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[Maximumbeing]

Yeah Lizard, I read Memnoch the Devil too. The philosophical reaches of the book were amazing for the sex-driver author by which it was written (I had to put the book down after Lestat started drinking menstrual fluid...).

I was talking to some people of a nearby presbyterian church the other day, and they told me that human eyes could never handle seeing the divine, which begged me to ask how they were able to witness the "miracles" of Jesus. They told me then that Jesus was not divine in the human flesh, but only as he was performing such "miracles". Doesn't that seem a tad inconsistant though? He's divine only when need be, reminds me alot of the people who use the bible only when convenient.

In the end it's plain to see what has happened to religion:
The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. 'Whither is God?' He cried; 'I will tell you. We have killed him - you and I. All of us are his murderers.'

-Friedrich Nietzsche

[gainpresence]

I say there are two options:
1: You die, you get burried, people cry, you rot.
2: You die, you go to heaven or hell (in your case, hell), you are there eternally.

[vincent_y79]

QUOTE

If we wish to have a chance in our future, we must get rid of it

Religion is a cohesive force that have held many lives together through traumatic events which would have otherwise been torn apart without it. Families that have lost love ones console themselves that their beloved have gone to a better place. Individuals that have nothing else to look forward to in the future and is on the verge of suicide can comfort themselves that God is still out there and loves him. These individuals chance to even continue with their future was given to them by their faith.

There are no arguments to say otherwise that religion have never been the cause of war. The Muslim extremist and the Jews in the Bible are certainly easy examples. But religion drove their civilization forward through conquest of land and people.

Its almost undeniable that a strong goverment is essential for a stable future. It sets a structure to how business can be conducted, punishment be served and down to something as mundane as when you can hunt. Religion is also such that it can set rules to how we treat each other. Teaching good morale isn't enough, those morales have to be universal and structured and everyone agree so life can be harmonious. Let goverment govern the body and religion the spirit. Both are essential for the future.

Edit:I can give a better argument later (maybe) I did this while answering telephones at work so my line of thought kept getting interrupted. I want to be more elloquent but I don't feel like getting into college mode right now. I feel like I'm writing a paper for a prof. This isn't for a paper is it?

[bagel5009]

Im Christian and i believe in it very strongly and have  no doubts about it

[gainpresence]

I was thinking the same thing, Ace.

Maybe catholic?  

[Snakers]

Religion is a form of control that a government uses to control people.

[Ace25]

Just the majority.. sheash, we got pres bush jr. here preaching from the bible just about daily now.. I thought there was something in the constitution about seperation of church/state? You can't pray in a public school, yet we have to put up with hearing scripture everytime the President speaks.. ok.. need to stop or this will be a huge rant about the gov't. which is not the intention of this topic. The End.

[gainpresence]

All the constitution says is this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That, of course, is to protect the church from the state controlling it (which will eventually happen, and you will join in on it).

The writers of our constitution were Christians.

[vincent_y79]

QUOTE (Snakers @ Feb 7 2003, 09:19 PM)

Religion is a form of control that a government uses to control people.

Thats only when you let religion to be the goverment. A big mistake that happened in England around the 13-15 century I think when even the king have to ask the permission of the church to take a piss. The church became so corrupt that you can pre-pay for forgiveness before you actually do the sin. Indulgence it was called. Disgusting little thing.

[gainpresence]

The law prohibiting Religion (and prayer) in schools was enstated in 1963 (?).

Coincidentally, this is the same year (or time period) that morals declined rapidly and diseases shot up drastically (STDs).

[vincent_y79]

QUOTE (Ace25 @ Feb 7 2003, 09:29 PM)

Wow, guess your right.. so where did the term "seraration of church and state" actually come from and what prohibits having religion taught in public schools?

Prohibiting prayer from school isn't on the constitution but was only recently passed as law back in the late 80's or early 90's?? Someone had a notion on their head that praying in school forces religion on their children. A boyscout was in the news also, he got kicked out cause he refused to take their oath or something that included believing in god or something. And surely you must have heard of that recent controversy regarding the Pledge of Allegiance's revision? I think the changing the Pledge of Allegiance comes to the same ridiculous bullshit as that lady that sued McDonalds for having a hot coffee.

Edit: gainpresence had the right date on the prayer in school thing. see above.

[N00bvin]

QUOTE (bagel5009 @ Feb 7 2003, 06:14 PM)

Im Christian and i believe in it very strongly and have  no doubts about it

...and I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with that, per se.

I don't want to convince others, exactly, but to open dialogue on both sides.

Let me stress that point too... if you have a belief, then believe... do not try to push your "opinion" on others.  I state clearly that my thoughts and beliefs are just that MINE... I will not call your house or knock on your door (though some do) to talk you into believing what I believe.

Unfortunately the Muslim extremist believe that if I don't believe, then I should DIE.  Well, excuse me if that is not a fucked way of thinking.

Continue to believe... but let everyone else (including your children one day) make a choice.  

BTW... any "God" that would send me to hell for having an opinion (though I'm "fairly" moral... and actually a pretty nice guy) is not a god that I would want to "believe in" in the first place.

Why can't families have cohesion without religion?  I know it is comforting to know that someone is in "a better place"... but I don't think I like that thought either.  Too many people "waste" there life thinking that there is something else.  Well, maybe there is, maybe there isn't...

Argument for:  There is a heaven... you live your life spiritually, but conservatively thinking that there is an after life...

Argument against:  There is no heaven... you die and that's it... you wasted the ONE CHANCE you had to do exactly what you want.  Instead of going mountain climbing on Sunday, you went to church...

...neither is much of an argument... but my point... this MAY be it... don't waste it... believe in YOURSELF.

I'm down with the Mother Earth thing... not in a Wicca way, but I dig it.  That reminds of a thought I've always had.  Extremist tree huggers.  Yes, I believe in recycling and such... but more because I want to save my ass and save the ass of my children... not because of "Mother Earth"... if you are a SEVERE BIG TIME tree hugger, your best bet is to throw your trash on the street, drive SUVs that chug fumes and gas, and throw styrofoam in the ocean.  Why you ask?  If you love Mother Earth so much... kill all the humans by making the place uninhabitable.  Guess what... the Earth will outlast ALL OF US no matter what (save a huge meteor that blows the planet in half).  We could have a world devestated by nuclear war... in 3 million years the Earth will still be here and nothing would know humans existed (except in maybe fossils) a whole new life form would pop up oblivious to whatever happened...

[gainpresence]

Yes, there was another law in the early 90s prohibiting teacher led prayer, the 60s one was prayer in class.

[Snakers]

the constitution was created by god fearing men.  All of the framers were religious, maybe not to the same god, but none the less, they were religious.  Infact, if you do your research real good, they choose to exclude any use of the term god from the constitution because people were suppose to be free in their choice of religion and once the constitution was written, it was taken literally and just about set in stone.  Thus the mention of god in the constitution was left out.  However, during the writing of it, Ben Franklin lead the pray every day for the debating and writing of the constitution.

[Snakers]

and about that whole seperation of church and state....churches dont pay taxes which is where the state cannot tax a religious organization, whether it is profitable or not.

it is not illegal to say a prayer in school.  however it is illegal to say it out loud in the presence of others because you may be forcing your religion on them.  religion is allowed to be taught in schools, but as a teacher, you can not favor a religion or say that it is better.  Basically everything comes down to how you use it.  theres 2 ways to everything.  and about the pledge, nobody is forcing you to say or listen to it, so dont.  if you want to say the pledge but dont believe in god, skip that part.  if you refuse to have anything to do with the likeness of god, dont spend or own money, "in god we trust" is plastered on every US piece of currency.