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OG Xbox Forums => Hardware Forums => General Hardware/Technical Chat => Topic started by: Xbox-Scene on December 22, 2006, 10:59:00 PM

Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Xbox-Scene on December 22, 2006, 10:59:00 PM
Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation Next Week
Posted by XanTium | December 23 00:59 EST

 
Michael Steil (alias 'mist') of the Xbox-Linux Project made a presentation for Google's "Tech Talks" on the 1st of December 2006. The video of the presentation has now been published online.
He talked in details about the Xbox(1) security, how it was hacked and what Microsoft tried to stop it. The presentation is similar to last year's 22C3 presentation (also by mist) and will explain the mistakes Microsoft made:
Quote

In late 2001, Microsoft released the Xbox, their first gaming console, to compete against Sony and Nintendo in the living room. As the real money is made with the games and not the consoles, Microsoft had to make sure (as much as they could) that nobody could play pirated games or use the machine for anything other than games. Although the original security design idea was a good one and has been copied a lot since then, Microsoft's inexperienced team made a variety of design, implementation, and policy mistakes. This talk first (re)constructs the design of the Xbox security system from Microsoft's point of view, and then deconstructs it from the hacker's point of view. As a bonus, the talk will feature some insights in the security system of the Xbox successor, the Xbox 360.

Michael Steil is the founder and maintainer of the Xbox-Linux Project. He oversaw most of the Xbox hacks and also contributed to hacking, reverse engineering and porting Linux on the Xbox.

In the last 2-3 minutes of the conference they mention the Xbox 360 too. No new information here ... except the announcement there will be a presentation on the 23C3 (23rd Chaos Communication Congress in Berlin, Germany) about hacking the Xbox360, PS3 and Wii.
After a bit of searching we can tell you the presentation will be held on December 28th 2006 at 20h30 local time at the 'Berliner Congress Center'. The 1-hour presentation called 'Console Hacking 2006' will be hosted by Felix Domke (alias tmbinc):
Quote

"Next Generation" gaming consoles should not be limited to games, they have powerful hardware which we want to exploit for our needs. The talk gives a hardware overview of each of the 3 consoles, an overview of their security systems, as well as an update on hacking the Xbox 360, which has been on the market for about a year.

The Microsoft Xbox 360, the Sony Playstation 3 and the Nintendo Wii belong to the seventh generation of gaming consoles, having GHz-class CPUs and hundreds of megabytes of RAM. While the Xbox 360 has been released roughly a year ago, and some hacking has already gone on, the Playstation 3 and the Wii will only be released in November 2006, so they will be brand-new at the time of the talk.

Usual news sources focus on the features useful for gaming - this talk of course will focus on what we hackers really need. It evaluates possible attack points to execute homebrew code and professional operating systems. For the two systems that have just been released, you certainly cannot expect a working hack, but the basics of the security system will be explained, and it will be compared to existing systems implemented by previous consoles.

Download: Console Hacking 2006 (PDF file - 67.0 KB)


Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: flashfreak on December 22, 2006, 10:16:00 PM
That video is an hour long...i might skip it, thought it looks like it'd be informative.

The next event thing looks interesting though
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: ILLusions0fGrander on December 22, 2006, 10:44:00 PM
the old video on hacking the xbox 1 was long as hell.. but i sat through most of it, pretty cool to get an all in one on how shit goes down and how they hacked it.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: psxpirate1 on December 22, 2006, 11:14:00 PM
I would like to see the focus on 360 shift from dvdrom modding to getting homebrew code running on Xbox 360 once and for all. If you check the forum posts, all the homebrew code and modchip topics have died. All dvdrom. We need to start raising more questions on how this may be accomplished so more experienced eyes can view these interesting topics/debates and give some input into the scene.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: epsilon72 on December 22, 2006, 11:47:00 PM
QUOTE(psxpirate1 @ Dec 22 2006, 11:21 PM) View Post
I would like to see the focus on 360 shift from dvdrom modding to getting homebrew code running on Xbox 360 once and for all. If you check the forum posts, all the homebrew code and modchip topics have died. All dvdrom. We need to start raising more questions on how this may be accomplished so more experienced eyes can view these interesting topics/debates and give some input into the scene.

Just my 2 cents.


True.  I would really like to see a real hack for the 360.  I'd help, but I don't know how to debug or program anything...sad.gif
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Elusive hacker on December 23, 2006, 12:45:00 AM
really informative video. kinda long, but still a good watch  smile.gif
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: NoFace on December 23, 2006, 12:45:00 AM
I love the guys comment at the end about the xbox 360 security, made the whole video worth watching
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Maverick-DBZ- on December 23, 2006, 01:50:00 AM
QUOTE(NoFace @ Dec 22 2006, 11:52 PM) View Post

I love the guys comment at the end about the xbox 360 security, made the whole video worth watching



Same here, it was worth hearing the hour long talk. He really complimented MS on their security system for Xbox360. Over a year now and no "major" hacks yet.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: ZX3Junglist on December 23, 2006, 02:25:00 AM
This lecture was mesmerizing for an aspiring systems designer. I definitely appreciated the way he constructed the mindset of microsoft, then of the hackers, then pointed out microsoft's mistakes.

It would be interesting to know what company is benefitting from this genius. He's a german, and working at a fortune 500 company that does kernel development. But it seems pretty hush. I suppose his employer may not want that sort of publicity. I've gone on to read some of his stories at Pagetable.com, and he certainly has some neat ideas on CISC architecture in general.

I give the presentation 2 nerd thumbs up
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Textbook on December 23, 2006, 02:53:00 AM
I just watched that hour long presentation word for word.  I loved it.

While some (most) of the stuff was way over my head, he does do a relatively good job of dumbing it down and adding some humor to the presentation.

I definitely learned some new interesting things.

The dillema MS faced with turning off the secret rom and cpu at the same time was great .. "we'll just crash the cpu!"

And when mist did the checksum list, and just left an empty bullet for where fonts should have been.  laugh.gif

Great stuff.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Mabec on December 23, 2006, 04:40:00 AM
Great presentation, really interesting.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: PCBUILDERCHRIS on December 23, 2006, 05:49:00 AM
i havnt been touching my 360 lately im waiting on some mods to be figured out (want it to be 100% healthy in perfect working condition with minimal dash updates

meanwhile i just go next door and wear someone elses out
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: twistedsymphony on December 23, 2006, 06:17:00 AM
I'd love to hear his upcoming next gen console presentation...  I really hope he touches on the controller security system being used...
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: youloseagain on December 23, 2006, 06:39:00 AM
QUOTE
I would like to see the focus on 360 shift from dvdrom modding to getting homebrew code running on Xbox 360 once and for all. If you check the forum posts, all the homebrew code and modchip topics have died. All dvdrom. We need to start raising more questions on how this may be accomplished so more experienced eyes can view these interesting topics/debates and give some input into the scene.

Just my 2 cents.


Totally agree. Any luck on the shader front?
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: thebroken on December 23, 2006, 07:32:00 AM
This guys intelligence level on the Xbox security system is just amazing. I sat through the whole thing though alot was over my head. He has a great understanding of the information. And is able to explain it to the masses which is truly amazing.

This post has been edited by thebroken: Dec 23 2006, 03:32 PM
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: yaazz on December 23, 2006, 09:33:00 AM
I wonder why MS didn't just use RC5....

I also cant beleive ms forgot to remove all the secret rom code on the flash chip after debugging .... I would imagine someone got fired over that one!

I wonder if we can just roll over to 0x00 in memory on 360 too laugh.gif

Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: tomgreen99200 on December 23, 2006, 10:52:00 AM
Fight the "man" !  Push him Down !!   FIght, Fight, Fight !
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Trex666 on December 23, 2006, 11:57:00 AM
Great video, really informative and enjoyable.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: titaniumtwix on December 23, 2006, 02:13:00 PM
QUOTE(sil @ Dec 23 2006, 03:11 PM) View Post

what other games were exploitable ?
he showed 4 games there
007, ma, sc, ?


he also said that there are other games that are exploitable but unpublished as so
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: northwestjuggalos on December 23, 2006, 04:00:00 PM
that video was pretty sweet, I couldnt sit at my computer desk to watch it so I loaded it up on XBMC smile.gif
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: birchi on December 23, 2006, 04:58:00 PM
Very informative video, I watched it through the Opera web browser on my Wii.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: jimbobjim on December 23, 2006, 05:15:00 PM
I loved the vid too, there are very intelligent and dedicated people out there that make all of our lives that little bit better... this guy is one of them.
Most of it was way over my head, but was interesting nonetheless
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Juniorman030790 on December 23, 2006, 06:37:00 PM
I agree with you guys, quite a good watch. I feel smarterer than i did before i watched this here video. tongue.gif

Hopefully one day I can be this 1337.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Chan163 on December 23, 2006, 07:35:00 PM
I don't see where the problem lies for M$ giving us free access for homebrew software. They ssem to consider homebrew more dangerous than piracy. We can already copy games and play them, even on XBoxLive I guess (heard nothing about bans or stuff), so how much worse could real access to the hardware be? If someone WANTS to play pirated games, he can already....
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Naquadah on December 23, 2006, 07:58:00 PM
That was good, wasnt planning on watching the whole thing but i did, that was funny when bunnie analyzed the secret rom found the old code, and the whole dumped the flash rom, put on his site, got a call from ms lawyers, took it down from his site thing biggrin.gif
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: bigjimmy on December 23, 2006, 10:37:00 PM
Well i was board and watched the entire video, and i must say i learnt heaps about how the xbox's securtiy system works and how they got around it.......

The most interesting thing I learnt was that the D0 point on a modchip is just a ground.......for all these years I assumed it was a data line or something........but it just grounded a pin on the flash chip to make the xbox think it didnt have one.....
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: PedrosPad on December 23, 2006, 11:32:00 PM
QUOTE(psxpirate1 @ Dec 23 2006, 08:21 AM) View Post

I would like to see the focus on 360 shift from dvdrom modding to getting homebrew code running on Xbox 360 once and for all.

It was interesting to note that most of the recommendations to M$ at the tail end of the presentation appear to have been followed on the X360.

One advice was to know and enguage with your 'enemy'.
X360 can play videos, etc, either via MCE or direct WMV playback - so the need for XBMC is lessened.
XBL Arcade provides lots of retro game classics - the bulk of traditional homebrew output!
And with XNA, now homebrew development is possible - albeit in a controlled environment.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: sdeens on December 24, 2006, 04:03:00 AM
what they need to do is leak the method to trap the flash memory chips (TSOP style) of the 360's BIOS using a JTAG method..i.e JKEYs or EJTAG or JTAGER programs.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: jimbobjim on December 24, 2006, 04:08:00 AM
Yeah!!! what he said  laugh.gif
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: DMAddict on December 24, 2006, 10:32:00 AM
I read the Bunnie papers and this presentation makes is a lot more understandable. IMO the XB1 will go down as the most developed, hackable console in history. I don't think there will be another console that is as exploitable and has so much development in terms of homebrew for it.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: bucko on December 24, 2006, 01:31:00 PM
Just watched it, I've watched pretty much every video hes done on Xbox 1 security.

Looking at my 1.1 and 1.6 mobos there's certainly a lot of changes, funny how they can both still run homebrew to this day.

Well the thought went into my head, Visor is going back a long way, maybe hes now working at m$ security? Maybe it's why the 360 hasn't been hacked yet?

I know Bunnie is not working there.

I forgotten the guys name, but one of the Xbox Linux team guys don't live to far away from me which is cool to know jester.gif.

Also Hacking the Xbox book by Bunnie is a great read!
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: seanp2500 on December 27, 2006, 02:24:00 PM
I thought that this video was great.  I can't wait to hear more on next gen hacking.  I hope another video is posted for the new presentation.  I find the XBOX 360 lineup weak.  I liked Gears of War and Oblivion thats bout it.  My XBOX is getting serious use still.  I love playing XMugen especially.  I have high hopes for XNA the above comments are correct.  They will be selective on what is allowed through this development medium (though I was impressed at an XNA demo I saw on gametrailers)  While I do applaud Microsft's efforts to um "listen" to the scene I think the quality of XBOX live arcade compared to something like ZNESBOX or Neogenesis is laughable.  I also think the homebrew emu is much superior to the WII's downloads after playing around with that.  The modded XBOX (large hd a must) is much revered by me and my friends.  In my opinion no commercially released product for the home compares.  It is incredible when one takes into account XBOX media center.  I mean that thing plays everything from wmv to avi to mkv to bin it is unreal.  I am so happy I got curious one day and did my own softmod after extensive reading.  I thought the funniest part was when the fellow in the audience chimed in that he had worked on the 007 team and knew the coder who left the exploit there.  It was priceless when the narrator said yeah we would like to talk to him lol!

One day the 360 will go down.  This vid taught me alot.  If anything it instills my faith that there must be a backdoor to the security somewhere.  I think the hack so far of playing backups is kinda lame.  Just because of the sub par library.  Now when homebrew boots or linux then that 360 thing will be worth my purchase. Till then I wait patiently for the great minds that I know are tackling this to bless us with the fruits of their labor.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: grogger13 on December 29, 2006, 01:02:00 PM
has there been any talk about the meeting on the 28th.  Will the conference info be released?
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: Poida^ on December 29, 2006, 06:51:00 PM
I thought this video was great.  Very insightful on the amount of work done to the Xbox1 on both ends.
The cheaper solution for M$ breaking the console market became an expensive one for them in the end.  
The mistakes are pretty clear, using legacy hardware made hacking much easier.  
Xbox360 fixed up alot of these problems... and they have learnt from their mistakes.  
Its only a matter of time before people find loopholes.
Title: Google 'Tech Talks' Mist on Xbox1 Security - 360 Presentation
Post by: grogger13 on December 30, 2006, 12:55:00 AM
one thing that peole over look if that even though Microsoft had a very hackable console, so did sony.  With playstation you could run games off a harddrive with a simple memory card save hack.  Sony had already put out a console that was modded readily(ps1) and their following console could still be hacked.  

I just hope that the 360 is hacked soon.  The reason the xbox has so much life in it is the mods.