Post by: total_ass on August 17, 2004, 11:02:00 AM
ok here's the deal. some of you may remember the topic i created a few weeks back about my xbox struggling to play NTSC dvds. well it turns out that you were right, it is because of NTSC having 60 frames per second as opposed to the cheap ass European 50 frames per second. Changing the output to Pal 60 hertz mode does infact do the trick.
However a new problem arises, when i change it to 60hz mode, the refresh rate does indeed get increased, however the picture changes and gets stretched vertically to the point where it cuts off a lot of the top and bottom of the picture. I can't seem to find a way to fix this, and it appears to be an incompatibility with my tv, as it is the same with my Gamecube when i put that in 60hz mode. can someone confirm that there is no way whatsoever to fix this?
If this cannot be fixed which i highly doubt it can, i am going to be forced to purchase a tv that does properly support 60hz mode. I have seen several standard tv sets at affordable prices, however none of them say whether they are 60hz mode or not. it would seem that manufacturers here in the UK do not think that it matters to the public and that they only want them so that they can watch normal tv. But I have been on some of the websites and they do display the refresh rates. The tvs all say that they have a refresh rate of 50hz, but some also say that they support NTSC playback. This brings up the question, if a tv supports NTSC playback, does it automatically support 60hz mode?
Post by: bucko on August 17, 2004, 12:38:00 PM
To fix your stretch thing look at the video settings in the m$ dash cause there is Normal, Letterbox and WideScreen mode. Try each one out, also check your TV manual for stretch settings. Hope this helps unles I've completly got it the wrong way round.
.
Post by: total_ass on August 17, 2004, 01:23:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| But seriously, do you really wanna buy a new tv just to watch NTSC DVD's ? |
i have a lot of ntsc dvds, and some of them are my favourite films. also i have some ntsc games, and pal 60 looks a hell of a lot better and smoother when playing games if you have seen it. it makes a big big difference.
| QUOTE |
| So your trying to play an NTSC DVD on a Pal xbox if I understand correctly? Well Before you switch your Xbox into NTSC mode disable the Pal 60hz mode before using Enigma Video Switch Disk. Once done this reboot into the Enigma Video Switch tool and change your EEPROM settings to NTSC. Once again reboot. To fix your stretch thing look at the video settings in the m$ dash cause there is Normal, Letterbox and WideScreen mode. Try each one out, also check your TV manual for stretch settings. Hope this helps unles I've completly got it the wrong way round. . |
I know about all of that, my tv doesn't support ntsc mode so enigmah is no use, it also has nothing to do with the region of my eeprom, it is just about the refresh rate of ntsc compared to standard pal. my tv doesnt appear to have any options to resize the picture, it is pure incompatibility, and editing the picture ratio in the ms dash doesn't help either, like i say its my telly.
basically it comes down to, if a tv supports ntsc, does it support pal 60?
Post by: fahrenheit on August 17, 2004, 06:10:00 PM
| QUOTE (total_ass @ Aug 18 2004, 06:05 AM) |
| However a new problem arises, when i change it to 60hz mode, the refresh rate does indeed get increased, however the picture changes and gets stretched vertically to the point where it cuts off a lot of the top and bottom of the picture. |
Can you clarify this a bit further? To what degree does the image stretch?
NTSC being 480 lines compared to PALs 576 lines may give the illusion of being stretched because you can see the scanlines more prominently.
Are you losing image at the top and bottom and by how much?
I have a 50hz Loewe TV and have one Xbox a PS2 and a Gamecube hooked up to it using RGB SCART, all using PAL 60 and I have another NTSC Xbox also hooked up with SCART without any problems.
TVs I have experienced that don't support PAL 60 show a rolling black & white image. So it sounds like your set supports PAL 60 but not NTSC. This will not be enough for you to enjoy your NTSC DVDs because PAL 60 is PAL colour with an NTSC refresh rate.
Oh, and stay away from 100Hz - http://forums.xbox-s...249703&hl=100hz
Post by: total_ass on August 18, 2004, 03:54:00 AM
Post by: a2002adam on August 18, 2004, 09:38:00 AM
I've got a v1.1 xbox and an xecuter 2 with the latest xecuter BIOS
Post by: total_ass on August 18, 2004, 10:36:00 AM
Also, to the other dude, playing NTSC games on a PAL xbox has nothing to do with it, i do it as well. the xbox keeps it at a PAL output so it doesn't make a difference.
Post by: RcbUK on August 18, 2004, 04:27:00 PM
Post by: El Pollo Diablo on August 18, 2004, 09:18:00 PM
Post by: total_ass on August 19, 2004, 05:23:00 AM
what is a composite cable?
lol i am stupid.
but i mean my tv obviously can handle the 60 frames per second refrsh rate, because it does show trust me, its just the picture going off screen.
Post by: fahrenheit on August 19, 2004, 05:38:00 AM
| QUOTE (total_ass @ Aug 20 2004, 12:26 AM) |
| what is a composite cable? |
Its just the standard AV cable that came with your Xbox. It has three RCA plugs one yellow for video and red and white for audio. Unless where ever you are in the world they only supplied you with a SCART cable???
If you don't have that cable (or the inputs on the TV) don't worry about it, just deal with pin 8 on the SCART.
Post by: total_ass on August 19, 2004, 05:53:00 AM
Anyway can you explain this 8 pin thing to me a bit better please, i don't quite understand what you want me to do.
Post by: total_ass on August 19, 2004, 07:18:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 19, 2004, 08:34:00 AM
Post by: Dolfhin on August 19, 2004, 02:37:00 PM
| QUOTE (total_ass @ Aug 19 2004, 04:37 PM) |
| will an rgb scart cable definetly sort this problem out, i don't want to buy one and find i've wasted my money. how much do they generally cost? |
20 Euro for a JoyTech one with Digital out and S-Video and two sound plugs so that you can plug it in a receiver.
edit :
| QUOTE |
so the three coloured wires going into scart isn't RGB SCART? |
No that's just normal composite.
Post by: total_ass on August 19, 2004, 02:58:00 PM
http://www.play.com/...OX&title=115618
is this just as good as the 20 quid MS one? its only a fiver.
Post by: total_ass on August 19, 2004, 03:40:00 PM
Post by: Dolfhin on August 19, 2004, 05:06:00 PM
| QUOTE (total_ass @ Aug 19 2004, 11:43 PM) |
| oh and one more thing, ntsc dvds don't seem to play in pal60 through the ms dash or thc, is this normal? will this new cable automatically switch the refresh rate to play ntsc dvds? |
NO
You'll have to enable/disable it in the M$ dashboard/XBMC.
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 03:34:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 03:35:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 05:44:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 07:56:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 08:30:00 AM
i found this, its an rgb scart lead made by joytech, with lots of cool other stuff. is the lead decent and is the overall pack worth it?
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 12:03:00 PM
Post by: Dolfhin on August 20, 2004, 12:11:00 PM
Definly something to look into 20 bucks isn't to much.
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 12:14:00 PM
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 12:21:00 PM
Post by: total_ass on August 20, 2004, 02:51:00 PM
Post by: total_ass on August 21, 2004, 03:56:00 AM
but you are on about the 15 quid lead correct? if you click on the link at the top of this page, you will find that joytech have another rgb scart cable, that is included in their essentials pack, and it is rgb only (much cheaper as well), without all of the other connectors on the one you have.
Post by: total_ass on August 21, 2004, 05:43:00 AM
on the actual joytech website theres a pic of it and it looks fine. standard rgb cable gold-plated.
Post by: total_ass on August 21, 2004, 11:40:00 AM
| QUOTE (fahrenheit @ Aug 21 2004, 11:48 AM) |
| That cable looks fairly cheap n' nasty and the one in the picture has a PS2 connector on the end. I'm sure it will do you fine. |
where's the need?
Post by: bwi on August 23, 2004, 06:39:00 PM
You really do need to get a newer tv. I've had 10 year old tvs that support rgb and 60hz, you dont need a 100hz tv to get a 60hz picture.
Also i have both an MS and cheapo rgb lead and there isnt hardly any difference (its not the joytech either). Also make sure the splitter you have passes through RGB because in argos there are two kinds and putting rgb into a crap scart splitter will at worst lose your picture or at best give you a compsite picture.
Also when/if you get an rgb lead the odds are that you might suffer from rgb shift which means that the picture is shunted about an inch to the left. My old 32" wega did this , but the other tv i have has an rgb shift in the tv menu
Some games have screen adjustment , but most don't and i think this would be best done from within the MS dash (XBMC does it, though i doubt this may help but worth a try if its installed)
hope this helps clear things up a little more
Bri
Post by: bwi on August 24, 2004, 02:38:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| I think Bri, he would be better to first buy a 5 quid cable before purchasing a new TV |
yeah , i think he will get a nice picture but it wont solve his problems, i'm 99% sure of that.
Bri
Post by: total_ass on August 24, 2004, 04:14:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 25, 2004, 03:28:00 AM
anyway, i plugged in the new rgb scart and fired up the xbox, changed to 60hz mode in tHc (which is the same as MS dash btw) and everything seems ok. after a while of testing i came to the conclusion that PAL 60hz mode is now fixed, it doesn't go off the screen. However all NTSC games and applications now go off the screen. So my problem is semi-solved. Can anyone explain this for me?
Post by: 3dfx on August 25, 2004, 04:59:00 AM
| QUOTE (fahrenheit @ Aug 21 2004, 01:07 AM) |
Are you even reading my posts???  The cables performance is ordinary! which means not great, so so, middle of the road. It also has an S-Video cable permanently attached that is complete rubbish, its attached at the xbox end of the cable and being 2 metres long tends to lay on the ground and get in the way. The optical port is also attached at the Xbox end of the plug, which means that you have further to run an optical cable to a receiver than say a cable with a breakout box like the MS one. But most annoying is the fact that you cannot have the SCART cable and S-Video cable hooked up at the same time, even if they were hooked up to two different TV's and one was turned off, they still interfere with each other. I own the Joytech SCART cable and I own another SCART cable that is a clone of the MS cable and I can say don't bother with the Joytech cable, there is better cheaper alternatives. However Joytech make another product that you must have, its a "mult-scart thingy" as you say, I have my two Xboxs, PS2 and Gamecube hooked-up to it and it has a remote control to swtich between the different inputs, and it is excellent. http://www.joytech.n...ct=57&x=22&y=10 |
What is wrong the with quality
... its second to none imo, the gold connectors and cheap price £10 (amazon) make it better than the MS one.
Post by: 3dfx on August 25, 2004, 06:01:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 25, 2004, 07:21:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 25, 2004, 07:24:00 AM
Post by: Chancer on August 25, 2004, 09:36:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 25, 2004, 09:58:00 AM
Post by: MP3Junkie on August 25, 2004, 03:54:00 PM
Cheers
Post by: Chancer on August 25, 2004, 04:18:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Watson. I don't think they even have a website lol. |
Its a vestel chassis set normally found in the supermarkets sometimes branded as Bush or Alba. The chassis will be an AK19.
I can tell you how to enter the service mode on this but unfortunately it will not help as there is no option to give the modes you want. One of the poor designs on this chassis is poor aspect correction which will not be helping.
Post by: Dolfhin on August 25, 2004, 04:43:00 PM
Post by: 3dfx on August 26, 2004, 12:28:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 26, 2004, 04:44:00 AM
Post by: Chancer on August 26, 2004, 04:53:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| One thing you can try is to snip the wire going to pin number 8 on the SCART end of the cable. This pin controls aspect ratio and may have an adverse effect on your TV (the same goes for the Gamecube cable). |
If so don't bother messing with it as the info is not correct. Pin 8 enables automatic switching to the AV channel on the TV it has absolutely nothing to do with controling the aspect ratio and will not solve your problem.
Post by: total_ass on August 26, 2004, 04:56:00 AM
Post by: total_ass on August 26, 2004, 07:21:00 AM
Post by: Chancer on August 26, 2004, 09:59:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Yes Chancer Pin no. 8 does enable automatic AV switching, but where consoles are concerned, I can testify that it can also causes problems with 16:9 mode on 4:3 compatible sets |
Sorry makes absolutely no difference to the aspect ratio switching wether its connected to a console or not. the pin 8 control is determined in the TV if it detects the input (only a voltage) from any equipment on pin 8 it switches to the relevant scart channel that the equipment is plugged into, the aspect ratio is not altered except in the following example.
The only time you would see a difference is if your widescreen TV has an Auto mode for the aspect ratio and you had say been watching the tV on a 4:3 mode and switched on the console which was set to 16:9. this would obviously then cause the set to switch to 16:9 because of the wide screen signal but nothing to do with pin 8.
If you want or anyone is interested i can post the circuit description for the scart switching set up. Yes I see it all the time I repair TV and home electronics for a living, so whatever is altering your aspect its nothing to do with pin8
Post by: Chancer on August 27, 2004, 03:30:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| total_ass just confirmed what I have said in his last post |
No he did not what he is seeing is nothing to do with aspect ratios at all. 16:9 or 14:9 or 4:3 is the same aspect ratio and size wether you have PAL or NTSC
The picture size is different because fo the difference in the field flyback rate. His TV does not support this rate correctly so the picture is displayed overscanned.
| QUOTE |
| You are not offering a viable alternative to cutting pin 8, and for clarification we are talking about pin 8 on the cable and not in the set. |
I know you mean pin 8 in the cable, where do you think the voltage on pin 8 is fed to THE TV and it is the TV that switches to AV when it has an input voltage of 5V or greater on pin 8. the consolde does not send any special data via pin 8. Auto widescreen switching is done dependant on the incoming video signal not via pin 8. Your set changes channel the set detects a different video signal coming in and if the tV is set Auto aspect changes the aspect ratio. IF the TV is set in 16:9 or 4:3 the aspect will not alter.
The only viable alternative unfortunately to the guy is replace the TV. His Tv is a Turkish chassis design by Vestel and as such is a budget TV that simply does not support the mode he wishes to run the TV in
I hope I have explained it easy enough,as going into how the aspect ratio is switched would bore veryone here and take a lot of space
Post by: Chancer on August 27, 2004, 01:13:00 PM
Quote
Post by: total_ass on August 27, 2004, 01:22:00 PM
Post by: Chancer on August 28, 2004, 07:06:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Please humor me for a moment, if I came to you as a customer and told you that everytime I turned on my Xbox or PS2, my 4:3 TV changes from 4:3 to 16:9 mode/wide/letterbox (whatever you prefer to call it). What would you advise me to do |
First of all make sure you have the console set to the correct aspect ratio for your TV. Second if you have a 4:3 Tv set not many have the option of switching to 16:9 and certainly do not do this this automatically.
This is pointless you clearly do not understand how the aspect ratio is automatically selected on a Widescreen TV, despite your play on phrases or words used. here is how it is.
1. 4:3 TV sets do not have Auto aspect switching. If you reckon yours does post the make and model number on here. Some Sony and Hitachi inparticular have a button that says 16:9 which gives a psuedo widescreen effect by reducing the frame scan so the picture appears widescreen but with huge black bands top and bottom.
2. Pin 8 is not a data pin that controls or affects aspect ratio. Pin 8 has the same function be it with a console or a DVd or whatever it is connected to. What the TV does when it detcts voltage from pin 8 is identical no matter if its a video console or whatever plugged in.
3 On a widescreen TV that has Auto aspect switching. If you switch the tV aspect to Auto it detects the aspect signal from the incoming video signal not from pin 8. If you switch on your console DVD whatever on pin 8 will cause the TV channel to change and select the scart input. The incoming video signal is detected and if that signal contains the aspect information the TV will change to that aspect. If you cut pin 8 you will have to manually select the AV channel. The video signal that contains the aspect information signal is still there so the Tv will switch to that aspect.
Now Humour me:
I have on the bench at the moment a panasonic TX28WR4DP I set the aspect to AUTO. I connected a V1.4 Xbox I have just chipped and set up the console for widescreen. Switched all off powered on the TV then the Xbox. The tV switched to display Av1 which about a second later was followed by the word WIDE in the top left corner. I switched back to BBC1 turned off the console and chopped pin 8 from the RGB cable (The cable is stuffed but I buy them at £2 so no problem)
I switch on the Xbox and the channnel on the TV stays on BBC1. I switch manually to AV1 the Xbox pixture comes up and guess what Wide is diplayed in the top left hand corner.
Now as you just stated
| QUOTE |
| Because we both know that AV channel switching is not the only duty and result of pin 8. |
Explain why the TV switched to Wide with no pin 8 connected
Explain how Pin 8 can carry a data signal to control widescreen switching without a modulated carrier signal down that pin or a link to the video information to pick up the aspect signal.
Don't forget the model of the TV you are experiencing this on.
Post by: fahrenheit on August 28, 2004, 07:34:00 PM
My set is a Loewe Profile Plus 3472. It is 50Hz. The problem as I have stated is that 16:9 mode has been engaged on my set, with all my consoles when powering up. I would then manually have to change back to 4:3. If I chose to change channels, then change back to the RGB SCART's AV channel, the set would engage its 16:9 mode again and I would be forced to manually adjust back to 4:3.
Because of poor design on the remote and menu, changing between modes is a chore. So I found that removing pin 8 in my case has made life easier because now all that is required is for me to change manually to the SCART AV channel
(which it stays on most of the time) and it will remain in the 4:3 mode whenever I change channels and back again.
It does not equate to auto aspect ratio switching, it could just be an idiosyncrasy of my set (and the other couple of sets that I have experienced that do this). I believe in my case whether by intention of design, or by fault, it is the sets response to the voltage on pin 8.
There is also for me the issue of my increase in brightness, that disappears once the set is returned to 4:3. I have no explaination as to why my set does it and perhaps it is another idiosyncrasy or fault, but removal of pin 8 from the equation makes it a none issue for me.
DarkLegion you are correct, it doesn't matter in the context of the original question and I made the mistake of suggesting it, though it would be good for him to know when purchasing a new TV.
Post by: bompy on September 23, 2004, 06:12:00 AM
| QUOTE (Chancer @ Aug 27 2004, 11:33 AM) |
| No he did not what he is seeing is nothing to do with aspect ratios at all. 16:9 or 14:9 or 4:3 is the same aspect ratio and size wether you have PAL or NTSC The picture size is different because fo the difference in the field flyback rate. His TV does not support this rate correctly so the picture is displayed overscanned. |
is there any way to get rid of this overscanned image? I tryed both cable types, RGB or AV, whenever I set the xbox on PAL60 I get, indeed, an overscanned image. Another thing I observed, when I start xbox and the picure is set to "Pixel Plus" the screen will flicker as the refresh rate is to low, and... on Digital menu are only two options "Progressive scan" and "Double line" or smth... I should mention that the normal options in the digital menu are "100 Hz Digital Scan", "Pixel plus" and Double sided lines".
I have a 16:9 PhilipsTV 32pw9527.