Post by: Pulsemasta on January 10, 2010, 02:40:00 AM
Do you think with the few people we have remaining interested in the scene we may be able to form some kind of campaign to raise Xbox awareness to those who don't really know what the xbox is capable of? I say this after realizing a lot of people never had a Xbox because it was "all about PS2" and every who I tell about the capability of the machine are astounded at what it can do.
I was thinking maybe a website, If we had a website, myself (and I'm sure others) could offer a free modding service under the umbrella of installing Linux on their Xbox's (to avoid any legal issues, although I don't think M$ cares at this point) and in that process we could point people in the direction of this site, and Xbins.
The main reason I put this in the "emulators" section is because while I was reading through the forums I saw that "pay $ for port" is not allowed, although a "contest" may be allowed granted the moderators approve. I would donate to the pot for certain ports (IE FreeDo, yabause). I would even go as far as buying a trophy! (Which I did for a freestyle battle I hosted at my 21st B-Day party...just saying I'm serious about the trophy!) It's a pretty good idea to create healthy competition between porters/coders and word spreads fast when there is competition, and reward (even if the reward isn't more than a trophy and bragging rights"
I would love to get anyone's feedback on this topic.
Post by: Bomb Bloke on January 10, 2010, 05:26:00 AM
I also think you'll find that it'd take a serious cash offer to convince someone to code something for the X-Box if they aren't already willing to do it for free. Remember we're talking about a console that's no longer in production, at a time when the current generation of consoles is open for ports/homebrew - most people using the old systems are those too cheap to shell out for something new, or they've already put in enough time/effort that they don't want to move on.
Then there's the matter that in order to port something in such a way that it'd be "decent", it would be all but essential to flog off with code from existing projects - for example, I reckon most folks would prefer to see ports wrapped up with X-Port's interface, or something fairly close to it. Offering cash makes the use of such code dubious, not just because it could offend guys like X-Port, but because it could offend the authors of the actual code to be ported.
(Note that in the case of FreeDO, only the original authors can port it anyway - it's closed source).
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 10, 2010, 05:43:00 AM
QUOTE(Bomb Bloke @ Jan 10 2010, 01:26 PM) 
I'm not sure a secondary website would be of any value; in order to direct any traffic here, it'd need advertising of it's own, and surely such adverts could point here directly?
I also think you'll find that it'd take a serious cash offer to convince someone to code something for the X-Box if they aren't already willing to do it for free. Remember we're talking about a console that's no longer in production, at a time when the current generation of consoles is open for ports/homebrew - most people using the old systems are those too cheap to shell out for something new, or they've already put in enough time/effort that they don't want to move on.
Then there's the matter that in order to port something in such a way that it'd be "decent", it would be all but essential to flog off with code from existing projects - for example, I reckon most folks would prefer to see ports wrapped up with X-Port's interface, or something fairly close to it. Offering cash makes the use of such code dubious, not just because it could offend guys like X-Port, but because it could offend the authors of the actual code to be ported.
(Note that in the case of FreeDO, only the original authors can port it anyway - it's closed source).
I wouldn't say that the Nex-Gen consoles are at such a level as the XBOX though. I think as far as having all your emulators/music/video/pictures/ and less importantly XBOX games in one spot, the XBOX is still number 1 in that regard. The Wii is really the only "next gen" console with potential, and it is really just the potential of the Gamecube reworked.
as far as offending people... if it were a "contest" open to any programmer, then why would Xport be offended seeing as he himself would be eligible to attempt to achieve the goal of the project?
It comes down to the fact that like you said, its a old system. The reason for any contest reward is just an attempt to keep the scene from losing all new development, which I'm sure will happen very soon. The people who wrote the code for the emu's that are out there now have probably long forgotten/lost interest in the subject all together. Point being, I don't think Xport would lose any sleep over someone using his code to improve upon a port, even if they won a reward of some kind.
Post by: Likklebaer on January 10, 2010, 10:55:00 AM
So I'm afraid your idea simply wouldn't work.
Post by: ressurectionx on January 10, 2010, 11:55:00 AM
You're heart's in the right place man. I'd love to find a way to attract more attention here and get the scene moving again. There truly isn't a better way to emulate home console games in my opinion.
Post by: VampX on January 10, 2010, 12:58:00 PM
with sections that show pictures and youtube clips of emulators and gaming and hacks in action.
something like WWW.HACKEDXBOX.ORG
Kinda like a business card but in web form.
but I think the best thing that would get this scene going again is a legal XDK.
All we have now is word of mouth, so make sure to tell everybody you meet about why a modded xbox is the best choice.
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 10, 2010, 04:25:00 PM
Do you all really think that Microsoft would care about the Xbox 1 XDK being used anyway, at this point. The Xbox is essentially abandoned ware. They just called it a loss and moved on. I think if the Xbox couldnt of run copys of retail games M$ wouldnt of been to concerned about the SDK leaking because are they really losing anything if someone runs ZSNES on the box? they still had to buy the hardware.
A Dev team would be a great idea... I am going to school for programming but this semester will be my first programming language course, and its Visual Basic, which I don't think would help with this topic (though I'm not sure).... but I guess in like a year or so if no one else wants to do it I will start a Dev Team, after I take C++..... but what would be nicer is if in a year or so I could join a Dev team....
we have to get it done before 2012 though ;-)
Post by: Bomb Bloke on January 10, 2010, 08:23:00 PM
QUOTE(Pulsemasta @ Jan 11 2010, 07:25 AM)
So when Xbins says they only host open source programs, they are saying that in a very loose sense of the term then? Because say ZSNES is open source, the XBE that runs it is not because it was made in the Microsoft XDK?
"Open source" means that anyone can read (and modify) the source code if they wish to. Windows, for example, is closed source (the fact that it's been illegally leaked on occasion doesn't change that status): and you can't compile your own version of it if you can't get at the source. If there's a bug, it's very difficult for anyone other then Microsoft to fix it, and as Microsoft only licenses their software to those who pay for it, you can't legally get copies for free.
(Though other closed-source programs, such as FreeDO, are available in compiled form free of charge).
Unix based operating systems, on the other hand, are open source (as is a lot of free software): People can customise it to their heart's content. Sometimes such "unofficial" patches become a part of the official branch. But obviously it's a lot harder to sell such software as this, because anyone can legally get it for free.
(Though other open-sourced programs, such as the iPhone port of OpenTyrian, are available for sale).
The compiler has nothing to do with whether the source is open or not. Source code intended for use with the XDK is entirely legal, and can either be open or closed, depending on the choice of the author.
The reason why code that's been processed by the XDK is not legal is because Microsoft refuses to license out the compiler itself (except to X-Box game developers, but they no longer exist, and they weren't allowed to use it for general purposes (eg homebrew) anyway). Therefore, any homebrew compiled by the XDK must've been processed illegally - and much of the code that ends up in the XBE is copyrighted to Microsoft.
(Frankly though, the X-Box homebrew scene went far beyond that of other systems at the time, and the XDK can probably be thanked for that - though not legal, it beat the tools other people were using hands down. That, and X-Box coders seemed to be a lot more willing to share their source).
QUOTE(Pulsemasta @ Jan 11 2010, 07:25 AM)
I am going to school for programming but this semester will be my first programming language course, and its Visual Basic, which I don't think would help with this topic (though I'm not sure)....
Visual Basic is... not a good choice, assuming there are other options available to you. It's a fairly simple language to learn compared to some, and you'll pick up some "universal basics" about programming from it, but you'll have to un-learn a lot of VB when it comes time pick up a "real" language.
It certainly won't help you with X-Box coding. VB code runs under Windows, and pretty much nothing else.
Nevertheless, knowing some of any language will dramatically increase your ability to get work done on a PC (as I'm sure RessX will attest to
).
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 10, 2010, 08:49:00 PM
Edit by BB: Accidentally hit the "edit" button instead of "reply". Apologies!
Post by: Bomb Bloke on January 10, 2010, 09:45:00 PM
).QUOTE(Bomb Bloke @ Jan 11 2010, 04:23 AM)
So most of the stuff on Xbins would be "illigal" then, in the eyes of Microsoft. Assuming most quality apps were created with the real XDK?
Very little X-Box software was compiled with anything other then the XDK. I know of only one OpenXDK-produced tool that sees common use today (a small "shortcut" that, when executed, simply executes some other XBE in turn - nothing complex).
Nearly all hacked BIOSes (eg, the EvoX and Xecutor series) are in much the same boat: They take code from Microsoft's original, copyrighted models.
The exception would be all the stuff over here.
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 10, 2010, 09:51:00 PM
QUOTE(Bomb Bloke @ Jan 11 2010, 05:45 AM)
Cynical as I am about the X-Box scene ever "reviving", regarding the idea of an "advertising and how-to" website, I tried to set up something along those lines over here. Never really got far with it (on the rare occasion when I do add a page, it tends to cover technical matters, and it'll be a long time before writing any real guides or descriptions of emulators and the like), but I do still intend to continue work on it (and obviously any help would be welcomed
).Very little X-Box software was compiled with anything other then the XDK. I know of only one OpenXDK-produced tool that sees common use today (a small "shortcut" that, when executed, simply executes some other XBE in turn - nothing complex).
Nearly all hacked BIOSes (eg, the EvoX and Xecutor series) are in much the same boat: They take code from Microsoft's original, copyrighted models.
The exception would be all the stuff over here.
I will revive it, in 2-4 years! haha
So IF someone made a website and it hosted XBE's for like ZSNExbox would it get shut down? or could you get fined for having that file on your site?
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 16, 2010, 05:22:00 AM
QUOTE(hcf @ Jan 16 2010, 01:05 PM)
I was thinking about your desire of reviving the Xbox scene... Well, it woul be wonderfull, so I was thinking about what would be the best way to do that.
In my opinion, finding an important system not emulated yet in the Xbox and... emulate it! This is very difficult, but as you said in another thread, it would be possible for example with the release of the code of Freedo.
But there is another way to resurrect the Xbox scene! When PCs were powerful enough to run Xbox emulators (in other word, when we had Xbox emulators in our computers) I guess that the Xbox scene will resurrect. Some programmers (I am an example) have not developed anything for the Xbox because we cannot test what we are developing... and this is terrible. You know: if I am programming an Xbox game, the only way to test and debug it, is burning a CD (or saving it in a pendrive) and go to the Xbox to test it... and when you detect the error, go to the computer... and over and over again. Having a Xbox emulator for PC will make very easy to develop games for the Xbox.
For example, I have developed some games for the PC Engine. This is very easy, because I can program the game in a PC, and debug and test it in an emulator in the same PC. Having an Xbox emulator will make things easier.
So, maybe your desire of reviving the scene in 2-4 years is possible, because maybe computers in 2-4 years will be powerfull enough to emulate an Xbox
well... you can actually have the same set up as Xbox developers with the Xbox... which is something most systems never had, or will ever have. You can flash the Debug Bios, or just install the debug dash with a retail box ... and then Microsoft Visual Studio sends the debug files to the Xbox when you build them.... its pretty seamless... so I don't think its a matter of having it on your PC because as of now all you have to do is buy a $40 Xbox and you have a Dev kit.
Post by: Bomb Bloke on January 16, 2010, 05:58:00 PM
Any box can be made to act as a debug system, though ideally the system would have 128mb RAM. "True" debug systems also have a serial interface, but I'm not even sure what that's for.
In short, using an emulator for development purposes would be a step backwards, especially since the odds of an "accurate" emulator appearing are slight. For example, there still exists no "perfect" N64/PSX emulator - half the reason certain ROMs don't run on the X-Box is because they don't work when emulated on a PC, either!
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 16, 2010, 07:54:00 PM
they do look cool though
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 18, 2010, 04:10:00 AM
QUOTE(hcf @ Jan 18 2010, 11:26 AM)
Well, I think that you all are right, although there are strange cases like me who need that emulator to program Xbox games. For example, people who don't have space in their house for a second Xbox or a debug environment, people who use to program games in the office when they have free time (I know a couple of them, and obviously they cannot connect a Xbox to the PC of their offices!!), and people like me, who would be killed by his wife if they buy a second Xbox
In any case, I know that we are few, so maybe you are right and this is not the best option to resurrect the Xbox scene...
I don't really understand what your trying to say here... What emulator to program Xbox games?? And you don't need a second xbox to run the debug dash
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 18, 2010, 03:17:00 PM
QUOTE(hcf @ Jan 18 2010, 01:38 PM)
Well, I mean the same thing that I said in my other post: I speak about having an Xbox emulator for PC. This would make things easier as far as debugging is concerned, for people who cannot have a debug Xbox (for example, those ones who program in their office, hehehe).
Running the debug dash... is possible to play games and execute applications normally too? I didn't know it...
Also, I must say that I don't believe that making an Xbox emulator for PC is impossible. In fact, the architecture of the Xbox is very famous, so we have an exact idea of the machine that we want to emulate. The problem, in my opinion, is that PCs nowadays are not powerfull enough to emulate our beloved black box...
Yeah but the thing with making any games for an emulator, there is no guarantee that it will work on a real Xbox. Thats why the debug Xbox is so optimal, because it will for sure work on the Xbox if you make it with the Xbox hardware...
Post by: Bomb Bloke on January 18, 2010, 06:51:00 PM
QUOTE(hcf @ Jan 18 2010, 08:38 PM)
Running the debug dash... is possible to play games and execute applications normally too? I didn't know it...
Yes, so long as they aren't retail signed. It's possible to re-sign applications, though.
(Homebrew is usually debug-signed, though for whatever reason T3CH retail-signs the XBMC builds she releases. Anything on a retail game disc is, of course, retail signed.)
Though usually you'd switch the console out of debug mode unless you specifically want to do some debugging. The debug dash ups the system requirements of whatever you run through it; hence why the RAM upgrade is handy.
QUOTE(hcf @ Jan 18 2010, 08:38 PM)
The problem, in my opinion, is that PCs nowadays are not powerfull enough to emulate our beloved black box...
I'm inclined to believe otherwise, but hey, I could be wrong. Regardless, I can't see a decent emulator turning up before it's "too late".
QUOTE(garcimak @ Jan 19 2010, 06:57 AM)
i discovered you have to have any xbox <1.4 to get the debug system running, let me know if i'm wrong.
Didn't know that...
Post by: ressurectionx on January 18, 2010, 07:53:00 PM
QUOTE(garcimak @ Jan 18 2010, 04:57 PM)
Since we are talking debug, it takes me ages to figure how to make it run on xbox, i discovered you have to have any xbox <1.4 to get the debug system running, let me know if i'm wrong.
My xbox 1.4 launching fancy debug via evoX
So far, i managed to get the xdk launcher fine, i can access the box from my PC with Xbox neighbourhood etc.
As a noobish it's difficult to go further, no 1st steps tutorial for devs, some note here and there which only cover the installation part. The best would be to start a thread as they are still people around who can help .
I could barely find documentation for setting it up, and I thought what I did find was spotty myself. I had to get some help from some kind souls here to get my dev box running.
All I was able to do beyond that was some MAME tweaking that nobody will probably ever see in a release since BP wouldn't integrate it and his stuff is now light years ahead of where it was back then, let alone beyond anything that I've done. There is no good guides out there for XBox specific stuff, and I'm a novice at coding. I get general ideas, but I never put my nose to the grindstone to really learn any of it.
Pulsemasta has the right idea though. Learning that C++ real good can get him programming once he has his box setup for it.
Post by: Pulsemasta on January 18, 2010, 08:08:00 PM
hopefully being the keyword...
although I will get my degree in 2013, and the world will have ended the year previous to that...
