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PlayStation3 Forums => PS3 Games Forums => PS3 Games General Chat => Topic started by: PS3Scene on January 17, 2007, 02:44:00 PM

Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: PS3Scene on January 17, 2007, 02:44:00 PM
Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Posted by XanTium | 17-1-2007 16:08 EST

 
From arstechnica.com:
Quote

So there you go: you can either install game assets on the hard drive or by place redundant game data around the disc. The problem in both of these solutions is that one of the advantages of Blu-ray become less compelling. Why bother with a large Blu-ray disc when you're putting that data on the hard drive before you play anyway? You could have simply put that extra information on a DVD and then moved it onto the hard drive The same can be said about the redundancy approach: why not just use a standard DVD and have it load quickly in the first place instead of doubling or tripling up your data on a slower but larger disc?

The Blu-ray drive is useful for movies, of course, but for gaming, Blu-ray doesn't look like it's the best choice until faster drives are released. There is every possibility of a future PS3 revision with a faster Blu-ray drive, but that won't help current PS3 owners. Blu-ray may be the future for storage that's both large and fast, but right now it seems shoe-horned into gaming applications. It seems like developers may actually do better by shipping some of their PS3 games on DVDs. Games will load faster and manufacturers will save money on the discs. Would Sony allow it?  

Full Story: arstechnica.com

Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Dirvance on January 17, 2007, 02:29:00 PM
This i actually agree with and i thought from the beginning. I wasn't in support of Blu-Ray being used for gaming unless it could match or exceed the speeds of current DVDs. Which is why i also praise Microsoft for sticking with standard DVD-9s.

I doubt Sony would let them use DVD-9s for gaming. It would place less worth on having to have a PS3 cause its games don't even use it (Blu-Ray). I think they should use DVD-9s and if the absolutely needed the space go Blu-Ray.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: incognegro on January 17, 2007, 02:40:00 PM
Sony won't allow it. End of story. Hell they already said no to the devs.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Marrvia on January 17, 2007, 02:45:00 PM
Of course there is always an advantage to having tons of space on a disc in that respect.  And I haven't played many PS3 games yet, but I haven't experienced any long load times.  I have seen tons of games on Xbox 360 with long load times even though the drive is fast.  Also, Xbox 360 has an annoyingly loud dvd drive and the blu-ray drive on PS3 is almost silent.  So personally, I think Blu-ray is better.  But of course my opinion can change if load times became really long on Blu-ray, so far I just haven't seen it.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: VariableElite on January 17, 2007, 03:38:00 PM
Blu-Ray for teh winz0r!!!1  laugh.gif

clicky clicky

Funny if it's true...
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: epsilon72 on January 17, 2007, 04:42:00 PM
Blu-ray shouldn't be used for games.

Now if someone could come up with a super-high-speed super-high-capacity flash storage medium and use it for games that would be the best (*thinks of the days of nintendo carts, wishes they had more capacity* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif))

This post has been edited by epsilon72: Jan 18 2007, 12:43 AM
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Kamasutra318 on January 17, 2007, 08:13:00 PM
QUOTE(epsilon72 @ Jan 17 2007, 06:13 PM) View Post

Now if someone could come up with a super-high-speed super-high-capacity flash storage medium and use it for games that would be the best (*thinks of the days of nintendo carts, wishes they had more capacity* biggrin.gif)

That wouldn't be too affordable though.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: bigjimmy on January 17, 2007, 09:14:00 PM
QUOTE
That wouldn't be too affordable though.


Lol i could imagine a 25gb cartridge.......flash memory FTW! lol
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Pheidias on January 17, 2007, 11:35:00 PM
Flash memory pffftt. We should put games on regular ddr memory. Then you can say godbye to loadtimes.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: VariableElite on January 18, 2007, 09:21:00 AM
QUOTE(Pheidias @ Jan 18 2007, 12:06 AM) View Post

Flash memory pffftt. We should put games on regular ddr memory. Then you can say godbye to loadtimes.


DDR is volatile.

Plus, 10GB of DDR would run between about $900 and $1200, depending on the quality.

When my games start costing a grand apiece, they better jack directly into my brain and be better than real life.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: heartofalion on January 18, 2007, 01:37:00 PM
QUOTE(VariableElite @ Jan 18 2007, 10:28 AM) *

When my games start costing a grand apiece, they better jack directly into my brain and be better than real life.



Damn right, i dunno it seems like blu ray has its pros and cons, but we wont know until there are titles taht are well actually good and take up alot of space so there isnt much redundancy to reduce load times
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Pheidias on January 18, 2007, 03:34:00 PM
Hey I thought it was speed we were after, and its not like trying to make a 25gb flash cartridge wouldn't cost you the same amount.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: VariableElite on January 18, 2007, 05:47:00 PM
QUOTE(Pheidias @ Jan 18 2007, 04:05 PM) View Post

Hey I thought it was speed we were after, and its not like trying to make a 25gb flash cartridge wouldn't cost you the same amount.


10GB of SD flash memory (5 2GB cards) runs about $85.

So 25GB, assuming you could find a game that had a legitimate use for it (no need to duplicate data, as there are no seek times from the head moving across the platter), would run a bit over $200.

Prices are from Newegg.com, btw, and assume that you can magically stack 5 SD cards on top of each other for 10GB.  laugh.gif
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: calderra on January 19, 2007, 09:39:00 AM
Is BluRay great for a 40+hour JRPG with over 10 hours of fully pre-rendered cutscenes? Ab-so-lutely. How about a new generation of expansive turn-based strategy games? Absolutely!

Is it optimal for... er... anything else? No.
The interesting point from this article is indeed that regular DVDs do fit in, and load on, a PS3 just fine. Devs could get better load times and higher profit margins instantly by shipping on DVD instead of BluRay.

Will Sony allow this? Hell no.
CAN they allow this? Not really. They staked the farm on BluRay, now this is another stake in their collective heart.

It just boggles the mind- DEVELOPERS WOULD GET FASTER LOAD TIMES IF THEY SHIPPED THEIR PS3 TITLES ON DVD. RIGHT NOW. ON THIS VERSION OF THE HARDWARE. (emphasis added).

That's a major f'n problem for Sony.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: incognegro on January 19, 2007, 12:17:00 PM
calderra, its funny u mentioned the jrpg thing cause I was thinking... if they need duplicate data to speed up seek times then if a game used near all the BD then wouldn't the load times be atrocious? A jrpg would suffer if it had to use all that data.

well atleast it will make the rpg seem longer...lol...isn't that part of the appeal to rpgs anyway...lol

This post has been edited by incognegro: Jan 19 2007, 08:19 PM
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Pheidias on January 20, 2007, 03:32:00 AM
I can't believe the blu-ray issue is still being beaten to death. Just its scratch resistant coating makes it better then using dvds. I still remember all the outcry and horror story's of scratched dvds on the 360.

I think blu-ray is a great medium for games, scratch resistant, great storage capacity and constant read speeds.

You are all focusing on the wrong thing. You are forgetting its actually the ps3 blu-ray drives slow read speed that is the problem its not the blu-ray discs.

So you can giving sony shit for using a slow Blu-ray drive but not for using blu-ray discs, IMO
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: bucko on January 20, 2007, 06:10:00 AM
Well I thought installing game assets to the hard drive were optional.

The only good thing about Blu-Ray atm in games is having 1080p cut-scenes.

The PS3 has been out in NTSC a good couple of months now, I don't here to much winning about load times. Though I have yet to try a PS3 here in the UK.

The reason all PS3 games are on Blu-Ray is to reduce production costs, so in turn movies will get cheaper to.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 22, 2007, 10:27:00 AM
QUOTE(Pheidias @ Jan 20 2007, 03:03 AM) View Post

I can't believe the blu-ray issue is still being beaten to death. Just its scratch resistant coating makes it better then using dvds. I still remember all the outcry and horror story's of scratched dvds on the 360.

I think blu-ray is a great medium for games, scratch resistant, great storage capacity and constant read speeds.

You are all focusing on the wrong thing. You are forgetting its actually the ps3 blu-ray drives slow read speed that is the problem its not the blu-ray discs.

So you can giving sony shit for using a slow Blu-ray drive but not for using blu-ray discs, IMO

That is irrelevant.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Pheidias on January 23, 2007, 04:09:00 AM
Heh I just got G.W Bush flashback,

Journalist: So Mr President now that they didn't find any WMDs how can you justify the occupation of Irak.

Bush: WMDs? that's irrelevant.

This post has been edited by Pheidias: Jan 23 2007, 12:10 PM
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Thraxen on January 23, 2007, 10:14:00 PM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Jan 22 2007, 11:34 AM) *

That is irrelevant.



Not really.  Sure, the main focus is the PS3, but the topic does say "Is Blu-ray" really a good medium for games?".  So, yes, BR is a good medium for games.  Was the time good right now?  Tough call... given the pricing I think it may have been a bit too early.  As far as speeds go, caching to the HDD is a viable option... one that even devs working on the 360 can't fully utilize thanks to the idiotic Core system.  It should also be pointed out that while the DVD drive in the 360 may be speedier than the BR drive in the PS3, it's f'ing LOUD.  The damn thing is obnoxious.  So, personally, I'd rather wait for a game to cache a bunch of data to the HDD than listen to a freaking loud drive the whole game anyway.  

Just my 2 cents.

This post has been edited by Thraxen: Jan 24 2007, 06:35 AM
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: incognegro on January 24, 2007, 06:08:00 AM
QUOTE
one that even devs working on the 360 can't fully utilize thanks to the idiotic Core system


what exactly is it they can't utilize?

QUOTE
It should also be pointed out that while the DVD drive in the 360 may be speedier than the BR drive in the PS3, it's f'ing LOUD


well thank you for pointing that out, sir. Its something I havent heard alot of ppl talking about lately? rolleyes.gif


Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: heartofalion on January 24, 2007, 12:29:00 PM
QUOTE(incognegro @ Jan 24 2007, 07:15 AM) *

what exactly is it they can't utilize?


i think he was referring to the fact that M$ wont let any devs create games that require a HDD because you can buy a core system without the HDD so not everyone has one. Whereas all PS3's do.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: Mr Invader on January 24, 2007, 08:23:00 PM
QUOTE(heartofalion @ Jan 24 2007, 01:00 PM) View Post

i think he was referring to the fact that M$ wont let any devs create games that require a HDD because you can buy a core system without the HDD so not everyone has one. Whereas all PS3's do.


not true, Final Fantasy XI

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Jan 23 2007, 10:45 PM) View Post

It should also be pointed out that while the DVD drive in the 360 may be speedier than the BR drive in the PS3, it's f'ing LOUD.  The damn thing is obnoxious.


Not all of them are, mine is a refurbished 360 made in 2005. It's not that loud and neither are my friends, so it varies on the generation.
Title: Is Blu-ray really a good medium for games?
Post by: calderra on January 25, 2007, 07:17:00 AM
Is BluRay a good medium for games? Theoretically yes, practically- no.

Theoretically: BluRay has more storage space, thud better handling HD content.
Practically: Slow access speeds and RAM concerns pretty much nuke any advantage and as we've seen result in not-so-HD textures becoming prevalant, except in the case of loading pre-rendered video a la JRPGs, perhaps. So those games are the only ones who will really take advantage of BluRay.

Theoretically: BluRay is scratch-resistant, and a future-proofed technology due to its focus on HDMI and (etc).
Practically: BluRay players cost 2x as much, BluRay discs are more expensive, HDMI delivers virtually nothing Component cables don't unless the movie industry implements the (CTR? DTN? I ahve no clue) flags, in which case the only difference is that Component would then be limited to 1080i output. Whoopie.

Theoretically: Developers can make better high-def experiences by using BluRay's greater storage.
Practically: Nobody's really using that much space (or if they are, they're Resistance and they're only using it because they can- compare to GOW), and nearly all developers could make the exact same game load faster and ship for cheaper developing on DVD instead of BluRay- even on the exact same PS3 hardware.

So disregarding the state of PS3 (which you can't, because Sony's the one pushing that connection, mind you) BluRay still isn't the best medium. It's still more expensive, and there's pretty much no need for it.

Is it "future-proofed"? Sure, but so is printing games on two discs, which worked fabulously for PlayStation in the past.