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[brienj]

BTW, I am still not banned from XBL, and I have all sorts of stuff on my C: and E: drives that should get me banned if they scanned the HD.  I really believe that MS has no intentions of "screwing over" the modchip users.  They just don't want you to play on Live with it enabled, that's it.  

Please, others feel free to conduct your own tests, so we can finally lay this issue to rest, and another thank you to all the people that are backing up my claims, it was getting real annoying to be called a liar by so many people.  

[shanafan]

QUOTE

Also I don't think they want people buying two xboxes because they don't exactly make money on the things.

So they'd rather have them sit on the shelf and completely lose out?

[Silver_Surfer]

Thanks for all your hard work guys in getting this invaluable information to all us Xbox modders. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

1. Am I correct in my understanding, that I can basically utilise my Xbox in exactly the same way I was with Live 1.0 installed as long as I disable the auto sign-in in the MS dash...ie keep my links to the MS dash through Evox and XBMP etc...

I never go to the MS dash through other Apps. while connected to the network anyway.

QUOTE

I use the MS dash to play music and backup game saves. So, I can't use it anymore? Remember that backup you have? You can still use the old MS dash on your Xbox too. There is a folder called "xboxdashdata.1012a700" and a file called "xboxdash.xbe". I recommend renaming that file to something like "oldmicro.xbe" (it has to be 8 characters long). Now, Download WinXIP. Load WinXIP, and select File->Resign Dashboard. Find "oldmicro.xbe" and also that folder. WinXIP will resign the files to work with the renamed XBE file. Finally, after resigning, put that folder and that XBE onto your Xbox's HD in C:. Link to that XBE in EvolutionX. Now, when you load "oldmicro.xbe", you will be able to use the old MS dash without connecting to Live.

2. Is the above step still neccessary if the Mod chip is ON, in order to play Music CD's and DVD's in the MS player via the EvoX dash as long as the network cable is removed?

I have a Matrix in mode 3 with blue mod and Evox V1.8.3752 is my main dash.....

Thanks for any clarification.

[paulthims]

QUOTE (Silver_Surfer @ Sep 15 2003, 12:16 PM)

Am I correct in my understanding, that I can basically utilise my Xbox in exactly the same way I was with Live 1.0 installed as long as I disable the auto sign-in in the MS dash...ie keep my links to the MS dash through Evox and XBMP etc...

Silver_Surfer, from our current findings to date, your understanding appears to be correct -- an Xbox Live v2.0 box will not connect to Xbox Live if Auto Sign-In is disabled.  

From the dashboard (mod-chip off, Auto Sign-In off), network traffic to Xbox Live is initiated when you do one of two things:

1. Click on Network Settings from within the Settings menu. Note, this can be done without an XBL account.  I have no idea if your Xbox can get banned or pre-banned by doing this option, but I can tell you that data packets are sent to an outside WAN computer.

2. Click on your XBL account from within the Xbox Live Select Account menu.  According to my test, clicking on the Xbox Live tab from the dashboard does not initiate network traffic.  It's not until you select your account that traffic begins.

I did not test what happens on the network when you click on the MS Dash option from within EvolutionX, for at the time, I had not concluded that it was safe to do so.  From our findings to date, however, it appears to remain a safe option.  

Just make sure ....

a) Auto Sign-In is disabled

b) You don't click on Network Settings

c) You don't select your Xbox Live account from within the Xbox Live Select Account menu.

[Psycho_Penguin]

QUOTE (Telemachus @ Sep 15 2003, 01:58 AM)

I think the legality issue arrises from the fact that M$ is doing this to people who have NOT agreed to the XBL agreement.  By just clicking on the XBL tab, it will log on and update your HD. By your premise, it should only do so for people who HAVE and XBL account, an active gamer tag, since they have agreed to these conditions. As it is now, people can log in and get their EEPROM banned without even having an XBL account.  They should at least have a chance to read that agreement before the download occurs, and have a way to cancel it before it downloads if they don't agree (other than resetting the box).

I understand and agree with you entirely.

As I said I have no legal training and it's just my interpretation of the XBox Live Agreement.

I personally own one of the first generation Xbox's V1.0 Yes I know, I paid through the nose. But my XBox didn't have a Live enabled Dash out of the box. It had to be enabled either by a game or by a Live Starter Kit. I actually enabled/installed the Live Dash by updating from Splinter Cell, but can't remember if the License Agreement was shown before it did the update.

At some point V1.1 or V1.2? V1.1 I think, MS started including the Live dash as standard on the XBox. I don't own one of these or later XBox's so can't check the License agreement that shipped with them. But with a Live dash installed when the XBox shipped what's the betting the License agreement is an XBox Live style agreement and different to the original V1.0 License Agreement?

If someone who owns one of the later XBox's that shipped already Live enabled then they could easily check.

Checking the XBox Site, there is no longer any sign of a License agreement for an XBox, only an XBox Live agreement.

MS have been in the computer industry long enough to get their act together with Licenses and what they can and can't legally do. They also have the funds and lawyers to draw out legal battles way beyond the average persons financial capabilities. Anyone remember MS vs Apple? Or the spectacle surrounding the inclusion of IE in Windows? Can you afford to fight a legal battle for months, nevermind years?

This doesn't imply they are perfect and won't overstep the mark, but I think they are very unlikely to leave themselves wide open to legal action being taken by all non-live xbox users.

The only way we can properly clarify the situation is for someone with a legal background to examine the various License agreements that ship with the XBox, Live enabled games (Both DL Content and Online Play) and the XBox Live Kit and listen to the conclusions they draw.

[Psycho_Penguin]

MS don't want to stop offline Mod-Chip Users?

So MS have fixed the software exploits for now with XBL 2.0. And why not? We damn them for the exploits they leave in Windows and expect them to be fixed. Yet they fix the exploits in an XBox and we damn them for it!?!?! Personally I'd hope new dash updates fixes exploits. After all I connect to XBL via the Internet. I'd like to think my XBox is safer than Windows when connected.

But what of the Mod-Chips?

It would be nice to think that MS don't have any problems with people using Mod-Chips if they want to use their XBox offline.

If this is the case then I have a couple of queries. We are now seeing the 5th Revision of the XBox. V1.0-V1.4

V1.0-V1.1 Apart from leaving the LPC sockets free from solder, XBLive dash was shipped as stardard. (I think. Some clarification would be useful for me.)

V1.2 First board revision to reduce manufacturing costs.

V1.3 Same as V1.2 but with the LFRAME disconnected. Why? The track is still there, and it doesn't reduce the manufacturing costs enough to warrent doing. But one major side effect. LPC based Mods stop working. Team Executer find a fix and the X2.1 becomes the X2.2. Standard LPC mods will not work. Other Mod Teams create their own work arounds.

V1.4 Another revision which reduces costs. Major pointer is a new TV Encoder Chip. Cheaper than the previous one. Again LPC based mods mysteriously stop working.

Teams are currently working on fixes and work arounds. Efforts are in another thread on these boards. As of today a 29 Wire mod works but still no LPC mods are working. Many theories as to why are floating but nothing concrete yet. Work in Progress.

To say MS are not bothered about Mod-Chip users would be nice, but in reality why make changes which won't have any significant impact to their manufacture costs?

The LPC port is a nice feature for the QA departments in the testing process. But it was exploited so a design revision closed the exploit. The LPC port was once again exploited, and the next design revision seems to have closed the new exploit. (hopefully mod teams will have the answers soon)

Do you really believe it's just a manufacture cost reducing exercise?

Anyone with a Mod-Chip is potentially lost revenue for MS. It is widely published that MS are running a loss leader on the hardware, are on a 3 yr game plan and are looking to profit from XBL and software sales.

With a loss on hardware and a modded Xbox, how do they recoup the money from software sales? Some users they'd never expect to recoup any money from. They want the XBox to run Linux, try hardware projects etc. But the rest?

Note to Board Mods: I realise this post is a little off topic, but there are at least 2 occasions people have rasied the point, and this is in response to them. Maybe posts regarding this matter should be moved to another topic.

[Grendal]

Good point.  I wouldn't be surprised to see HDD scanning soon.  It would suck, but I wouldn't blame them.  I'd just have to get another box for online play, or look into running 2 hard drives and switching between them, which would also suck.

[shanafan]

QUOTE (Silver_Surfer @ Sep 15 2003, 07:16 AM)

QUOTE I use the MS dash to play music and backup game saves. So, I can't use it anymore? Remember that backup you have? You can still use the old MS dash on your Xbox too. There is a folder called "xboxdashdata.1012a700" and a file called "xboxdash.xbe". I recommend renaming that file to something like "oldmicro.xbe" (it has to be 8 characters long). Now, Download WinXIP. Load WinXIP, and select File->Resign Dashboard. Find "oldmicro.xbe" and also that folder. WinXIP will resign the files to work with the renamed XBE file. Finally, after resigning, put that folder and that XBE onto your Xbox's HD in C:. Link to that XBE in EvolutionX. Now, when you load "oldmicro.xbe", you will be able to use the old MS dash without connecting to Live. 2. Is the above step still neccessary if the Mod chip is ON, in order to play Music CD's and DVD's in the MS player via the EvoX dash as long as the network cable is removed? I have a Matrix in mode 3 with blue mod and Evox V1.8.3752 is my main dash..... Thanks for any clarification.

Sorry for the long quote I had to do...

Since we can disable the auto sign-in, ignore that about using another MS dash. Sorry! Should have deleted that...

[shanafan]

QUOTE

So MS have fixed the software exploits for now with XBL 2.0. And why not? We damn them for the exploits they leave in Windows and expect them to be fixed. Yet they fix the exploits in an XBox and we damn them for it!?!?! Personally I'd hope new dash updates fixes exploits. After all I connect to XBL via the Internet. I'd like to think my XBox is safer than Windows when connected.

I am very happy MS fixed the dashboard exploits. Make the cheap bastards buy a modchip  

[Psycho_Penguin]

QUOTE (chevrix @ Sep 15 2003, 10:13 PM)

QUOTE (shanafan @ Sep 15 2003, 10:08 PM) QUOTE So MS have fixed the software exploits for now with XBL 2.0. And why not? We damn them for the exploits they leave in Windows and expect them to be fixed. Yet they fix the exploits in an XBox and we damn them for it!?!?! Personally I'd hope new dash updates fixes exploits. After all I connect to XBL via the Internet. I'd like to think my XBox is safer than Windows when connected. I am very happy MS fixed the dashboard exploits. Make the cheap bastards buy a modchip   A mod chip is a fine peace of technology. But getting the same result with only exploits... RESPECT for that hackers

Full respect to those that found them and made use of them.

But for anyone using them. Remember that software holes can always be fixed. And don't be surprised when they are. That's all I meant.

[Psycho_Penguin]

CODE

Xbox   Net Sniffer  |         | 8 Port Hub     |  Switch     |  Firewall     |  Internet

The Hub means I can see all traffic from the XBox. The switch isolates all traffic except broadcasts from my other PC's being seen by the XBox and Sniffer. The Sniffer is running in promiscuous mode. The firewall restricts no access for the XBox accessing the Internet.

All tests were performed a minimum of 6 times. Any broadcast traffic from other PC's on my network was ignored. It was just windows looking for other windows pc's. Between each test the XBox was powered off and on.

Mod-Chip Disabled.

I ran tests looking specifically at the following sections initially:

Hardware Init (BlubberScreen)

Bios Load (X Logo)

Main Dashboard

For all test senarios

BlubberScreen : No Traffic.
X Logo : No traffic.
Main Dashboard: There were 2 different results.

a) First poweron. 6 Packets. 4 To find a dhcp server and lease an address. 2 Arp broadcasts (Arp maps IP Addresses to MAC addresses)
All following power ons. 4 Packets. 2 to request same IP. 2 Arp broadcasts.


Live Dash Login.

First Login Only.

No traffic until a GamerTag was selected. A Dashboard Login does not request a passcode.
Then a DNS query and response for TGS.XBOXLIVE.COM
A Kerberos request and reply (Security logon)
UDP Traffic (Data transfer, Source & Dest 3074)

All following Logins:

No Traffic until a GamerTag was selected.
UDP Traffic Only (Data Transfer)

There is no DNS or Kerberos Request. The Kerberos request has an expiry time attached to it. Examining the Kerberos request showed my xbox sent a hostname (SN.<my xbox serial no>@xbox.com for the Realm PASSPORT.NET), and an expiry date and time for the Kerberos Exchange. So my XBox uniquely identifies itself to MS on it's very first connection to XBL.


Auto Login

All traffic from power on until logged in, as above


Network Settings

Entering Network Settings:
A DHCP Request and Arp broadcasts.
UDP Traffic

Exiting the Network settings:
A DHCP request and ARP broadcasts.

The time this changes is if you haven't yet accessed XBL before entering the network settings at which point it will perform a Kerberos Exchange with XBL. Everytime after this exchange the Network Settings just forced a DHCP request and Arp broadcasts.


So to accessing the Live Tab in Games.

Running Burnout 2 - Game not in XBox.

Powered On XBox. Did it's usual lease an IP and send a couple of ARP broadcasts.

Placed game into XBox. No traffic apart from an arp request here and there. Nothing unusual. Ran a full single race (5 Laps PA Reverse) Still no traffic.

Selected XBox Live - Sign In, Waited. No traffic
Selected my GamerTag, Waited at enter PassCode confirmation. No Traffic
Entered PassCode and watched the traffic flow.
Looked around the various records.
Signed Out of Live. Data traffic flow
Played another single player game with no traffic flow.


Running Burnout 2 - Game already in XBox.

Powered on XBox. No traffic at all.
Played a single player game. Still no traffic.
Selected XBox Live - Sign In, Waited. XBox Leased an IP Address.
Selected GamerTag, waited at passcode confirmation. No Traffic
Entered Passcode and watched the data traffic flow.
Signed Out of Live. Data traffic flow
Played another single player game with no traffic flow.

Only difference is the Network DHCP initialization doesn't take place until accessing the in game XBL Tab.

Now with a Mod-Chip On

So lets try a game backup.

MOTOGP2 Backup.

While I'm confident it'll provide similar results to Burnout 2, and also taking into account my previous tests of PSO and GR:IT I'm still not taking any chances. The firewall is configured not to allow any traffic from my XBox to the Internet. Blocked by XBox IP Address. I removed my existing online MotoGP2 save.

First confirm I can't access Live. Mod-Off, try connecting to Live. Could not connect.

Power Off. Mod On and so to Evo-X

As before:

BlubberScreen (Hardware Init): Nothing
X Logo (X2 Bios Load): Nothing
Evo-X: DHCP request and response. Arp broadcasts and an NTP attempt. My Evo-X is configured to Sync Time from the Internet.

MotoGP Loads: Another DHCP request
Select my local save game and run a race: No traffic
Select my GamerTag, first time used so offers to import settings: No Traffic
Imports settings and requests my passcode: No traffic
Enter passcode: And it tries to connect to Live. Says it can't connect (Thankyou Firewall) and offers me troubleshooting or offline play.
Select offline: No traffic.


Memory Management

So from Evo-X to the MS Dash for a little account management.

Power off and on.
Usual DHCP, ARP and NTP from Evo-X
Start MS Dash: Yet more DHCP and ARP
Go to memory management and delete the newly created MotoGP account: No traffic.
Enable Auto Sign In: No traffic

Power XBox off and On to restart with Evo-X
Once again as before:
Usual DHCP, ARP and NTP from Evo-X
Start MS Dash: The XBL screen is trying to Login.
Get an XBLive is not responding error. (Heart skips a beat) But I have faith in my firewall. It's not blocking ports it's blocking the XBox IP
Disable Auto Sign-in

Power Off and On to reboot Evo-X
Then go to the MS Dash via Evo-X for some more memory management.
Only traffic is once again, DHCP, ARP and NTP

Why did paulthims see traffic during the hardware init and bios load?
I can't offer a concrete explanation for this. Experience of using products such as ADSL/Cable Routers have shown that while they claim to contain switches, they act more like 10/100 hubs than switches. Network cards will try to auto-negotiate speed and duplex with the hub/switch they are plugged into when they power on. Without seeing the network packet captures I can't confirm the traffic his sniffer was seeing.

My more complete conclusions.

1) Enable auto sign in and if you go anywhere near the MS Dash you will log into Live. Mod Chip enabled or not.

2) Booting to Evo-X will not connect you to XBL. Evo-X is not XBL aware.

3) After a period of being switched off, selecting the Network Settings or selecting XBLive and any option will send a new Kerberos Authentication. This is where your XBox Uniquely Identifies itself to XBL with your serial #

4) Performing a connection test will send a Kerberos Authentication to XBL, and your XBox will identify itself to XBL with it's serial #. This identification is unique for your XBox. Your XBox serial # is shown on the Network Settings, Connect screen. It is the same as the number on the bottom of your XBox

5) Based on 3) and 4) until your XBox has uniquely identified itself to XBL you will not be able to to use XBL features. It only needs to perform this identification once until your XBox is powered off for a period of time. Update: After leaving my XBox switched off for an hour it performed a Kerberos Authentication when I powered it back on and connected to XBL

6) Accessing the Main MS Dash (The one in the root of your C: drive, not the Live Dash ie xodash) directly or via Evo-X with no Auto Sign in to manage game saves will not connect you to XBL, or send traffic to XBL

7) Accessing the XBL Tab does not connect you to XBL until you select another option. GamerTag, New Account or Account Retrieval. Unfortunately with only having the one XBox I cannot confirm what happens if a game installs or updates the XBL Dash. The easiest way to test, would be on a non-XBL enabled XBox. Disconnect it from the network and update the dash from the game disc. It will update the dash, and if a connection to XBL is required try and fail to connect. More likely is it will take you to the XBL Tab and give you the option of New Account or Account Retrieval. This needs clarifying by someone without XBL on an XBox.

7) The Live enabled games I've tested will not connect you to XBL until you select a GamerTag, and if using a passcode, will not connect until you enter the passcode. The exception being PSO which doesn't connect you if you select OffLine Play.

The following are not proven or concrete, but speculations based on why you would use a passcode.

Why do games not connect even after GamerTag selection if you have a passcode?
The point of the passcode is to stop unauthorised access to your GamerTag. If a game automatically connected without asking for your passcode first it would be by passing the security MS put in place. The only exception to this is the XBL Dash, which asks your passcode or credit card details if you try to access anything from the Live Dash. ie, friends, voice chat, account management. Why? I've no idea.

Will this change in the future?
I feel it would be unlikely. Your passcode is part of your XBL security. Games may ask for it earlier. The Live Aware games may even require you to select a GamerTag and enter a passcode before letting you into the game. Until they arrive and can be tested this is unknown.

I take no responsibility for any actions people take regarding the information here, or the consequences of those actions. It is presented purely as a report of my tests with my own XBox.

(V1.0, 120Gb, LPC Mod with enable/disable switch, X2-4976.02 modified for F: boot and coloured boot logo)

[Cutriss]

So, if you can firewall off the Xbox (on a router) and just allow access whenever you want it, then there's no harm in keeping your Live account on the HD, is there?

[Psycho_Penguin]

QUOTE (Cutriss @ Sep 16 2003, 01:44 AM)

So, if you can firewall off the Xbox (on a router) and just allow access whenever you want it, then there's no harm in keeping your Live account on the HD, is there?

Not at all. As long as your router is capable of blocking traffic. Most routers on the market have filters of one sort or another in them.

Everyones situation is different.

As long as you remember to enable the firewall. And also remember to check it's not still enabled rather than having a heart attack the first time you get the XBL cannot connect error. (I've had that feeling once already tonight and it's not nice)

Personally, I don't have a memory card, or a need for one. I upgraded my dash with my account on the hard disk. So my live account lives on the hard disk, it always has. That's why I've spent the time finding out what it is I do on the XBox that triggers a connection to Live.

The pain for me using my firewall to block XBox access, is that my XBox lives downstairs hooked into the TV and Surround Sound system, and my firewall and PC's are upstairs. I don't want to have to run up and down stairs all the time to enable/disable rules on the firewall.

For my testing I plugged the hub and my work laptop in downstairs, but again, for day to day use I don't want the wires lying all over.

Another alternative would be, if you have Evo-X on the h/disk configure your Evo-X so the XBox has an IP that is on a different network range to your router and no default gateway. Configure you MS Dash so it can get on the Internet. While you are using Evo-X (therefore Mod-Chip enabled) your XBox can never get out to the Internet. But going to the MS Dash from Evo-X would give restore Internet. Also to access your XBox from your PC you'd need to change your PC network settings as well, so denying your PC internet access.

[paulthims]

QUOTE (Psycho_Penguin @ Sep 16 2003, 01:05 AM)

After reading Paulthims reports of traffic on the network I was curious to find out what was going on during the Hardware Init (BlubberScreen) and Bios Load (X Logo) My qualifation for interpreting the results. I'm a Network Engineer and regularly have to perform network traces, traffic monitoring on clients networks amongst other things.

Psycho_Penguin, thank you for correcting and expanding upon the tests I conducted earlier in the week.  

I, for one, feel more secure knowing that a network engineer has fully monitored what triggers traffic on boxes that have upgraded to Xbox Live v2.0.  

If you are anything like the network engineers I work with, there is likely little left to further ponder on this subject.  Nice work putting it to rest -- and thanks.

[Telemachus]

QUOTE (Psycho_Penguin @ Sep 16 2003, 02:06 AM)

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