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[I Moose I]

QUOTE(BirdofPrey @ Aug 21 2006, 05:17 AM)

It is also quite tedious to wait for host boxes unless you have a full party, if you going in on your own or with another player it could take a while to get host boxes to reduce the chances of getting bridged/modded.

That is true, although it's less important if you're going in as a single, because almost every cheater, cheats with a team. So, I do agree, that it is more of a team tactic.

QUOTE

That being said, the whole point of playing the game is to enjoy it no? And cheating will never completely die. So probably the best thing to do is not get so caught up in the whole rank thing and perhaps you won't be annoyed so much when you do get cheated.

I agree, I actually stopped waiting for host box quite a while ago. If I get cheated, I get cheated, it doesn't really bother me anymore.

[TheIrishLad]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Aug 19 2006, 11:25 AM)

Don't act all high and mighty

Didn't I say this too you?  


Waiting for host box doesn't prevent you from getting modded, it just means that the modder doesn't have host mods.  AKA:The map is default, no vehicles that aren't meant to be there are there, but the modder has auto-aim, super speed etc...etc....

Recently even when my 4 person party waits for host box, in the start of the game, none of us get host.  It goes to the other team, this has happened probably 5/6 times we have boxed host in the past day or so.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(I Moose I @ Aug 20 2006, 11:25 PM)

You're trying to tell me that most people can't host 7 other xboxes on their connection? All you need is a high speed connection. Even if you don't wait for host box, explain to me how that allows for a greater chance of a non-laggy connection? What are you going to quit out of every game that you don't get host box in, in order to have somebody else to get host? Does that not have the same chance of having a non-laggy connection. I don't want to hear about how "the game was not designed for that." The game wasn't designed for cheating either now was it? What's the worst of the two? Leting cheaters prevail or waiting for host box?

You have never addressed my point in that, other than arguements such as those. If you wait for host box, you have an extremely good chance of not getting cheated. If you listen to your xbox to check for an old map, that does even more so.



Nobody ever said that live isn't a bad enviorment for cheating. The point was, that with small precautions, you can minimize it.

And I don't care about the number from Xlink Kai to XBL. As said above, yeah there is a lot of cheating on live, but, there's easy ways to beat it.

 

Lol "high speed" is a generic term. You're horribly incorrect when you say "All you need is a high speed connection". There is a minimum requirement to the amount of upstream you must have to host 7 xboxs lag free. Also, your whole next point is mute because Halo2 attempts to give the player with the best connection host. If you have slow upstream as most "high speed" users do and you didn't quit out of games in order for live to set you up a new game and make you host, then you would almost never be host. How does it help games to be less laggy? If you have a small amount of upstream and are hosting a game that requires you to send data to 7 other machines thus overtaxing your connection, all of those people are going to lag. If you have a limited connection but are simply a client, you may have enough upstream to send your data to the host and not lag. If you don't, the only person you'll lag is yourself.

 

Next I will quote you from a previous post:

QUOTE

Modding/Standbying has given people a full-fire excuse to why they lost their levels, and I'm tired of hearing it. You don't get cheated that often, and even if you do, there are simple ways to make sure that you don't.

recent post:

QUOTE

The point was, that with small precautions, you can minimize it.

minimize or completely irradicate? make up your mind. At any rate it doesn't matter. Getting host is silly, impractical and proves that point that if you feel you have to do that so you get a fair game then it's a messed up system. Not to mention if you have host every game you have a distinct advantage over all the other players. You can keep posting these things all day long but it doesn't matter because it's either cheat or be cheated. Nothing you say can prove otherwise that the system is not very good. Nothing you say can disprove my point that the rating system encourages people to cheat. It does. It's obvious plain and simple. That was my original point and nobody has even tried to argue it.

QUOTE(TheIrishLad @ Aug 25 2006, 11:38 AM)

Didn't I say this too you?


Waiting for host box doesn't prevent you from getting modded, it just means that the modder doesn't have host mods. AKA:The map is default, no vehicles that aren't meant to be there are there, but the modder has auto-aim, super speed etc...etc....

Recently even when my 4 person party waits for host box, in the start of the game, none of us get host. It goes to the other team, this has happened probably 5/6 times we have boxed host in the past day or so.

 

Yes you did but it didn't make sense when you said it because I was defending myself and you were attacking me. lol

 

It doesn't matter what waiting for host does or doesn't allow the other players to do. It's that it gives the host a distinct advantage, it shouldn't have to be done, and the simple fact that people can manipulate the game in this manner and do proves that the system is horribly flawed.

[I Moose I]

QUOTE

It doesn't matter what waiting for host does or doesn't allow the other players to do. It's that it gives the host a distinct advantage, it shouldn't have to be done, and the simple fact that people can manipulate the game in this manner and do proves that the system is horribly flawed.

I do agree that host itself is an utterly idiotic concept, and I pray it isn't implemented in Halo 3. My point is that waiting for host box doesn't increase any chances of having a player with host who would make the game lag, compared to random players joining matchmaking. Somebody in the MM pregame will get host box, whether they want it or not. There will always be somebody, or a team, waiting in the pregame, with hostbox, if they were waiting for it or not. And even if that wasn't so, bungie gives the host to the connection in which the other players can best connect to, not whether the player has a good connection or not (although it does help). Basically the point I'm trying to make is that a player may get host (randomly) and still lag up the game. For instance, I could be downloading a large file, or have my router jammed with alternate connections, but I still may get host if my connection is easy to connect to for other players. Now, having a generally good connection does help to get host, but there is a fairly significant chance that the game will still lag.

QUOTE

minimize or completely irradicate? make up your mind. At any rate it doesn't matter. Getting host is silly, impractical and proves that point that if you feel you have to do that so you get a fair game then it's a messed up system. Not to mention if you have host every game you have a distinct advantage over all the other players. You can keep posting these things all day long but it doesn't matter because it's either cheat or be cheated. Nothing you say can prove otherwise that the system is not very good. Nothing you say can disprove my point that the rating system encourages people to cheat. It does. It's obvious plain and simple. That was my original point and nobody has even tried to argue it.

Minimize. Don't act like you can get rid of cheating on Xlink Kai either, because you can't.

Your first few points are opinions. I don't understand how you can consider patience cheating. You're being stubborn. No matter how many times you can call getting host box "silly" or "impractical," the fact of the matter is, that it almost always works, and is very effective against cheating.

Everybody knows that there cheating in the rating system, and that's something I'll admit to. Like I said Xlink isn't perfect either..

[TheIrishLad]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Aug 27 2006, 02:05 PM)

Yes you did but it didn't make sense when you said it because I was defending myself and you were attacking me. lol

  Yes, I'm sure I was...  

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(I Moose I @ Aug 29 2006, 07:08 PM)

I do agree that host itself is an utterly idiotic concept, and I pray it isn't implemented in Halo 3. My point is that waiting for host box doesn't increase any chances of having a player with host who would make the game lag, compared to random players joining matchmaking. Somebody in the MM pregame will get host box, whether they want it or not. There will always be somebody, or a team, waiting in the pregame, with hostbox, if they were waiting for it or not. And even if that wasn't so, bungie gives the host to the connection in which the other players can best connect to, not whether the player has a good connection or not (although it does help). Basically the point I'm trying to make is that a player may get host (randomly) and still lag up the game. For instance, I could be downloading a large file, or have my router jammed with alternate connections, but I still may get host if my connection is easy to connect to for other players. Now, having a generally good connection does help to get host, but there is a fairly significant chance that the game will still lag.

I never said the concept of host was idiotic. I said your suggestions were. Host is a necessary evil at the present time for online gaming until someone thinks up another way to do it. Your point is totally erroneous. How it is supposed to works is, live sends a big packet of data to all users. The connection that receives and sends the packet/s back first will be host. If a player happened to be downloading or any of the other scenarios you mentioned, they would be overlooked as host. There is no way to tell who has the best connection. I doubt live calls your isp and asks what package you have.  At any rate this does not guarantee that the game will not lag, because there are so many factors involved in what will or will not lag. The whole point was that EVERYONE can't wait for host. If they did, nobody would ever match up and play. Use your head. The host HAS the advantage because he does not lag no matter what. The deck is stacked because the host sees everything a fraction of a second before anyone else does. In short, it's an unfair and downright silly suggestion. Give up and admit that if you have to do such a thing to "Minimize" cheating then the whole deal is messed up.

QUOTE

Minimize. Don't act like you can get rid of cheating on Xlink Kai either, because you can't.

 

Again, I never said that. If you were comprehending you would know that I have been saying the rating system gives incentive for people to cheat..... to increase their rankings. On XLink people play for fun. It's not fun for very long to cheat. People don't do it as much on XLink plain and simple. This is fact.


 

QUOTE

Your first few points are opinions. I don't understand how you can consider patience cheating. You're being stubborn. No matter how many times you can call getting host box "silly" or "impractical," the fact of the matter is, that it almost always works, and is very effective against cheating.

Everybody knows that there cheating in the rating system, and that's something I'll admit to. Like I said Xlink isn't perfect either..

 

If by "patience" you mean waiting for host then it IS cheating based on the aforementioned statements. It gives a distinct advantage and therefore is cheating. Just because someone has to be host in every game does not give an individual the right to TAKE it every game. It then gives a consistent advantage rather than an occasional advantage and has been TAKEN rather than given. This makes it cheating since it is defeating the system in order to gain an advantage. I don't understand what you don't get about that. Bottom line, the rankings give incentive to cheat and it has spawned a TON of problems. Get rid of those and you won't have to worry about cheating anymore. It would be so rare nobody would even care.

QUOTE(TheIrishLad @ Aug 30 2006, 03:00 PM)

  Yes, I'm sure I was...

Dude give it up.... I'm sad for you.

[TheIrishLad]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Aug 31 2006, 09:07 PM)

Dude give it up.... I'm sad for you.

   I gave it up a few posts back if you remember...It's you who keeps firing the bullets!

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(TheIrishLad @ Aug 31 2006, 10:12 PM)

  I gave it up a few posts back if you remember...It's you who keeps firing the bullets!

 

Oh really? Lol you're lying again.  

I hadn't said anything to you since that last post you made and then you come up with this out of the blue.

QUOTE(TheIrishLad @ Aug 25 2006, 11:38 AM)

Didn't I say this too you?

 

Then I restated facts in my next post and you sarcasticly made this comment:

QUOTE(TheIrishLad @ Aug 30 2006, 03:00 PM)

  Yes, I'm sure I was...

 

Seriously, you're not going to be able to turn it around and make me the agressor here. You said you wanted to stop, I stopped. You said you wouldn't post here anymore. You did. You've come in here out of the blue twice and tried to pick on my posts. You've been unsuccessful both times. YOU initiated the conversation both times. It's fact. It's all provided as evidence in this very same thread. Why didn't you just stop when you said you were going to stop?

 

[I Moose I]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Aug 31 2006, 09:07 PM)

I never said the concept of host was idiotic. I said your suggestions were. Host is a necessary evil at the present time for online gaming until someone thinks up another way to do it. Your point is totally erroneous. How it is supposed to works is, live sends a big packet of data to all users. The connection that receives and sends the packet/s back first will be host. If a player happened to be downloading or any of the other scenarios you mentioned, they would be overlooked as host. There is no way to tell who has the best connection. I doubt live calls your isp and asks what package you have.  At any rate this does not guarantee that the game will not lag, because there are so many factors involved in what will or will not lag. The whole point was that EVERYONE can't wait for host. If they did, nobody would ever match up and play. Use your head. The host HAS the advantage because he does not lag no matter what. The deck is stacked because the host sees everything a fraction of a second before anyone else does. In short, it's an unfair and downright silly suggestion. Give up and admit that if you have to do such a thing to "Minimize" cheating then the whole deal is messed up.

The point about "what would happen if everybody did it, nobody would ever find a match" is ridiculously retarded. That's like saying, "What if everyone rode a bike? The gas companies would go out of business"
It isn't going to happen, and if you have to make the point to attempt to re-enforce your arguement, that's pathetic. You keep claiming that waiting for host box is "cheating." I'll tell you what, you find me an article or rule on bungie that clearly states that waiting for host box is cheating, and I'll drop my entire arguement right now. Hate to tell you bud, but you don't make the rules, bungie does.

No kidding the system is messed up. My god you're stupid, we've established that about 95 times now. Just because you're too lazy to wait for host box, doesn't mean that's everybody elses problem. It isn't cheating until you prove it, so don't even try to bring that point up again.
 

QUOTE

Again, I never said that. If you were comprehending you would know that I have been saying the rating system gives incentive for people to cheat..... to increase their rankings. On XLink people play for fun. It's not fun for very long to cheat. People don't do it as much on XLink plain and simple. This is fact.

I know 4 modders who mod on Xlink. 3 of them do it simply to piss people off. So there goes your point.
I will guarantee you that in terms of a volume of games:modders in games, that XBL's ratio is better.


 

QUOTE

If by "patience" you mean waiting for host then it IS cheating based on the aforementioned statements. It gives a distinct advantage and therefore is cheating. Just because someone has to be host in every game does not give an individual the right to TAKE it every game. It then gives a consistent advantage rather than an occasional advantage and has been TAKEN rather than given. This makes it cheating since it is defeating the system in order to gain an advantage. I don't understand what you don't get about that. Bottom line, the rankings give incentive to cheat and it has spawned a TON of problems. Get rid of those and you won't have to worry about cheating anymore. It would be so rare nobody would even care.
 

Dude give it up.... I'm sad for you.

Look above.

Now, considering Xlink has no matchmaking system at all, every single point you have about cheaters is now invalid. Xlink is like a poor, laggy XBL customs-only system. Except for the fact that you can't mod old maps on live, and if a modder tries to join your custom game, goodbye to him (boot).

[TheIrishLad]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Aug 31 2006, 11:35 PM)

I hadn't said anything to you since that last post you made and then you come up with this out of the blue.

QUOTE(TheIrishLad @ Aug 25 2006, 11:38 AM)

Didn't I say this too you?  

I was actually trying to be joking, notice the You could have just ignored it, but no, you have to have the last word.  And if you actually remember I DID say that to you.  

But I can see now that you like starting arguements with people, I guess some people get a kick out of it.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(I Moose I @ Sep 1 2006, 02:51 PM)

The point about "what would happen if everybody did it, nobody would ever find a match" is ridiculously retarded. That's like saying, "What if everyone rode a bike? The gas companies would go out of business"
It isn't going to happen, and if you have to make the point to attempt to re-enforce your arguement, that's pathetic. You keep claiming that waiting for host box is "cheating." I'll tell you what, you find me an article or rule on bungie that clearly states that waiting for host box is cheating, and I'll drop my entire arguement right now. Hate to tell you bud, but you don't make the rules, bungie does.

Lol. The retarded part about is your statement and I quote:

QUOTE

guess how many times I've been cheated? Zero. You know why? It's because I'm not an idiot. It's called waiting for host box, and if you're too stupid to do that, then you don't deserve to be playing anyway.

No matter whether everyone will do it or not, you suggested it and that's what I was saying was silly.... your suggestion. Don't try to switch it up or take the focus off of the real point. Your suggestion was not smart. It doesn't make sense and you're just plain wrong about the whole deal. My point is and has always been that Halo2's rating system ruins the online play. No matter what kind of silly points you try to come up with will never prove otherwise. I don't have to find an article on Bungie to prove that waiting for host is cheating. All I have to do is remind you that they set live up so nobody knows who is host and is random so nobody gets host every time. This is obvious and the fact that you need it spelled out is just sad. I liked the "Hate to tell you" statement. It's hilarious because Bungie DID make the rules. They designed it so you have no control who gets host and you're not even supposed to know who has it. There's a way to beat the system and get host that bungie didn't intend to have happen. Lol by your own definition you're wrong. Nice try though.

 

QUOTE

No kidding the system is messed up. My god you're stupid, we've established that about 95 times now. Just because you're too lazy to wait for host box, doesn't mean that's everybody elses problem. It isn't cheating until you prove it, so don't even try to bring that point up again.

Thanks for the putdown. Look just because you're wrong and you can't prove ME wrong you don't have to get frustrated and resort to childish putdowns. It has been proven before this debate ever came out.

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I know 4 modders who mod on Xlink. 3 of them do it simply to piss people off. So there goes your point.
I will guarantee you that in terms of a volume of games:modders in games, that XBL's ratio is better.

I'm not talking about all of Live. I'm talking about Halo2. Live's ratio in that area is worse. Every post from people here says exactly the opposite of your claim here. Until you can prove them wrong by providing evidence rather than a "I will guarantee" comment then just quit. You're wrong and you have nothing to go on but statements like that. Give it up son and go lag and rape Halo2 players and brag about your high ranking

QUOTE

Look above.

Now, considering Xlink has no matchmaking system at all, every single point you have about cheaters is now invalid. Xlink is like a poor, laggy XBL customs-only system. Except for the fact that you can't mod old maps on live, and if a modder tries to join your custom game, goodbye to him (boot).

No point is invalid due to xlink not having a matchmaking system. Sorry you struck out with this post.

QUOTE(TheIrishLad @ Sep 1 2006, 05:13 PM)

I was actually trying to be joking, notice the You could have just ignored it, but no, you have to have the last word. And if you actually remember I DID say that to you.

But I can see now that you like starting arguements with people, I guess some people get a kick out of it.

 

Some smily faces doesn't mean you can be sarcastic without anyone being able to defend theirself. Why would I have to ignore it when you directed it at me? I don't have to have the last word. For PROOF of this, refer to your post where you claimed that you were"Done". I didnt' reply at all to it because.... oh that's right. I dont' have to have the last word. I already agreed that you did say that to me. I never disputed that fact.

 

I have yet to start 1 argument with anyone. Quote me where I made the first comment to someone and started an argument in this thread. You're right though, some people must get a kick out of it. It must help their E-Ego. Maybe that's why you keep posting here.

[I Moose I]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Sep 1 2006, 06:13 PM)

Lol. The retarded part about is your statement and I quote:
No matter whether everyone will do it or not, you suggested it and that's what I was saying was silly.... your suggestion. Don't try to switch it up or take the focus off of the real point. Your suggestion was not smart. It doesn't make sense and you're just plain wrong about the whole deal. My point is and has always been that Halo2's rating system ruins the online play. No matter what kind of silly points you try to come up with will never prove otherwise. I don't have to find an article on Bungie to prove that waiting for host is cheating. All I have to do is remind you that they set live up so nobody knows who is host and is random so nobody gets host every time. This is obvious and the fact that you need it spelled out is just sad. I liked the "Hate to tell you" statement. It's hilarious because Bungie DID make the rules. They designed it so you have no control who gets host and you're not even supposed to know who has it. There's a way to beat the system and get host that bungie didn't intend to have happen. Lol by your own definition you're wrong. Nice try though.

If a team of four enters matchmaking, and there isn't another match for them, they'll get host box. It isn't random, idiot. If a team then goes into matchmaking and joins their game, they WILL NOT get host.

 

QUOTE

Thanks for the putdown. Look just because you're wrong and you can't prove ME wrong you don't have to get frustrated and resort to childish putdowns. It has been proven before this debate ever came out.
I'm not talking about all of Live. I'm talking about Halo2. Live's ratio in that area is worse. Every post from people here says exactly the opposite of your claim here. Until you can prove them wrong by providing evidence rather than a "I will guarantee" comment then just quit. You're wrong and you have nothing to go on but statements like that. Give it up son and go lag and rape Halo2 players and brag about your high ranking

That's one of the most contradicting posts I've ever read. Let's compare the lag from xlink to XBL. Hmm. I have a perfect high green connection on XBL, and lag out of every other game on xlink. Yeah, but XBL is the more laggy of the two. Seriously, if you think that, you deserve to have your balls cut off, in hope that you can't procreate in this world.
 

QUOTE

No point is invalid due to xlink not having a matchmaking system. Sorry you struck out with this post.

Wow, nice comeback genius. The point was, that Xlink doesn't even have a matchmaking system. So take that away from XBL. Now lets compare. You can't cheat in Xbox live customs, or else you'll get booted. The lag on Xlink is unbearable whether you have a good connection or not, compared to XBL where its based on who gets host, and the person's individual connection.

If you had a brain in your head, you'd realize that XBL customs system is better than Xlink in it of itself. The matchmaking system is just an added bonus.

QUOTE

Give it up son and go lag and rape Halo2 players and brag about your high ranking

I knew that's why you disliked xbox live. You got raped by legit 25's who bragged about their levels. Well, guess what, if you play with real halo players, they won't give a shit about ranks.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(I Moose I @ Sep 2 2006, 01:39 PM)

If a team of four enters matchmaking, and there isn't another match for them, they'll get host box. It isn't random, idiot. If a team then goes into matchmaking and joins their game, they WILL NOT get host.

Wow. You are doing a superb job at depicting your character. Here is exactly how it's done.

 

"Behind the scenes Halo 2's matchmaking works in a similar manner. You specify match criteria by choosing Optimatch, by choosing Quickmatch to quickly recall your last used criteria, or by changing your match settings once in a Pregame Lobby. You start the game from the lobby. Halo 2 then takes over, requesting a list of games that match your criteria from the Xbox Live servers, or sometimes deciding to create a game that fits your search criteria and advertising it to others. If you're not creating then Halo 2 evaluates the list of available games, determines the game with the best connection that best matches your match criteria, and tries to join it. If the join fails another game is chosen automatically and you again try to join it. Wash , rinse, repeat, all completely automated until a match is finally made."
Link to the whole Bungie article

Basically it IS random based on the bolded statement.

QUOTE

That's one of the most contradicting posts I've ever read. Let's compare the lag from xlink to XBL. Hmm. I have a perfect high green connection on XBL, and lag out of every other game on xlink. Yeah, but XBL is the more laggy of the two. Seriously, if you think that, you deserve to have your balls cut off, in hope that you can't procreate in this world.

Well you actually proved my point here. Since there is no matchmaking on XLink one person sets up the game and it host. Since they chose to be host and most likely don't have enough upstream everyone will lag. You say XBL is the less laggy of the two. That's because A) you always steal host or live chooses a host with enough upstream and your experience is decent. Since Xbox Live uses the same netcode for Live as it does for system link, there is no difference between the two other than who is hosting.

QUOTE

Wow, nice comeback genius. The point was, that Xlink doesn't even have a matchmaking system. So take that away from XBL. Now lets compare. You can't cheat in Xbox live customs, or else you'll get booted. The lag on Xlink is unbearable whether you have a good connection or not, compared to XBL where its based on who gets host, and the person's individual connection.

It wasn't a comeback. It was fact, lol the point you tried to make didn't make any sense and you didn't give any supporting evidence. I merely stated that you were wrong and didn't provide any supporting evidence because you didn't deserve it. You proved my point again, why cheat in customs when there is no rank to achieve? If you're going to cheat you have to be host in most cases so nobody can boot you anyways. It's just that there's no point since you want a rank. You're wrong again.

QUOTE

If you had a brain in your head, you'd realize that XBL customs system is better than Xlink in it of itself. The matchmaking system is just an added bonus.

I don't remember ever saying anything to the contrary.

QUOTE

I knew that's why you disliked xbox live. You got raped by legit 25's who bragged about their levels. Well, guess what, if you play with real halo players, they won't give a shit about ranks.

 

Where did I ever say I disliked xbox live? Where did I ever say I got raped? Your assumptions and lies and poor discussion skills are growing tiresome. You have no good points. You're simply wrong everywhere and anyone can see that. You keep throwing putdowns with no basis. I'm wondering how old you are. You're acting very immature. Why did you take a peaceful discussion to an agressive level?

[TheIrishLad]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Sep 2 2006, 07:07 PM)

Here is exactly how it's done.

"Behind the scenes Halo 2's matchmaking works in a similar manner. You specify match criteria by choosing Optimatch, by choosing Quickmatch to quickly recall your last used criteria, or by changing your match settings once in a Pregame Lobby. You start the game from the lobby. Halo 2 then takes over, requesting a list of games that match your criteria from the Xbox Live servers, or sometimes deciding to create a game that fits your search criteria and advertising it to others. If you're not creating then Halo 2 evaluates the list of available games, determines the game with the best connection that best matches your match criteria, and tries to join it. If the join fails another game is chosen automatically and you again try to join it. Wash , rinse, repeat, all completely automated until a match is finally made."
Link to the whole Bungie article

If you believe that then your a snail.  

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(TheIrishLad @ Sep 3 2006, 10:27 PM)

If you believe that then your a snail.

LOL!! Dude you can't argue with facts. That came straight from the Bungie website. I'm not a snail you ostrich.....