Print Page - Abortion

Off Topic Forums => General Chat => Politics, News and Religion => Topic started by: g0df4th3r on March 27, 2005, 10:20:00 AM

Title: Abortion
Post by: g0df4th3r on March 27, 2005, 10:20:00 AM

Are you for or aginst abortion. Or are you only for abortion if it involvs rape etc. If you are aginst please state why and same for, for abortion.

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on March 27, 2005, 12:52:00 PM

ok, heres the deal: a womans body is her choice, i dont necissarily agree with abortion, i think you should protect yourself in the first place and that if there was a better way, go with it rather than abortion

but there are two thigns good about abortion and what it does for our country:
1. its someones choice
2. if the child IS born, consider this: if the parent wanted to have the kid aborted, chances are they didnt really want them, so they probably wont love or care for them very much, thats no way to raise a kid, that will just have them grow up cold and bitter and we have enough people like that in the world. also, we have enough children in orphanages as it is, i dont think we need to be putting more in to crowd them up more

again, its not that i am for, or necisarilly against, abortion. i do think its wrong in some respects, but it is necissary

Title: Abortion
Post by: amicold on March 27, 2005, 12:59:00 PM

QUOTE(g0df4th3r @ Mar 27 2005, 11:54 AM)

ok i agree they arent illegal but they r still breaking the copyright laws when u rewrite the games

Title: Abortion
Post by: fishlord on March 28, 2005, 10:11:00 AM

^ nicely done with the quote.

I feel the same way as the above. Although I tend not to agree with it when there have been multiple abortions from the same person due to carelessness/lazyness.

Title: Abortion
Post by: The unProfessional on March 28, 2005, 12:13:00 PM

It's late abortions that disturb me. The first trimester should leave plenty of time to make your decision.

Title: Abortion
Post by: The unProfessional on March 28, 2005, 12:14:00 PM

It's late abortions that disturb me. The first trimester should leave plenty of time to make your decision.

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on March 28, 2005, 12:38:00 PM

QUOTE(fishlord @ Mar 28 2005, 11:17 AM)

^ nicely done with the quote.

Title: Abortion
Post by: theperfekt001 on March 28, 2005, 05:00:00 PM

at the very least, abortions should be legal in the event of rape...my ex was raped, but decided to keep it. though soon afterward, the fucker beat the shit out of her, killing it. it seems that an abortion would have been a tad more humane...

Title: Abortion
Post by: MrWizdumb on April 13, 2005, 04:43:00 PM

as long as there's death penalties, abortions should be legal.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 13, 2005, 05:13:00 PM

What about the rights of the unborn child? Just because it's growing inside the mothers body, does she have the right to do what she wants with it?

Sperm by itself, and unfertilized eggs, do not constitute conception. Sure, both are alive (but so are bacteria) independently, but not until the egg has been fertilized does a human start to form, and become "life".

Title: Abortion
Post by: lebriznon on April 14, 2005, 12:00:00 AM

i dont support abortions.

In theory, there shouldnt be a need if the mother is responsible.
should the need arise, then let the kid be adopted. Its one potentially good human being for the future.

but i fully support capital punishment. These criminals cant do any good for society and dont have the potential to benefit anyone. may as well kill them.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 14, 2005, 07:56:00 AM

Abortion is MURDER, plain & simple!

The moment a Woman's egg is fertilized, life is set in motion. If left undisturbed a human will be born into this world. To intentionally disrupt a fetuses life cycle is homicide.

I'm sure everyone here would agree infanticide is murder. So whats the difference between infanticide and abortion. If there is a difference its killing the infant while inside the womb instead of waiting for the infant to be born.

You fuckin libbys get me sick with your pro-choice bullshit. You get all teary eyed with your "a woman has a right to choose" chant. What about the life thats waiting to be born, don't they have a voice?? Well here's thier voice, and its saying "STFU and let me LIVE"!!!!

Agreeing with abortion is the same as advocating murder is a choice.

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on April 14, 2005, 09:47:00 AM

when your mom says "clean your room" and you say "no, i want to go play with my freinds", you still have to clean your room, why dont the kids get a voice then?

and yes, im aware that missing out on playing with ones freinds is no where near as bad as death, but its the same basic principal

Title: Abortion
Post by: Arvarden on April 14, 2005, 01:18:00 PM

Democracy is all about choice, when you take the right away to choose democracy will no longer exsist.

If we lived in a "perfect" world I would agree with xboxbox451 to some extent but we don't, fact. Making abortion a crime against humanity will cause more problems than it will solve in the long run, another fact for you

If we let these pro life fluffers rule the world where will the insantity stop? In Britain our government spent millions on banning fox hunting, fox hunting is still rife in our country side(pro hunt btw). If PETA get there way they will ban fishing!

Title: Abortion
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 14, 2005, 08:18:00 PM

QUOTE

If you kill them how are you supposed to learn from there crime?

Learn from their crime? How would keeping them alive help use learn from their crimes. There must be a punishment for the crime. If it were not so, there would be a lot more crime.

QUOTE

Also it suprise's me that most God fearing people agree with the death penalty but in the great holy book it states let God be the judge.

God will be the judge of our soul, and He will after they have been executed for the crimes they delt to humanity.

QUOTE

No, it is not the same basic principal. You are comaring apples to oranges. The right to live is a right given to all humankind regarless of age, sex, or race. Whether one has to clean their room or not is not even a right.

QUOTE

True, but some rights cannot be a simple choice. By that logic, murder should be a right, as well the other numerous illegal acts.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 14, 2005, 08:27:00 PM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Apr 14 2005, 07:24 PM)

Making abortion a crime against humanity will cause more problems than it will solve in the long run, another fact for you

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 14, 2005, 08:38:00 PM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Apr 14 2005, 01:24 PM)

Democracy is all about choice, when you take the right away to choose democracy will no longer exsist.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Colonel32 on April 15, 2005, 12:21:00 AM

QUOTE(xbox451)

When did fighting for the right to live become insane????

QUOTE(xbox451)

And don't go considering me part of any group. No one influences my decision in this world.

Then what's with the catch phrases?

Mosts people just don't believe an egg should be afforded human rights because it has potential. A lot of people really do believe it is an egg and not a 'defenseless child' or 'baby'. Those are the 'pro-deathers'.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 15, 2005, 12:26:00 AM

QUOTE(Colonel32 @ Apr 15 2005, 12:27 AM)

QUOTE(xbox451)

When did fighting for the right to live become insane????

Title: Abortion
Post by: moistness on April 15, 2005, 12:40:00 AM

QUOTE(Tony42077 @ Apr 15 2005, 01:33 AM)

Fact....? I think not, that is an opinion. You sound dumb when you try to pass off your opinions as facts

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 15, 2005, 12:52:00 AM

This is a very passionate topic to discuss. People wanting to voice their opinion should keep their argument civil.

Inappropriate ranting will just make your point sound irrelevant.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 15, 2005, 10:21:00 AM

QUOTE(moistness @ Apr 15 2005, 06:46 AM)

^^ Now there's the perfect poster child for pro abortion!!

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on April 15, 2005, 10:39:00 AM

QUOTE

I would much rather grow up in your worst case scenario of "growing up cold and bitter", than having my limbs torn from my body and my brain hacked apart when I'm at my most defenseless time of life. But heh, that hasn't happened to any of us, so fuck everyone else.
It's kind of like standing in line for a ride with a long wait. All of you can't wait to get on the ride. You finally get on the ride and enjoy yourself. A seat opens up, but you won't let any one else sit next to you. You reply "The ride isn't that reat" or "they don't know what they're missing" all the while, you're having the time of your life. Your a selfish asshole, plain and simple.

duly noted, and a very good point.

And you would much rather grow up in the worst case scenario of being cold and bitter? Why? I really dont think you would be saying that if you had experienced it first hand. Go live a life like that, and get back to me.

Now, as I said, its a very good point, but I do think your wrong: At a funeral, what does everyone say? "He/she is in a better place now", so arent we doing them a favor?

And, on a final note (cause im done discussing this, I'm really just re-itterating what Ive been saying rather than being acctually productive): When someone is mentally brain dead, in a coma or something of the such, people reserve the right to take their life because, according to the ones in the coma (no, im not trying to reference the Schaivo case) they dont want to live like that. Now, granted, those people had a choice, and had the ability to say, pull the plug, or, you damned well better keep me alive! But in any case, when one is unfit to judge for themselves what is in their best interest (ie: children under the age of 18, mentally challenged people, ect ect) legal guardianship is granted to the parent. So they have the right to say what happens and doesnt.

I dont agree with abortion, I do think its wrong in a sense, but I think we will be hurting the world more by letting these children be born and suffer.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 15, 2005, 02:08:00 PM

QUOTE(thewickedjester @ Apr 15 2005, 10:45 AM)

I dont agree with abortion, I do think its wrong in a sense, but I think we will be hurting the world more by letting these children be born and suffer.

Title: Abortion
Post by: amicold on April 15, 2005, 06:06:00 PM

QUOTE(Tony42077 @ Apr 14 2005, 08:33 PM)

If some mega-slut decides to sleep with all the men she wants without protection, there are consequences.

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on April 15, 2005, 10:05:00 PM

im gonna have to agree with you amicold, and again xbox451, good points. it comes down to what you beleive, do i think we need to abort all the pregnancies in korea? no, thats what we like to call 'being dramatic', but i get your point, if a mother is willing to say 'hey, i cant take care of this child, i dont want him/her growing up in anything less that a loving and caring household' then yeah, let her get an abortion, it is irrisponsible for people to have abortions just to avoid being parents, is sad and pathetic. But we cant allow for some what we disallow for others simply on the basis of motive.

wow, i said i would discuss this anyomore, and here i am, ill be damned

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 15, 2005, 10:15:00 PM

QUOTE(amicold @ Apr 15 2005, 06:12 PM)

What kills me is if the abortion is done early enough, then it's just a fertilized egg, with potential.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Arvarden on April 16, 2005, 04:11:00 AM

"Inappropriate ranting will just make your point sound irrelevant."

Title: Abortion
Post by: Electro Nation on April 16, 2005, 07:26:00 PM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Apr 16 2005, 10:17 AM)

"Inappropriate ranting will just make your point sound irrelevant."

Title: Abortion
Post by: amicold on April 16, 2005, 09:11:00 PM

QUOTE(xboxbox451 @ Apr 15 2005, 10:21 PM)

Adoption has potential.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 16, 2005, 10:07:00 PM

QUOTE(amicold @ Apr 16 2005, 09:17 PM)

If abortion is legal not everyone is having them, it's not much to worry about.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Electro Nation on April 16, 2005, 11:48:00 PM

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 17, 2005, 12:03:00 PM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Apr 16 2005, 10:17 AM)

"Inappropriate ranting will just make your point sound irrelevant."

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 17, 2005, 02:47:00 PM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Apr 17 2005, 02:20 PM)

You and I have no right what so ever to tell a woman she can't have an abortion, it is her well being which is more important be it mental, physical or social health. The fetus will always come secend unless the mother states otherwise. That is unless the Nanny brigade get there wish.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Colonel32 on April 17, 2005, 03:40:00 PM

QUOTE(xboxbox451 @ Apr 17 2005, 08:53 PM)

OK, according to your logic, I have no right to tell someone not to kill another adult.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 17, 2005, 04:14:00 PM

QUOTE(Colonel32 @ Apr 17 2005, 03:46 PM)

LMFAO

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 18, 2005, 09:45:00 AM

QUOTE(xboxbox451 @ Apr 17 2005, 10:20 PM)

Its a shame to see others that have such disregard for life, that they will equate the fight for human existence to that of mold. Pathetic.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 18, 2005, 09:52:00 AM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Apr 17 2005, 08:20 PM)

They are not concrete beliefs they are emotions, big difference Jahovaboy.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Arvarden on April 18, 2005, 10:48:00 AM

Title: Abortion
Post by: pug_ster on April 18, 2005, 11:40:00 AM

QUOTE(johnnobts @ Apr 17 2005, 01:47 AM)

from a Christian perspective, the question I ask is, "What will bring about the greatest amount of redemption? What will the greater good be?" Concerning the artificial termination of a pregnancy, there is no real redemption gained in the process. the woman who had the abortion will always carry the emotional baggage. the woman will also suffer possibly from long-term physical problems post-abortion. abortion rights activists seldom point out the statisics that women who have abortions become nearly 10X more likely to have miscarriages later on... consider abortion even in cases of rape and incest. again, does terminating the pregnancy really bring redemption? does it really make things right? is it justice?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tom Tuttle on April 18, 2005, 01:19:00 PM

Against Abortion.

Except for rape, incest, and when the mother's physical health is in grave danger.

I see the argument of "its the woman's body, so her choice". What about the father's rights? Also, from the time the sperm enters the egg, the child ceases to be "just part of the mother's body". The child now has a speperate DNA from the mother's. How can something be part of the mother, but have different DNA?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Electro Nation on April 19, 2005, 12:25:00 AM

Did anyone here know that poverty is actually a genetic trait?

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 19, 2005, 12:37:00 AM

QUOTE(Electro Nation @ Apr 19 2005, 12:31 AM)

Did anyone here know that poverty is actually a genetic trait?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Extreme Agony on April 19, 2005, 08:27:00 AM

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on April 19, 2005, 09:19:00 AM

QUOTE(Extreme Agony @ Apr 19 2005, 08:33 AM)

Ok guys.... just start puttin' it in her butt... then you don't have to worry about abortion... problem solved...

Title: Abortion
Post by: amicold on April 19, 2005, 09:47:00 AM

Life is not so precious that we can't afford to lose some embryos. The world is over-populated as it is. XboxXbox have you ever killed an insect or a spider or fly? If so, you stand against your own beliefs.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Electro Nation on April 19, 2005, 09:53:00 AM

Why stop at embryos? Why not just get rid of the "unfit" altogether? You know the Gypsies, Jews, Commies, Poles, Homosexuals, Political Rivals, etc. Even after the Holocaust, eugenics is still alive and well.

Title: Abortion
Post by: amicold on April 19, 2005, 10:13:00 AM

That's way too extreme, we're talking about an embryo as opposed to entire races of people. Maybe you should stop vacuuming your house, you're sucking up the dustmites.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 19, 2005, 10:34:00 AM

QUOTE(amicold @ Apr 19 2005, 03:53 PM)

Life is not so precious that we can't afford to lose some embryos.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 19, 2005, 10:43:00 AM

QUOTE(Colonel32 @ Apr 19 2005, 08:05 AM)

What is a shame is that you guys can't accept that the majority of world disagrees with your definition of 'life', and your reaction is to feign outrage and call names..

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 19, 2005, 10:58:00 AM

QUOTE(amicold @ Apr 19 2005, 04:19 PM)

That's way too extreme, we're talking about an embryo as opposed to entire races of people. Maybe you should stop vacuuming your house, you're sucking up the dustmites.

Title: Abortion
Post by: amicold on April 19, 2005, 11:33:00 AM

QUOTE(Tony42077 @ Apr 19 2005, 10:40 AM)

Then why don't you help out a lot of people right now by donating your organs.

I'm sure that they could find use for almost everything except that weak heart

Title: Abortion
Post by: Electro Nation on April 19, 2005, 12:33:00 PM

QUOTE(amicold @ Apr 19 2005, 04:19 PM)

That's way too extreme, we're talking about an embryo as opposed to entire races of people. Maybe you should stop vacuuming your house, you're sucking up the dustmites.

Title: Abortion
Post by: moistness on April 19, 2005, 03:26:00 PM

QUOTE(Electro Nation @ Apr 19 2005, 05:39 PM)

However, in this day and age of technocracy, with the advent of such ungodly inventions as life support machines, it is hard for nature to truly take its course.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Electro Nation on April 19, 2005, 03:49:00 PM

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 20, 2005, 10:42:00 AM

QUOTE(Colonel32 @ Apr 20 2005, 07:09 AM)

Comparing majority rule slavery and majority rule theoretic science is ignorant and a dishonest fallacy.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Electro Nation on April 20, 2005, 01:05:00 PM

Title: Abortion
Post by: Rustmonkey on April 21, 2005, 01:20:00 AM

depends on the situation...

People should have to have a liscense to have kids... if you can't pass the test, sorry, no kid for you! Oh... and some sort of mandatory birth control... so then we're all like robots.... and we have no control over our own world... maybe its all imagined... shit.. there is no spoon...

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on April 21, 2005, 10:29:00 PM

I always find it hilarious when a bunch of guys sit down and try to decide what I should do with my body . . . Sometimes I think feminism has gone too far . . . other times I think it still has a long ways to go

yes it is a moral decision, but its my moral decision. Those of you that know me know that I am a christian convert. The g-d I believe in would never want me to have an abortion. But on the same line, he would never want laws to prevent me from having one either.

I ask you this:
How can I walk rightoues in the eyes of g-d in the abscence of choice?
A society that regulates everything can have all the appearances of rightousness, but is it actually rightous?

Let me ask this another way:
Which is more rightous: the society that is forced to do the right thing through laws or the society that has complete freedom to choose wrong but chooses right?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 22, 2005, 09:50:00 AM

QUOTE(damam @ Apr 22 2005, 04:35 AM)

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on April 22, 2005, 10:40:00 AM

QUOTE(Tony42077)

QUOTE(damam)

God would never want laws to prevent me from having one either

I don't know what branch of Christianity you are involved in, but the God that I know doesn't want any human life destroyed.

I never said he did.
All societies need a some basic behavior laws keep them cohesive, after that its all fluff and should not be regulated.

While I happen to agree and live by most (if not all) of the values the christian right expresses, I could not disagree more on how they want to implement them. Nothing will change the fact that laws will never make people good. You want people to be good, teach them good values and let them govern themselves.

Christ taught that anyone that thinks a sin, has sinned in the eyes of g-d. Whats next, little mandatory chips in our brains to regulate our thoughts? No, you must let the individual choose to be good.

tony please answer my question:
Its my assertion that a society that enforces morality through laws, is totally devoid rightousness. How can you be good, in the abscence of the choice to do wrong?

If you castrate a boy at birth, would g-d care that he never had sex out of wed lock?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 22, 2005, 06:07:00 PM

QUOTE(damam @ Apr 22 2005, 04:46 PM)

Just for the record - I do care when other people abort/murder their children. I have never known someone to get an abortion that I would consider justifiable. Since coming to the conclusion that abortion is murder (realized that while I was pregnant) I have never let a friend have an abortion with out trying to stop them. After experiencing pregnancy I dont know how anyone can deny that that is life inside of you. Even from the very beginning. Dont group me in with people that like to create an illusion of an external locus of control.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 22, 2005, 07:11:00 PM

QUOTE(damam @ Apr 21 2005, 10:35 PM)

I always find it hilarious when a bunch of guys sit down and try to decide what I should do with my body

Title: Abortion
Post by: pug_ster on April 24, 2005, 07:58:00 PM

Sometimes I wonder why pro-life people spend so much time trying to stop Terry Schaivo from starving to death while they enjoy eating a good steak from a slaughtered cow. I don't see these pro-life people protesting in front of a meat factory. Maybe these pro-life people should join PETA while they are at it.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 24, 2005, 09:40:00 PM

Title: Abortion
Post by: amicold on April 24, 2005, 10:36:00 PM

QUOTE(mario_ps2 @ Apr 22 2005, 07:30 PM)

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 25, 2005, 09:42:00 PM

QUOTE(amicold @ Apr 25 2005, 04:42 AM)

I don't see why you value human life over any other form of life.

Title: Abortion
Post by: powercntrl on April 28, 2005, 09:25:00 AM

QUOTE(xboxbox451 @ Apr 22 2005, 07:17 PM)

It's the life forming in a pregnant womans body that I care about. I care about a life that has yet to become strong, or capable of voicing thier opinion.

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on April 28, 2005, 01:43:00 PM

QUOTE(Colonel32 @ Apr 27 2005, 06:29 PM)

Call me crazy but a 'potential for egg which potentially devolops into a human' is non human too

Of course we could take this as far as Peter Singer, Professor of Bioethics:Center for Human Values at the Univirsity of Princeton, has taken it and say that a human is not really a human until they are atleast 1 month old.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 28, 2005, 02:23:00 PM

QUOTE(powercntrl @ Apr 28 2005, 03:31 PM)

What if it's an opinion that doesn't agree with yours? What if it's someone who's destined to grow up to be gay, a liberal or worse: a spammer. Sure, the pre-human mass of cells might turn out to be a dyed-in-the-wool Republican, but why take a chance? Kill 'em all and let God sort them out.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 28, 2005, 02:56:00 PM

QUOTE(powercntrl @ Apr 28 2005, 09:31 AM)

Or, accept the fact that this life thing you value so much comes with certain aspects you might find disagreeable.

Title: Abortion
Post by: powercntrl on April 28, 2005, 10:04:00 PM

QUOTE(Tony42077 @ Apr 28 2005, 02:29 PM)

Christians try to love everyone

Title: Abortion
Post by: powercntrl on April 28, 2005, 10:25:00 PM

QUOTE(xboxbox451 @ Apr 28 2005, 03:02 PM)

Your response towards Human life has to be the most indifferent yet, but thats typical of anyone supporting such a movement. According to your analogy on abortion, you feel, as Humans we should "accept" all problems we encounter rather than respond with a solution.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 28, 2005, 11:37:00 PM

QUOTE(powercntrl @ Apr 29 2005, 04:10 AM)

You can't love someone just for their potential good or their potential innocence. You either take them the way they are, the good and the bad, or you admit you can't accept them at all.

Title: Abortion
Post by: powercntrl on April 29, 2005, 12:46:00 AM

QUOTE(Tony42077 @ Apr 28 2005, 11:43 PM)

The links about Iraq and the murder of the gay man have nothing to do with abortion, they are only another attempt by you to sway people from the truth.

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on April 29, 2005, 09:16:00 AM

QUOTE(xboxbox451)

Wow, Dr. Peter Singer, now we crossed into the Twilight Zone.

Isnt that the guy that feels infants could be killed up to 28 days after birth? He also advocates that bestiality is a natural form of inter-species sex. Since Dr. Singer denounces everthing society holds moral or taboo, I wonder how a person like him feels about pedophilia?

The one and only

Dr. Singer is a classic example of the dark hole we can all be led down too by organizations like PETA. He bases all of his statements on strict logic, that use the premise that we are all animals. If you take his premises as true his conclusions are unfallable. I will give him that. But its also a good example of how science without a moral compass can lead us to places seen by the nazi's.

:sarcasm: I dont think he has taken it far enough. I ought to be able to kill my kid as long as they are dependent on me in any way. Financially, emotionally, etc.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Phizzy on April 29, 2005, 09:29:00 AM

If it's all about a women's choice, why can't a women legally kill (abort) her year old baby, or her week old baby, or even her minute old baby? Why does the legality or illegality simply come down to the location of the fetus/baby? Because the fetus/baby is enveloped inside of a women, separated from the outside word by an inch or two of flesh, it is somehow legal to take the fetus'/baby's life. However, outside the women (even just one second outside the women), it is somehow illegal to take the fetus'/baby's life. Odd how it simply comes down to the location of the fetus/baby, isn't it?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on April 29, 2005, 10:19:00 AM

QUOTE(Phizzy @ Apr 29 2005, 03:35 PM)

Title: Abortion
Post by: TheGoFind on April 29, 2005, 01:25:00 PM

Murder is a relative concept. The definition of murder varies from culture to culture. Abortion isn't murder because you aren't killing a human. The Nazi's believed they weren't murderers because they weren't killing humans. The Hutu's believed they weren't murderers because again they weren't killing humans. Josef Mengele was a respected scientist, as well as a staunch supporter of euthanasia and abortion, he was not a murderer.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on April 29, 2005, 01:28:00 PM

QUOTE(TheGoFind @ Apr 29 2005, 01:31 PM)

Title: Abortion
Post by: powercntrl on April 29, 2005, 05:52:00 PM

QUOTE(Phizzy @ Apr 29 2005, 09:46 AM)

The U.S. doesn't have a draft yet? Didn't these "grown American men and women" volunteer for military service?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Parsn!ps on April 30, 2005, 01:27:00 PM

http://artpad.art.co...y/?ifqdm91ahp5w

Title: Abortion
Post by: PackerBacker on May 02, 2005, 08:46:00 AM

The real question you all should be wondering is, "Should the supreme court decide abortion rights". The answer to that is NO! The supreme court is way out of it's jurisdiction with any decision not involving federal law. If for example the "Legistlators" (IE Congress) had passed a law saying that abortion was illegal, then they could have stepped in ONLY to enforce the law passed by congress *or* they could step in and proclaim a law written was unconstitutional. You see, the constitution is on top, followed by federal law - followed by state and local community law. So, the only role the supreme court has is to enforce federal or constitutional law. What did they do by ruling on roe v wade? They userped the founding fathers' original intent for the highest court and took the role of legistlating from the bench, they made a law with a ruling. This is tyranical and goes agaist EVERY notion of the supreme court.

Some of the rage you see on issues such as these is that the debate ends. The tyrranical court rules, and that rule becomes law, this is not there role, legistlaters (congress) makes laws, courts are supposed to enforce and adhear to the laws passed. By rulings like these the supreme court proves that they have become a rogue entity. Read some of Justice Scalia's works and you will gain further insite into this.

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on May 02, 2005, 09:00:00 AM

William Shaw is that you? . . . at any rate

i agree that the rift would not be so big on this issue if this had been a legislative act rather than a judicial act.

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 02, 2005, 09:37:00 AM

I love when pro-lifers are for the death penalty. Talk about hypocrisy. Abortion is fine in the first tri-mester!

AP

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on May 02, 2005, 10:28:00 AM

QUOTE(AkumAPRIME @ May 2 2005, 03:43 PM)

I love when pro-lifers are for the death penalty. Talk about hypocrisy. Abortion is fine in the first tri-mester!

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 02, 2005, 11:01:00 AM

Did your response have any relevance? Am I a pro-deather? No, not any more than you are for losing skin or hair cells. I love it when anyone compares a collection of cells with an innocent baby. IDK what your third sentence meant, so I can't really respond to it. Obviously noone here seriously advocates the murder of 2 year olds. If you're comparing a 2yo with a <3month old fetus, you've got some rethinking/relearning to do.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on May 03, 2005, 01:31:00 AM

Oh please teach me your abunadance of biological knowledge, I've got a minute. FYI, you were a collection of cells 1 week after conception, and you are a collection of cells now. I was simply making a statement in the same light as your lack of respect for pre-born human life.

I think that your utter lack of respect for the pre-born is pathetic. How quickly we forget that we were once a 3 month old fetus living inside of our mother's wombs. I don't know what you were doing as a 3 month old fetus (incubating, forming etc), but I was living! You can't argue that the fetus will be born as a human if unaltered. At what point is the fetus actually considered human life in your eyes? There have been cases of babies survivng outside of the womb after only 5 months of pregnancy, as the same way that there have been abortions performed at 7 months and later. What is the difference between these 2 babies? One is alive, and the other was murdered to make their lives easier.

You can attempt to spin it any way you want, but the truth still remains that you are destroying the life of someone that would eventually go on to survive as you are right now. Walking, talkning, breathing, and loving. Who are we to take away someones one chance at life that we all enjoy so much? Choose life and love

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on May 03, 2005, 07:08:00 PM

QUOTE(AkumAPRIME @ May 2 2005, 09:43 AM)

I love when pro-lifers are for the death penalty. Talk about hypocrisy. Abortion is fine in the first tri-mester!

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 04, 2005, 09:55:00 AM

Colonol articulates my thoughts on xbxb451's reply pretty well.

The problem is not that we disagree, 451. Its fine. There are people who think condoms are murder, and/or other birth control devices. It's fine that they disagree too. The problem is that these people are starting to force their views on others. The religious right is chipping away at abortion rights, and god forbid they decide that birth control is murder too...

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 04, 2005, 09:57:00 AM

DP, sorry

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on May 04, 2005, 10:42:00 AM

QUOTE(AkumAPRIME @ May 4 2005, 10:01 AM)

Colonol articulates my thoughts on xbxb451's reply pretty well.

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 04, 2005, 11:37:00 AM

when was the last time a pro choicer forced you to have an abortion?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on May 04, 2005, 04:22:00 PM

QUOTE

There are people who think condoms are murder, and/or other birth control devices.

Another typical bullshit spin. No one has ever called condoms murder. Don't complain about someone else's use of propagandic terms when your own arguments rely off of them heavily.

Heh akuma, where is your response to the questions that I posed to you? It's typical that you skipped over my questions. I guess that you can just let Dr. Science (Colonel32) answer back with some crazy facts about how in-human fetuses are. Well here's another ? for you.

Let's say that you are have been married for 5 years. You get your wife pregnant while everything is going fine in the marriage. For some reason, 5 months into the pregnancy, you two become separated. She hates you more than anything, and everything that is associated with you. She decides that an abortion is the best way to get rid of something that will forever link her to you. What rights does the father have? Would you just let her get away with it? Would you have a problem with it?

I know more than a few couples that contemplated getting abortions for one reason or another. And, for other reasons, they didn't go through with it. Every single couple that I asked about their decision thanks God every day that they didn't go through with it (even the one's that put them up for adoption). How can you look into the eyes of an innocent child, and contemplate killing them (before the fact) because you didn't want to go through the hassle?

I pray for the women that you assholes dupe into sex. Please, pro-choice advocates, use the choice to use a condom.

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 04, 2005, 09:47:00 PM

Sorry I missed your ?'s tony. I think the woman has the choice over whether or not to have the baby. IF she decides to get the abortion, then that's her choice. I am much harder pressed when I think that she wants the baby, but the husband doesnt. Then, must the husband pay? etc. But in answer to your question, she gets to decide.

Secondly, There are fundamentalists that believe that birth control is tantamount to murder. They simply take your argument one step further. You say that a conceived fetus should have its chance at life, and they say that sperm and eggs should have their chance at conception, at life. I mean, if life is to be celebrated and respected, shouldn't we try to create as much life as possible? Especially when they can grow up to pay the church?

Thirdly, you didn't do shit when you were 3 months old, you dont remember shit from then, and you weren't shit back then.

Fourthly, I dont dupe any girls into having sex with me. They choose to, just like they get to choose wtf to do with their bodies, and the cells that begin to grow within them.

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 04, 2005, 10:33:00 PM

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!11eleven

best come back EVER

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on May 05, 2005, 11:28:00 AM

QUOTE(xboxbox451)

Do you even know what the extent of development a fetus has accomplished within the first trimester?? Google it, and take a good look.

Speakinf from pesonal experience, I could start to feel reactions from my baby at about 2 1/2 months to various stimuli. For example, when ever I got into a swimming pool, she would start reacting very violently until I got out.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on May 05, 2005, 10:39:00 PM

QUOTE(AkumAPRIME @ May 5 2005, 03:53 AM)

IF she decides to get the abortion, then that's her choice. I am much harder pressed when I think that she wants the baby, but the husband doesnt. Then, must the husband pay?

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 06, 2005, 08:52:00 AM

Lol, the Cement block calling a brick wall hard headed, gimmee a break. It has nothing to do with avoiding responsibility. I am more than happy to take up that responsibility when I get there. It has to do with choice.

I also agree that partial birth abortions are wrong, except in the case of the mother's health. IF the health of the mother in endangered, she has the right to do whatever is necessary to protect herself.

Those fundamentalists are trying to hijack the nation man. They want to take control of our education and medical system, amongst other things, and have been getting progressively stronger.

You seem to have taken my statement one portion at a time and ignored the AND part. At 1, you were something, you were doing things, living on your own, etc. At 3 months, you weren't that, and you werent X, and you werent Y. And when you arent all those things in conjunction, youre not "alive" enough for me to care about your existance. Similarly, lichen is alive. It exists on its own, but it is only a large collection of cells, hardly doing anything. IF some lichen gets killed, I don't care.

Last but not least, religious women are some of the sluttiest ever. Their repressed sexuality makes them freaks in bed. The notion that liberal pro-choice women are easy is just a prejudice employed by pro-lifers to deride their opposition. All in groups will attack outgroups for obvious reasons, but when you give credence to their generalizations, Im going to call BS.

Title: Abortion
Post by: TheGoFind on May 06, 2005, 09:01:00 AM

You might want to compare your definition of a "fact" with that of an accredited scientific institution like the National Academy of Sciences, nothing is absolute (forever modifiable). It's humorous for you to support the destruction of another human life based on the "facts" provided by that pseudo-science eugenics, Herr Fuhrer would be proud. However, I do agree that in situations where it threatens the mothers life that she should be given the opportunity to abort the child, however that is her choice to make. Another thing is that Arvarden only asks that they be given the opportunity to do so, with enough education, they will hopefully opt not to do so, knowing just how precious human life really is, and that sometimes in life you have to play the cards you were dealt, you can't abort everything you know.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on May 06, 2005, 04:14:00 PM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ May 6 2005, 05:34 AM)

If the fetus posse's a risk to the mothers health I do not have a problem with abortion taking place "as late as 8 1/2 months". Call me extreme, call me what you like, at the end of the day your understanding of the subject is based around religeon and emotion.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on May 09, 2005, 11:38:00 AM

QUOTE(AkumAPRIME @ May 6 2005, 02:58 PM)

Last but not least, religious women are some of the sluttiest ever. Their repressed sexuality makes them freaks in bed. The notion that liberal pro-choice women are easy is just a prejudice employed by pro-lifers to deride their opposition.

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 09, 2005, 12:53:00 PM

And if contraception fails? As it does occasionally?
Again, Abortion is fine in the first trimester, and occasionally later on when the mother is endangered. Disagree all you like, but when you try to take this choice away from people, that's when I get pissed.

Title: Abortion
Post by: ubby on May 09, 2005, 05:47:00 PM

Seriously guys, can we leave the prejudice out of this argument? Man, I've been trying to read through this topic, and I'm finding nothing but generalizations. This isn't about which group is the 'sluttiest', this is about a definition of life!

So far, the ones who don't describe life as 'at first conception' have been very vague about when it actually begins. First/Second/Third trimesters doesn't make sense. A human doesn't become a human at the stroke of midnight at the end of the first trimester, nor the second. We need to break it down.

It would be great if we could all choose where life begins. (in random order)

The fetus has a:
face
brain
heart
lungs
legs
liver
eyes
fingers
genitals
intestinal track

or we could go on...
The fetus has learned:
to walk
to crawl
to drive
to talk
to have sex
to breathe
to urinate
to have a proper discussion on the internet

Since murder is illegal, this is the true question that pro-choice advocates face. When does life begin? Because killing after-the-fact would be illegal.

Seriously, I really want a 'normal' discussion. This is a very 'heated' topic, and I understand that everyone is very passionate, but since when has swearing/yelling online ever changed a person's mind?

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 09, 2005, 10:42:00 PM

Life begins at the third trimester... How's that?

Title: Abortion
Post by: ubby on May 09, 2005, 11:24:00 PM

Since this is a discussion, can I ask 'why does it start in the third trimester'?

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 10, 2005, 01:28:00 AM

Its a decent amount of time for the parent to find out theyre pregnant, and decide what to do with it, but it's not so long that we think there's significant neural definition.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Arius on May 10, 2005, 01:30:00 AM

its up to the person who is pregnant.

Whereas I dont agree with people using abortion because a baby would ruin there lifestyle (they should have used a bloody condom in the first place) I do think it should be there choice.

I also think the legal limit should be lowered here, its to high atm.

Title: Abortion
Post by: ubby on May 10, 2005, 10:18:00 AM

I'm sorry, none of your responses answer my question. You answered for 'how long does the parent have to decide?'

When does life begin? I don't think there's a relationship between when life begins and when the mother has had ample time to decide if she wants the pregnancy.

Simple question, especially if you're having a discussion about abortion.

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 10, 2005, 10:24:00 AM

legal limit of what? Also, not every condom works, man!

:::EDIT:::
Ubby, my first trimester decision is relatively arbitrary. The life of the cells is not in question, they are alive even before conception. The real question is, when does "human" life begin. When is that clump of cells a human? That's a philosophical question, and thus I think the "answer" should be more functional than accurate. Basically the debate over when that thing is a human will rage on forever. So your debate here is useless, IMO.

Title: Abortion
Post by: ubby on May 10, 2005, 10:54:00 AM

I suppose I should have clarified that. When does human life begin?

I understand that every pro-choicer has their own stance on this, but I'm still curious. Like any group, their views won't all change at once. It needs to be on a case by case basis.

So when does it begin, human life? What does the fetus need to accomplish to become a human?

::edit::
Oh yeah, and what legal limit?

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 10, 2005, 01:46:00 PM

I assume he meant limit on abortions? Which I don't believe there is. I don't think there should be a limit. If you get pregnant three times and try to abort all three, you should be forced to have a hysterectomy.

Human life begins when the human can live on its own, biologically, without the mothers womb for support AND has significant brain function, ie. does not live in a vegetative state.

Title: Abortion
Post by: SNMNMNM! on May 10, 2005, 02:16:00 PM

QUOTE(AkumAPRIME @ May 10 2005, 07:52 PM)

Human life begins when the human can live on its own, biologically, without the mothers womb for support AND has significant brain function, ie. does not live in a vegetative state.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on May 10, 2005, 02:16:00 PM

QUOTE(AkumAPRIME @ May 10 2005, 02:52 PM)

Human life begins when the human can live on its own, biologically, without the mothers womb for support AND has significant brain function, ie. does not live in a vegetative state.

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 10, 2005, 04:45:00 PM

DP.

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 10, 2005, 04:47:00 PM

First of all, I said biologically live, not survive economically. Youre taking my statement out of context. The guy above who points out that labs and what not can creat human life without a womb has a better point. Revision:

Human life begins when the human can live on its own, biologically, without the mothers womb for support or some other replacement. AND has significant brain function, ie. does not live in a vegetative state.

Now even with that revision, there's the point of premature babies, and whether they are human life... That's a hard one, but doesn't occur in the context of my argument, because there has never been a baby born premature at 12 weeks or before, that's survived. Or at least my quick net search didn't turn anything up.

But there is a tendency amongst you to think that life, especially human life, is super sacred, and honestly I don't agree. This obviously affects our ideas about these things. Abortion isn't murder, and death isn't always bad or wrong. And this definitley isnt to the worst degree. I think it's far worse to let the kid live a few years, then burn him to death, or some such thing. Thats way worse.

Title: Abortion
Post by: SNMNMNM! on May 10, 2005, 05:11:00 PM

QUOTE(AkumAPRIME @ May 10 2005, 10:53 PM)

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 10, 2005, 05:42:00 PM

Ive become a DP king, sorry. not sure wassup

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 10, 2005, 05:43:00 PM

did you read my post? and wtf would you quote my post right below it, god I hate that, anyway.

IF you read it, I don't talk about premies much other than to say I don't really have an answer. Let's say they are alive and human, but since theyre all born after 3 months, it's a moot point.

Nor are we talking about test tube babies. We are talking about a womans womb, within 3 months of conception.

Title: Abortion
Post by: SNMNMNM! on May 10, 2005, 05:52:00 PM

Such hipocracy, anyway you didn't say a fucking thing about three months in that post, so fuck off with that, and you know that even after 3 months a fetus cannot survive outside the womb, pwned! Who the fuck are you to decide someone's future? How do you know that child would be burned to death years late if he lived, what are you fucking Ms. Cleo

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 10, 2005, 06:23:00 PM

? Well if we're talking about deciding the future, if I choose to have an abortion, Im making a choice about my future. I think we can all agree we should be able to decide our futures. The fact that a fetus is involved is negligable because they aren't human enough for me to care about. You can call Hypocrisy all you like.

I call a 3 month limit as a compromise with the, "conception is life!" people.
My reference to a burning kid had nothing to do with you and I think you misunderstood me...

Title: Abortion
Post by: SNMNMNM! on May 10, 2005, 08:20:00 PM

QUOTE(Parsn!ps @ May 11 2005, 01:31 AM)

Well personally speaking, It wouldn't bother me if I was killed before I was aware of my own existence!

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on May 10, 2005, 10:55:00 PM

how bout we just kill you before you realize whats happening?

Title: Abortion
Post by: ubby on May 11, 2005, 12:30:00 AM

or in your sleep...

1. What is growing in the womb of the woman is alive.
A. Even one celled creatures are alive.
B. What is growing in the woman is more than a one celled creature.
2. The nature of the life in the woman is human.
A. It is the product of human DNA, therefore it's nature, its essence is undeniably human.
B. Because it is human in nature, if left to live, it will result in a fully developed human baby.
C. Humans are humans not because they have feet, hands, walk vertically, and speak, etc. Not all people have feet, hands, can walk, and speak. They are humans because of their nature, their essence, not because of physical abilities or disabilities.
i. A person born without arms and legs is still human.
ii. A person who cannot speak is still human.
iii. A person in a coma, helpless, unaware, unmoving, is still human by nature and it is wrong to murder such a person.
D. What is growing in the womb does not have the nature of an animal, a bird, or a fish. It has human nature.
i. If it is not human in nature, then what nature is it?
ii. If it is not human in nature, then does it have a different nature than human?
a. If so, then from where did it get this different nature since the only sources of its nature are human egg and and human sperm?
E. Objection: A cell in the body has human DNA and is alive and it is okay to kill it. So, it doesn't make any difference with a fetus.
i. Though it is true that a cell in the human body has DNA and is alive, a cell (muscle cell, skin cell, etc.) has the nature of being only what it is -- not a human. In other words, a muscle cell is by nature a muscle cell. A skin cell is by nature a skin cell. But, the fertilized egg of a human is by nature that very thing which becomes a fully developed human. Its nature is different than that of a muscle or skin cell because they do not grow into humans. Therefore, they are not the same thing.
A fertilized human egg has the nature of human development and it is alive. This is not so with a muscle or skin cell.
3. To abort the life, which is human in nature, is to kill that which is human in nature.
4. Therefore, abortion is killing a life which is human by nature.
A. Where, then, does the mother get the right to kill the human within her?

EDIT: Darn the formatting didn't work.... sorry.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on May 11, 2005, 10:41:00 AM

QUOTE(Parsn!ps @ May 11 2005, 01:31 AM)

Well personally speaking, It wouldn't bother me if I was killed before I was aware of my own existence!

Title: Abortion
Post by: ubby on May 12, 2005, 12:14:00 AM

I guess there's nothing to argue about. Did I sum it up that well?

Title: Abortion
Post by: AkumAPRIME on May 12, 2005, 01:23:00 AM

You omitted the major premise:

Killing a human is wrong.

I don't agree with that universally. A human that is less than 3 months, not wrong to kill. A repeat offender, not wrong to kill. Somone attaking you or threatening you, not wrong to kill.

Title: Abortion
Post by: ubby on May 12, 2005, 10:00:00 AM

Ummmmm... you might want to talk to the courts about that one. The last time I checked, murdering someone was illegal. Sure someone can be sentenced to death, but that's through a jury of their peers.

Is it fair then to say that each abortion should require a jury? And where would you find equal representation of the baby?

Also, you mention that you can murder in self defence. Though it's an extreme case, it's very true. How does a baby equate to a knife weilding intruder though? Would you say then, that if the baby was no threat to the mother's life, an abortion could not be made, and abortions should only be performed in 'self defence'?

Well, we're making progress. You acknoledged that babies are human!

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on May 18, 2005, 09:25:00 AM

...say hi to Hitler for me, we have the same birthday

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on May 20, 2005, 09:56:00 AM

QUOTE

Right, but how does this apply to abortion?

Umm... because its her body...?

QUOTE

Just for kicks, what if this woman actually tried to better herself in light of her situation?

Ok, then, just for kicks, let's see what might happen. The woman might get a job flipping burgers, might go back to college, spend hours on the other job she got, and leave here child alone all the time because his/her mom is bettering themselves, how did that fix the problem? The woman still isnt there. Just because you say you want to better yourself doesnt mean your automatically better off, you just accepted responsibility for fucking up your life and the kids possibly.

QUOTE

Men are being conditioned to think that they have no choice when it comes to the murder of their children.

Im pretty sure that if you can prove your the father of the child, you do have a say in the abortion, although in the end it is the womans choice, know why? Cause she's the one who has to go around with a fetus inside her for 9 months, the father sits there and, at best, says "I know what your going through".

QUOTE

Why am I treated as if I am some sort of inanimate semen dispenser who could never have an emotional attatchment to his unborn child?

Because in this manner, you are, welcome to life buddy. Its hell. And why exactly would you have a say in it? You say your pro life and that if the woman doesnt want the child she should have taken preventive measures (something I agree with completely), why didnt you wear a condom? Why didnt YOU take pre-emtive measures?

QUOTE

If you support abortion, I have to assume you have a weak mind and at some point you succumbed to good marketing.

A 'weak mind'? How do I have a weak mind, I made the choice of what I support all on my own. Which I dont support abortion by the way, I support letting a woman do what she wants with her body, I think the physical act of abortion is horrible, but its the womans body.

QUOTE

Take the way they bundled the whole issue in a neat and tiny package..."Choice"

Yeah, it comes down to one thing, choice. Its not your body, its not your woman, if you care about "your blood" and lifeline being passed on in the fetus in the womans body (ie your child) then you should have found out by talking that the woman didnt want to have a child and you should have worn a condom, or just not get laid at all. THATS WHY GOD GAVE US THE INTERNET! Its not always the womans responsibility to prevent herself from getting pregnent. You talk about being an "inanimate semen dispenser" yet you dont seem to talk about doin much more than getting laid. Your points all point the blame on women that they are evil for getting an abortion because they got knocked up.

Imagine this, your a young, 17 year old girl, you got pregnent from your 18 year old boyfreind, and he ran out on you. What do you do? A 17 year old cant raise a child, much less support him/her. And imagine being that child, you would grow up cold and bitter I can only imagine, your mother is always working, never has money, probably blames you because your father left and your the only one their.

Im not an extremest either, and I dont think I have a "weak mind".

Title: Abortion
Post by: Atrocity on May 20, 2005, 01:22:00 PM

QUOTE

Imagine this, your a young, 17 year old girl, you got pregnent from your 18 year old boyfreind, and he ran out on you. What do you do? A 17 year old cant raise a child, much less support him/her. And imagine being that child, you would grow up cold and bitter I can only imagine, your mother is always working, never has money, probably blames you because your father left and your the only one their.

Imagine being that very same child only this in this scenario, the mother decided to stop feeling sorry for herself, realized that she's a fuckup, and decided to better herself. She realized that raising a child wont be easy and actually put forth the effort. I imagine that child would turn out a lot better than he/she did in your story. In your story, you expect nothing of the mother, much like our society.

I find it hard to believe that you really think that a 17 year old mother cannot support a child....look to our history and see just how full of shit you are. It's possible...very hard, but possible.

QUOTE

Cause she's the one who has to go around with a fetus inside her for 9 months, the father sits there and, at best, says "I know what your going through".

9 months? Boo hoo

What is nine months compared to a lifetime of raising, teaching, supporting that child? Give me a fucking break. Stretch marks? Overactive bladder? Morning sickness? Getting *GASP*....fat?! Cry me a fucking river. That's nothing compared to the effort, devotion, hardship it takes to raise a child.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Chupathingy on May 22, 2005, 06:27:00 PM

I believe abortion is sick and wrong. This is because I see abortion as being the same as murder. The way anyone should ever think of it is if they are rapped or if their life is in danger due to complications with the pregnancy.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on May 23, 2005, 08:29:00 AM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ May 23 2005, 07:54 AM)

So what you are saying is we should implement a conception certificate and then when the child is born produce a birth certificate?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Arvarden on May 24, 2005, 08:22:00 AM

Title: Abortion
Post by: mr_kill_666 on May 26, 2005, 03:42:00 PM

, next week im taking my gf to get an abortion. end of story!! literally.

Title: Abortion
Post by: SNMNMNM! on May 26, 2005, 10:35:00 PM

QUOTE(mr_kill_666 @ May 26 2005, 11:53 PM)

next week im taking my gf to get an abortion. end of story!! literally.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Code-Red on June 06, 2005, 02:42:00 PM

I believe in choice. Many good points have been made as to the fact it is the womans body, it is her choice. When it comes down to it, I believe the fetus is a leech or parasite until a certain point, maybe the third trimester is a little late, but the fetus would not live without the mother, and it does not think, or show any similarity to a rational thinking human being, regardless of age.

If you dont like my opinion, I really couldnt care less. If you want to argue with me though, let me say a few things first. You have absoloutly no say on the matter, whatsoever. Forcing your beliefs on other people is wrong (for some reason it seems right in US...Bush pushing religion). Regardless if you think pro choice is disgusting, or wrong, or whatever.... it is not your choice to decide that. Nor, for that matter, is it the governments.

What I find wrong and disgusting though, is you anti-abortion people. For some reason, you think its your business what some woman somewhere in the world does with her unborn fetus. Its not. It may become your business if someone in your life is making that decision, but it is still not your choice.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Code-Red on June 06, 2005, 02:59:00 PM

QUOTE(Atrocity @ May 20 2005, 03:33 PM)

I find it hard to believe that you really think that a 17 year old mother cannot support a child....look to our history and see just how full of shit you are. It's possible...very hard, but possible.
9 months? Boo hoo

Are you stupid? I have 3 female friends who got pregnant when they were teenagers. And you want to know how they turned out?

Mother #1 got pregnant when she was 16. She was going out with a 30 year old, neither of them had jobs. She wanted to get an abortion, but he boyfriend beat her for even thinking of it. Today, she lives off welfair, doesnt have the time to get a job and pay a baby sitter, and raise her child. Her boyfriend was restrained for beating her numerous times. Is that what you think a good life is?

Mother #2 got pregnant when she was 15, and shes about 24 now. She too lives off welfair, smokes weed like a god damn chimney, lives with a druggie boyfriend who deals, and they move from house to house regularily.

Mother #3. I used to hang out with her a long while ago. She used to always be in school, always had a job and nice things. Two years ago she was raped. About 6 months after the rape she dropped out of school, quit her job, and now shes living with a scum bag drug dealer. How did that happen? I dont know, but it did.

I dont have any positive outcomes that would match your moronic story. How the fuck is a 17 year old supposed to graduate from school, maintain a decent paying job, and support her child (and most likely an apartment or home)? You want to answer that? Oh wait, you probably cant. And please dont bother creating some bullshit story to back yourself up. Just save yourselve the trouble and dont post, for lack of knowledge.

Title: Abortion
Post by: xboxbox451 on June 06, 2005, 11:13:00 PM

QUOTE(Code-Red @ Jun 6 2005, 05:53 PM)

When it comes down to it, I believe the fetus is a leech or parasite until a certain point, maybe the third trimester is a little late, but the fetus would not live without the mother, and it does not think, or show any similarity to a rational thinking human being, regardless of age.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Ween311 on June 07, 2005, 08:37:00 AM

QUOTE

Erica Basoria acknowledged asking Flores to help end her pregnancy. But the 17-year-old can't be prosecuted because of her legal right to abortion.

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on June 07, 2005, 12:07:00 PM

QUOTE(Ween311 @ Jun 7 2005, 04:48 AM)

Article

Title: Abortion
Post by: The unProfessional on June 07, 2005, 12:26:00 PM

There's principly no difference between performing an abortion and forcing a miscarriage. I suppose the only difference is that a doctor is licensed and the process of an abortion is approved and tested... probably a great deal safer than jumping on someone's stomach. The courts definitely can't allow this behavior or stupid teenagers would kill themselves while trying the same thing.

The guy shouldn't be charged for murder... that's pure hypocrisy. Rather he should just be charged for assaulting his girlfriend.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Kain462 on June 18, 2005, 09:54:00 PM

I agree 100% with thewickedjester and i think that there should and shouldnt be abortion..rape i believe that it is the girls choice if it wasnt part her decision to have it then she should have the decision...
Kain

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on June 19, 2005, 07:47:00 PM

QUOTE(Kain462 @ Jun 19 2005, 12:05 AM)

Title: Abortion
Post by: dmack_901 on June 26, 2005, 08:32:00 AM

QUOTE(lebriznon @ Apr 14 2005, 03:11 AM)

i dont support abortions.

Title: Abortion
Post by: damam on June 26, 2005, 08:51:00 PM

QUOTE

. . . A 17 year old cant raise a child, much less support him/her. And imagine being that child, you would grow up cold and bitter I can only imagine, your mother is always working, never has money, probably blames you because your father left and your the only one their.

Lance Armstrong was born to an unmarried 17 year old mother and he has just lived a horrible horrible life. My bet is that he wakes up every morning saying "Why oh why did my mother not abort me".

On the other hand because of her selfish selfish decision to keep her child we americans get to vicariously stick it too the frenchies every year.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Jaguar God Imix on June 29, 2005, 06:27:00 PM

when we can kill an innocent unborn but not a convicted criminal... Ok, thats all i have to say.

Title: Abortion
Post by: .:Dino:. on July 21, 2005, 01:54:00 PM

QUOTE

when we can kill an innocent unborn but not a convicted criminal... Ok, thats all i have to say.

well said

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on July 21, 2005, 03:50:00 PM

QUOTE(damam @ Jun 26 2005, 11:02 PM)

Lance Armstrong was born to an unmarried 17 year old mother and he has just lived a horrible horrible life. My bet is that he wakes up every morning saying "Why oh why did my mother not abort me".

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on July 21, 2005, 04:55:00 PM

QUOTE(thewickedjester @ Jul 22 2005, 12:01 AM)

Look, I'm not saying a 17 year old CANT raise a child. My point is that people should have a CHOICE. The daughter of my moms freind is 19, has a child, and barely ever see's her. She's to busy out party-ing to bother with the child. She's a 14 year old trapped in a 19 year old's body, and she isnt fit to be a mother. THESE are the types of people who should have the chioce (again, I emphasize CHOICE) to have had an abortion.

Title: Abortion
Post by: thewickedjester on July 21, 2005, 06:22:00 PM

QUOTE

This sounds a lot more like a cry for an adoption than an abortion.

Not neccissarily, in the end the woman/girl shouldn't have had sex or taken measures to prevent it in the first place. But if it happens, then we have to consider how many kids are waiting for adoption.

Don't get me wrong, I would much rather see a child born and then adopted rather than aborted, but this isnt a disscussion which is better, its a disscussion on the morality of abortion as an act.

QUOTE

So, because she's a shitty mother, then that kid should have died to make her life easier?

Look, in my example, I've met this girl, she is a shitty mother. Its not that she's balancing her social life and her child, she dumps the kid with her mother (the childs grandmother) and doesnt show up for days, when she does show up shes either drunk or stoned off her ass. The grandmother (my mothers freind) is thankfully a good mother and takes very good care of her, but the troubled partying child is about to move out to Colorado (or some state out West) with the father who abuses her, does drugs, drinks HEAVILY, and will probably do some of the same to the child. I dont think thats a good way for a child to grow up in. But the 19 year old wont give her up for adoption. So this child is going to grow up having a pretty shitty childhood.

So whats the alternative there? Granted, she will eventually have the child taken away from her (someone has to call child services, hell I'm comtemplating doing it right now) and she gets addopted, most likely to a loving family. But how long will that take? What mental damage will this kid grow up thinking?

I dont like abortion, I think its horrible, but I do think that its the mothers chioce in the end. Whatever reason, selfish, rape, whatever, its the mothers choice.

Title: Abortion
Post by: puckSR on July 21, 2005, 10:13:00 PM

I do like one idea, make abortion a flat out crime.

Now hear me out on this, if the reason for the abortion is justified, then by all means you have nothing to worry about. Even if the judge is a conservative, and rules against you for personal reasons, you could always appeal.

I mention this because i would wager the vast majority of abortions are completely elective. I know about rape, and other special situations, but honestly how often are they an issue. This is approaching the issue in the wrong direction, you dont use the exceptions to justify the rule. You justify the rule, and then make exceptions.

I, for one, am completely against abortion.
I do however respect the opinion of the courts, unlike a bunch of these American hating bastards.
I dont think that it will now be completely outlawed, but i dont see why the pro-choice people fear concessions.

No one can really justify partial birth abortion, except to say that if you banned it you were on your way to stopping all abortions. Thats not a good enough reason to kill.

As far as the bad mother scenario goes, a flaw. She could have wanted the child and still been a bad mother. I dont really think her actions indicate anything but someone who is irresponsible. Thats a bad thing, her being a mother and all, but its not justification for abortion by a long shot

Title: Abortion
Post by: puckSR on July 22, 2005, 08:07:00 AM

i dont know where you get that?
Basically pro-choice people have said with their support of partial birth abortion that abortion is just one act, there are not any variants or degrees. This is obviously not true, since even if you treat it as a medical procedure, there are still degrees of necessity.

Almost all partial birth abortions occur because of what is perceived as defects with the baby.
They are not childbirth preventitive(since you have to give birth anyway)
they arent due to rape(almost all of those occur in the first trimester),
and they arent protective of the mother(once again the child actually could come out alive or dead, its not going to effect her health in any different way)

Now what if we allowed them all to be born, then if the child was defective, we euthenised it. This would be a much better solution, since there exists a chance that children destroyed through partial birth abortion wont be defective. So the pro-life people win because they save a baby. The pro-choice people win because they get to destroy it if its messed up.

Wait i cant say that, its barbaric, it completely immoral, but it actually would be more logical than a partial birth abortion. So why cant a concession be made on that? Just because someone doesnt want to kill a fully developed baby doesnt mean that they will support the banning of abortion. It just means that they arent so blinded by having to choose sides.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Arvarden on July 22, 2005, 08:18:00 AM

Euthanasia is dangerous game especially if you are on about murdering a defective new born child.

Title: Abortion
Post by: puckSR on July 22, 2005, 08:23:00 AM

im not, im against killing babies

im just saying it makes more sense then some forms of abortion

Title: Abortion
Post by: EverestX on July 22, 2005, 08:40:00 AM

...Um what makes since is having a pill that sterilizes men. The government apparently has something similar to that but hte fda wont approve it.. Since the early 80s.. Here is is 20 years later and we still cant have it I say bull shit..

Secondly, I don't care what anyone thinks. Make abortions illegal, cause , jsut like drugs, sex, and Nuclear weapons, someone will still sell them. And you knwo what I woudl DAMN SURE buy them. Everyone acts like this is such a horrible crime, and that so many people get hurt and blah blah blah.. what a bunch of shmucks. What really hurts people is having to many mouths to feed or kids tht grow up with no one to care for them, or parents who have kids that cant afford them.

I say, screw govt. supplied condoms. Where's my govt supplied abortions, or sterilization for me, or better than all that, Just lay me down on a table, and give me a visectimy.

Title: Abortion
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 22, 2005, 09:50:00 AM

Title: Abortion
Post by: Jaguar God Imix on July 22, 2005, 10:56:00 AM

Yeah, but that is somewhat of a false analogy, but is still correct because it really is no her body it is a dependent being with its own set of 46 chromosomes, which are only 50% the mother's.

But there is no real difference to me killing the unborn and the born.

Another thing:

Isnt kinda messed that you cant kill a convicted murderer butyou canan innocent child?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Statecowboy on July 22, 2005, 11:21:00 AM

OK, enough religion.

Also, the "it's my body" argument can be held for the baby too, who speaks for it?

Do you guys remember when that psycho whore killed that pregnant lady and stole her "fetus", which turns out as soon as she cut it out of the mom's belly became a "baby"? Well what's the difference?

I don't believe I can force my opinion on other's however. This is why we live in a demcoracy. People may vote on laws the way their convictions lead them. This means that if one of my friend's are pro-choice...which a lot are, I won't hate them, just disagree with them.

Title: Abortion
Post by: EverestX on July 22, 2005, 12:01:00 PM

Yeah murder isn't the christain way, jesus just told them to slaughter thousands that wouldn't convert on the crusades.

Title: Abortion
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 22, 2005, 12:06:00 PM

QUOTE(EverestX @ Jul 22 2005, 02:12 PM)

Yeah murder isn't the christain way, jesus just told them to slaughter thousands that wouldn't convert on the crusades.

Title: Abortion
Post by: pepsik on July 22, 2005, 12:33:00 PM

QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Jul 22 2005, 08:17 PM)

You might want to research the Crusades...............and the difference between Christianity and Catholicism

Title: Abortion
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 22, 2005, 12:38:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 22 2005, 02:38 PM)

Yeah lets do that

Title: Abortion
Post by: puckSR on July 22, 2005, 12:45:00 PM

good response

all i was saying is that catholics are christians too
since catholicism teaches that Jesus was the messiah. They also think Jesus=God, just like you. I didnt say christians were catholics, i said catholics were christians

Title: Abortion
Post by: Statecowboy on July 22, 2005, 12:48:00 PM

QUOTE(EverestX @ Jul 22 2005, 02:12 PM)

Yeah murder isn't the christain way, jesus just told them to slaughter thousands that wouldn't convert on the crusades.

Title: Abortion
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 22, 2005, 01:14:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 22 2005, 02:56 PM)

good response

Title: Abortion
Post by: EverestX on July 22, 2005, 01:22:00 PM

... I was kidding about jesus commanding them to do it.. Damn, you guys took that way too serious. I was jsut amking a joke..

Hoever the crusades were none the less a bunch of not jobs that are/were christain. And my pops is catholic and my mom is church of christ, they may not see eye to eye on shit but they still think Jesus was a savior of some sorts. So they are both christian. ..

"Jesus" I know now not to bring you to an abortion debate next time...
-- My point in that statement is that people of all faiths, social classes, an races can be fore or against abortion. Some are, some aren't, and some people blow up abortion clinics usually killing some people becsaue "Abortion is wrong" But they dont feel that killing a bunch of people at one isn't.. WTF?

Title: Abortion
Post by: Statecowboy on July 22, 2005, 01:55:00 PM

QUOTE(EverestX @ Jul 22 2005, 03:33 PM)

... I was kidding about jesus commanding them to do it.. Damn, you guys took that way too serious. I was jsut amking a joke..

Title: Abortion
Post by: EverestX on July 22, 2005, 02:06:00 PM

Man this might piss all you off, but fuck it it's an abortion topic.
kids are the devil they terrify me.. if a girl tells me she is pregnant, she is getting into my car, and going to have an abortion, no questions asked. There is no other option. I refust to have another me running around, god knows we dont need antoher one of them.. plus even if I tell her to get an abortion and she doesnt she can take me to court and make me pay child support for the rest of my life for some little shit I never wanted. Women use kids like a leash on some guys, it aint happening to me. And dont pull that adoption bill on me.. Who wants to harbor something in them for 9 months they wont keep. And what about crack heads. You think we need more Base head babies? Shit I know with all the shit I have donte in my life if I *had* a kid it would probley have 3 arms, be deaf, and never be able to function in life. the only thing that is worse than not ever being able to function in life is not being able to stop it befoer it happens/

Title: Abortion
Post by: Statecowboy on July 22, 2005, 02:15:00 PM

There's an esier way to not have to worry about child support, it's called wearing a condom or abstinence. Practice a little common sense and you won't have to worry about those things. And there are a lot of people who have messed up and got pregnant and made the wise decision for their baby to give it up for adoption, because they weren't just thinking about themselves, but for their child. Just because you give it up for adoption doesn't mean you're dooming it, it probably will have a better life.

Title: Abortion
Post by: EverestX on July 22, 2005, 02:23:00 PM

"because they weren't just thinking about themselves, but for their child"

You're right.. cause they are HAVING it.. I sure wouldn't, Casue I wouldn't ever plan on having it. You make it sound like I frequent abortion clinics with multiple broads all the time. .fact is I have had one my chicks get in that situation *KNOCKS ON WOOD*.. Casue I know better. But none the less i nthe event, you know what waiting room I would be in.

Title: Abortion
Post by: pepsik on July 22, 2005, 02:38:00 PM

this is the same debate that has been in the section of the forums since we got a political section, I'm not going to post my views on this, just search and you'll find the many topics found on this.

Title: Abortion
Post by: sn4k13s on July 22, 2005, 02:44:00 PM

keep your wiener in your pants then.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Tony42077 on July 22, 2005, 03:47:00 PM

QUOTE(pepsik @ Jul 22 2005, 10:49 PM)

Title: Abortion
Post by: pepsik on July 22, 2005, 04:13:00 PM

QUOTE(Tony42077 @ Jul 22 2005, 11:58 PM)

Gee, thanks for chiming in Pepsik. That really helped to furthur the discussion. Almost as much as I am helping it right now. I can't wait to search for your previous replies...

Title: Abortion
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 22, 2005, 04:56:00 PM

There is a point to chime in. You should let others know your feelings on the subject, but there is no need to debate. Everyone is different and has different views. Why argue over if it is right or not? There is a reason we live in a democracy.....................

The problem is.......................many people don't vote. They bitch about everything yet fail to voice their opinion.

Title: Abortion
Post by: Jaguar God Imix on July 25, 2005, 09:36:00 PM

werd

Title: Abortion
Post by: Snoopster J on July 25, 2005, 11:44:00 PM

All's been said already, and simply put, I'm against abortion. And picking up on what Jaguar God Imix said, it is really scary how our modern world fits the description of what the book of Revelations in the Bible says.

Title: Abortion
Post by: BoNg420 on September 05, 2005, 06:34:00 PM

hmm old topic but i wanted to give my opinion. I believe abortion is a good thing to have around. I mean sure you are taking a life, but its better to end it early then later. Look at it this way. Woman is raped and gets pregnant why should she keep the child? They have been tramatized(sp?) enough so why keep the kid as a bad memory. The next thing is when some skanky slut that sleeps with every guy gets pregnant. Sure she should keep the baby. Then you have to look at it this way..Baby is born...she kills it and we have another dumpster baby or something, why should that have to happen, let her get an abortion. or the other scenario the girl has the baby, isnt ready for it, ignores it and treats it like shit. So kid isnt raised right, not even parents ready for kids are ready lots of times. They let there kids do whatever, they are spoiled little pieces of shit that do whatever because their parent wont tell them no. The other reason I believe in abortion is if you find out your child might be retarded or have some serious isssues with health. There is no point in letting the child have to go on. I mean its difficult for the parents and the kid can't live a normal life. Also taking care of the child might cost the parents to much $$ and they shouldnt have to live with the burden of having to take care of a retarded child. The final one is the parent thats not ready and isnt a raging slut/whore. If they arent ready for the child they have the choice to choose whether they keep the child or have an abortion. I look at life this way. All these people are angry and dont agree with stem cell research. Look at it this way. We kill a young calf to eat veal. We do studies on animals and use them in labs. Not every person except for stupid ass vegetarians or animal freaks get upset over that. So what makes a human life more important then the life of an animal? Nothing we are both animals. So why get upset over abortions? If you dont like abortions, then do this. Don't eat anything made with chicken eggs, doh, there goes most deserts and breakfast. Quit eating meat and animal bi products.. If you think all life deserves a chance then don't eat the animals. Enough said. Everyone has a choice, it might not be the right choice but let me ask you this again, what is worse..a fetus being removed from a woman's body? or a mother/father killing a 9 month + old born child that went through the whole pregnancy? I know you might say well they are both murder, but in the end what is worse?

Title: Abortion
Post by: 1evol on September 05, 2005, 09:50:00 PM

QUOTE(dmack_901 @ Jun 26 2005, 11:43 AM)

Women have had to give birth for thousands of years, and I understand it hurts, but... get over it. You can't just say, "oops, the condom broke"; "oops, I forgot to take the the pill"; "oops, I didn't know I'd get pregnant".

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