Post by: Clockface on November 14, 2012, 04:14:00 PM
On the other hand, I still use my N64, as well as Surreal, as Surreal sadly has some real problems with incompatibilities and glitches in some games (I'm certainly not knocking Surreal, it's a great emulator and well worth having, it's just that a combination of the N64's high system requirements and lack of component documentation mean that N64 emulation on the XBox isn't perfect). Surreal just can't replace the N64, at least not at the moment.
So what emulators do you think are as good as, or better, than the real consoles, and what do you think are lacking? I know for example that there's been some discussion about the exact pixel shape/size generated by the SNES - do you notice any differences with games when using ZsnexBox/SNES9Xbox/XSnes9x or a real SNES?
For me, the emulation of ZX Spectrum/C64/Megadrive/MAME, and SNES are all so good that to me they're as good as the real machines (though of course I'd love some real arcade machines!). I can't comment on most of the others, as I've never tried them.
Post by: hcf on November 14, 2012, 04:52:00 PM
Post by: FattestBuddha on November 14, 2012, 05:21:00 PM
Post by: madmab on November 14, 2012, 11:32:00 PM
This includes things such as Saturn, 3d0, and Jaguar.
However that being said when it comes to the consoles Surreal and Pcsxbox are heads above their contemporaries. One exception I will not is the POPS emulator on the PSP (made by Sony themselves) is top notch as well.
Post by: Clockface on November 15, 2012, 05:42:00 PM
QUOTE(FattestBuddha @ Nov 15 2012, 02:21 AM) 
The one great thing about surreal is that the games play in a much better resolution than on the original console. I have an n64 and it looks terrible on my 40" HD TV. But on the xbox it looks fine. I think select games like Star Fox 64, super Mario 64 actually surpass the n64 versions. Not to mention n64 has one of the worst analog sticks I've ever used. So it's another improvement over the original system. One thing I wish the xbox controller had was a better d-pad I could use for snes, nes or genesis. Anyone know of a controller better suited for 2D gaming?
Yes, some of the games look much sharper on emulator, whereas, as you say, the N64 can look bad on modern TVs. The other great thing about Surreal is that you can save/load snapshots anywhere, which is great for games like Turok 2, which has save points miles apart.
I don't use the N64 joypad on my N64, I use the Makopad 64, which is great, well laid out (much better than the official joypad), and has a metal analogue stick, which, after about fourteen years of *heavy* abuse from me is still as responsive as ever. I really can't recommend the Makopad 64 enough (I recommend it to anyone who complains about the official joypad).
http://pcgamesplus.c...controller.html
The Makopad 64 also comes in black, and is called the Superpad 64. Beware that there are two N64 gamepads called the Superpad 64, the one you want (if you want one) is the two pronged one:
http://s9.zetaboards.../7186633/1/#new
QUOTE(madmab @ Nov 15 2012, 08:32 AM)
Pretty much anything from the N64/PSX generation and later are gonna be kinda iffy.
This includes things such as Saturn, 3d0, and Jaguar.
Yes, I can understand how the XBox's relatively limited resources can be insufficient for the 32/64 bit machines (and to be fair, I'm just very glad we have such superb emulators for the 8 and 16 bit machines - the fact that we can emulate some games from the N64/PSX/etc too on the XBox is simply a very nice bonus!), but to go off on a tangent, how well emulated are the Playstation/Saturn/Jaguar etc on the PC? The only one I've tried (repeatedly!) is N64 emulation, and as great as project 64/1964/Muppen(Plus) are, they can't emulate well enough to replace a real N64, even with the relatively huge power of the PC. Are PC emulators of the Playstation, Saturn, etc beset by the same problems, are are those emulators as good as the SNES/Megadrive/Spectrum/etc emulators?
One very sore point for me is that my TV won't display all games on my N64. Thankfully all of my favourite N64 games seem to be un-effected, but some games just make my TV go all black and unresponsive (and it's not the N64, as the same games work fine with the same N64 and the other, older, TV in the house). This TV (that can't display some N64 screen modes) is the best TV I've ever had, beautiful picture, all of the ports and options you could want, etc, but in typical real-life fashion, it's two steps forward and half a step backwards. My PC is plugged into the TV and works fine (as do all my other consoles, none of which are as old as the N64), and the N64 emulators display all modes just fine, but of course the emulators have other problems, sadly, or I'd use the emulators rather than my N64.
Post by: madmab on November 16, 2012, 12:00:00 AM
As for overall compatibility itself on PC emulators of the above mentioned systems. I couldn't say. I never really messed with them enough to determine and I'm not really familar enough with said systems to be able to say. However PS1 emulation is quite nice.
Post by: hcf on November 16, 2012, 06:54:00 AM
If you compare the PC version of Virtual Jaguar and the Xbox version, you will see that the compatibility of the PC version is much higher because it uses a newer core (v2.2) while the Xbox version uses the v1.0.5 core. So, there are games that the Xbox cannot run, but the PC version runs (for example, Attack of the Mutant Penguins). But porting a most modern version was not possible, because v1.0.6 versions and later required OpenGL (which is still not supported in Xbox) so I had to port the v1.0.5 one. Besides, I tried to add to the code some things of the later cores, but the performance of the emulator was very worse, so the final release of Virtual JaguarX was based in the v1.0.5 version, with some adds from later versions that did not have a huge impact in the performance.
Also, if you compare it with other PC emulators (like Project Tempest) the compatibility is worse in Xbox too, but porting Project Tempest was not possible. The case of the Jaguar emulator in Xbox is special because it is a port of an old version, so the compatibility in Xbox is worse than in PC. Of course, if you compare the old v1.0.5 version for PC and the Xbox Virtual JaguarX, things change, and the compatibility of the Xbox version is even better, due to the "adds" that I grabbed from later versions to improve the compatibility.
Post by: Clockface on November 17, 2012, 01:40:00 PM
QUOTE(hcf @ Nov 16 2012, 03:54 PM)
I can add a small point related to comparing the emulation between the PC version and Xbox version of the Atari Jaguar...
Thanks for that, it's very interesting (and I do think it's a pity more programmers don't appear on any forums for the users to ask questions of). I've never used a Jaguar sadly, but I know it has a small but very loyal following, and I will get around to trying the XBox emulator (I much prefer console gaming to PC, and having all of the emulators on the XBox is fantastic), especially for the games that I've heard recommended for it, such as Alien vs. Predator, Tempest 2000, Cyber Morph, etc. How do these games perform on the XBox emulator, please? And how well can the XBox's joypad simulate the Jaguars, as I think I heard that the Jaguar had a lot of buttons on it's joypad?
What are the best games on the Jaguar, would you say, especially ones worth playing via the XBox emulator?
Post by: hcf on November 17, 2012, 05:42:00 PM
I use to read posts from some of them sometimes here, but this time the post of Madmab said all that can be said, so I guess that nobody had anything to add. I only added the information of the particular case of the Jag, as it was different (port of an old version).The status of the Jaguar emulator nowadays is not marvelous... I began the port keeping in mind the following idea: "ok, at the moment we don't have any Jaguar emulator, so anything that we achieved, will be better than nothing". First of all, you must know that the emulation of the sound makes everything go slow, so I added the following options: play with no sound, play with real sound, play with overclocked sound (x2, x3 or x4). Then:
1) If you choose playing with NO sound, you can play at fullspeed (with no frameskip) to some games: Rayman, Zool 2, Sensible Soccer, Cannon Fodder, Flashback, Pinball Fantasies and a few more. Other games go slow, and other games don't work.
2) If you play with real sound, everything go slow, so you must use frameskip. For example, Cannon Fodder with real sound needs Frameskip. But as you know, if you use frameskip, the animation looks a bit worse.
3) The other option is using overclocked sound. Overclocked sound plays sound at a good speed, but at low quality. For example, Cannon Fodder can be played with overclocked sound x3 at full speed, and with no frameskip. The SFX sound near perfect, but the songs sound bad. As the gameplay of this game has only SFX (argh, bomb, bang...), I think that it is a good idea to use overclocked sound with it.
What is the best option? It is subjective... For example, I prefer to play Cannon Fodder with overclocked sound: it plays well and at full speed, although the sound is not good. Other people prefer the second option to have good audio (and bad animation) and other people prefer playing with no sound.
Recommended games that play well in this emulator: Rayman!!! Plays very well (I prefer without sound) and it's a very good game. Some people reported that the savegames don't work, but it's not totally true: the savegames work if you exit of the game properly (with START+BACK) but if you turn off the console, the game is not saved. Other very good games that work well without sound are Zool 2, Flashback or Sensible Soccer. Cannon Fodder plays well with overclocked sound x3, the same that Pinball Fantasies (other good game!).
Finally, as you asked by the most famous games: Alien vs Predator can be played at full speed if you select no sound and Frameskip 1 (it looks very well). Maybe overclocked sound can work too, I don't remember. The gameplay is good but it has a very bad bug: the map is not shown properly when you select it, so it is very difficult to advance in the game. But if you don't need map (maybe if you have it printed in paper) or if you simply want to run and shoot aliens, you can enjoy it.
Cyber Morph does not work, and Tempest 2000 works but it runs very slow even without sound. So, if you want to play Tempest 2000 you have to select "no sound" and besides a big frameskip
Finally, the emulation of the joypad: Virtual JaguarX emulates the directional pad (with the joystick), the A-B-C buttons of the jag (with the A-B-X buttons) and the numerical pad of the jag too (using the buttons Y, white, black, triggers, and every direction of the Xbox dpad). The only buttons that are not emulated at the moment are the * and # buttons, but they are almost not used in real games.
If you finally decide to test Virtual JaguarX, please keep in mind what Madmab said: the Jaguar is a console of the 32/64bit generation, and the Xbox is having a hard time trying to emulate it, so don't expect a perfect emulation like the one that we have in the emulators of the 8-16 bit era...
Post by: Clockface on November 18, 2012, 06:07:00 PM
Post by: hcf on November 19, 2012, 05:30:00 AM
QUOTE(Clockface @ Nov 19 2012, 02:07 AM)
it looks like no other console will ever be as good in that regard, as newer consoles get ever better protected against homebrew software, and of course the XBox had the advantage of it's PC-like architecture which (so I understand) helps when porting software.
I think the same... Other consoles will be able to have good emulators in the future, but the Xbox scene has got accumulated years of work of excellent developers (from the years of Xport or Lantus, to the most recent gurus like Madmab, Freakdave, Hyper_Eye, weinerschnitzel...). So, if any other console wants to achieve this level of emulation quality, it will also need years of work made for super-talented coders. So... long life Xbox!
Post by: Ash123 on November 24, 2012, 04:41:00 PM
http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=732937
Post by: kimota2004 on November 25, 2012, 06:41:00 AM
One of the things that stops the emulation on Xbox from looking indistinguishable from the real hardware is the lack of a native 240p mode which is one of the main reasons I emulate NES/SNES/MS/MD/PCE on the Wii these days. I'm pretty old skool I guess because I don't play retro on a HDTV, cannot stand it in actual fact. Nothing can come close to 240p via RGB on a good CRT TV. There are ways for the Xbox to display a 240p image such as scan converters like the Extron Emotia but these are rare and cost so much money.
The best thing about the Xbox for me is the Commodore C64/Amiga emulation, it really is as good as it gets without hooking up the actual computers and in many ways it's so much more convenient. The arcade emulation is the other major plus for me, I use a Magic Box to connect my Sega Saturn mk2 controller and it's perfect for the shmups and fighters or any arcade game in general.
So the Xbox still holds it's own in 2012 as one of the best consoles ever for emulation but the Wii really does have some fantastic emulators of it's own, Genplus GX as an example being one of the most authentic Mega Drive emus I've ever used.