Post by: Cospefogo on April 30, 2006, 01:43:00 PM
Since I bought my Xbox and tried the wonderful Xport emulators
(and others of course) I was haunted by a horrible nightmare...
The blur effect on every single pixel on screen even with graphic
filters turned off.
I did plug my real Famicom to the TV, and played Castlevania 3.
After it, played the same on Xbox. The thing was not the same.
It was almost, but the blur suavization ever bothered me.
If you are one of those guys who wants the best fidelity to the
original emulated console, try this stuff I am going to suggest below.
Thanks to some guys here form this community, I did
update my emulators versions (evertyhing was old because
I was running from DVD all the time) directly into the Xbox HD
and got inside the new emulators versions, the little toy called
FLICKERING FILTER option, inside the video config area.
So let's go:
1. Using your MdnafenX_PCE open Super Star Soldier rom.
2. Play it using your filters, with flickering set to 5, soften screen, well
use you regular way of playing roms.
3. Now, set the Flickering filter to ZERO, turn off the soften,
turn off all filters, put Xbox hardware filter in POINT FILTERING.
4. Open your Super Star Soldier again. You will notice that everything
"flickers" on the screen, backgrounds are rendring weird, etc etc.
Can you see the difference? But keep on, we are not done yet...
5. To correct this, and get the resolution to very, very very near
to the original PCE screen, do the following now:
- Go Set Game Screen Size/Position on the video config menu
- Position your screen on X-60 and Y-8
- Put the screen width as 510 and height as 462
It's done. No damaged graphics, no damaged scrolling, no damaged sprites,
and no BLUR AT ALL!! Sharpen pixels! Of course, a little of flickering
can occur on some games, but not that will disturb your game play.
For MednafenX_Nes, NeoGenesis and MekaX, use this:
X-60, Y-18, 510x446 (Which is a double size of NES 256x224 screen minus 2 pixels
on width and height... don't ask me why. It only works this way! If you use
512x448 you will have bad rendering and distorted sharpen backgrounds.)
Remember, to put the Flickering filter in Zero, hardware in Point Filtering and no Soften filters.
I hope that this could be useful for some other person
like me who enjoy The "Old Skool no-bluuur..."
Regards,
Cospefogo.
This post has been edited by Cospefogo: Apr 30 2006, 08:49 PM
Post by: Hyllian on April 30, 2006, 07:10:00 PM
I figured it out last week, but only tried neogenesis. In my tests I've found that neogenesis is better using 638x446. It's because the original resolution of it is 320x224, so 2*X-2 and 2*Y-2 is equal to 638x446. And the pixels are perfect on both scrollings.
Post by: Cospefogo on April 30, 2006, 08:12:00 PM
Thanks for your information about the MegaDrive screen.
You are really right! After few more tests I got my definitive
screen numbers. Here they are:
For MednafenX Nes:
- Flicker Zero
- Point Filtering
- Image filters OFF
- 510x446 (256*2-2 x 224*2-2)
For MednafenX Pce:
- Flicker Zero
- Point Filtering
- Image filters OFF
- 638x462 (320*2-2 x 232*2-2)
For Neogenesis:
- Flicker Zero
- Point Filtering
- Image filters OFF
- 638x446 (320*2-2 x 224*2-2)
I have been trying to find the numbers for MekaX but got nothing good yet.
The image is garbled and pixels distorted. What about you guys?
Long live to the old-skool pixelated screens!
Cospefogo.
Post by: Chron Johnson on April 30, 2006, 09:00:00 PM
Edit: Sega Master System
# Graphics: VDP (Video Display Processor) derived from Texas Instruments TMS9918
* Up to 32 simultaneous colors available (16 for sprites, 16 for background) from a palette of 64 (can also show 64 simultaneous colors using programming tricks)
* Screen resolutions 256x192 and 256x224. PAL/SECAM also supports 256x240
* 8x8 pixel characters, max 488 (due to VRAM space limitation)
* 8x8 or 8x16 pixel sprites, max 64
* Horizontal, diagonal, vertical, and partial screen scrolling
This post has been edited by Chron Johnson: May 1 2006, 04:05 AM
Post by: Hyllian on April 30, 2006, 09:14:00 PM
256*2-2 = 510
192*2-2 = 382
510x382
xSnes9x doesn't show the resolution when you're adjusting the screen. So, It's a bit hard to find the ideal res.
Post by: Cospefogo on April 30, 2006, 09:16:00 PM
QUOTE(Hyllian @ May 1 2006, 12:14 AM) 
So, following the same logic for master system:
256*2-2 = 510
192*2-2 = 382
510x382
xSnes9x doesn't show the resolution when you're adjusting the screen. So, It's a bit hard to find the ideal res.
Thanks Hyllian!
Yes, let's just follow the same logic.
And yes, xSnes9x does not show the resolution information.
I really pray for this feature to be present on the next releases of ZsnesXbox.
And Chron, thanks (again!
) for the Master System info.I was about to get in google to hunt for it.
Regards, guys!
It's very nice to know that there are other dudes
out there who love the oldskool at its maximum!
Cospefogo.
Post by: Foe-hammer on May 01, 2006, 03:29:00 AM
The only problem is that using these set pixel ratios is it will be impossible to fill an entire screen. So there will be black bars surround the entire image.
Post by: Cospefogo on May 01, 2006, 04:17:00 AM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ May 1 2006, 06:36 AM)
The same could also be done when using HDTV's or computer monitors in HD 720p. All that would need to be done is multiply it by a larger number....say x3 or x4.
The only problem is that using these set pixel ratios is it will be impossible to fill an entire screen. So there will be black bars surround the entire image.
Hi!
About the black bars --- do you mean in HDTV's or monitors in HD 720p?
Because in my old regular television, only NES has black bars on right and left sides,
because the screen wisth for 2X is 510 (to fill my TV width I need at least 590).
Neogenesis and MednafenX PCE are set on 638 x Y, what fill full horizontally
my TV screen.
Cospefogo.
Post by: Hyllian on May 01, 2006, 06:44:00 AM
This post has been edited by Hyllian: May 1 2006, 01:47 PM
Post by: Chron Johnson on May 01, 2006, 03:19:00 PM
Also, I get some pretty heavy moire stuff going on with these settings and Point filtering sometimes...if it's too harsh on the eyes, bilinear filtering at perfectly scaled resolution with zero flicker filter looks pretty pixel-perfect too.
Post by: Cospefogo on May 01, 2006, 05:24:00 PM
QUOTE(Chron Johnson @ May 1 2006, 06:26 PM)
What's the deal with my supposedly standard CRT TV and my v1.6 XBox? NeoGenesis and MednafenX-PCE have about 10 or 20 spare pixels horizontally...like my TV isn't wide enough to take 638 horizontal pixels? That can't be right...is it because it's one of those nonsense "flat screen" picture tubes? Do they black out pixels on either side to try to fool me into thinking I have a "flat" tv...or is this related to 1.6's overscan problem, in Linux for example. Or is everyone's TV too narrow? (doubt it)
Also, I get some pretty heavy moire stuff going on with these settings and Point filtering sometimes...if it's too harsh on the eyes, bilinear filtering at perfectly scaled resolution with zero flicker filter looks pretty pixel-perfect too.
Well Chron,
Matter of fact I use also a standard CRT television, a 15'' flatron screen from LG
and I do connect my Xbox using the traditional retail AV cable.
My TV screen is NARROW too!
But, there are a lot of pixels on left and right sides of the screen
who are a "dead game area". I mean, something that actually CAN BE
outside the TV margins without causing any loss on the gameplay.
For example, open Samurais Showdown for Genesis. Align your
and your foe energy's bars to fit exaclty inside your television,
and you will see it will work. On Sonic 1, align the SCORE info very very
near to the left margin of tv screen, and you will see that the game
will keep looking great.
For me, using a old CRT on the most basic screen, this is the only
solution... I think.
(c:
I am super happy with that!
Cospefogo.
Post by: Foe-hammer on May 01, 2006, 05:57:00 PM
Post by: Chron Johnson on May 01, 2006, 06:21:00 PM
This post has been edited by Chron Johnson: May 2 2006, 01:26 AM
Post by: Jonesy_47 on May 01, 2006, 06:31:00 PM
Post by: Hyllian on May 01, 2006, 06:32:00 PM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ May 2 2006, 01:04 AM)
If playing on a pc monitor or HDTV flicker filter is not even an issue. The best setting for such is hardware 'point filter', and software 'super 2x sai'. The image is sharp without any blurring, but not so jaggifuly pixelated that it is without any software filters. When veiwing in high resolutions it is necessary to have some software filtering, because each pixel is EXTREMELY noticable.....more so then one would ever notice with no filters on on a regular 480i TV.
The problem with Super 2xsai is that it deforms the game fonts and some other details. Choose Final Fantasy VI for example, set Super 2xsai and play until the first dialog window, then pay atention to the game fonts. Run again, but now use HQ2x and see the fonts. HQ2x is much better. There are only two ways to not deform the game fonts, firt is using HQ2x and the second is not using any filter.
Post by: Cospefogo on May 01, 2006, 07:19:00 PM
QUOTE(Chron Johnson @ May 1 2006, 09:21 PM)
Yeah I knew as a kid that there was stuff going on just beyond my purview. Knew it. Sonic 1 was actually the ROM I used to configure my NeoGenesis screen, so I was happy to see everything look right...but until now I had some suspicion I was getting "ripped off". Heh. Have you tried Super Mario Bros 3 with these settings? Mine has a nast area on the left side of the screen suggesting it wants shrinkage.
Chron.
For MednafenX_NES you *must* use 510 as width, and not 638.
Open Megaman3 rom, enter on SnakeMan level, and do the works
with the screen size (and check scrolling too) paying attention to
SnakeMan level background.
It's easy to correct any kind of distortions with 'that' pattern background
on your screen.
Cospefogo.
Post by: foxxfella on May 17, 2006, 07:23:00 PM
X=31
Y=11
MAXX=577
MAXY=448
Hardware Filter: Point
Software Filter: Simple 2X
I did alot of my testing with Super Mario Bros 1 on my nes(took me forever to get working), I did a side by side comparison while adjusting the dimensions and these look pretty accurate.
Post by: foxxfella on May 17, 2006, 09:21:00 PM
no soften and use flicker filter 1 I'm using a non-hd setup.
Post by: dohopoki on May 18, 2006, 12:04:00 AM
Post by: Cospefogo on May 18, 2006, 07:31:00 AM
QUOTE(DaddyLongLegs @ May 17 2006, 08:49 PM)
I tried this. Go into Super Mario Bros 2. and check out before you go into the first door of the game (about halfway through the stage) that brings you inside the "cavern" area. The flickering on those green mountains or whatever they are is INSANE and unbearable.
Is there any way to correct this? I don't remember this being a problem at ALL with fceultra.
Well,
So, use BILINEAR filtering with FLICKER in ZERO.
This way you can, stretch the screen to 638 pixels on width
to have a "full screen" game.
Cospefogo.
Post by: Cospefogo on May 18, 2006, 07:43:00 AM
QUOTE(foxxfella @ May 17 2006, 10:30 PM)
I found these dimensions to be pretty accurate for use with Mednafenx_nes;
X=31
Y=11
MAXX=577
MAXY=448
Hardware Filter: Point
Software Filter: Simple 2X
I did alot of my testing with Super Mario Bros 1 on my nes(took me forever to get working), I did a side by side comparison while adjusting the dimensions and these look pretty accurate.
Opa!
If you use FLICKER FILTER in 1 it will "really mask" the screen distortions, so, you are not
having a "real NES" screen on your TV. It's easy to see that by looking carefully at the
green hills on Super Mario Bros 1. The pixel outlines must have no distortions. It's simple
to notice that. Put your flicker in ZERO and see for yourself.
And, as I said, try Megaman 3 on SnakeMan level. Open the game using the
settings you mentioned --- Put Flickering in 0 and walk around on the level.
You will see that things are wrong. The pattern background will speak
by itself.
Sorry, but after my exhaustive experiences your current coordinates are mathematically wrong.
A NES screen --- to not have ANY DISTORTIONS --- must be at 510x448 or 638x448, on even
coordinates, like 12, 14, 32, 60... If you use positioning coordinates like 31 and 11 you will get
MORE flickering on the pixels. (At least here in my CRT television)
The thing is --- Since you are using Flickering in 1, you can't see the distortions.
If ZERO settings are bothering you too much, use the BILINEAR filter instead of
point.
Believe me.
Regards, Dude,
Cospefogo.
Post by: Cospefogo on May 18, 2006, 12:11:00 PM
QUOTE(Fred_PJ @ May 18 2006, 02:00 PM)
That's real nice and all but you're just thinking about NES' native resolution and forgetting about NES' aspect ratio. You want it to look like a real NES, but a real NES just doesn't display a square (510x448) or an overzoomed picture (638x448) on a tv so all that is pretty useless...
Hey Dude!
Do you have a NES in your home?
Did you used to play a real NES years ago?
Can you plugin side by side a NES and a XBOX running MdenafenX?
This is the only way I (and some other fellows here) found out to have the
NES screen on television to look like the original NES displaying.
Would you please turn off your filters, put your flickering in Zero,
set up point filtering and suggest us something NEW that do
not DISTORT the original NES aspect ratio?
All graphics are bitmapped - the are no polygons, so if one single
column or row of pixel get out of place, everything will be distorted!
If you don't mind, do what I suggest, open MegaMan3, SnakeMane level
a play with screen dimension --- paying attention to the patterned
background.
But, after all my speech --- If you are those guys who enjoy the
super-duper-über software filtering, smoothing, softering
and related plug-ins I must agree with you --- this topic is a real crap
and absolutely bullshit. Forget it, never mind. There is nothing useful
for blurring-people in here.
Please don't get me wrong, we are all nostalgic lunatics!
Regards!
Cospefogo.
Post by: Chron Johnson on May 18, 2006, 05:06:00 PM
QUOTE(Cospefogo @ May 1 2006, 09:26 PM)
Chron.
For MednafenX_NES you *must* use 510 as width, and not 638.
Open Megaman3 rom, enter on SnakeMan level, and do the works
with the screen size (and check scrolling too) paying attention to
SnakeMan level background.
It's easy to correct any kind of distortions with 'that' pattern background
on your screen.
Cospefogo.
I never said I had it sized to such a ridiculous size. It's as it should be. The Snake Man level moires unless bilinear filtering is enabled. Point can't cut it. Also, the screen glitch I described in Mario 3 is visible in any number of games. It's area that would usually be off the screen. So 510 with point filtering causes rainbow distortions on complex patterns and also some games have dead space visible on the left of the display.
Post by: Cospefogo on May 18, 2006, 05:34:00 PM
QUOTE(Chron Johnson @ May 18 2006, 08:13 PM)
I never said I had it sized to such a ridiculous size. It's as it should be. The Snake Man level moires unless bilinear filtering is enabled. Point can't cut it. Also, the screen glitch I described in Mario 3 is visible in any number of games. It's area that would usually be off the screen. So 510 with point filtering causes rainbow distortions on complex patterns and also some games have dead space visible on the left of the display.
Matter of fact I am using 510 pixels on NES no more!
638 pixels of width is working wonderfully great!
And yes, sometimes, when the moire is too strong, I switch from point to bilinear.
(c:
Cospefogo.
Post by: nes6502 on May 18, 2006, 08:12:00 PM
QUOTE(Cospefogo @ May 19 2006, 12:41 AM)
Matter of fact I am using 510 pixels on NES no more!
638 pixels of width is working wonderfully great!
And yes, sometimes, when the moire is too strong, I switch from point to bilinear.
(c:
Cospefogo.
Excellent work with the emulator size calculations. Can you offer me any information that might help me display more usefull resize coordinates in ZsnexBox? Or anything that would make it easier for you to calculate the accurate numbers in a later release. I am displaying the centered (blue border alignment) of SNES rendering at 512x448 (twice the native resolution)
Post by: Cospefogo on May 19, 2006, 06:04:00 AM
QUOTE(nes6502 @ May 18 2006, 11:19 PM)
Excellent work with the emulator size calculations. Can you offer me any information that might help me display more usefull resize coordinates in ZsnexBox? Or anything that would make it easier for you to calculate the accurate numbers in a later release. I am displaying the centered (blue border alignment) of SNES rendering at 512x448 (twice the native resolution)
Nes6502,
I just installed the last ZsnesxBox (1.4) and did try to work with the
screen adjustment option. I must confess you that I really can't find
good results as I did for Xport's emulators.
I my opinion, it would be great if the left analog stick could work
*only* for screen positioning (X and Y) coordinates and the right
analog stick work *only* for increasing and decreasing the screen
dimensions (just like MednafenX, NeoGenesis, and so on).
Cospefogo.
Post by: Cospefogo on May 20, 2006, 05:25:00 AM
QUOTE(slogra @ May 20 2006, 06:19 AM)
I agree with Cospefogo; i also have a lot of trouble getting the right size. The darkened game image isn't helping either. It's very hard to see each pixel with such a dark image.
I've made testscreen that should make the resizing a lot easier.
Slogra,
Fantastic screen! The edges pattern lines (just like the Megaman's energy bar life)
it the best tool to correct screens distortion! Your resize screen is much better than
mine (I have suggested one to Nes6502)!
Hey Nes6502 --- Forget about my PM. This image made by Slogra
works much better!
Cospefogo.
Post by: Hyllian on May 20, 2006, 06:54:00 AM
I adjust my screen very fast using scanlines on Xport's emulators, it's because scanlines gets distorted if the resolution isn't native. The only problem is that scanlines only exists horizontally today. If at least I could use scanlines vertically, it would be much more easy for all dimensions!