Post by: Cathesdus on May 19, 2004, 11:22:00 AM
NTSC People - When you download a PAL rom, do you get pissed our do you not care?
PAL People - When you download an NTSC rom, do you get pissed our do you not care?
I know that every time I download a rom and find out that it's PAL I'm like damnit Europe, why the hell did you have to be different and then I realize that it's not them that's different, it's my capitalist country USA! Woohoo! BTW, where I live, gas prices for premium are $2.13 a gallon! Know why it's so high? Because we're fighting a war nobody wants to be in!
Sorry...I got a little sidetracked but anyways respond to the questions above.
Post by: VampX on May 19, 2004, 11:40:00 AM
the only reason why i prefer NTSC to PAL is because of the romhacks & Savegames that are mostly in NTSC format.
Other then that i truly dont see why anyone would get pissed of downloading PAL stuff.
reminds me of the people i see on the newsgroup where i download mah wrestling stuff, whenever someone posts PAL video's their all like "3YE N33D TEH NtsC!!@##@@#"
Seriously, buy a new TV damn cheapskates.
ok i'll stop ranting now
Post by: Sauron-Jin on May 19, 2004, 07:56:00 PM
When reffering to import native games for xbox (or other console) this isn's as simple, PAL standard is 50Hz 720x576, and NTSC is 60Hz 720x480, and the frequency of the color carrier is different between them. Here in my country at last (Spain) i have yet to see a TV which doesn't support PAL60 (60Hz, 720x576, PAL color carrier), this mode have the best of PAL and NTSC, and it is selectable in MSdashboard and all PAL games support this mode. In the case of PS2 and other consoles, the support of PAL60 mode depends of the game itself, but the most important titles does suport this mode.
Having said this, when a guy with a PAL console on a PAL TV runs a NTSC only game, he only have to use a RGB cable in order to correct the different color carrier of the NTSC standard, and the game will work for sure, because NTSC resolution is lower and screen refresh is the same as PAL60.
When a guy with a NTSC console and NTSC TV is trying to run a PAL only game, he mostly is screwed, PAL refresh rate is lower or the same of NTSC, color carrier is correctible using a RGB cable, but Screen Resolution of the PAL game is higher than the NTSC TV supports. he must use a Multisystem TV, wich are very difficult to find in NTSC countries, if he wants to play his imported game.
Note: the examples above are assuming the games are only able to run on it's intended TV standard so they force you to use a utility to change the TV standard of your xbox console to match the game.
I hope this helps to clarify your doubts about the differences between these TV standards when refering to emulation and native games, and plz excuse my english faults
Cheers!
Post by: Sauron-Jin on May 19, 2004, 08:14:00 PM
| QUOTE (stezo2k @ May 19 2004, 10:10 PM) |
| With import games, then yes i do get annoyed when some games insist they run in NTSC, my Tv runs NTSC, but the picture quality is nowhere near as good, i'll get a scart lead when i get a chance, trouble is i usually get borders with my ps2 scart. |
You will always get those black borders, because NTSC games are lower resolution than PAL standard, so the image take less space on PAL screen, no mater what A/V cable you use. this problem is mostly related to PS2, the xbox auto-scales the image to fill the entire screen.
Post by: GogoAckman on May 19, 2004, 10:14:00 PM
| QUOTE (Sauron-Jin @ May 20 2004, 05:14 AM) |
| You will always get those black borders, because NTSC games are lower resolution than PAL standard, so the image take less space on PAL screen, no mater what A/V cable you use. this problem is mostly related to PS2, the xbox auto-scales the image to fill the entire screen. |
nope it depends of television, most recent tvs do resize the size onNTSC, only old tvs have black boerders on NTSC, not all TVs support NTSC even with an rgb cable and nearly all new television support ntsc (size and color) without a RGB cable
.As said, the difference is resolution and refresh rate, and the standard is our (PAL)
.By the way, when I can, I buy an NTSC console or switch to ntsc (thx xbox), most of PAL games dont support PAL60 (even in xbox) and the speed difference is sensibly noticeable
, so NTSC for me 
.
Post by: XDelusion on May 19, 2004, 11:27:00 PM
...I'm quite adjusted to running PAL apps and games. I don't even notice these things anymore at this point.
As for gas...
...natural fuel would be great, but the damn jackass and the elephant are too busy paying each other for hand jobs to allow such a simple move...
...BAN fossil fule, give third world countries a working and pay standard when manufacturing goods for US companies, and only use weapons in defence...
...we lost a few thousand people because of a terrorist attack from some random Afganian in Florida, who was funded by Usama, an invester in the American market.
So why are we bomning Iraq? Oh because they have the oil (and peraps more to our interest) and there dictator tried to kill daddy when he was president.
Humanitarian act my ass.
I guess Repubilcans and Democrats are like PAL and NTSC, I can't tell the difference. Republicrats. I'd rather be me, and keep things simple, use commen sence, and NEVER be ignorant enough to pray to an idea of a messiah that would NEVER bomb a soul. Jesus might have gone a little ballistic in the temples, but he'd never hurt a fly according to the stories I've read about him.
I wonder what Bible Bush and his blind sheep are refering to?
Post by: stevie_mac on May 19, 2004, 11:39:00 PM
| QUOTE (Cathesdus @ May 19 2004, 08:22 PM) |
| BTW, where I live, gas prices for premium are $2.13 a gallon! Know why it's so high? Because we're fighting a war nobody wants to be in! |
UK
1 Litre = £0.81 (Approx $1.44)
1 UK Gallon = 4.54609 Litres
1 US Gallon = 3.785 Litres
1 UK Gallon = (0.81 * 4.54609) = £3.6823329
1 US Gallon = (0.81 * 3.785) = £3.06627860583 = Approx $5.46625
For 1 US Gallon, UK pays $5.46625
thats $3.33625 more than you.
Man, time to leave the UK me thinks!
Any how, we all know the governments are sitting on perpetual motion and forcing scientists to say its imposible!
BTW - Either is good! NTSC / PAL. Both look great on me PLASMA HDTV - so I'm with VampX
| QUOTE |
| Seriously, buy a new TV damn cheapskates. |
(hope i got me sums right - or i'll look an even bigger fool!)
Post by: XDelusion on May 20, 2004, 12:58:00 AM
Who ever said alternative fuels to the publook, and gets away with it, makes the public look like a bunch of dumb ass wipes.
It's like George Carlin said when I saw him in concert," fuck the public". It's the public who keeps voting the Harvard/Yale skulls members over and over, as opposed to one of the other 30 or so people running independantly, the working class man. Either that, or they don't vote at all which is plain dumb, democracy works, but the reason it isn't working is:
A: Most voters have short attention spans, mostly developed from a fast paced, drastically changing, rapidly growing enviroment, one which replaces the Earth with Concrete, gives you a "job status", "healthy enviroments", humanitarian actoins... images, catch frases, opinions, random bits of information, too much to keep up with, only matched with an even more impossible speed, all constantly fed to us through TV, Radio, and Clip Notes from the Republicrat, biased, censored news papers. A person who can not concentrate and focus on the simple facts for more than a day or two, need personal re-schooling for simple logic, and of course a sort of rehab for governmental drug attics...
...much of society. There is also too much of a literally mid-evil Orthodoxed Kristian influence in our modern society as well. Rome is not dead, it's just had a "make over" and now plays the role of an entertainer rather than a punisher, though we still like a good mass toture from time to time.
B: Even after all the votes are in, they can still go against the people's popular choice, and elect the other guy. It's true look it up!
C: Votes might be going electronic, as if matters could get worse.
D: There is not and option to vote "No Confidence" for the canidates to make SURE they don't run again next year!
E: Some people don't vote, because they don't care enough to take advantage of the Democracy we live in, or they feel that they can't make a change, or they are lazy.
And now the herbal tea
is catching up to me, I'll cut off here. Night.
Post by: GogoAckman on May 20, 2004, 01:12:00 AM
| QUOTE (stezo2k @ May 20 2004, 09:37 AM) |
| cheers for that info, i'll probably buy a xbox scart lead then as for the Ps2, since ive got the scart for it, i get borders on every game, especially big borders pal games, it only happens on my tv though, every other tv plays all full screen. Shame really because my standard ps2 lead plays ntsc and pal full screen, but the picture isn't nowhere as crisp on ntsc games. I just hope this doesn't happen on my xbox, else i'll probably end up getting a new tv to use NTSC games at high quality |
you just have a bad scart cable, there is one wire that tells the tv to set on 16/9 mode, I had the same thing, just cut that damn wire
.
Post by: ScHlAuChi on May 20, 2004, 06:14:00 AM
Post by: jizzlobber on May 20, 2004, 06:54:00 AM
| QUOTE (GogoAckman @ May 20 2004, 06:14 AM) |
| By the way, when I can, I buy an NTSC console or switch to ntsc (thx xbox), most of PAL games dont support PAL60 (even in xbox) and the speed difference is sensibly noticeable , so NTSC for me . |
most xbox games DO support PAL60
I like PAL because- colours are more vibrant, NTSC is washed out in comparison, anyone with a PAL TV should switch between PAL and NTSC on their xbox to see what I mean... PAL is higher res at 50hz, id a game is optimised for 50hz it looks awesome although there's slightly less frames (not noticeable).
years ago NTSC was better because the games PAL games always suffered a loss in speed, xbox games generally support PAL and it's much better.
oh and PAL PS2 games with 60hz option are NOT PAL! the option simply switches it to NTSC... even tekken4 which said on the box PAL60 is NTSC in 60hz mode, PS2 isn't capable of PAL60.
Post by: desertboy on May 20, 2004, 10:01:00 AM
| QUOTE (jizzlobber @ May 20 2004, 03:54 PM) |
| most xbox games DO support PAL60 I like PAL because- colours are more vibrant, NTSC is washed out in comparison, anyone with a PAL TV should switch between PAL and NTSC on their xbox to see what I mean... PAL is higher res at 50hz, id a game is optimised for 50hz it looks awesome although there's slightly less frames (not noticeable). |
Never the same colour NTSC
As for speed issue compare Wipeout 2097 Pal version to NTSC and you'll notice they run at the same speed. (Higher framerate on NTSC but 1 sec of game time takes you around exactly the same ammount of course) most games companies could never be bothered to optimise their games for the Pal market.
(Wipeout 2097 was programmed in Liverpool UK.)
Post by: GogoAckman on May 20, 2004, 10:35:00 AM
, and for the scart thing, I have scart rgb cable and s-video cable, svideo looks way better with full coulours (while scart have a little too white image (I don t know how to say "un voile sur l image" )).
Post by: tamper on May 20, 2004, 11:12:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Having said this, when a guy with a PAL console on a PAL TV runs a NTSC only game, he only have to use a RGB cable in order to correct the different color carrier of the NTSC standard, and the game will work for sure, because NTSC resolution is lower and screen refresh is the same as PAL60. |
I'm not sure this is always true for import XBox games. I've found that some NTSC games only work properly in NTSC (007:EON for example). They work slightly better in PAL-60, but sometimes not at all in PAL-50. Most NTSC games with FMV seem also to lose A/V sync in PAL-50.
As for emulators, I can't say I've ever really bothered to notice whether a ROM is NTSC or PAL, as the emulator makes it all transparent. And until recently, I was running my Xbox through the RF input of a TV so old and shitty it had manual tuning!
t
Post by: ScHlAuChi on May 20, 2004, 11:16:00 AM
Highly unlikely that SVideo looks better than RGB cable.
Read this:
http://www.ps2home.co.uk/tv.htm
Post by: GogoAckman on May 20, 2004, 11:51:00 AM
| QUOTE (ScHlAuChi @ May 20 2004, 08:16 PM) |
| @GogoAckman Highly unlikely that SVideo looks better than RGB cable. Read this: http://www.ps2home.co.uk/tv.htm |
just test it, svideo looks much clearer and better than scart RGB (who is better than composite, for sure).And without loss of colour (compare composite - RGB if you d ont h ave svideo, you will see the loss I am speaking of).
Post by: Gus Man on May 20, 2004, 12:20:00 PM
EDIT: Since I use composite, does it get rid of NTSC/PAL issues?
Post by: Sauron-Jin on May 20, 2004, 12:37:00 PM
| QUOTE (GogoAckman @ May 20 2004, 07:14 AM) |
| nope it depends of television, most recent tvs do resize the size onNTSC, only old tvs have black boerders on NTSC, not all TVs support NTSC even with an rgb cable and nearly all new television support ntsc (size and color) without a RGB cable . As said, the difference is resolution and refresh rate, and the standard is our (PAL) .By the way, when I can, I buy an NTSC console or switch to ntsc (thx xbox), most of PAL games dont support PAL60 (even in xbox) and the speed difference is sensibly noticeable , so NTSC for me . |
Wrong, i was talking for people who has a PAL TV, not a Multisystem TV, if you have a multisystem TV you dont have to worry about this stuff as i have already said in my previous post. of course black borders doesn't appear on multisystem TV's
, and not all cheap TV's are multisystem, only TV's from quality manufacturers (Sony, Phillips, etc...) and some Jap imported models, that make them multisystem to avoid costs in manufacturing and stock redirection between regions. All less than 12 years old TV's supports PAL60 (i only speak for my country at least)Wrong again, all pal games i have tried, and they aren't a few, supports PAL60 when you select this mode from dashboard. my TV on screen display states this and i myself notice that. so i prefer PAL games because i can play them in 60hz and 720x576
If i had a PS2, I probably would consider using NTSC games on it.
Post by: Sauron-Jin on May 20, 2004, 01:01:00 PM
| QUOTE (tamper @ May 20 2004, 08:12 PM) |
| I've found that some NTSC games only work properly in NTSC (007:EON for example). They work slightly better in PAL-60, but sometimes not at all in PAL-50. Most NTSC games with FMV seem also to lose A/V sync in PAL-50. |
This is true, i'll take Ninja Gaiden NTSC for example:
There are games in both regions that incorporate the code to run in the other region, when you use a debug bios based one (xecuter, evox, etc...) you allow the game to run using the code implemented for the other region, so you can play NTSC games on a PAL running console and viceversa, but some times this code to run in the other region is not finished or complete, and the movies are not encoded at the correct framerate to stay synchronized to the TV standard of the other region, the results of this may vary.
Some games shows slowdowns, other serious tearing effects, and other simply doesn't work.
In my example, Ninja Gaiden NTSC running on PAL console, the result is that the game forces the console to output 50Hz, i think because it hasn't implemented the code for PAL60, the gameplay is a little slower than normal, the movies are jerky and lost sync with gamepad rumble, some subtitles in movies are skipped too.
---------------
To clarify thinks about different cables setups:
Composite Video: three color signals + TV sync signal in the same cable and GND (2 cables).
S-Video: Luminance and chrominance, both with embeded TV sync signal, splitted into two cables with their corresponding GND (4 cables)
RGB (Scart or RCA's): Three independant color signals with sync and their corresponding GND (6 cables)
RGB gives the best quality as it prevents "color bleeding" and keeps the original quality of the colors, it is also cheap and easy to build for everyone, and the most of TV's support this standard. S-Video is the next in the ranking, suffers from a little "color bleeding" but has good contrast and color brightness, is the most difficult to build and is the less supported by TV systems. Composite Video is the worst in quality terms, serious "color bleeding" and standard brightness/contrast quality, but it is the cheapest and the most easy to implement.
The quality you may experience with your TV may be contradictory of what i have said, this is because it depends of how your tv is able to manage the different signals, for example, the TV i'm using to watch my xbox doesn't support S-Video signal, does support RGB but set the brightness too high forcing me to put the brightness down in the TV config. Composite behaves normal, so it may appear that composite gives better quality on this TV, but once you have set up the correct brigtness, you realize that RGB gives much better quality (but all the other channels look too dark), in the case of my other three small TV's, only one of them supports S-Video signal, and all of them supports RGB and composite without any kind of glitch (but they are small
)Don't be stupid, do not pay more than $15 for a RGB cable they are not affected in any noticeabily way by poor quality materials (except in extreme cases) as they share the same principles of composite video signal, even they are less affected by long distances than composite.
Hope this will help you.
Cheers
Post by: Sauron-Jin on May 20, 2004, 01:27:00 PM
| QUOTE (ScHlAuChi @ May 20 2004, 10:15 PM) |
| I have Ninja Gaiden NTSC too - works flawless What u need is the Enigmah VideoModeSelector (get it from the usual places) With it you can set your Xbox to NTSC and the game will work flawless |
I already know that, I only was trying to put an example of what ocurrs when you put this game on a pal console without using any region changer program.
Now i have my own copy of Ninja Gaiden PAL, uncensored, at higher res than the NTSC one, and in my mother language.
cheers!
Post by: Gus Man on May 20, 2004, 03:26:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| component is below Svideo quality wise. |
NO, Composite is below Svideo, component is the the RGB colored cables that carry luminance and color difference. I beleive component is better than RGB scart.
Post by: Prican24 on May 20, 2004, 05:02:00 PM
now i'm from usa so rgb has no use to me but component cables bring out the best picture as is and also if you got a hdtv to put it in 480p or higher and the picture gets better.
s-video comes right below it in terms of picture quality
Post by: XDelusion on May 20, 2004, 06:42:00 PM
Post by: Gus Man on May 20, 2004, 08:41:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| s-video comes right below it in terms of picture quality |
Prican knows what he is talking about, component is the US answer to RGB but it uses less bandwidth, so no, your wrong.
Post by: Sauron-Jin on May 21, 2004, 06:04:00 AM
So the correct names here are:
- Component RGB cable...
- Component YPbPr cable...
| QUOTE |
component is the US answer to RGB but it uses less bandwidth |
RGB IS component connection, RGB exist all over the world (even in the USA)
if you are refering to YPbPr when you say "component", it exist all over the world too, but PAL xboxes have it capped from launch time.| QUOTE |
component is better than RGB scart |
As i said RGB IS component, if you are refering to Component YPbPr, then, yes it is much better than RGB, but requieres an expensive HDTV to work, and only works on NTSC consoles, for people without a HDTV, RGB gives the max quality they could ever get from their console.
Cheers
Post by: Cathesdus on May 21, 2004, 08:12:00 AM
. Anyways, I have noticed that some emulators actually don't TRULY support PAL60 on an NTSC TV. Meaning, for instance, I have a PAL version of F Zero and I use the emu xsnes9x. Even though the emu knows the game is PAL, it still runs it at 60hz, which makes the game run way too damn fast for enjoyment. It's a lot like playing need for spped underground but with crappy graphics. Anyways, since I seemed to have turned this into a dual topic, also, I really do feel bad for you in the UK, $5.xx for gas is what it biold down to? God knows but I believe the UK is a *richer* country I guess you could say. For instance, what does minimum wage boil down to in the UK?