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[JimmyGoon]

Some of what you guys are saying just doesn't make sense..

dev kit =\= (does not equal) pressed DVD's and publishing!

It will probably be some way of doing it at home or something... If MS processed every piece of homebrew that people submitted to them and sent them back a signed dvd... its absurd... you could just incorporate some "bug" to allow for 'true' homebrew or something...

I think people are misunderstanding the news... or heck, maybe I am...

[blah101]

from what i read and are understanding its going to be a Dev-Kit but probably wont have access to live functions and itll be just a standard template for the live function.  Also the whole pressed dvd.. ya your DEFINTLEY going to have to submit any peice of code to M$ so they can look @ your code and make sure there is no backdoor at all.  Plus there is still going to be the whole thing on where if they dont like your game they may not let you release it or put it on live for downloading.  Then if your code is clean and they want your game to be apart of there library there will be more money you have to put out so they can either press dvd's or put it on the marketplace to download it.  i will defintley have this as soon as i can.  cant wait to see how much i can do with this.

[krawhitham]

MS will have to let you test your software on the 360 before sending it to MS for inspection.  So maybe anyone willing to pay the $100 could run homebrew.  Just download the source code and load it on your xbox over the network.

[Drunkn_Munky]

QUOTE(blah101 @ Mar 22 2006, 05:30 AM)

from what i read and are understanding its going to be a Dev-Kit but probably wont have access to live functions and itll be just a standard template for the live function.  Also the whole pressed dvd.. ya your DEFINTLEY going to have to submit any peice of code to M$ so they can look @ your code and make sure there is no backdoor at all.  Plus there is still going to be the whole thing on where if they dont like your game they may not let you release it or put it on live for downloading.  Then if your code is clean and they want your game to be apart of there library there will be more money you have to put out so they can either press dvd's or put it on the marketplace to download it.  i will defintley have this as soon as i can.  cant wait to see how much i can do with this.

Do you honestly think MS will be able to thoroughly inspect every bit of homebrew submitted?

It is either bullshit, or it'll be very restricted. It could even just be their version of 'flash' which people found on the Kiosk disk.

[kvajnto]

QUOTE

Since last spring when the Xbox 360 was first announced, one of the biggest concerns was that it would be too expensive for most game developers to create games for the next-generation console.

Do they actually believe that it's the cost of the development kit that's the bottleneck here?

[gasclown]

love the apple 11  analogy^^

This could be really cool. desig yr code, send away to MS, gets verified, they send back the signed xbe, easy. of course youd be bound by a truckload of restrictions on functions. still fun though.

if theyve got no problems distributing burnable legit .xex's they wont have any trouble signing a homebrew that passes verification.

[quall]

Meh, I don't believe that this kit is going to be anything that any hobby dev will find useful. Strictly retail and Indie's (who don't suck) getting into the business.

Probably the only people who will get their game to run on the console are those who have a polished copy on the PC, or at least polished work to show (a.k.a, Anke for the PC platform, created by indies but really well done).

[PedrosPad]

My 2 cents of speculation.

QUOTE(Xbox-Scene @ Mar 22 2006, 01:57 AM)

But at the Game Developers Conference here today, the rumor is that MS plans on announcing tomorrow a developers kit that would make it possible for anyone to build games for the console, or for PCs, and that the kit will cost only about $100.

QUOTE(Xbox-Scene @ Mar 20 2006, 05:42 PM)

The XNA Framework contains a custom implementation of the MS. .NET Framework and new game-development-specific libraries designed to help game developers more easily create cross-platform games on Windows and Xbox 360 using the highly productive C# programming language.

So we know M$ are putting an implementation of the .NET CLR on X360!  This’ll be delivered in an update via XBL.  I recon the 'devkit' will be a collection of C# X360 libraries for use with M$'s Visual Studio product.  Since .NET code is 'managed code' there is little to no security risk.

The .NET assemblies will be able to be put on a USB connected storage device (Hard disk, KeyDrive, etc.) for local testing on your X360, and could, optionally, be submitted to M$ for eventual publication on XBL.  M$ already has strong .NET automatic code checking tools that it uses for it's current M$ certification program.

Yup.  That fits with the promises within the two articles.

This strategy will expose a whole new upcoming generation of budding engineers to M$'s own .NET & C# languages, who will eventually feed into the job market, broadening M$'s foothold and assuring that their technologies and toolsets dominate.

[zX_Storm]

My opinion on this is that M$ will create a framework/game application that runs our "homebrew" with these limited capibilities. They won't let us interact with other games, create kernel-level software, or other things. This is, if they do, in fact, release a cheaper dev kit. Since we obviously can't put our own DVD-R's in the system to run these because the media flag, a program they make would have to allow it run when it detects a DVD-R in the system, and that parent program is always controlling it. Kind of reminds me of LUA. Make's sense to me.

[twistedsymphony]

I agree with PedrosPad and The Bat... X360 extensions for current coding environment, and a semi-emulator to run this on a PC for testing before MS certification. It'd be cool if it included a wired controller too  

No where does the definition of a developers kits state that you have to be able to run your code on the actual hardware.

I love how everyone automatically applies this to homebrew and "MS will limit our abilities" blah blah blah... as if they were going to somehow give us a way to test this stuff on a retail console.  

They can give use fully functional software for $100 without worrying about big name devs feeling cheaped out because big name devs got development hardware to test their own builds... THATS the limitation.

Innovative games are a dying breed in today gaming industry, if you make it easier for indy devs to get into the game you open the door to a whole lot more innovation. Which means more game sales (and $$ through MS licensing) and thus more consoles sales which means more game sales, etc, etc, etc...

I'm not the greatest programmer in the world but I've got visual studio and if I can snag a kit for $100 that comes with the appropriate extensions and some kind of emulation layer for testing, I'm all over that like a hobo on a ham sandwich.

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If you DO want to apply this to homebrew then it DOES help that too
On the Xbox 1 the bios images are illegal because they're based off of MS's own bioses and thus pirated software. We also can't distribute XBEs because our homebrew stuff can only be compiled with rogue XDKs (again pirated) making their compiled results also considered pirated/illegal.

If the XDKs can be had for $100 that means the homebrew apps, which might never be distributed or authorized by MS would potentially be freely distributed in compiled form since we would be able to compile them with actual licensed XDKs. To run them the console would still need to be modified to run unsigned code. However if we were to determine a legal method of doing that (legal bios/firmware/what have you) then it would completely legitimize 360 homebrew.

Not to mention the XNA can supposedly be used to make Xbox 1 titles, which means... we could potentially see a legal XBE for XBMC if this kit delivers what it's supposed to.

All that aside, we don't know what kind of legal restrictions or agreements you might be required to sign to get one of these XDKs... but I can't see this being anything more then an overall good for the industry and Xbox enthusiasts.

[PedrosPad]

QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Mar 22 2006, 06:53 PM)

No where does the definition of a developers kits state that you have to be able to run your code on the actual hardware.

I love how everyone automatically applies this to homebrew and "MS will limit our abilities" blah blah blah... as if they were going to somehow give us a way to test this stuff on a retail console.  

They can give use fully functional software for $100 without worrying about big name devs feeling cheaped out because big name devs got development hardware to test their own builds... THATS the limitation.

I see your points, and they're good ones...but reading:

QUOTE(Xbox-Scene @ Mar 22 2006, 01:57 AM)

But at the Game Developers Conference here today, the rumor is that MS plans on announcing tomorrow a developers kit that would make it possible for anyone to build games for the console, or for PCs, and that the kit will cost only about $100.

The quote and the price point kind'a got Sony's Yaroze kit in my mind, and that M$ were after the same audience.  It could be done.  IIRC Student editions of Visual Studio are available.  Combine that with the extra $100 cost of a CD of X360 libs, and you're away.

QUOTE(PedrosPad @ Mar 22 2006, 02:39 PM)

The .NET assemblies will be able to be put on a USB connected storage device (Hard disk, KeyDrive, etc.) for local testing on your X360.

But I suspect I’m dreaming.

Another worring thought is it could be Macromedia Flash-based.  "You've seen what HexicHD can do.  Now you too can write your own games for X360".  Yuck!  

[pcrat]

They finally realized letting us create the games WE want since WE are the gammers.
its tough sometimes playing a game, and u wish this was in there instead of that, or walk/run this way,instead of there way.
OF course we all look at games and see theres something we would like in the game to make it better.
we make the games, and yes they go to MS to be checked, and if pass, then they send it off and get the disc signed etc.

I do think they will let us do certan things, But for the legitamate  dev's out there that would create a  good game and not a game with a bunch of cheats in it to play onlive, that only a handfull of people would know, but then again that would make the game worthless and noone would buy it. basically the same as halo 2,
on that note, i do hope someone makes a game that blows halo out of the water.

But hey is MS, god forbid they let the "gammers" have control of they do and know best!

[deadparrot]

QUOTE(PedrosPad @ Mar 22 2006, 05:19 PM)

Another worring thought is it could be Macromedia Flash-based.  "You've seen what HexicHD can do.  Now you too can write your own games for X360".  Yuck!  

That is worrying.  I mean, Flash is great for drawing, but trying to actually write an effective game with any decent features is just not nice.  XBLA would end up like newgrounds  

[True Vox]

I think this may have been said elsewhere in this thread, but I feel it needs to be highlighted better (It was said somewhat in passing):

There will be no more chance of a vunerablity in this then MS wants to put in. They just run it in a sandbox enviroment (VM360 anyone? ) and, as far as my meager skill can show, there's NO CHANCE of "Bad Stuff" happening.

Want to get out of the fance and play in the field with the big kids? Gotta pony up for a real SDK. But for many dev's this will be a dream come true. Heck, they could even implement a VPN *JUST FOR GAMES MADE* with this $100 SDK, so there's NO CHANCE of tomfoolery, yet you can still take advantage of Xbox Live services (and just use MS's servers to make that ever needed first connection).

Anyone with more technical skill (read: Better then intermidiate programming in college, and a better history with emulators/virtulization then someone who just started using VMWare a few months ago and until then had only dealt with NES emulation) then I either back or debunk this standpoint?

EDIT: Heh. As you can tell from my member number and post count, I've been a lurker on here for QUITE some time.  Oh, and I just noticed a join date too... W00t! First post!!!

[derived]

QUOTE(True Vox @ Mar 23 2006, 02:01 AM)

I think this may have been said elsewhere in this thread, but I feel it needs to be highlighted better (It was said somewhat in passing):

There will be no more chance of a vunerablity in this then MS wants to put in.

That goes without saying, and yes, it has been said several times.

QUOTE

They just run it in a sandbox enviroment (VM360 anyone? ) and, as far as my meager skill can show, there's NO CHANCE of "Bad Stuff" happening.

Trying to emulate a 360 would be expensive and still crap for testing.

If it is C/C++, then this kit is probably an extension for Visual Studio, and compiles binaries to run on Windows. I think this is likely, given MSs history of giving away software to students for cheap or free so future gens depend on their products.

If it is C# or Flash, then this kit could be used to create real games that run (albeit in a virtual machine) on the Xbox.

QUOTE

Want to get out of the fance and play in the field with the big kids? Gotta pony up for a real SDK. But for many dev's this will be a dream come true. Heck, they could even implement a VPN *JUST FOR GAMES MADE* with this $100 SDK

Whaaa? Do you know what a VPN is?

QUOTE

, so there's NO CHANCE of tomfoolery, yet you can still take advantage of Xbox Live services (and just use MS's servers to make that ever needed first connection).

Who cares about Xbox Live? If we do get access to the Xbox (an I hope we do), it would likely be in a virtual machine and even if it gave access to the netowrk stack, it would not give you access to the infirmation needed to authenticate with live as a normal game.