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[lordvader129]

#include <rant.h>

in order to understand the basis of modern organized religion (particualrly christianity) we have to look all the way back to the pagan religion of ancient rome

in rome, a temple was built to honor a god, in that temple the priest lived and worked, it was the priest and the priest alone who could communicate the thoughts and wishes of the people to the god, so it was important to keep the priest happy, people would bring offerings to the god (err, priest) in the hopes that their prayers would be heard (err, passed on to the god) if the priest didnt like you you were pretty much SOL because it meant the god didnt like you either

when theodosius  converted the roman empire to christianity he had to appease the people who feared change and feared angering thier old gods, so, in a sense, christianity was merged with the pagan religions (via doctrines written up by constantine half a century earlier) the temples still stood, there was still a priest in power, even statues of the divine remained, they were simply "rededicated" as it were to the christian god
sidenote: in the vatican i know there is at least one statue where a pope (cant remember which one right now) is portrayed as jupiter, the roman high god, and it is customary for visiters to kiss the statues big toe, as ancient romans would kiss the big toe of a statue of jupiter

i feel that christianity as a whole has been corrupted, it is as much about pagan traditions as it is about christian ones



the bible defines a "priest" as one who has direct access to god, he can communicate with god, the rest of the people cant and have to communicate through him

the bible also defines christianity as "a nation of priests" menaing we ALL are priests, it then follows that we all have direct access and can cummunicate with god, hence there is no need for a specific "priest" (or father or minister or reverend or bishop or cardinal or pope or anything)

in the bible, a church or "congration" is shown to more closely resemble what people would call a bible study these days, a group of people gathering at someones home to sit and discuss openly the teaching of bible, the idea of church as a building and as a service attended to hear a sermon was a purely roman invention

we all know the cliche "preaching to the choir" shouldnt "preaching to the congregation" fall into the same catagory?



ill fill this out with more quotes and examples form the bible when i get home, ill probably patch up on roman history to show the transitions better as well

[puckSR]

The statue to which you are referring is the statue of St. Peter.  This, from what i have read, is a true account of the situation, however, i dont see that the church publicly condones this act.

Christianity is heavily based on "pagan" traditions.  I understand how upset you are with the entire situation, but please understand that if you tried to get to the original roots of any religion you would find yourself in quite a quagmire.

A few "pagan" inheritences in Christianity

Satan
Christmas
Easter
Philosophy
morality
The flood story
St. Paul-he was roman(and his influence can be seen)
Divinity of Jesus-Decided by Constantine, a freshly converted pagan

Of course, this would be expected if you thought of religion as an evolutionary progress.
(*not biological evolution, dont even bring up the Theory of Evolution*)
This of course would imply that religion was more solidly based on man than on a God, which offends most people.  It must be remembered however, that all of our knowledge of God and Jesus is based on the writings of man.  The people of other beliefs frequently had equal or greater proof for the existence of their god or gods.  

Your realization does however strike a chord with many, as did Martin Luther.  The problem that Martin Luther discovered relatively quickly, is that if you abandon all things of alien origin in a religion, you often wind up with no real solid religion at all.

Take, for example, the Protestant Christians.  They have over 100 different beliefs between them, and a relatively small number of open minded wise men in their religious circles.  A perfect example of this is the rise of fundamentalism, especially the fundamentalist interpretation of Revelations.  The book of the Apocalypse barely made the modern bible.  Early Christian councils were worried about including it because, "it may later be intreperted literally, instead of metaphorically".(to paraphrase many documents of the council).  The Catholics, for example, who have an excellent sense of history are well aware of the situation, but many of the fundamentalist are not.  Many fundamentalists are not even aware of how the books and letters of the New Testament were selected.  Besides, do you know how ludicrous it is to take literally and completely out of context the words of translation of a translation of a translation?

Generally, the Catholic church has some quirks, such as the Pope, and the heirarchy, and some strange traditions that they maintain; however, they are normally much more knowledgeble than protestant minister.  Did you know, for example, that a Catholic priest has to earn at least a bachelor's (normally in Theology or Philosophy) at an accredited University before he may apply for seminarian training. **This is not a rule, but a general guideline.  


All in all, religion is normally not as straightforward as one would like, but it engages man in the constant question of the superior being.  The problem is that all religions do that, and as Christians are fond of saying "Its all about faith"
I guess they are the only ones who have faith

[bluedeath]

Thanks for the sermon

[puckSR]

It was actually more of a history lesson

[lordvader129]

QUOTE

Satan

formerly lucifer, most beautiful of all angels, cast down from heaven after inciting a rebellion to overthrow god
origin: judaism

the horned an hoofed modern image of satan is indeed derived from pagan images though, hes shown resembling a centaur of greek mythology, which is a pagan influence that people who call themselves christians shouldnt buy into

QUOTE

Christmas

i can see this one, as it falls awefully close to the winter solstice, however the idea behind the christian holiday is not celebrating the soltice but rather the birth of christ, but this in fact supports my claims that modern christianity is too close to paganism, the brith of jesus was never celebrated during his life, it shouldnt be celebrated after

QUOTE

Easter

same as above, very close to spring equinox, the idea behind it was to link the the hebrew celebration of passover to the christian faith, but the pope has messed that one up by basing the date of easter on a solar calender instead of the same lunar calender passover is scheduled by

QUOTE

Philosophy

so because the first recreational thinkers happened to be pagan all philosophy is pagan?

QUOTE

morality

same as above

QUOTE

The flood story

this is an interesting one, the general explanation is the followers of the pagan religions just happened to witness the same events recorded in the bible (why they werent destroyed by tthe flood that was supposed to destroy all mankind is anyones guess)

QUOTE

St. Paul-he was roman(and his influence can be seen)

roman by birth, hebrew by faith (later converting to christianity) the whole point of converting is to abandon your old faith as you no longer see it as right, paul (saul) didnt abandon all of his hebrew traditions as christianity was an evolution of judaism and the two faiths were always meant to be linked (as they were gods 2 'chosen" peoples)

QUOTE

Divinity of Jesus-Decided by Constantine, a freshly converted pagan

constantine didnt "decide" jesus was divine, he just came to realize it upon his conversion, then assembled christian leaders to write out the doctrines of christianity, in which he inserted many of his old pagan traditions (see above) which is the whole thing im ranting about


people view constantines doctrine of christianity as "true" christianity because its one of the oldest and most publicized writings on the subject, but early christians had much different traditions, there isnt much evidence of them however since they were persecuted so much

[deftonesmx17]

To answer your question, Organized Religion is bad.

The funny thing about Christmas, is that Jesus was not born in December. Societies Chistmas makes me sick, as does Organized Christian Christmas. To me I only hold this holiday as a time in which I spend with those closest to me, my family. If you want to celebrate the life or your God, you should not need a set day.

Satan, if someone really thinks he has horns and hoofs, they need help. Although today the normal person would think such a thing. The real funny part is how far off-base anyone who thinks that is. Satan is the master of deception. Would someone who wants to deceive you, look as if they are evil?

[lordvader129]

QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Oct 21 2005, 02:41 PM)

Would someone who wants to deceive you, look as if they are evil?

it can be argued that the prevalence of this imagery is satans own doing,people expect him to look like this
(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/nl/1/1d/Satan.jpg)

so when he appears to them looking more like this
(IMG:http://www.chipy.net/povezave/Lamai/Angel_Gabriel_.jpg)
they think it must be from god, but it isnt

This post has been edited by lordvader129: Oct 21 2005, 09:03 PM

[puckSR]

*****SATAN***************

Christians trace satan back to judaism, but his roots go further back then that.   The modern concept of Satan mostly comes from Islam.  The horns and stuff, that is the incorporation of many different popular beliefs.  Almost all forms of mythology have a mischevious figure.  i.e. Puck, Loki.... the list goes on

The term hell is actually directly from the Norse word for the afterlife.  The concept of Satan as the ruler of Heaven and Hell is taken from Greek/Roman mythology.  The bible isnt the end all however.  Even in the bible, the term Hades is used to refer to the afterlife.  This isnt a typo, but the actual correct translation of the text

********Christmas***************
The birth of Jesus was most definately not in december
The entire holiday was created to combat winter solistice in pagan cultures.
There are many who would propose that this entire early portion of the bible was already a myth.  Often the origins of important figures in history are clouded with myths about their childhood.  Washington chopped down a cherry tree, Lincoln walked 20 miles to return a book(and only to return a book).

******Philosophy***************
If early Christians had engaged in a completely different form of philosophy than the greeks or romans.  They did not do this, and instead continued the traditions of their forefathers.  Arguments were made in the same style, and logical reasoning was used.
Early Christian philosophers such as St Thomas Aquinas were strong followers of the classical greek thinkers.  

***********The Flood********************
The bible was not written in the time of Noah, if it had been, Noah would have had to have written, either him or one of his children.  Floods have always been devastating natural phenomenom.  The strike quickly, and can be rather deadly.  Most cultures have some story about the destructive nature of floods, and most of these stories  highlight the small survival rate.  The similarities end at this point, and all of the stories change.  An interesting note, if it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, and lets assume to flood the earth to some degree you would need at least 2500 ft raise in the sea level, then they would have gotten 62.5 ft of rain a day or over 2.5 ft per hour.  This is assuming that not everything was flooded, only low lying areas near the water.  Besides the fact that sheets of water and not rain would have to come down, there are older flood myths or stories than Noah's

*******Paul***********
Paul was important to the early church because he made Christianity accesible to gentiles.  He was well aware of the cultural differences and that may be why he is responsible for many of the abandoment of traditional Jewish practices.
We may work on Sunday
We may eat pork and other unclean meats
etc

This post has been edited by puckSR: Oct 21 2005, 09:25 PM

[lordvader129]

QUOTE

RE: Satan

in proper christian beliefs satan isnt the ruler of "hell" (in quotes because i dont use the term in a religious sense, i dont believe the bible ever uses it either, to me the correct term is "lake of fire") he isnt even there yet, he rules on earth right now, he will be cast into the lake of fire upon the return of christ

the term hades is literal translation, in fact possibly not a translation at all, as the gospels were written in greek, and since jesus spoke arameic (sp?) its automatically flawed, since not everything will translate properly

personally i feel all new testament writing are flawed as they are subject to the fallacy of man, i believe that when jesus ascended to heaven after the resurrection neither he nor god exert any influence on this world, therefore, to me, the argument that "god wouldnt let the bible get corrupted" is inacurate, we are compeltely under the control of satan until the second coming, this is why people who practice magic (white and black) have more power than christians, in essence, christianity is more of a "faith" than more people realize

as for satan coming from islam, islam came from judaism as well (ironic considering the turmoil in the middle east, the two faiths are "borhters" in a way) the angel gabriel appeared to muhamed and dictated the quran to him...of course that probably causes hebrews to see muslims as heretics

QUOTE

RE: christmas

i know jesus wasnt born in december, but again, as i said earlier, his birth was not celebrated during his life, and should be celebrated after his death, christmas is a "modern" invention, which, as you say, was to combat celebrations of the winter solstice and ease the transition to christianity, for people raised christian it should serve no purpose

QUOTE

RE: philosophy

personally ive always held philosophy and theology at arms length apart, but most christian philosophers came about long after what i percieve to be the corruption of the faith, even your "early" christian St Thomas Aquinas lived almost 1000 years after constantine bastardized the doctrines

QUOTE

RE: flood

yeah, i pretty much conceded this one in my last post, but then again its place int he christian faith is a throwback to the hebrew faith, whcih also had countless ties to paganism probably for the same reasons christianity does now, to ease a transition

QUOTE

RE: paul

not sure where i stand on this one, never researched it much

QUOTE

sidenote:

the sabbath that you dont work on is saturday (7th day, day of rest, hebrew sabbath) sunday is the christian sabbath (resurrection) and it doesnt say you cant work, again, a throwback to older religions to ease a transition

QUOTE

RE: my beliefs

i have some crazy convoluted beliefs that i have never referred to as christianity, although i share many tenets with christianity, notably he most basic (and most cliched) tenet in john 3:16 i have been told by many i am going to lake of fire for my beliefs and they are probably right, i just think its funny because most of them will be there for the same reasons







PS i wonder how long this debate can stay intellectual before someone starts hurling personal insults, lol

[pug_ster]

Organized Religion is always a double edged sword.  You have devoted Christians, Muslims, and Jews devoted in the common good, trying to contribute to society in the name of their God.

On the other hand, Organized Religion is bad is when it is used for exploiting other people, are told that they are better than non-believers, or used an excuse to kill other innocent people.

You have Christians who used the bible to justify slavery, Muslims justifying jihad to kill innocent people, Radical Jews justify killing Palestians is right, and you have George Bush telling other people to vote for him because he is a 'devot' Christian.  Don't forget those splinter religion like Church of Seventh Day Adventists that justify their leader David Koresh as god himself.

This post has been edited by pug_ster: Oct 21 2005, 11:06 PM

[ClintiePoo]

I'll try to be short:

Hebrews 10:25 says that we should not forsake assembling together.  Therefore the bible encourages organized religion.

The bible also encourages us to follow it.  If these religions deviate from the bible, they are wrong and therefore not of God.  Organized bastardization of the bible is bad.

[RLLMoFP]

IMHO organized religion is a bad idea.

God (what ever God is) does not speak to us, does not command us to perform or conform, does not whisper in our ears as we write 'his words to paper'. No book ever written was either dictated by or addressed by God. It is the philosophical opinions of men, and to suggest that Gods influence drove anyone to do anything is simply grandiose blustering.

Religions set people apart. People should not create additional barriers between themselves, when there are far to many barriers dividing us already.

If God created us, then it created us over a period of billions of years. All the while seemingly not caring if we worshiped it or not. God does not command the deer to bow to it every morning and night, does not command the fish to build great temples in it's honor, does not chide the wolf for it's choice of dinner.

If God exists (and it is possible, it is a vast and overwhelming universe) then so be it. Until God makes an appearance on national news and tells the entire world how it wants things done, I am content to live my life behaving as a rational and considerate human being without fear of repercussion. As stated by Allan W Janssen in his book: The Plain Truth About God-101, its time for the human race to grow up and start treating each other with dignity, regardless of the social, geographical or racial differences.

Using God as an excuse for your behavior is wrong and religions fuel that behavior, whether deliberate or not.

[puckSR]

The aforementioned view is known as Deism

The common question of the Deist is that if God chooses to intervene in our lives, what is stopping him from coming down and making his voice heard?

The common christian response is that God only intervenes in our lives indirectly.  This is challenged by many of the actions of God in the old Testament.

The second common response of Christians is that God wants us to believe in him without direct proof.  The idea being that if you can do this then you really have faith.  The flaw with this reasoning is that either God has never directly intervened, and therefore we honestly dont know who he is, or that God is the God of the Bible, in which case he did intervene directly, and therefore he should have no problem showing up in Colorado.

Referring back to the sabbath, Christians keep neither day holy(at least in the Jewish sense of the word), and Christians do not follow traditional Christian laws.

[lordvader129]

QUOTE(ClintiePoo @ Oct 21 2005, 05:20 PM)

Hebrews 10:25 says that we should not forsake assembling together.  Therefore the bible encourages organized religion.

i think thats a loose argument at best, assembling together doesnt necessarily entail everything in organized religion, like in my first post imake the point that the bible promotes a society of euqals who convene to openly discuss the bible and different points of veiw this is certainly assembling together but is in no way my definiton of "organized religion"

just for grins next time your pastor is up giving a sermon raise your hand and disagree with him on some point, see what happens, lol



to god intervening or not, god intervened in the lives of the hebrews, not the christians, the coming of the messiah and the advent of christianity brought about a change is the order of the universe THIS is when people were given complete free will in their own lives (before god would destroy those who didnt follow) and salvation came by grace not by race, ANYONE, not just those of hebrew descent, could join the kingdom of god, this also the time when dominion over the earth was given to satan, thats why god doesnt intervene anymore, satan is in control, and the christian faith is that when god has had enough he'll come back and smack satan around a bit

[puckSR]

If God intervened so much before the coming of Jesus, why didnt he attack people of alternate beliefs?  
OR i guess your saying that before Jesus God didnt give a flying fuck about anyone else.  If this is the case, why did he suddenly decide after thousands of years and many "lost" souls to allow everyone who was good into heaven?  Why also did God allow the rift between the Hebrews and the Samaritans?