Post by: Xbox-Scene on August 01, 2007, 04:33:00 PM
Federal Agents Go After Gaming Pirates: Several US Modchip Stores Raided Posted by XanTium | August 1 17:57 EST | News Category: Xbox_Xbox360 |
| From news.yahoo.com: Quote
We have strong indications that several big US modchip resellers were hit by the raid, but we don't have exact details yet. Full Story: news.yahoo.com |
Post by: Worseley on August 01, 2007, 04:05:00 PM
Post by: crosseye on August 01, 2007, 04:12:00 PM
Post by: Allen626 on August 01, 2007, 04:14:00 PM
Post by: handles25 on August 01, 2007, 04:17:00 PM
This post has been edited by handles25: Aug 1 2007, 11:18 PM
Post by: bucko on August 01, 2007, 04:19:00 PM
It's Legal to sell Xbox 1 mod chips if they have cromwell linux bootloader on them.
So you can't play backups then so I hate people that immediately think mod chips cause the industry to lose money. They don't, they allow homebrew, something which corporations don't allow fully then we wouldn't need mod chips.
This post has been edited by bucko: Aug 1 2007, 11:21 PM
Post by: Loy on August 01, 2007, 04:23:00 PM
Post by: handles25 on August 01, 2007, 03:47:00 PM
QUOTE(bucko @ Aug 1 2007, 11:19 PM) 
I hope AppleGuru is ok I'm sure he sells stuff in America as well.
It's Legal to sell Xbox 1 mod chips if they have cromwell linux bootloader on them.
So you can't play backups then so I hate people that immediately think mod chips cause the industry to lose money. They don't, they allow homebrew, something which corporations don't allow fully then we wouldn't need mod chips.
Man I think the first batch of chips I got years and years ago had cromwell. After that every batch I got had more shady bios's on them. Mind you I'm sure they never expected this.
Post by: snart on August 01, 2007, 03:48:00 PM
QUOTE(Allen626 @ Aug 1 2007, 10:14 PM)
I thought it was legal to sell modchips as long as there was not hacked copyrighted code on it?
Almost. It's illegal to sell any item that circumvents copy protection.
Post by: handles25 on August 01, 2007, 03:49:00 PM
QUOTE(Loy @ Aug 1 2007, 11:23 PM)
i hear Otbmods and mcm
Otbmods for sure I would say. Try to visit the page.
Post by: 0794 on August 01, 2007, 03:50:00 PM
QUOTE(bucko @ Aug 1 2007, 05:19 PM)
It's Legal to sell Xbox 1 mod chips if they have cromwell linux bootloader on them.
exactly, which frustrates me since those chips and not illegal and should not be permanently confiscated in the raid but we all know that the authorities do not understand technology in the first place and would not know what is really illegal or not...
Post by: Loy on August 01, 2007, 04:27:00 PM
Post by: greenday54261 on August 01, 2007, 04:01:00 PM
I'd say they got hit.This REALLY does not bode well... and to think I was about to get back into Xbox1 modding. Could be a while now.
Post by: derailed on August 01, 2007, 04:02:00 PM
Post by: Werks on August 01, 2007, 04:39:00 PM
Post by: Rustmonkey on August 01, 2007, 04:41:00 PM
Well... time to get rid of my consoles....
Post by: Werks on August 01, 2007, 04:43:00 PM
This post has been edited by Werks: Aug 1 2007, 11:45 PM
Post by: Altima NEO on August 01, 2007, 04:23:00 PM
Post by: hassle on August 01, 2007, 05:02:00 PM
Post by: commandersafi on August 01, 2007, 04:26:00 PM
Post by: BennyBou on August 01, 2007, 05:03:00 PM
Post by: BoNg420 on August 01, 2007, 05:03:00 PM
You can buy a modchip and use it for homebrew or use it for piracy.
You can buy a gun/knife/other weapon and use it for sport/hunting or you can kill people with it.
Should just stop selling weapons too while they are at it. Murders hurt more than piracy of rich companies.
This post has been edited by BoNg420: Aug 2 2007, 12:04 AM
Post by: Werks on August 01, 2007, 05:04:00 PM
QUOTE(hassle @ Aug 1 2007, 05:02 PM) 
wow, im moving over seas where copyright means crap.
Canada or China best 2 choices
Post by: TheIrishLad on August 01, 2007, 04:33:00 PM
Post by: rooter75 on August 01, 2007, 05:16:00 PM
Post by: Werks on August 01, 2007, 05:21:00 PM
QUOTE(rooter75 @ Aug 1 2007, 05:16 PM)
Werks sorry to here about the bad fortune. Money always talks and enforcement of DMCA law is not a moral issue to clean up the town, it is all about the benjamins and pressure from the companies that have them all!
Well Said!
Its time to move on anyway.
Post by: C o s m o on August 01, 2007, 05:35:00 PM
Post by: Rustmonkey on August 01, 2007, 05:03:00 PM
QUOTE(C o s m o @ Aug 1 2007, 05:35 PM)
Given the circumstances, please don't ask for personal identities.
Sorry,
I meant to say "are you associated with one of the stores"... didn't want personal logistics
Post by: pirichios on August 01, 2007, 05:39:00 PM
Post by: poopsickle on August 01, 2007, 05:41:00 PM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on August 01, 2007, 05:13:00 PM
QUOTE(pirichios @ Aug 1 2007, 05:39 PM)
wow these are some interesting times, i wonder what hsdemonz has to say about this.His opinions on subject matters like these always interest me
I'm waiting for a more finalized list of downed shops before I comment fully. All I can say is that I'm not shocked.. but at the same time my heart goes out to some of those shops. While I don't agree with the US laws, and specifically the DCMA, it is the law in that country.
It's always been risky for US shops while working and operating a shop under that piece of legislation.
Guess if nothing else I've found a new topic to consider and write about on the blog.
What a shitty week so far.
Post by: wantin2mod on August 01, 2007, 05:13:00 PM
Everything that has a beginning has an end.
Post by: SueMiBlitch on August 01, 2007, 05:58:00 PM
allowing people to run homebrew on consoles has made my xbox probably my favorite entertainment item short of my guitar
homebrew lets people spend time tapping their creative juices and expands the capabilites of consoles far beyong anything that companies can create... this should not be illegal
i have no sympathy for people who get busted for installing chips and throwing in copied games... these people deserve to get caught and shut down
the US government needs to stop paying attention to the special interest groups that lobby for these though laws and examine it themselves and make the appropriate changes. XS is a perfect example of illustrating how deep the homebrew community is and that most people aren't pro-distribution of copyrighted software
Post by: SkiDragon on August 01, 2007, 05:24:00 PM
Post by: biscoito on August 01, 2007, 05:40:00 PM
Post by: lostboyz on August 01, 2007, 05:42:00 PM
Post by: jimbobjim on August 01, 2007, 05:56:00 PM
I wonder how they feel busting someone for a crime they too have commited and not been punished for.
Post by: Alex548 on August 01, 2007, 06:15:00 PM
QUOTE(C o s m o @ Aug 1 2007, 04:35 PM)
Given the circumstances, please don't ask for personal identities.
Probably not wise to be blurting out webshop names here either. This is a public thread that can be seen by ANYONE.
Post by: prplehz on August 01, 2007, 06:51:00 PM
Post by: fantom_kode on August 01, 2007, 06:25:00 PM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on August 01, 2007, 07:12:00 PM
QUOTE(lostboyz @ Aug 1 2007, 06:18 PM)
its sad, it was so convenient ordering from otb and mcm now I might have to buy from divineo
I echo that.
Post by: ILLusions0fGrander on August 01, 2007, 07:51:00 PM
pretty sad actually that it comes down to this.
Take all the people making money of pirated software to jail, leave the honest business people alone.
I'm assuming they pay taxes on their business, with legitimate products, which also get taxed, and they get infiltrated?
lame.
Post by: fierygt on August 01, 2007, 08:06:00 PM
This post has been edited by fierygt: Aug 2 2007, 03:12 AM
Post by: Neoistheone2000 on August 01, 2007, 08:10:00 PM
This is all thanks to MICROSOFT.
QUOTE(fierygt @ Aug 1 2007, 10:06 PM)
Whew...good to know murderers, pedophiles, drug dealers, etc. can all sleep soundly, knowing the feds are using their resources going after the REAL criminals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
Nicely said.
Just a random thought, I hear about this and a Bridge falls in Minneapolis, MN (one of the Targeted City's)
This post has been edited by Neoistheone2000: Aug 2 2007, 03:14 AM
Post by: Db53 on August 01, 2007, 08:22:00 PM
Post by: Black Sheep on August 01, 2007, 07:48:00 PM
QUOTE(fierygt @ Aug 2 2007, 03:06 AM)
Whew...good to know murderers, pedophiles, drug dealers, corrupt politicians, etc. can all sleep soundly, knowing the feds are using their resources going after the REAL criminals.
What's extremely odd to me is who exactly is the victim of this "crime" anyway? If this was about software piracy, then the victims would be the software publishers and creators, but since they're targetting "chips", then who is claiming the loss? Is this a joint-suit, or an independant orginazation that's going to reap the "loss recovery" that hasn't necessarily occured?
Post by: MECKANIK on August 01, 2007, 07:48:00 PM
.
Post by: mp5user on August 01, 2007, 08:31:00 PM
This post has been edited by mp5user: Aug 2 2007, 03:35 AM
Post by: Lush on August 01, 2007, 08:41:00 PM
Post by: evans112682 on August 01, 2007, 08:26:00 PM
QUOTE(mp5user @ Aug 1 2007, 10:31 PM)
MN??? That's were I am (yeah 6 dead from I-35W bridge.) Llama was probably a target, I hope they make out okay. Is a matter of criminal or civil law, or both?
Llamma may have been, though they dont sell chips on there website. i odered a case, smds, and other junk tuseday night and have heard nothing from them today (wednesday). i ordered just a week ago and they answer all my email, and today no response on my order or emails (even tried calling)....???????? hope alls okay, just spent $90.00 bucks. never bought a chip, just want my order!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we should list shops we think are hit (the feds wont). whats the harm if the damage is done?
Post by: Altima NEO on August 01, 2007, 09:09:00 PM
Post by: evans112682 on August 01, 2007, 09:22:00 PM
QUOTE
"Illicit devices like the ones targeted today are created with one purpose in mind, subverting copyright protections,"
think this includes the sammy dvd drive, connectivity kits, and blaster, etc???
Post by: gordo1111 on August 01, 2007, 08:54:00 PM
QUOTE(Lush @ Aug 1 2007, 07:41 PM)
its great to live in canada... we don't care about copyrights and piracy here... =)
Marijuana too
but I don't smoke. The FBI could come too Canada too. Gotta make my xbox stock again.
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 01, 2007, 09:15:00 PM
QUOTE(Altima NEO @ Aug 1 2007, 11:09 PM)
From the sounds of that other newspost, it seems Nintendo was likely behind all the pressure on the feds.
I can confirm that 4 installers I've spoken too who got hit were all hit after servicing a Wii. I can also confirm that these same shops DO NOT sell pirated games.
reading the ICE press release they make a point to say that these devices are being "smuggled" into the USA.
for those that don't know Wii modchips are nothing more than microcontrollers... Atmel and Microchip both have American branches and sell products in the USA, they're nothing but MCUs found in everyday items from TV remotes to RC cars to computers and other consumer electronics.
the code doesn't include any pirated material it was written by someone and in most cases is either not copywritten at all or protected under the GPL meaning it's freely distributed. The rest of the chip is just a harmless wafer of silicone and copper and all the installers are doing is attaching these individually legal components to the console.
A micro controller is no more a copyright circumvention device as a laptop is...
I really hope that these shops band together and take this all the way to the courts.
Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's right and the court system is the place where bad laws can be found unconstitutional.
The only questionable component of a modchip is the code and IMO code should be protected under freespeach.
I agree with those that mentioned the US government needs to stop listening to special interest lobbiests.... they seem to be shitting all over the technology liberties and dramatically damaging advances in technology in the process. I don't know what's worse the souless lobbiests and corporations that push this stuff into law, the ignorant politicians that are bought off so easily, or the apathetic citizens who are oblivious to what's going on and waste their time battling issues of gay marriage, the use of the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, and other truly meaningless crap while the rest of our freedoms are taken out back an executed one by one.
Post by: appleguru on August 01, 2007, 09:19:00 PM
I should have seen the writing on the wall... But alas, hindsight is 20/20.
Post by: pirichios on August 01, 2007, 10:01:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Aug 2 2007, 05:51 AM)
I can confirm that 4 installers I've spoken too who got hit were all hit after servicing a Wii. I can also confirm that these same shops DO NOT sell pirated games.
reading the ICE press release they make a point to say that these devices are being "smuggled" into the USA.
for those that don't know Wii modchips are nothing more than microcontrollers... Atmel and Microchip both have American branches and sell products in the USA, they're nothing but MCUs found in everyday items from TV remotes to RC cars to computers and other consumer electronics.
the code doesn't include any pirated material it was written by someone and in most cases is either not copywritten at all or protected under the GPL meaning it's freely distributed. The rest of the chip is just a harmless wafer of silicone and copper and all the installers are doing is attaching these individually legal components to the console.
A micro controller is no more a copyright circumvention device as a laptop is...
I really hope that these shops band together and take this all the way to the courts.
Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's right and the court system is the place where bad laws can be found unconstitutional.
The only questionable component of a modchip is the code and IMO code should be protected under freespeach.
I agree with those that mentioned the US government needs to stop listening to special interest lobbiests.... they seem to be shitting all over the technology liberties and dramatically damaging advances in technology in the process. I don't know what's worse the souless lobbiests and corporations that push this stuff into law, the ignorant politicians that are bought off so easily, or the apathetic citizens who are oblivious to what's going on and waste their time battling issues of gay marriage, the use of the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, and other truly meaningless crap while the rest of our freedoms are taken out back an executed one by one.
the problem is finding a lawyer thats informed and educated as you are twisted. if these shops had one they would kick ass in court (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)
Post by: MicroMods on August 01, 2007, 09:50:00 PM
QUOTE(Lush @ Aug 1 2007, 10:41 PM)
its great to live in canada... we don't care about copyrights and piracy here... =)
No one gives a shit. Sorry to be blunt, but this is about the US. No one cares about Canada or how you can't get in trouble for modding your box. The same goes for anyone else typing "well, atleast I live in [random country]". You're not contributing to this thread and as the first sentence bluntly states, no one gives a shit.
That being said, what's happened today has struck me as weird in a few different ways. Considering the original Xbox is the majority of the Modchip/Homebrew scene, why was the raid timed now? Why not while the Xbox was in it's "prime"? I'm thinking it's to scare off R&D and sales on other consoles.
The other thing that strikes me weird is, from what I've always understood modchips are absolutely and completely LEGAL. It isn't until you flash the BIOS (that's not included) that makes it illegal. It seems like the rules were changed on-the-fly just because the DMCA has more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese.
If you're as unhappy about this as I am, let's fight it. Don't let these people try and scare you and trample on your rights. Let's get the community together and those affected by this and let's fight it.
Post by: decline1822 on August 01, 2007, 10:39:00 PM
There really is no good reason to mod a Wii unless you want to pirate games. There isn't any homebrew for the wii or anything (you can boot Gamecube homebrew, but who cares about that?)
Post by: MicroMods on August 01, 2007, 10:08:00 PM
QUOTE(decline1822 @ Aug 2 2007, 12:39 AM)
Honestly, if this was all about modding the Wii, I can see why they did it.
There really is no good reason to mod a Wii unless you want to pirate games. There isn't any homebrew for the wii or anything (you can boot Gamecube homebrew, but who cares about that?)
Your logic is flawed, you're giving these people (if you're nice enough to call them that) room to do what they please.
Just BECAUSE you can run pirated games on it does not mean that's what it's used for. This is like saying it's okay to arrest someone because they have a gun and could POSSIBLY use it in a harmful manner. As far as I remember, there was no homebrew scene when the Enigmah was released on the Xbox either. It was used solely for "backed-up" games. It wasn't until the technology hit and was used by more that it caught on and the homebrew scene was born.
We have the right to do whatever we want with OUR electronic items, and if people won't stand up and fight for their rights than they deserve to be bullied around. I however, wont. These people and the laws they write are traitors and enemies of democracy and all that this country is "for". Don't let them hold you on a leash.
Post by: itchy on August 01, 2007, 10:23:00 PM
QUOTE(decline1822 @ Aug 2 2007, 05:39 AM)
Honestly, if this was all about modding the Wii, I can see why they did it.
There really is no good reason to mod a Wii unless you want to pirate games. There isn't any homebrew for the wii or anything (you can boot Gamecube homebrew, but who cares about that?)
Yup, it's a little flawed. Nintendo's more geared for younger kids than the other consoles. Younger kids are more likely to damage discs during handling. Smart parents would get those consoles modded and give their kid the game on a 20 cent media, vs $40 disc.
Post by: majik655 on August 01, 2007, 10:35:00 PM
Also..
MicroMods - this raid was not because of the xbox.. mainly it was for the wii... BUT while they are at it.. they might as well go for all that they find.
decline1822 - who cares about booting GC Homebrew?? well I do.. since there is a media player for it..
guess what one of the uses are for .. for me installing a wii modchip.. TO PLAY MEDIA FILES ON IT!!!
ALMOST EVERY item anywhere sold and/or purchased can be used for BAD intentions..
Think of anything.. such as
alarm clock - set off a device (bomb) or just wake me up in the morning on time
slim jim - break into a car or save my dumbass because I locked my keys in my car
pc virus (trojans) - screw my computer or use it another way like opening backdoors to my pc to use remotely and to controll (back office anyone lol)
Point is.. we as people or citizens need to make this a major part of who and why we vote for people in office.. because as we are seeing.. if laws are made that can HINDER this way of life.. then basically nothing is stopping the "government" as a whole from making us do whatever they want us to do the way they want it done. Dress this way.. buy these items... use them this way ONLY!
The other problem is why is it not illegal for microsoft to be in existence... because we know for a fact..
Gates himself has backwards engineered things to get where he is today.. you can't backwards engineer things without using someones code for at least a second.. or circumventing security to LEARN how it works.
IF we are not allowed to do this.. then we will not thrive technology wise. EVERYONE looks and learns by everyone, we would also not be able to have competition.. clones... or what have you.
Post by: Altima NEO on August 01, 2007, 11:10:00 PM
Post by: shadowth on August 01, 2007, 11:10:00 PM
They helped me a lot, specially when I ventured myself into the PS2 modding.I am truly sorry for those guys. It is really a shame something like this happened.
Post by: omega2468 on August 01, 2007, 11:15:00 PM
Post by: SpankIt on August 01, 2007, 11:31:00 PM
QUOTE(Lush @ Aug 1 2007, 08:41 PM)
its great to live in canada... we don't care about copyrights and piracy here... =)
It's attitudes like that that will have our rights for modchips taken away.
Post by: asnagrim on August 01, 2007, 11:58:00 PM
It is completely legal to install/use mods over here except for 360s.
Click here for info on australian modchip laws
Thats how it should be for the rest of the world.
Post by: xlordx on August 02, 2007, 12:14:00 AM
Post by: beandip on August 02, 2007, 01:43:00 AM
Post by: Alex548 on August 02, 2007, 01:59:00 AM
QUOTE(appleguru @ Aug 1 2007, 08:55 PM)
Yes, OTB Mods was included in the raids. I'm out of the country atm, so I wasn't around for the raid... but it sounds like they took everything.
Did you update your site or did "they?"
Post by: cbs071379 on August 02, 2007, 03:13:00 AM
Post by: xess on August 02, 2007, 06:19:00 AM
QUOTE(cbs071379 @ Aug 2 2007, 10:49 AM)
does anyone think they are going to go after the consumers too or just the sellers?
I think only the suppliers will be targeted. They wont waste time and money chasing small fish. Will they?
Post by: Rustmonkey on August 02, 2007, 06:31:00 AM
So you said they took EVERYTHING??? Including your inventory that WASNT modchips? Thats bogus - how the hell does a faceplate infringe on copyrights?
Post by: Ceazer on August 02, 2007, 06:43:00 AM
QUOTE(xess @ Aug 2 2007, 08:55 AM)
I think only the suppliers will be targeted. They wont waste time and money chasing small fish. Will they?
could be DTV all over again
i hope and pray its not but never underestimate the greed of big business ....Post by: Havok on August 02, 2007, 06:49:00 AM
QUOTE(brocher @ Aug 2 2007, 07:03 AM)
Didn't the guy who ran isonews get jailed for 6 months a few years back for selling mod chips (note, not pirated games)?
Of course, they jailed him on whatever they could, just wanted to shut the site down and teach a lesson to sceners, but it shows that you can be found guilty of selling mod chips. If I'm remembering correctly that is.
And the site was back up in 2 days...
I don't think he went to jail.. they just took over the site...
Post by: appleguru on August 02, 2007, 07:10:00 AM
QUOTE(Rustmonkey @ Aug 2 2007, 09:07 AM)
@ Appleguru
So you said they took EVERYTHING??? Including your inventory that WASNT modchips? Thats bogus - how the hell does a faceplate infringe on copyrights?
I honestly don't know yet; I'm a few thousand miles away from home.. I saw the warrant though, and it was ridiculously broad... So I really wouldn't put it past them... but they probably left (most of) them...
Post by: death trap on August 02, 2007, 07:31:00 AM
I feel for you poor fuckers in the states, you got war on everything.
war on terror
war on drugs
war on piracy
war to make sure everyone
what's next war on fluffy bunnies?
Your country is fucked up, i would be afraid to go outside in case i got involve in one of your wars, or converted by some TV evangelists.
You people need to rise up and wipe out the rich right wing christian fuckwits that run your contry.
If the French can do it im sure you can.
Post by: appleguru on August 02, 2007, 07:39:00 AM
QUOTE(Alex548 @ Aug 2 2007, 04:35 AM)
Did you update your site or did "they?"
I did.
Post by: Chancer on August 02, 2007, 07:59:00 AM
QUOTE
we should list shops we think are hit (the feds wont). whats the harm if the damage is done?
Don't bother, because the ones that were not hit could become targets if we start compiling lists.
Note
This is not a discussion about piracy if you read the whole thing (we are not discussing the pros/cons of piracy). Nor is it open season to admit to piracy. Do not turn it that way and do not confess to piracy here. Seems I have to keep repeating this.
@Apple. Hope it all turns out ok for you mate.
Post by: omega2468 on August 02, 2007, 08:09:00 AM
Post by: appleguru on August 02, 2007, 08:16:00 AM
QUOTE(omega2468 @ Aug 2 2007, 10:45 AM)
are they only going after sellers or buyers too?
The applicable law here (The USC 17 § 1201 and § 1204) says that it's illegal to "manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in" devices and services whose primary function is to circumvent a copy protection measure on a digital work.
And so, if you consider a modchip as falling under that definition (and I do NOT; clearly others think otherwise...), then it's illegal to make, sell, or offer to anyone else. But buying them (at least domestically where no importing is involved) is not covered, and is therefore (technically anyways) legal.
Post by: blame canada on August 02, 2007, 08:33:00 AM
QUOTE(pdx98 @ Aug 2 2007, 03:19 AM)
I know probably 20 people with modded xbox1's. They all use them for playing pirated games. I think its fair to say most people mod their xbox to play pirated games...
I'm just glad I backed out of modding xbox's and wii's in the last year (I had quite a bit of modding traffic, probably enough to raise a flag at feds. I never once however sold pirated games)
Btw @ apple,
Why were you downgraded to "members"?
Post by: Havok on August 02, 2007, 09:47:00 AM
QUOTE(Chancer @ Aug 2 2007, 10:35 AM)
Don't bother, because the ones that were not hit could become targets if we start compiling lists.
I hardly think us having a list would be different than the one the goverment already has...
Any ones mentioned here would be the very public ones... public is visible thats the bottom line.
I am not advocating creating a list... just stating my opinion... besides for the fact is any list would be speculation as other sites may be down just for the fact of trying to keep themselves safe.
Post by: Chancer on August 02, 2007, 09:56:00 AM
QUOTE
Btw @ apple,
Why were you downgraded to "members"?
Why were you downgraded to "members"?
Think about it. If they took his PC equipment there is a chance they could log in here with full Mod Privs
QUOTE
I hardly think us having a list would be different than the one the goverment already has...
Any ones mentioned here would be the very public ones... public is visible thats the bottom line.
Any ones mentioned here would be the very public ones... public is visible thats the bottom line.
And the point in taking that chance?
Lists are compiled from all sorts of information and however small the chance there is no point in a list that could potentially jeopardise someones business.
Post by: itchy on August 02, 2007, 11:36:00 AM
Post by: Loy on August 02, 2007, 11:38:00 AM
Post by: itchy on August 02, 2007, 11:50:00 AM
Post by: xess on August 02, 2007, 11:58:00 AM
QUOTE(itchy @ Aug 2 2007, 07:26 PM)
heck, if they want to arrest someone, they'll do it anyway.
Exactly. If he is to be arrested then would they not just go to his store/home and pick him up?
Post by: Eksyte on August 02, 2007, 12:17:00 PM
QUOTE(quenlin @ Aug 2 2007, 07:38 PM)
Clearly modchips should be illegal. Why? Because even though it is possible to use it only for 100% legal purposes, the OVERWHELMING majority of people use them for piracy. Unfortunately, thats just the way it is. If you created something that was used for illegal purposes 98% of the time, can you honestly say that it should be legal, just because a microscopic amount of people wouldn't use it illegally? Of course not. Sometimes you have to examine something that's in a gray area, and just make a call on something. Making them illegal is just the right thing to do.
I disagree. The people who don't engange in software theft shouldn't lose out because other people do.
Post by: coldasice on August 02, 2007, 01:17:00 PM
Post by: Albut35 on August 02, 2007, 01:59:00 PM
And the ICE website has a photo gallery of stuff they found.. http://www.ice.gov/p...chive/index.htm
Post by: ThE MaSTeR 3 on August 02, 2007, 02:19:00 PM
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 02, 2007, 02:33:00 PM
QUOTE(appleguru @ Aug 2 2007, 10:52 AM)
The applicable law here (The USC 17 § 1201 and § 1204) says that it's illegal to "manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in" devices and services whose primary function is to circumvent a copy protection measure on a digital work.
And so, if you consider a modchip as falling under that definition (and I do NOT; clearly others think otherwise...), then it's illegal to make, sell, or offer to anyone else. But buying them (at least domestically where no importing is involved) is not covered, and is therefore (technically anyways) legal.
really it depends what constitutes "primary use" is that YOUR primary use or the "primary use" of people who own that device.
The problem is that the DMCA is just too damn broad. under the DMCA you could very easily shut down microchip and Atmel, and if you're crafty enough you could stretch it to Dell and other computer manufacturers as they're "manufactured" and constitute "part" of the copyright circumvention system, but then we come back to primary use.
Really what it comes down to is that the DMCA is broad enough to cover everything under the sun allowing ICE and DHS or whoever to to just pick who they want to raid with little or no real foundation.
I forget who said it but I rember someone saying that the US had a system of for boxes: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the ammo box... use in that order.
It's pretty clear that the soap box and the ballot box have failed to deliver a copyright law that actually works in the interest of the creative individuals who actually create copyrighted materials or even the interests of the American citizens.
The next step is the Jury box...
Most people don't really understand this concept but the idea of a jury isn't just to determine whether or not a person broke the law but to question if the law is actually lawfull and worth having. It's part of our check and balance system and a major reason why most copyright issues are settled out of court. The ESA/RIAA/MPAA all propose ridiculous lawsuits and then make what looks like a sweet settlement deal to get people to settle, because if it ever went to court and they LOST it would set a presidence that future cases could use to win in the same fashion.
If you go back through all of the major RIAA cases you'll see that 99% of the time they never made it to court due to a settlement, and in the few times it did go to court the RIAA either dropped the case or modified the charges.
I realize this is your life we're talking about here but if we really want to see a difference we need a solid legal showing in the courts to correct the evil media spin and expose the ridiculousness that is the DMCA as well as set a presidence for future DMCA issues in the courts.
Post by: Eksyte on August 02, 2007, 02:55:00 PM
QUOTE
I realize this is your life we're talking about here but if we really want to see a difference we need a solid legal showing in the courts to correct the evil media spin and expose the ridiculousness that is the DMCA as well as set a presidence for future DMCA issues in the courts.
Too true.
Seems like the people who were caught today are going to take the fall for the rest of us. With that in mind, I'm wondering what we can do to help them out. Seems like a fund for legal fees would be most appropriate.
Post by: jojones88 on August 02, 2007, 06:31:00 PM
Post by: ydgmms on August 02, 2007, 08:16:00 PM
QUOTE(pirichios @ Aug 1 2007, 11:01 PM)
the problem is finding a lawyer thats informed and educated as you are twisted. if these shops had one they would kick ass in court (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)
I believe the there is a part in the ACLU and definately the Electronic Frontier Foundation... now whose side they would be on... thats the question. I'm sure they would assist the modchip retailers.
Someone should definately look into that for the resellers, and they should surely look into it themselves. I know of a couple that post here that got raided, obviously, and I recommend you look into the EFF and/or ACLU.
This post has been edited by ydgmms: Aug 3 2007, 03:17 AM
Post by: roger1079 on August 02, 2007, 11:21:00 PM
QUOTE(Ceazer @ Aug 2 2007, 09:19 AM)
could be DTV all over again
i hope and pray its not but never underestimate the greed of big business ....Post by: appleguru on August 03, 2007, 12:00:00 AM
QUOTE(Rustmonkey @ Aug 2 2007, 09:07 AM)
@ Appleguru
So you said they took EVERYTHING??? Including your inventory that WASNT modchips? Thats bogus - how the hell does a faceplate infringe on copyrights?
Eh, scratch what I said earlier.. Just went over the item list; they took all the faceplates too
Given the ridiculously broad terms of the warrant, they were permitted to take pretty much everything.. looks like they took the faceplates under the "realted to the xbox 360 console" section.
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Aug 2 2007, 05:09 PM)
I realize this is your life we're talking about here but if we really want to see a difference we need a solid legal showing in the courts to correct the evil media spin and expose the ridiculousness that is the DMCA as well as set a presidence for future DMCA issues in the courts.
Amen. Your words have been more inspiring than anything else I've read all day, and you couldn't have said this any better. My family is going to kill me, but I'm a man of strong convictions... And the time has come to stand up for what I believe in. While I'm not making up my mind now, (and it's going to be a tough decision when the time does come), the option of standing up and fighting for what I believe in is looking better than ever. Here's to a brighter future.
Post by: death trap on August 03, 2007, 03:19:00 AM
QUOTE(Øßߥ @ Aug 2 2007, 09:06 PM)
Wow death trap well said.
Im here in the good old usofA and yes you right were fuck in this country.
Our lawmakers are under big business and TV evangelists pockets.
Yes we got all kind of wars here war on terror
war on drugs
war on piracy
war to make sure everyone
what's next war on fluffy bunnies?
oh you forgot war on religions.
If i had the $$$ i would move to a different country that all people are equal. Yes even Canada and France
"It will work through me, and I will do great evil, thinking I am doing great good."
I think the feds may of overstepped the line, it sounds like they want some new toys for the office. Why did they need all the pads?
Post by: lovo on August 06, 2007, 02:45:00 AM
QUOTE(quenlin @ Aug 2 2007, 08:38 PM)
Just once I'd like to see modchip discussion without the homebrew idiots yapping about the legal uses of modchips.
Clearly modchips should be illegal. Why? Because even though it is possible to use it only for 100% legal purposes, the OVERWHELMING majority of people use them for piracy. Unfortunately, thats just the way it is. If you created something that was used for illegal purposes 98% of the time, can you honestly say that it should be legal, just because a microscopic amount of people wouldn't use it illegally? Of course not. Sometimes you have to examine something that's in a gray area, and just make a call on something. Making them illegal is just the right thing to do.
So in review:
Homebrew whiners - No, your xbox isn't designed to be a media center. Yes, it's cool that it is. For every one of you that use your chip for that only, 10,000 people don't.
Backup whiners - No, xbox games are not designed to be copied. Yes, I know you can legally backup your games. Have you ever played a backup you didn't own? ever? even once? Anyone who can answer that question 'Yes', congrats. That's about .000001% of you. The rest of you are thieves.
So because many uses it for illegal stuff. The ones who does not sould be punished? If i would get arrested because i all others used their gun to kill people, and i did not, i would have been pissed.
Most of the people who own's a car (at least here in Norway) is breaking the speedlimit etc regulary.
Does this mean that since 98% of the people are breaking the law, it should not be allowed to sell cars?
Se where im getting at? You cant punish all that mods xbox, just the once that actually are harming the corporations.
Post by: chrislee149 on August 06, 2007, 09:06:00 PM
I sent my PSP to Foundmy for unbricking, which doesn't even involve modchips. However, now I may likely not get it back. At the least, I'll probably have to wait months.
Post by: dev1os on August 07, 2007, 08:24:00 PM
have way to much say in what we can or can't do. I mean you can argue all day about the good vs the bad uses of a modchip, but take that out of the picture and all you have is someone telling us what we are allowed to do with the products we buy. It's not just the modchip it's everything. Think about it, is there anything that you can think of that's not regulated in some way? Now I'm saying lets throw laws out the window. Its just that alot of these laws are made not in the best intrest of the people, but in the best intrests of the goverment and big corporations. The cars we drive, the houses we live in, the electronics we buy, the movies and television that we watch, music, the video games we play, the medicine we buy,everything. We have to deal with censorhip, biased news channels, unfair laws. I thought this was supposed to be free country? We live in a place were the goverment has to much control, where the constitution can be bypassed and our leaders can do whatever they please. The people don't matter anymore. It's all about money and how they can make even more. I don't about you but I'm sick of it and something needs to be done. Any ideas on where to start?
To appleguru, you should take a stand, let me know what I can do to help, I dont have much but i'll do what i can.
Post by: slayer410 on August 09, 2007, 05:05:00 PM
QUOTE(snart @ Aug 1 2007, 04:24 PM)
Almost. It's illegal to sell any item that circumvents copy protection.
The law should be -
It's illegal to sell any item specifically manufactured to circumvent copy protection.
An example of this-
Bleach can be used to clean dirty piss as far as drug tests go.
The law says any product specifically manufactured with the sole intent of helping the passing of a drug test is illegal to sell.
What if every manufact. of bleach and provider were raided.
All I can say is wow...
Post by: sickoftheman on September 05, 2007, 03:42:00 PM
secondly, here's the mission statement from ICE. I thought it was funny how the US DOJ assigned the investigation of copyright infringement and IPR to the ICE agency. It doesnt' make sense! The mission statement says to protect our borders from terrorist....blah..blah. Illegal immigrants who 'could' be terrorist. Last I known 'Jose' at the local resturant was just trying to make money for family in Mexico.
http://www.ice.gov/about/index.htm
Read it and tell me how it relates to modchips? Also, when you look at the pictures of the recent 'achievements' of the agency for August. You see modchips listed next to people who they should only focus on, ie MS13. Gangsters who shoot people in crowded streets. Yeah, just kind of interesting. It's like the doj didn't know how to properly assign an agency for modchips. Yes I agree that modchips come from canada, so it falls into the Immigrations and Customs territory. But, if you look at the mission statement as whole....it doesn't make sense. How is selling modchips a threat to our national security. What a joke!
So is anybody willing to sell chips to us citizens?
Post by: H4L0G33K on May 14, 2009, 04:43:00 PM