the rest of the world, I'd ratehr be a proud American than a cowed earthling. Europe has been jonesing for ages to get it's lick in on America - and Americans should study history and understand that we've been fighting for our liberty since 1776, it's never stopped. Some people forget that, it seems.

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67thRaptorBull

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2004, 03:53:00 PM »

QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Aug 25 2004, 02:01 PM)
:::shakes head at people with blinders on:::

Kerry stated he would have voted to give Bush the authority to take action, regardless of WMD evidence presented. He believed that the President has the perogative to use force, if needed, in such affairs. In that, he is not entirely correct, either - that's why it's up to a vote in the first place.

Beyond that, we do NOT know what action he would take, though keep in mind, under Clinton, he favored ALL military action taken against Saddam.

As for 9/11, it's another myth that Bush blamed the whole thing on Saddam. It's also still not proven, one way or another, whether he had involvement. There are actually some compelling, though tenuous bits of evidence that he did indeed have something to do with it, starting with potential sleeper agents planted in Kuwait in 1991 (several hijackers and other al qaida agents have history back to Kuwait, after the country was liberated, but NO TRACE of existence before then.) as well as meetings between Iraqi officials and known al qaida operatives in Europe. For all that's said about the differences between the Baathists and al qaida, they had a common enemy (the West), and as the saying goes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - the two had plenty enough common "cause" to put aside those differences.

My point isn't to make the case they were working together - only that the possibility has NOT been disproven and there are still too many unanswered questions to make that statement.

Likewise, it's a terribly flawed logic to also state Saddam had no WMDs. We do know several things:

1. Saddam DID attempt to buy yellowcake from agents in Africa. Joe Wilson and his wife provided some evidence of this, though they've switched stories several times - but other witnesses have verified this as fact; and Wilson is anti-Bush, so his obvious flip-flops on the facts underscore his lack of credibility at this time.

2. Saddam's reluctance to allow inspectors free access. It still boggles the mind. Without WMDs, the only possible explaination is that Saddam THOUGHT he had WMDs, but was lied to by his advisors. The other reason, well.....

3. Various stockpiles of chemical artillery shells found around Iraq. Mostly these are discounted as old, aging relics of the 80's war with Iran, except two things bother me about it.... a) they were supposed to be destroyed, in accordance with UN resolutions after Desert Storm and cool.gif Some of the shells found could NOT have been that old, based on the agents involved. I can see several reasons for the US to hide the true facts here, but I feel the greater good would have been served to reveal it here. Obviously, the hunt is on for the remainder of these weapons, hence the downplay of these WMDs found as "old relics"

4. Roach coaches or biolabs? We all saw the discovery of these, revealed embarrassingly on network news.... pooh-poohed by Blix as nothing more than roach coaches, though no food preperation appliances or whatnot was found, only ammonia and bleached -wiped surfaces hidden behind secret panels. The set up was ideal for a bio lab, not a rolling meal wagon. What happened to the contents? I'm sure that question is a scary one to intelligence - perhaps one bad enough to bury the discovery of these trucks? Nobody in the military has ever fully dismissed these trucks, either, to my knowledge - just ignored the situation until nobody asked about it anymore.

5. Buried treasures.... Saddam buried whole aircraft in the desert (quite a big desert, by the way), as well as missiles (under 6 yards of concrete, no less). He had bunkers 10 stories deep. We have still not located all of his caches and hiding spots. Advanced missile systems he was NOT supposed to have have been found in shipments of scrap metal sent out of Iraq as the US beat the war drums.

6. The curious rotation of border guards. The Baathists had an odd habit of occasionally, for a day or two at a time, replacing border guards along the Iraqi-Syria border with members of Saddam's personal guard. The only obvious reason is so material and people could be moved across the border. What kind of material might we be talking about, anyway? This happened much more frequently as the impending invasion neared.


Taken separately, I suppose "somewhat" plausable excuses could be made, but together? It's clear Saddam thought he had WMDs; the reality/fact of this is still in question, as his advisors might merely have been milking him for years.

Is the world safer with Saddam gone? Hell yes. The spasms of Islamists fighting the introduction of tolerance and democracy should be seen for what they are - the dying gasps and desparate grabs for power by criminal and radical elements alike. With all of the attention on "ousting" the infidels, there is nobody to sponsor training, financing and arming of terrorists, at least in Iraq. Iran is spending all of it's energy in two efforts: building a nuclear weapons program and supporting the Shiite insurgency in Iraq; Many Iraqis see Iran's role for what it is, by the way. We'll surely have to deal with Iran's nukes soon enough, as the UN Muslim nuke authority continues to dither and buy time for Iran - but it will happen.

Syria is also laying in wait for some serious attention, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn we've got a serious build-up of intelligence assets in country now; revealing "official" knowledge of WMD transfers to the Baaka Valley would likely jeopardize those efforts - meanwhile, Syria won't move a damn thing, for fear of being revealed themselves. In effect, their role as sponsors of global terrorism is limited, at best.

North Korea? They no longer have Libya and Iraq buying arms from them. Iran, yes, but for how much longer? China won't support any aggressive acts, nor their nuclear ambitions, so it boils down to attrition. Frankly, how much longer can they hold out without any new cash to feed and pay their army? It sounds cruel, as the waiting game will cause millions of North Koreans to starve to death, but it's Kim's choice, ultimately, unless we choose direct confrontation.


Iraq presented several tough problems from a sanctions standpoint. It's clear France, Germany and Russia illegally used the food-for-oil program to get oil from Iraq and it resulted in BILLIONS in profit (perhaps more so that WITHOUT the so-called UN sanctions) with the Iraqi people paying the price as Saddam luxuriated in his palaces and his sons raped and tortured the population. Food-for-oil officials also illegally raked in millions in bribes and incentives to look the other way as these activities went on. There was no way the West could "wait Saddam out". Meanwhile, Saddam was paying families of Palestinian suicide bombers as direct financial support of terrorist acts. Oh, and as a minor issue, he was thumbing his nose at the U.S. the whole time.... while it rankled, it could easily be forgotten (as in the case of Kim or Khamanei) except for the other little items in the Iraqi portfolio.

I'm not a big fan of some of Bush's policies, but even those I'm not fond of, he's managed to distance himself from taking action on (these being personal liberty issues). For those imprtant things, like the war on terrorism, he presents a far more attractive and focused leader on the matter than Kerry ever will. The worst thing I can say about Bush is the ever-growing deficit, but there are several factors (including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the recession that began before he took office) which make arguing the fiscal situation moot at this point.

What should disturb you is what Kerry WOULD ACTUALLY DO, since it's clear what he says, and what he does are often different things. He's a war protestor who stands behind his "glorious war hero service" as evidence of his ability to act as commander in chief, yet even now, after evidence continues to mount, he admits his first purple heart resulted from self-inflicted wounds, and he was not under enemy fire at the time. He's a priviledged person™ with homes all over the world, able to do things on a whim you or I have to spend years planning and saving for. On Sunday afternoons, he's having wine and cheese socials arguing the finer points of a Manet he just bought, while "Dubya" is kicking back having a barbeque with his Texas neighbors, enjoying a football game. I know who I have more in common with....

Kerry's chief supporters are billionaires and millionaires - people who've NEVER had to worry about overdrafts and making a rent payment. They are people who have stated, time and time again (Hillary most recently stated it) "we will take your money and spend it for the good of the people" - Hmmm.... the good of MY people is what's best for my family, not what some stuck up socialite thinks my money should be spent on (like needles for heroin addicts or welfare checks). They've spent MILLIONS on "527" organizations like MoveOn.org, which exists solely to ATTACK Bush and have direct ties to the DNC and Kerry campaign, in violation of FEC regulations. They have stated, quite bluntly and openly that THEY know what's good for us, and they'll shove it down our throats for "our own good" whether we like it or not.

Kerry's people will not suffer $3-4/gallon gas prices.

Kerry's people will not be forced to use interest-only payment home loans.

Kerry's people will not be forced to debate bankruptcy proceedings to keep a roof over their family's heads.

Kerry's people will not ever contemplate the need to get food stamps to feed their children.

The more I am forced to rebut the anti-Bush crowd, the better I feel about voting for Bush in this coming election. As a veteran, and as somebody who knows many honorable Vietnam vets, I find Kerry more descpicable every day the election creeps closer. His own words and actions taint him and demonstrate his absolute inability to lead our nation as Chief Executive. Kerry's certainly proven himself as an excellent gigilo, servicing rich women. He's also great at delivering speeches, no matter what the facts really are. Realistically, though, the only reason most of his potential voters support him is becuase he's not Bush, and that's simply idiotic.

you must have blinders on too..........

any post with the referrel to the "yellowcake" points to someone that themselves have little idea what they are saying
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thomes08

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2004, 04:47:00 PM »

i have a question for some people

say we knew for a fact saddam had those weapons...

Why is it OK for Bush to break treaties that he supported because saddam broke some rules?

HOLY SHIT HE FLIP-FLOPPED!

thomes08

P.S.  i haven't been here in a few days and i want to give credit to 67, pug, pegasys, and even thoughi  don't agree with him BJ for actually have some intelligent posts.  Unlike ones posted from mick garvy and theorkanman... christ glad they're not ehre anymore, even though i think they were the same lam person
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BenJeremy

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2004, 05:56:00 PM »

QUOTE (67thRaptorBull @ Aug 25 2004, 06:56 PM)
you must have blinders on too..........

any post with the referrel to the "yellowcake" points to someone that themselves have little idea what they are saying

Well, it's the term used by George Tenet and other Clinton-era intell people in their build up of evidence supporting the conclusion that Saddam was working on WMD production.

Yellowcake

A product of Uranium Ore, required to process into enriched Uranium.

Now, I knew exactly what I was talking about, but it seems you apparently do not? Perhaps you confused the term with "Urinal cake"? I can't understand how you might make that kind of strange leap, but it explains your perplexing lack of understanding.

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BenJeremy

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Bush Vs Kerry
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2004, 06:05:00 PM »

QUOTE (thomes08 @ Aug 25 2004, 07:50 PM)
i have a question for some people

say we knew for a fact saddam had those weapons...

Why is it OK for Bush to break treaties that he supported because saddam broke some rules?

HOLY SHIT HE FLIP-FLOPPED!

thomes08

P.S.  i haven't been here in a few days and i want to give credit to 67, pug, pegasys, and even thoughi  don't agree with him BJ for actually have some intelligent posts.  Unlike ones posted from mick garvy and theorkanman... christ glad they're not ehre anymore, even though i think they were the same lam person

What treaties were broken?

Saddam was in violation of cease fire agreements made at the end of Desert Storm. These were agreements with the US as well as with the UN, and his violation of those agreements permitted the US to resume action against Iraq's Baathist regime.


This did not require the existence of any WMDs, only his refusal to permit weapons inspectors free access to all sites.


There were other violations as well... probably too numerous to detail here. It's a situation similar to what the Germans did prior to WWII, where they built up their navies and armies with total disregard to the Armistice agreements from WWI, and look what happened when the World League and an isolationist America ignored THOSE violations.

History teaches us a lot. If you want to study truly unjust wars, try spending some time reading up on the Thirty Years' War (the dangers of religious intolerance). You might also want to examine just about any socialist aggression (liberalism married to anarchy, enforced by a despot) in the past century.


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