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OG Xbox Forums => Hardware Forums => General Hardware/Technical Chat => Topic started by: trob on June 22, 2003, 05:54:00 PM

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 22, 2003, 05:54:00 PM

Test:
I just finished testing two IDE cables to decide if there is a difference. The first test I used the standard 40 pin IDE ribbon found in all xboxes. On the second test I installed an 80 pin ATA/100 IDE ribbon. Theoritically I know that since the DVD is on the same IDE chain as the hard drive that you can not achieve over ATA/33. But my opinion is that under most situations an ATA/100 IDE ribbon will slightly increase performance.

Continued on next post...

This post has been edited by trob: Jun 23 2003, 01:09 AM

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 22, 2003, 05:55:00 PM

Why use an 80 pin ribbon:
The purpose of the 80 pin ribbon is to improve the signal quality for high-speed transfers over the ATA (IDE) interface. This is accomplished by adding 40 ground wires to the existing 40 wires to provide a ground between each signal wire and provide the effect of a common ground plane. The connectors also contain a ground bus which ties together the ground wires.

How did I test my theory:
On both test I used all the same hardware. On my pc I used WS_FTP to ftp files to by xbox f:apps directory. On the xbox I used the standard evox ftp client. The hard drive I tested in the xbox was a Maxtor 120 8MB locked drive. Durring the test I took several 30 MB exe files and renamed with an xso extension. Why? Because I wanted to use similar file names and made up an extension. Also I used different files for each test due to the fact that my hd would cache the files if deleted.

Continued on next post...

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 22, 2003, 06:06:00 PM

FTP Results

Test #1 Standard 40 Pin IDE Ribbon
150 Opening BINARY data connection for F:Appsabc.xso
Transmitted 36277640 bytes in 15.4 secs, (22.55 Mbps), transfer succeeded
226 Transfer finished successfully. Data connection closed.

150 Opening BINARY data connection for F:Appsdef.xso
Transmitted 25911874 bytes in 10.4 secs, (23.96 Mbps), transfer succeeded
226 Transfer finished successfully. Data connection closed.

Continued on next post...

This post has been edited by trob: Jun 23 2003, 01:08 AM

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 22, 2003, 06:07:00 PM

Test #2 ATA/100 80 Pin IDE Ribbon
150 Opening BINARY data connection for F:Appsxyz.xso
Transmitted 33419120 bytes in 12.9 secs, (24.79 Mbps), transfer succeeded
226 Transfer finished successfully. Data connection closed.

150 Opening BINARY data connection for F:Appsuvw.xso
Transmitted 42721280 bytes in 16.6 secs, (24.65 Mbps), transfer succeeded
226 Transfer finished successfully. Data connection closed.

150 Opening BINARY data connection for F:Appsrst.xso
Transmitted 30767518 bytes in 11.9 secs, (24.84 Mbps), transfer succeeded
226 Transfer finished successfully. Data connection closed

As you can see I did get a 1-2 Mbps increase in performance from the 80 pin cable. I have took several photos of the cable installation and will attach them once I take the time to transfer and crop them.

End

This post has been edited by trob: Jun 23 2003, 01:11 AM

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 22, 2003, 06:08:00 PM

Sorry about breaking up the post but for some reason it would not post in one message.

This post has been edited by trob: Jun 23 2003, 01:13 AM

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: grug on June 22, 2003, 11:18:00 PM

You can't transfer totally different files (with totally different sizes) and then claim that the 80 pin cable is faster! Download and upload speeds are obviously going to fluctuate regardless. Not saying that the cable doesn't make a SLIGHT difference, but...

I also don't know why you didn't just turn off the machine once the transfer had completed -- thus clearing the cache and allowing you to transfer the exact same file -- which would be a much fairer test. You might also want to delete the file once you've transferred it -- fragmentation could also skew the results.

Also a 1MBps difference equates to about 128KB/sec. Not exactly earth shattering.

This post has been edited by grug: Jun 23 2003, 06:25 AM

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 23, 2003, 05:05:00 AM

I ran the test over a dozen times with many more files, I just didn't save the logs. I entered the results in an excel document to calculate the averages.

40 Pin IDE Average = 23.21 Mbps
80 Pin IDE Average = 24.74 Mbps

Now listen grug, don't be a XXXXXXX (sorry anger management) by trying to critique someones work. And no 1MBps does not equate to 128KB/sec, it equates to 1MBps. However 1Mbps is the same as 0.128MB/sec or 128KB/sec. And on average my test were 1.53Mb/sec faster which equals 195.84KB/sec. If you are transferring 3GB of data this would decrease the transfer time by about 1 min, which is also the amount of time it takes to swap out the cable.

This post has been edited by trob: Jun 24 2003, 12:37 PM

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: uziq on June 23, 2003, 07:27:00 PM

QUOTE (trob @ Jun 23 2003, 08:59 AM)

Now listen grug, don't be a jackass by trying to critique someones work.

I fail to see where grug came off as being a jackass. All he did was point out the flaws in your testing. and I agree with him. If you can't take the criticism, then that tells me you don't have a lot of confidence in the results.

It sounds likes you only sent a file ONCE on each cable. You should send a file a few times to find the average speed and then switch cables and send the same file a few times more and find the average speed again. and filesize makes a big difference. I'd like to see results from large (>700MB) files as well as small (5KB) ones.

Until you do those things, your test results don't mean a whole lot.

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: _300zx_TT on June 23, 2003, 09:45:00 PM

ok on my xbox i get about 4.8 mpbs megs on crossover..

how the F**K are u getting 23 MBps.. this i would like to know...

that ALL i wanna know

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: thorn on June 23, 2003, 10:05:00 PM

27 megabits per sec / 8 bits to a byte= 2.9 megabytes per sec. He is actually getting slower transfer rates than you, _300zx_TT.

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: rzyzzy on June 23, 2003, 11:01:00 PM

There was alot of discussion on this when evox first came out, lots of prople changed cables ( it can't really *hurt* anything), but there are still folks out there who don't believe. I suspect that *part* of the difference may also be cable *length* - the ata 66 cables that I've run across are 18 inches and the ata 33 cables are 24 inches - just like in motherboard design, when you're moving *millions* of bits back and forth, a shorter distance equals greater speed. The consensus was that the ide controller on the box was not optimized for ata/66 , and therefore you could not gain anything.

I'm not sure if it's the interference mentioned, or the shorter cable, or little blue men inside the cable, but I *think* my box is a little faster, and hey, the cable came *with* my hard drive, so it's not like I spent major cash on it.

QUOTE

Theoritically I know that since the DVD is on the same IDE chain as the hard drive that you can not achieve over ATA/33.

as to the above, I'm pretty sure this was addressed in the ata/66 standard, the way I understand it you can mix drives and still get ata 66, but truthfully, I don't hardly use my dvd anymore anyway - that's why I bought a bigger hard disc.

QUOTE

Not saying that the cable doesn't make a SLIGHT difference

I'd have to say it does make a *slight* difference, as promised by the title...

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: grug on June 24, 2003, 12:40:00 AM

QUOTE

I ran the test over a dozen times with many more files, I just didn't save the logs. I entered the results in an excel document to calculate the averages.

Well thats great, but you didn't mention that.

QUOTE

Now listen grug, don't be a jackass by trying to critique someones work. And no 1MBps does not equate to 128KB/sec, it equates to 1MBps. However 1Mbps is the same as 0.128MB/sec or 128KB/sec. And on average my test were 1.53Mb/sec faster which equals 195.84KB/sec. If you are transferring 3GB of data this would decrease the transfer time by about 1 min, which is also the amount of time it takes to swap out the cable.

So by critiquing your work I'm automatically a jackass? I was simply stating that your test was seriously flawed. And I'm sorry for capitalizing the B, but you really are nitpicking. You know i meant 1 megabit = 128 kilobytes.

I was simply stating that hard drive fragmentation, network utilization, the fact that you chose totally different files with totally different sizes, and a handful of other factors were much more likely causes of the differences in speed. And if you really did run the test dozens of times with many more files, why didn't you present those results?

Look at the difference between your first and second 40-pin tests alone...more than 1Mbps difference.

QUOTE

Nope, it was never addressed. An ATA/33 device sharing a device with anything else will slow everything down to ATA/33. Which is why Pioneer have started shipping DVD-ROMs with ATA/66 interfaces.

QUOTE

I'd have to say it does make a *slight* difference, as promised by the title...

I said I WASN'T saying it didn't make a difference, but I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that its an 80-pin cable.

I actually broke the standard ATA/33 cable in my Xbox, and I remember testing both an 80-pin and 40-pin cable in my Xbox to use as a replacement, and found that speeds were virtually identical. Sometimes the 80 pin was slower, sometimes it was not. I'll plan on repeating the tests in a few days, using identical files, two different source hard-drives, and both a retail and upgraded hard drives.

Also, the ethernet link is more of a bottleneck than the ATA/33 interface.

This post has been edited by grug: Jun 24 2003, 07:52 AM

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 24, 2003, 06:04:00 AM

First thanks rzyzzy for the informative post. Second sorry grug for jumping on you but I worked hard on this project, I will strike my comment. As we all know b and B can make 8 times the difference, I get my strong critiquing of this from teaching college courses on networking. And not trying to be anal but isn't 27Mbps 3.375MBps? It is pretty slow compared to others, for one I am using WS_FTP_LE. Also sorry for not posting all my results but I was already having enough issues because I had to break my post up. I don't know why but for some reason I had to shorten them.

QUOTE

I suspect that *part* of the difference may also be cable *length* - the ata 66 cables that I've run across are 18 inches and the ata 33 cables are 24 inches - just like in motherboard design, when you're moving *millions* of bits back and forth, a shorter distance equals greater speed.

I didn't measure my cables but I would guess that the 80 pin is about 1-2 inches shorter. I had a hell of a time folding it so it would make the stretch from the DVD to the HD. Rzyzzy do you think this could create that much of a variation?

QUOTE

An ATA/33 device sharing a device with anything else will slow everything down to ATA/33.

This is something I thought I read in my hard drive documentation.

Anyways the reason I created this thread is to inform others of the "Slight" tweaks that we can make to increase the performance of the xbox since there are no major improvements we can make. Hopefully making these small tweaks here and there it will make a difference.

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: uziq on June 24, 2003, 06:51:00 AM

I think the cable length could matter, just like rzyzzy said.

and I've tried to put an 80 pin cable in before, but all the ones I have are too short. Do I have midget cables or something?

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 24, 2003, 09:14:00 AM

Just measured mine, its about 18" like r stated. The cable should have two connectors about 6" apart...Plug that end into the motherboard and the dvd, if you have to make fold in it try to do them at a 45 degree angle. I have to say that I don't have a bit of slack between my dvd and hd. Some cables do vary up to 1/2" in length so you may have to search around.

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: rzyzzy on June 24, 2003, 08:54:00 PM

QUOTE

I've tried to put an 80 pin cable in before, but all the ones I have are too short. Do I have midget cables or something?

It was *very* difficult to get my ata/66 cable installed without stretching it, and it's not nearly as neat as MS's longer cable, there is no way to reproduce the folds of the original - but I was able to do again on several other xboxes with the cables included with Western Digital and Maxtor retail drives.

I've ran across a site in the past that mentioned "certified" ata/66 cables that were 18" - they also offered 24" ata/66 cables but they did not say the longer ones were "certified". I was able to find another vendor who mentioned ata/66 cable length

QUOTE

# Please note: some controller cards and Ultra UDMA 66/100 devices cannot recognize a cable that is longer than 18". Please check your manuals.

As to length affecting the speed of data transfer, I'd have to say it *should* affect speed - at least on a theoretical basis - how much hype has there been over the years about chip manufacturers moving the cache on the chip, as opposed to on the motherboard?

Based on my own experience, it seems to speed things up a bit. Just like a 7200 rpm hard disc does, and a hard disc with an 8 meg cache does as well. Is it worth paying alot of money for that performance? Probably not - I haven't noticed a difference in actual gameplay when using an Xbox with an ata-66 cable, or a 7200 rpm 8 meg cache hard disc - just a slightly faster load time and a slightly faster transfer rate on ftp transfers. And I'm not talking more than a few seconds on a 3 gig transfer.

That said, I usually buy retail packaged hard discs because they have a much better warranty than oem drives - as a nice extra they include the ata 66 cable, why not throw it in?

Title: Increase Hd Transfer Rate
Post by: trob on June 24, 2003, 09:00:00 PM

Again, thanks for the info rzyzzy. I do know that some 18" cables can vary almost 1/2". I work with pcs all the time and I had a whole box to surf thru. I got the longest 18" ATA/66 I could find (funny isn't it). It still is a very close fit, also be careful because when crossing the top of the dvd and hd with the cable it almost goes over one of the screw holes in the middle. Be careful to move it away a little so you dont damage the cable when you screw the cover back on.