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[Klutsh]

QUOTE(tbb033 @ Nov 21 2009, 09:49 AM)

Yes. But there's another law, the US copyright code, section 117, that says you're entitled to make copies, so long as you either need one to use the software (like if you need to install a computer program, that's technically copying data from a disc to a hard drive) or the copy is for archival purposes (aka a backup) and you destroy it if you transfer the original to someone else.

That's just it, using the said backup as the primary medium is not covered.
You don't need a copy to use it on a 360, the original works fine.
The copy you make is to be archived, not used.

I'm split 50/50 on this whole banning with extras, Yes MS are entitled to ban you from live, Yes they are being unfair by disabling features on the 360, but, now this is a big but, they ARE able to do that!
In your purchase price you bought the HARDWARE and are entitled to do with that as you please, you did NOT buy the software side of the 360, you only ever purchased a licence to use that software.

It actually the same with games, you buy the packaging, the psychical disc and a licence to use the software/content on that disc, the licence is only valid if you use the software on the original pressed media, or other media that the licence allows, ie installing on PC's, running from a 360's HDD.
If you transfer the content to a medium such as DVD-R, DVD+R DL etc, you are braking the software licence.

YOU broke Microsoft's terms, your HARDWARE is undamaged, your licence to use the software has been revoked, live with it.

The convenient timing of the bans is crap too, it's been November every year as far as I recall.

Now before you all flame me...

IF your 360 is totally untouched and has NEVER been modded then and ONLY then can you file a claim against MS.
Everyone makes mistakes and MS should re-instate your live access and issue some amount of compensation to you, even it's it's just 1 months extra live access.

[johnnyrico]

QUOTE(mat82284 @ Nov 21 2009, 03:57 AM)

Specifically ones with no copyright laws, like Canada.

erm, Canada does have copyright laws, out of which ass did you pull that bit of "information"?




TOS overruling law or not, you had to agree to the terms of service before completing signup. You agreed Microsoft reserves the right to terminate the Xbox Live service and revoke functionality at any time they feel the need to do so. You signed the agreement.

Plus on this suit they'll just tout the DMCA: it's illegal in the US to circumvent copy protections. And guess what? Your so called "backups" (yeah, keep telling the world it's for that!) and firmware hacks circumvent those copy protections and therefore, in conflict with the DMCA.


And the HDD is NOT crippled, you just cannot shift data between a banned console and an unbanned console and the install feature won't work on a banned console for obvious reasons. HDD installs weren't part of the original Xbox 360 functionalities, they were a bonus added by MS in the NXE dash.


If your xbox is truly unmodified, has never come in contact with unlicensed third-party equipment or modified data, and isn't 2nd hand(warranty doesn't apply to 2nd hand consoles) you can file an appeal with Microsoft.
However, if it was a tempban and they find you were banned for a legit reason, it WILL become a permban.


Your Xbox Live account isn't banned, the illegally modified console has just been locked out from Live.
Just recover the account to an unmodified console and play LEGALLY acquired games online from now on. MS made it impossible to transfer the HDD data between banned and unbanned consoles to stop pirates from updating their gamerscore with illegally acquired games along with other reasons.
So stop crying for a refund people.

[NeO_CooL]

people just don´t get it...
even if microsof makes us to accept a tos doesn´t makes it legal.
let´s see...
you sign a contract with a bank and in that contract says that you will shot yourself in the head or that you will lose all of your money when you get out of the bank... yep they can do that but doesn´t make it legal.

so even with all the lawyers that made the agreement that microsoft made you accept doesn´t mean that it´s legal.
some things are comon sense...
things that european and other part of the world are used too.,
what microsoft tell´s are not laws.
and their agreements have flaws.
look what happens in europe with microsoft. constantly loosing money in courts because antitrust and monopolyzing.

i´m telling you... Banned xbox 360´s will have the HD feature again. that´s certain

[medievil]

QUOTE(NeO_CooL @ Nov 21 2009, 11:35 AM)

people just don´t get it...
even if microsof makes us to accept a tos doesn´t makes it legal.
let´s see...
you sign a contract with a bank and in that contract says that you will shot yourself in the head or that you will lose all of your money when you get out of the bank... yep they can do that but doesn´t make it legal.

so even with all the lawyers that made the agreement that microsoft made you accept doesn´t mean that it´s legal.
some things are comon sense...
things that european and other part of the world are used too.,
what microsoft tell´s are not laws.
and their agreements have flaws.
look what happens in europe with microsoft. constantly loosing money in courts because antitrust and monopolyzing.

i´m telling you... Banned xbox 360´s will have the HD feature again. that´s certain

ummm no one would sign a contract at a bank that said that...

it's not use that don't get it, it's the people that think they have a case..lol

common sense???
common sense tells you that M$ has EVERY right to disable features in a modded xbox in order to protect it's investors and it's licensed game developers..

It would ONLY be illegal if it harmed the end user, in this case it does NOT harm the end user. the xbox still functions, but since it is a compromised xbox it no longer has the license rights to sign ANY code. so saves can't be moved and HD installs, etc will not work .
 that is perfectly legal, it is no different that an satellite company stopping hackers from viewing their channels for free...

HD installs will never be back on the banned console, bank on it...

What Microsoft altered was the Dashboard code, thats THEIR code to do with as they please.....

you even now have some banking on the nand write disable mod, which then all M$ will need to do is hash it on live sign in, run the updater and bam, ban your live account if it doesn't pass the hash immediately afterword...

[Tyrannical]

MS can blah, blah all it wants about it's Terms of Service.

You can still take them to court, and the judge can rule that their ToS violates consumer rights.

Some official MS moderators over at the Xbox forums are claiming that MS can ban your console for just a fan modification to increase air circulation. Now I don't think MS does ban or even detect for that, but that is just some of the BS lies MS is spreading.

[johnnyrico]

QUOTE(Tyrannical @ Nov 21 2009, 01:09 PM)

MS can blah, blah all it wants about it's Terms of Service.

You can still take them to court, and the judge can rule that their ToS violates consumer rights.

You agreed to those terms of service when you signed up, a judge can't do a frakking thing because you agreed to the terms.

[eses]

fuck ms, they killed my console after the last update, fkin noobs, fuck there terms, if i want to go online i have to update, i have no rights, i aint never buying anything ever in my life from the brand ms

[Wimba]

QUOTE(johnnyrico @ Nov 21 2009, 12:15 PM)

You agreed to those terms of service when you signed up, a judge can't do a frakking thing because you agreed to the terms.

I have not studied US law, but in my homecountry a judge can actually do something, even if you have agreed to some terms. Thats because we have a "consumer law" which is invariable. In practice it means that a dealer cannot make some terms, that is worse for the consumer than the terms in the law or derogate from the law.

[kcq71]

You people expect to sue a multi-billion dollar company and win?

[ccfman2004]

QUOTE(kcq71 @ Nov 21 2009, 01:53 PM)

You people expect to sue a multi-billion dollar company and win?

We can certainly try.

[tactical]

QUOTE(johnnyrico @ Nov 21 2009, 02:15 AM)

You agreed to those terms of service when you signed up, a judge can't do a frakking thing because you agreed to the terms.

Are you sure?  
I could point a gun at your head and tell you to sign my TOS , and it says that you give me permission to KILL YOU, you sign it and you are telling me the Judge can't do a "frakking" thing because you agreed to the terms.
Think, man, think.  Of course a JUDGE can do something, if everything was so "frakking" simple as you imply , why do we have so many LAWYERS.  
The thing is we have nothing to lose and MS could have a lot to lose. Bad PR. Word of mouth of people that start saying "more negative" things about MS.  Press and editorials. Nobody likes a bully.  The lawyers should focus on people that were banned that shouldn't have been. That is where the case is the strongest. Collect a handful and demand that MS turn over all the names of people that they unbanned and the reason why they were banned and unbanned and it would show that mass bans hurt people that didn't do anything wrong.  And MS should post that people can challenge it if they want.

[sean_2k5]

QUOTE(mat82284 @ Nov 21 2009, 09:20 AM)

You can go over to xbox.com and ask on the live forums and they have a way to retest your system to see if its modded, at the cost of your live account thought.

I would just delete your main live account, and create a new silver account on that hard drive and just tell them you bought the hard drive off ebay and put it on your system and you got banned and its saying you modified your system, which you didnt. So when they recheck your system it'll come back valid since you never opened it. If it comes back as invalid again, then it shows that the hard drive is storing information about the ban's and buying used hard drives is now a huge risk. Worse that happens is you loose your newly created silver account.

 

you lie, straight from M$ Forum


How do I tell if my Console is Banned?

Your console is banned if you see the following text when you attempt to log on:

    This console has been banned for violations of the Terms of Use. To protect the Xbox LIVE service and its members, Microsoft does not provide details about console bans. There is no recourse for Terms of Use violations.

Alternatively, if you get the extended status codes from the network troubleshooter and you see that you have Z:8015-190D, then your console has been banned.

How do I appeal a console ban?

There is no appeal for a console ban.  Microsoft will not ban a console without overwhelming evidence that it has been used to violate the Code of Conduct or Terms of Use.

Why did my console get banned?

Microsoft does not provide specific details as to why a particular console is banned. Typical reasons include but are not limited to:

    * Piracy/Theft
    * Cheating
    * Fraud
    * Phishing
    * Nudity
    * Sexually Explicit Material
    * Account Selling/Account Tampering


I didn't do any of that stuff, my <Friend/Brother/Sister/Cousin> did it, can you unban my console?

You are responsible for your account and console.  Your console will not be unbanned.

Why won't my post about a console ban appear on this forum?

Moderators are specifically told to delete posts regarding console bans since they will not be answered by the Enforcement Team.

For more information about Console Bans, consult http://www.xbox.com/en-us/consoleban.

[vintage_guitar]

QUOTE(No_Name @ Nov 21 2009, 12:25 AM)

It states in the EULA and TOS they can add and remove features at any time.
Go read it for yourself.

I'm pretty sure that elastic clause is just too elastic to hold up in any court of law in the USA. Really, terminology this vague? I'm sorry you actually believe this is true, I really do. This is not the constitution where an elastic clause this vague is necessary. Add/remove features relating to what exactly? Live? The console? Your television? Your house? "features" are not even defined in this TOS. Hilarious!

[fatvince]

QUOTE(No_Name @ Nov 21 2009, 02:44 AM)

But my point stands that the drive is 100% functional and unaffected by the ban, the data is also 100% intact just flagged as corrupt on another system due to the loss or trust.

That is called thinking outside the box. A box labeled "STUPID IDEAS"

STUPID IDEAS.. You got that right. Semantics won't help you.

[tactical]

sean_2k5
good post and very concise.
Thanks.

Now that attitude of MS that they have overwhelming evidence that the person did something wrong , and we match that with people that they banned by mistake could convince a jury that MS is using STRONG arm tactics, just like they use in dealings in past with other companies.
THESE MS strong armed tactics are against little kids.  At least some of them are, and some smart lawyers could file to see all the times that MS has unbanned people and to see this "overwhelming" evidence.  
I would have those people that were wrongly targeted gathered together and give a PRESS conference. Moms and Dads and little kids.  Big Bad MS.
I'm thinking the absolute POWERFUL way they went about this could make a Jury cringe and make them "change their attitude" with a big enough settlement.  I don't know and you don't know and MS doesn't know. So let's find out in court.
Also find out if MS has saved recordings of everything said on LIVE. And check to see if privacy was violated in any way. Interview MS employees and the people that do the banning and ask them "interesting questions" and do background checks on these people. Find out if any of these people ever were in hacking community and out them.  Overwhelming evidence is what they got us for, so lets get lots and lots of evidence ourselves about how they obtained that evidence and the people involved.  A judge could order them to supply that info.