Post by: Heet on November 04, 2004, 12:48:00 AM
Post by: SniperKilla on November 04, 2004, 12:51:00 AM
| QUOTE (Heet @ Nov 4 2004, 08:51 AM) |
| Just wondering how you folks are doing. |
licking their wounds..
waiting on further instruction from micheal moore
Post by: fishlord on November 04, 2004, 01:46:00 AM
Post by: cainedna on November 04, 2004, 05:29:00 AM
I've adopted the attitude that we deserve whatever we've got coming. Filter that statement through your own political beliefs, I'll do so with mine.
Post by: OrkanMan on November 04, 2004, 06:46:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| I actually voted for Kerry...before I voted against him. |
I accidently voted against a gay marriage ban before I realize what I did. So, I can actually say that I voted for gay marriage before I voted against it.
Post by: Ween311 on November 04, 2004, 07:31:00 AM
| QUOTE (itsame @ Nov 4 2004, 10:28 AM) |
| We are packing warm clothes and heading to Canada. Universal health-care eh? |
I heard that very thing on the radio news this morning while I was driving to work. Appearantly, Canadian officials don't want Americans pouring over their borders. Disgruntled Americans are being made to go through the same immigration process as every other immigrant and it may take as long as a year to be able to move to Canada. Nothing wrong with that. Its their rules, so just be ready for a wait if that's what you want to do.
Post by: bluedeath on November 04, 2004, 08:37:00 AM
| QUOTE (Ween311 @ Nov 4 2004, 04:34 PM) |
| I heard that very thing on the radio news this morning while I was driving to work. Appearantly, Canadian officials don't want Americans pouring over their borders. Disgruntled Americans are being made to go through the same immigration process as every other immigrant and it may take as long as a year to be able to move to Canada. Nothing wrong with that. Its their rules, so just be ready for a wait if that's what you want to do. |
We are just dying to get to Canada. Riiiiiggggghhhhhhttttt......
Why would anyone opt to move to Canada. So you can stand in the cold saying
"it's cold I wish I had a job"
Screw Canada's fake socialized medicine. Shitty doctors and extra shitty care. Oh but they have the pills real cheap.
Post by: gcskate27 on November 04, 2004, 08:54:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| "it's cold I wish I had a job" |
as opposed to "its not quite so cold, but i still have no job... wonder if theyll start the draft?"
Post by: bluedeath on November 04, 2004, 08:57:00 AM
| QUOTE (gcskate27 @ Nov 4 2004, 05:57 PM) |
| as opposed to "its not quite so cold, but i still have no job... wonder if theyll start the draft?" |
I have a great job. I don't know what everyone is complaining about. If you were stupid enough to go to school and get a information systems management degree then you deserve to watch the Indians replace you.
Post by: pug_ster on November 04, 2004, 08:59:00 AM
The only thing that I would hate to see is what is going to happen to the senate where the moderates and centrists are getting squeezed out and replaced by right and left wing politicans. Since there's a right wing president, the left wing and even some of the moderate Republicans will have to watch out for the President's 'mandates.' So I wouldn't be surprised that we would see even more bikering in the house and senate fighting over these 'mandates.'
Post by: bluedeath on November 04, 2004, 09:01:00 AM
| QUOTE (pug_ster @ Nov 4 2004, 06:02 PM) |
| Personally, it doesn't really affect me that much if Kerry gets elected or not. Maybe I am in a state of denial. But I figure there's more to life than thinking about politics. The only thing that I would hate to see is what is going to happen to the senate where the moderates and centrists are getting squeezed out and replaced by right and left wing politicans. Since there's a right wing president, the left wing and even some of the moderate Republicans will have to watch out for the President's 'mandates.' So I wouldn't be surprised that we would see even more bikering in the house and senate fighting over these 'mandates.' |
There's more to life than politics and yet you continue to rant on after making that statement.
Post by: Colonel32 on November 04, 2004, 09:44:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| WASHINGTON In the weeks after the fall of Baghdad, Iraqi looters loaded powerful explosives into pickups and drove the material off the al-Qaqaa ammunition site, according to a group of U.S. Army reservists and National Guardsmen who said they witnessed the looting. The soldiers said about a dozen U.S. troops guarding the sprawling facility could not prevent the theft of the explosives because they were outnumbered by looters. Soldiers from one unit the 317th Support Center based in Wiesbaden, Germany said they sent a message to commanders in Baghdad requesting help to secure the site, but received no reply. |
http://seattletimes....50_qaqaa04.html
Post by: pepsik on November 04, 2004, 09:51:00 AM
the quiet is general shock. Don't worry we will mobilize soon. Marches are being planned. Protests will continue. I'm waiting to see how many republicans join the unemployment line this time around.
Post by: thomes08 on November 04, 2004, 09:54:00 AM
Post by: rahula on November 04, 2004, 09:58:00 AM
Post by: OrkanMan on November 04, 2004, 10:17:00 AM
Post by: OrkanMan on November 04, 2004, 10:27:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| won by a lot? i hope you are basing that on the electoral college, because 51 to 48 or 49 is not a lot. also consider the first time he was elected, he didn't even win the popular vote, so i wouldn't say republicans are a majority. |
You are such a biased democrat...
Al Gore did get the popular vote in 2000....but he only had 500K more votes that Bush. This year, Bush had 3,000,000 more votes than Kerry.
Post by: feflicker on November 04, 2004, 10:34:00 AM
I am gonna give him ANOTHER chance though. Good press conference this morning... Let's see if he can unite, and not divide, like he originally set out to do
Post by: pepsik on November 04, 2004, 12:00:00 PM
| QUOTE (Colonel32 @ Nov 4 2004, 06:56 PM) |
| just out of curiousity what do you plan on protesting? democracy? he won, by a lot . Nothing you can do about that, you are the minority |
1. War
2. Support for Israel's treatment of palestinian settlement camps.
3. Patriot Act
4. The National Deficit $7,453,605,645,512.99
5. Unemployment
6. Healthcare Reform
The issues are still the same, it's just going to take another 4 years of moving backwards.
The majority here in California isn't the same as the rest of the country
Post by: socrates on November 04, 2004, 03:58:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| We are just dying to get to Canada. Riiiiiggggghhhhhhttttt...... Why would anyone opt to move to Canada. So you can stand in the cold saying "it's cold I wish I had a job" Screw Canada's fake socialized medicine. Shitty doctors and extra shitty care. Oh but they have the pills real cheap. |
You dumg american hick climb off your sister and listen to this for a sec if ya can understand my langue due to me being canadian, IT IS NOT FREEZING COLD HERE, IT IS AS COLD HERE AS IT IS IN NEWYORK AND WHEN YOU CROSS THE BORDER THERE ARE NO IGLOO AND ESKIMOS EATING WHALE BLUBER OR AS YOU WOULD CALL IT, YOUR MOM, WE HAVE JOBS AND WE HAVE LIVES HERE AND WE HAVE CONTRIBUTED MORE THEN MOST PEOPLE KNOW TO WAR SCIENCE AND EDUCATION AND HELTH WE HAVE DONE MORE FOR THE WORLD BESIDES KILL PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELVES SO WHEN YA FEEL THE NEED TO BE AN IDIOT AND CLAIM SHIT ABOUT OTHER COUNTRYS THAT YOU DONT KNOW JACK SHIT ABOUT JUST CLIMB BACK ONTO YOUR SISTER AND PASTE THAT PIC OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS DOG BACK OVER HER FACE AND GO TO TOWN........*nd uncommen canadian out burst*
Post by: socrates on November 04, 2004, 04:09:00 PM
.......i have just as much right to say american hicks as you have to say freezing cold canucks,, i could carless what you think, BEGONE now
Post by: socrates on November 04, 2004, 04:10:00 PM
Post by: socrates on November 04, 2004, 04:16:00 PM
Post by: The unProfessional on November 04, 2004, 04:20:00 PM
And socrates, yeah... watch out. I have nothing better to do all day than cook up ways to attack you. Same goes for my comrades.
Post by: Spency234 on November 04, 2004, 04:30:00 PM
| QUOTE (awal @ Nov 4 2004, 08:26 PM) |
either that or we beat you into submission.  |
UH OH it's a tough guy!!!
Do you realize how pathetic what you just said was?
Post by: rahula on November 04, 2004, 04:39:00 PM
Post by: socrates on November 04, 2004, 04:45:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| And socrates, yeah... watch out. I have nothing better to do all day than cook up ways to attack you. Same goes for my comrades. |
Spoken like a true american
I and my comrades would eat your army alive
....well we would need a little mustard to dampen the taste a bit but we would make due
Post by: Spency234 on November 04, 2004, 05:00:00 PM
Post by: socrates on November 04, 2004, 05:02:00 PM
Post by: socrates on November 04, 2004, 05:04:00 PM
Post by: Colonel32 on November 04, 2004, 06:39:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| you probably would, that is why nobody likes the canadians |
You obviously have never been out of the United States before.Ps. Nice to see ya posting Soc. Kokanee on me
Post by: OrkanMan on November 04, 2004, 06:54:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| It is so hard to not be depressed when all the rural bible-thumpers in fly-over country decided that Dubya is the man to represent us to the world because they think "God" wants him to be President. |
Yeah, sure, Ohio is just "fly-over country". Um, let's see...it is the 7th most populated state in the country...has six professional sports teams...has the football hall of fame...has the rock n roll hall of fame...air force museum...has at least four major cities...and it claims more presidents than any other state.
And the reason you are depressed is because you're a democrat. I, however, am feeling very good about the election. But please, don't be so naive to think that it was only Christians that voted for George Bush.
I've said it before, and I will probably say it again.....people constantly bring up Christians into every discussion on this forum. For some reason, there are people out there that want to believe that it was 3,000,000 Christian "bible-thumpers" that put George Bush over the top.
EDIT: Ohio also has the World's highest ranked amusement park: Cedar Point.
Post by: powercntrl on November 04, 2004, 06:54:00 PM
Besides, I really don't consider myself a liberal, I'm more of a conservative in the true meaning of the word. I prefer a small government that stays the fuck out of peoples' lives.
Post by: socrates on November 04, 2004, 06:58:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Ps. Nice to see ya posting Soc. Kokanee on me |
Thanks man nice to be posting again
Post by: powercntrl on November 04, 2004, 07:12:00 PM
| QUOTE (OrkanMan @ Nov 4 2004, 09:57 PM) |
| I've said it before, and I will probably say it again.....people constantly bring up Christians into every discussion on this forum. For some reason, there are people out there that want to believe that it was 3,000,000 Christian "bible-thumpers" that put George Bush over the top. |
The republicans just did a better job getting people off their ass and to the polls. It's estimated the total voter turnout was 59.5% of registered voters. Bush got roughly 58 million votes. According to this old ass (2001) study I found on the web, there's 159 million Americans that identify as Christian. That means only 36.4% of Christians would have to vote to give Bush his win if EVERY SINGLE VOTE WAS CAST BY A CHRISTIAN.
The Christians in this country are truly a force to be reckoned with. Do not think for one second you're in some kind of underdog position.
Post by: gainpresence on November 04, 2004, 07:36:00 PM
| QUOTE (powercntrl @ Nov 4 2004, 11:15 PM) |
| The republicans just did a better job getting people off their ass and to the polls. It's estimated the total voter turnout was 59.5% of registered voters. Bush got roughly 58 million votes. According to this old ass (2001) study I found on the web, there's 159 million Americans that identify as Christian. That means only 36.4% of Christians would have to vote to give Bush his win if EVERY SINGLE VOTE WAS CAST BY A CHRISTIAN. The Christians in this country are truly a force to be reckoned with. Do not think for one second you're in some kind of underdog position. |
Just remember that Kerry ran on his Christianity just as much as Bush (possibly more so). According to CNN exit polls, 56% of voting Christians (Protestant+Catholic) voted for Bush, and 44% for Kerry.
Also, identifying as a Christian in the USA is like identifying as Anti-Bush in Europe, it's just the thing to do, even if you don't care one way or the other
Post by: gcskate27 on November 04, 2004, 07:40:00 PM
Post by: IheartHuckabees on November 04, 2004, 07:53:00 PM
| QUOTE (gainpresence @ Nov 5 2004, 04:39 AM) |
| Just remember that Kerry ran on his Christianity just as much as Bush (possibly more so) |
from what ive read (and from one of the debates were kerry said he doesnt wear his religion on his sleeve like bush) this hurt him, and showed that he didnt put christianity ahead of him as much or more then bush
Post by: mike96sc2 on November 04, 2004, 07:55:00 PM
Post by: K98 on November 04, 2004, 08:12:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| this issue brought out a ton of christians (bush only won by 100,000 in ohio, and that was without counting the 180,000 uncounted votes left before kerry conceded) |
You quoted Kerry numbers there. Bush won by 150,000 votes and there werent 180,000 uncounted votes. They are called provisional ballots and i have heard maybe 60% get counted in the end.
| QUOTE |
| The Christians in this country are truly a force to be reckoned with. Do not think for one second you're in some kind of underdog position. |
Dems have african americans and hispanics on their side. So dont say Christians cost you the election. They should of did a better job registering those voters.
| QUOTE |
| if an engaged couple bought a house, they both cant own it, so if one dies, the other is fucked) |
It has been brought up before, get a damn will if your worried about this.
Post by: pug_ster on November 04, 2004, 09:41:00 PM
Not just that, since 48% of the Americans didn't vote for him, he assumed that those 48% would agree on his dumbass domestic issues.
Post by: brandogg on November 04, 2004, 10:03:00 PM
Post by: pug_ster on November 04, 2004, 10:08:00 PM
Post by: dss311 on November 04, 2004, 11:14:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Bush in the Office for the 2nd term and he is talking about reforming Social Security and Tax reform which will profit the financial companies and the Rich. |
Pug_ster,
Damn, you are sour about everything. Bush is just stating he is looking at REFORMING those two items. There is no mention of how he intends to accomplish this. For all we know, he may have some clever idea that you may agree with. Have you heard something that I may have missed? Maybe you have an idea that will please everyone. I think we all can agree, these two issues do need to be re-examined.
DSS311
Post by: feflicker on November 05, 2004, 12:21:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Yeah, sure, Ohio is just "fly-over country". |
I wasn't really talking about Ohio, and wasn't really being all that serious anyway...
Let's just be honest, look at the red states... The VAST majority is rural america. Sure, you can point out some populated areas in there, that isn't the point.
That is why the middle is called "The Heartland", these people aren't know for being intellectuals. In all fairness, this isn't a blanket rule... I am speaking GENERALLY, so chill before you flame, after all, I am unfortunate enough to be currently residing in a red state
With that all said, I am giving this guy a second chance. He seems to be sincere in his latest pleas to unite the country, fix the mess in Iraq, heal the relations with other countries, etc. Let's just hope he isn't talking out his ass again
Post by: powercntrl on November 05, 2004, 03:18:00 AM
Post by: OrkanMan on November 05, 2004, 08:32:00 AM
Post by: feflicker on November 05, 2004, 09:15:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| which is a shame becuase CA and NY certainly do not reflect the way the rest of the country feels |
That is the main difference between us (Liberal vs Conservative)!
We feel that middle America needs to *progress* and catch up to us, not that we need to digress into the past and join them
Whether you like it or not, the trend is that people are becoming more liberal and more progressive. We just have to wait for the next retired generation to die and the vast majority of Americans who vote will no longer be conservative... It can't be stopped, it is just a matter of time.
Remember, the exit poll information that supports your claim only takes into account PEOPLE WHO VOTED. If you poll all Americans, the majority *does* feel the way CA and NY feel... It is just a shame that these people didn't vote. That is the true letdown of this election, the majority once again was not heard because they were once again turned off by politics
Post by: OrkanMan on November 05, 2004, 10:26:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Whether you like it or not, the trend is that people are becoming more liberal and more progressive. We just have to wait for the next retired generation to die and the vast majority of Americans who vote will no longer be conservative... It can't be stopped, it is just a matter of time. |
I agree.
Post by: pepsik on November 05, 2004, 11:09:00 AM
We passed a controversial stem cell research law here, that will make our state the leader in medical research worldwide, all you pro-lifers need to STFU because I work at the top facility for research here in cali and I'm sure when you or a family member gets terminaly ill, you'll be on a plane looking for a cure and embracing the efforts we make to better our society instead of repressing the advancement of our progress. Unwanted children are usually adopted by gay and lesbian couples, causing further breakdown of the "values" america is trying so hard to try and achieve. Statistically divorce rates are higher than ever and so is teenage pregnancy, leaving many more single parents to try and raise children causing an even further breakdown of the "values", the statistics show that a child with divorced parents will eventually be divorced later in life. It's a downward spiral of social, economic and moral values. I don't think strengthening morality will solve the current trend in america, but atleast I look at the big picture.
Post by: Heet on November 09, 2004, 07:14:00 AM
Post by: feflicker on November 09, 2004, 09:10:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| And blaming the fact that they are "turned off to politics" to be a valid excuse? |
I wasn't really making excuses... There is no excuse for all these people who complain about the way the country is run and they never vote, or get involved. It seems like every time I get into an argument with anyone about the direction of this country (especially in my age group) all I have to do is ask when the last time they voted was. Sadly, it is usually never.
The point I was making is that the so-called "majority" of people who are for Bush are only the majority of people who voted on Nov 2nd. Heck, they aren't event he majority of registered voters, yet alone the majority of America. I just wish the majority voice would be heard, that these slackers would get involved and vote!
I disagree with one thing you said though. I don't think you need to know everything about every issue, and I don't think you have to be actively involved in politics to be able to make a good decision in the voting booth. Furthermore, I don't think *wanting to vote* is a pre-requisite for an "intelligent" vote
Post by: pug_ster on November 09, 2004, 10:33:00 AM
Nixon got elected also twice because he got support from the Evangelicals because he basically campagained with them. There's no way for those roe v wade will be overturned and a amendment banning gay marriage will happen. Like Nixon, Bush is another president who took advantage of Christians.
Post by: powercntrl on November 09, 2004, 02:19:00 PM
Post by: Wong Hung Lo on November 09, 2004, 04:10:00 PM
| QUOTE (powercntrl @ Nov 9 2004, 05:22 PM) |
| Maybe Bush should draft the gays. That way he'd take care of that pesky gay marriage thing and have plenty of people to send over to Iraq all in one fell swoop. It's the patriotic thing to do. After that, he'll have more time to spend on figuring out how to increase the price of crude oil. |
Post by: gainpresence on November 09, 2004, 07:14:00 PM
Post by: Heet on November 09, 2004, 10:18:00 PM
Furthermore, I don't think *wanting to vote* is a pre-requisite for an "intelligent" vote"
Thats a good thought. An even better thought is "staying home and not voting is intelligent". Man am I the one that is screwed up here?
Bloto-AI the U.S. is better off than any of the blue regions. There is a reason for that. The U.S. also sends funds to every one of those regions. There is a reason for that too. Thinking like the masses just for the sake of "belonging" to the masses stays in highschool. When those countries start sending us money to help us out of problems then I will say that we should listen to them. I guess we should have voted like the spineless spanish.
Post by: feflicker on November 10, 2004, 12:24:00 AM
I don't think the 300+ Million people who didn't vote are displaying a lack of intelligence. I can't find the connection between intelligence and voting, just like I couldn't find the connection between Iraq and 9/11
If that makes me screwed up, then so be it
Post by: Heet on November 10, 2004, 01:16:00 AM
Post by: feflicker on November 10, 2004, 09:58:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Right, you are saying it is intelligent not to vote. Ok, I guess we disagree |
That is not what I am saying! I am saying that there are intelligent people who do not vote, LOTS OF THEM. And because they did not vote, that does not make them un-intelligent! There is no direct relationship between people who vote and people who are intelligent!
| QUOTE |
| I would actually argue that the majority of unintelligent/uneducated people dont vote |
That is true as well. Of course it is, just by shear numbers. Only 60% of registered voters even voted. That is still only 15% of the US population.
| QUOTE |
| I guess we just outlined why the country is split |
The country is split because the younger generations (and people who live in modern cities) are enthralled with science/technology/logic/reason/progress/, and the older generations are laying it all on the line for morals/values/tradition/.
In terms of how I want to be governed, I choose option "A" every time.
Another big problem is that there are too many people who cannot seperate Church from State in their politics. I hear on the news EVERYNIGHT, some conservative hack say something like "God gives us the rule of law, without God their is no law", or "Everything I do in life, every decision I make, is with God in mind". When you say things like that I HEAR: I don't work for the government for the good of the people, I work for God to do his will. The scary part is that these people believe it is the SAME THING
That is a BIG problem. I believe there is a Right and a Wrong, and that it can be legislated without bringing everyones God(s) into it. I don't believe there is a direct relationship between the Rule of Law and God.
Post by: Wolfblade13 on November 12, 2004, 11:47:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| that is why nobody likes the canadians |
well i like the canadians, they dont go flaming a country they dont know shit of
Post by: blueshogun96 on November 12, 2004, 06:31:00 PM
| QUOTE (Wolfblade13 @ Nov 12 2004, 08:50 PM) |
| well i like the canadians, they dont go flaming a country they dont know shit of |
agreed
btw: Liberals are never quiet. They are either put to shame or put out of buisness.
Post by: Maximumbeing on November 12, 2004, 08:14:00 PM
Post by: Heet on November 15, 2004, 12:49:00 AM
*You have it wrong holmes. The liberals want more of those type of jobs (burger flipping) and thats why they were fighting so hard for a minimum wage increase.
Post by: pegasys on November 15, 2004, 05:55:00 AM
Post by: pug_ster on November 15, 2004, 08:36:00 AM
| QUOTE (Maximumbeing @ Nov 13 2004, 05:17 AM) |
| Ok, sorry for my absence, I was building my bomb shelter. Just getting ready for the "winter cleaning" of the middle east. Here's to 4 more years of wishing Amerika didn't suck. |
Too late, it has already started with Bush's 'Mandate' toward the next 4 years...
Adding to Pegasus' comment, if you think about it, most of the troops serving in Iraq come from the Bush country in the heartland. Figure that most of the troops couldn't get into college and they join up to fight in the War instead. These folks in the southern and heartland states either flip burgers or fight in a War.
| QUOTE |
| *You have it wrong holmes. The liberals want more of those type of jobs (burger flipping) and thats why they were fighting so hard for a minimum wage increase. |
This makes no sense. Unless you live with your parents, a normal person making $5.15 an hour working 40 hours a week couldn't pay money for food, rent, and bills. That is why 'liberals' would like a wage increase.
Post by: gronne on November 15, 2004, 10:16:00 AM
| QUOTE (Heet @ Nov 10 2004, 07:21 AM) |
| Bloto-AI the U.S. is better off than any of the blue regions. There is a reason for that. The U.S. also sends funds to every one of those regions. There is a reason for that too. |
Well here's where reality sets in. USA might aid poor nations with money, but what does that matter when you get more back in debts? It's like the most stupid argument ever. It doesn't matter how much you twist and turn it, USA TAKE money from poor countries instead of GIVING. Americans often talk about their lovely aid to the rest of the world, but always leave out that they take a lot more.
Post by: Ween311 on November 15, 2004, 11:22:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Adding to Pegasus' comment, if you think about it, most of the troops serving in Iraq come from the Bush country in the heartland. Figure that most of the troops couldn't get into college and they join up to fight in the War instead. These folks in the southern and heartland states either flip burgers or fight in a War. |
You have a pretty messed up vision of the south and the heartland states. Have you ever been to the south?
Post by: Baner on November 15, 2004, 11:43:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Adding to Pegasus' comment, if you think about it, most of the troops serving in Iraq come from the Bush country in the heartland. Figure that most of the troops couldn't get into college and they join up to fight in the War instead. These folks in the southern and heartland states either flip burgers or fight in a War. |
That's nice... How about the thought that northerns are just to ignorant and pussy to fight in a war? Kinda sucks being singled out doesn't it?
Being from the south, I find the above statement pretty ignorant. I don't see anything different with a country kid form the south, and a kid who lives in the boondocks of New York (don't forget that the whole state ain't one big city just because thier capital is named New York.
), the same can go for a city kid of Atlanta and New York. Ever think that maybe Southerns have more of a record of serving in wars, which means the parents of the children who are serving in the War in Iraq were in the military. Most of the time, when your parents are ex-Military, you tend to follow their path.
Post by: Baner on November 15, 2004, 11:50:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| There should be more jobs like this, there will always be more stupid people to work there than to go to college and become doctors, lawers ect. Think about what would happen if no child was left behind. If everyone was a doctor healthcare would be cheaper, ad noone would be sick. But then there would be noone to cook food, noone to pick up the garbage, noone to clean your schools or teach your children. Te thing is if that every one has the knowledge to make upwards of 200,000 dollars a year they won't want to make <15,000 flipping burgers. There is a reason the class structure has always been a pryamid, well exept for communisum where everyone is = but hat does not work. Just think what would happen to our country if GWB's plan accually worked. |
I'm going thru college, but I don't plan on becoming a Doctor, or Lawyer, or anything else high paying. It's not because the amount of school wrk that needs to go into it, but because it doesn't appeal to me. Many people in thier years as an upper classman realize whta they want to do, what they are good at. Some want to be mechanics, cars appeal to them and they enjoy working on them. Some want to build space shuttles, more power to them. Some get sick of school, drop out, and are underqualified to do anything that requires post-public school training. It's not the teachers fault, why did the rest of the kids go off to college; it's not our presidents faults, the majority of schools are equipped enough to educate our children; it might but the parent's fault, your children do need a push every no and then; most of all, it's the students want to go on to create a good life for himself, no one can force them to become a lawyer.
Post by: pegasys on November 15, 2004, 12:37:00 PM
Post by: damam on November 15, 2004, 02:14:00 PM
| QUOTE (pegasys @ Nov 15 2004, 09:40 PM) |
| Exactally so why push all of this money and time to Have no Child left behind when in the end it's the kids choice to be sucessfull. I don't like the way GWB runs on no child left behind when it is a waste of money and will not and should not work. |
the idea that NCLB is directly about the kids is somewhat of a misnomer. The kids only benefit indirectly.
As someone who works in the education field, I truly think the idea is brilliant. It finally forces teachers to be accountable. NCLB will reward the hard working teachers, and finally get rid of the slacker teachers that are destroying america. Which is why the teachers unions are trying to shut it down with the BS propaganda you have probably been reading. The union has never been interested in the lively hood of kids. I could really go on and on about this cause the Teacher culture in america is absolutely pathetic, and someone needed to give them a kick in the ass. I know because I work with educators of all grades every day. As far as costs goes, thats been the most controversial part of it. It is basically a non-funded mandate. So quit whining about all the money thats being spent. Its not anymore than in the pre-bush era.
Hopefully, we can get rid of some lousy teachers in the process because before NCLB it was nearly impossible to fire a teacher.
Post by: pug_ster on November 15, 2004, 02:23:00 PM
| QUOTE (Baner @ Nov 15 2004, 08:46 PM) |
| That's nice... How about the thought that northerns are just to ignorant and pussy to fight in a war? Kinda sucks being singled out doesn't it? Being from the south, I find the above statement pretty ignorant. I don't see anything different with a country kid form the south, and a kid who lives in the boondocks of New York (don't forget that the whole state ain't one big city just because thier capital is named New York. ), the same can go for a city kid of Atlanta and New York. Ever think that maybe Southerns have more of a record of serving in wars, which means the parents of the children who are serving in the War in Iraq were in the military. Most of the time, when your parents are ex-Military, you tend to follow their path. |
I am just saying that in poorer states where there is little employment opportunties for young adults are in the Armed Forces. It is most likely that it is more likely to happen to heartland states as well as other democratic states like Michigan, Ohio, etc...
Post by: Baner on November 15, 2004, 02:30:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Exactally so why push all of this money and time to Have no Child left behind when in the end it's the kids choice to be sucessfull. I don't like the way GWB runs on no child left behind when it is a waste of money and will not and should not work. |
Completely did a 180 from your last post?
The program allows students who want to excel the chance. Relating this program to the slackers is pointless, they don't use the resources they have, but the ones who want to go into furture education can.
Post by: pegasys on November 15, 2004, 02:48:00 PM
Post by: damam on November 15, 2004, 03:48:00 PM
| QUOTE (pegasys @ Nov 15 2004, 11:51 PM) |
| Taking away money from schools when their students don't do well is just wrong, and the whole voucher system is just stupid. It's on the road to privatising education which is just un-American. I'm gonna have to live with it for another 4 years regardles so w/e. |
first - the money doesnt get taken away immediately, they are given several years to get there acts together.
second - each state determines what a good school means as far as test scores. So its not like GWB is up there telling your state what a good school is.
in education there is a saying:
when the horse dies, get off of it
this horse died a long time ago, history has proven that throwing more money at it does not work. History has also shown that reducing class sizes does not work. And the list goes on.
The teachers Union will try to tell you that financial incentives dont work. The truth is that that really has never been studied and tested. The one study that they always quote is riddled with problems. THe most obvious of which was the duration of the study (1 semester). And, I might add, the study was funded by the teachers union.
No conflict of interests there In the county I live in we have an open enrollment program, which is basically the same as a voucher system only you must choose between public schools only. It forces our public schools to compete against each other for students, and consequently money, since the Fed Gov give money according to attendance. This has worked really well here. We have seen consistent improvement in test scores for the entire duration of the project (abt 4 yrs).
Freedom of choice is always American, voucher's would only increase freedom of choice and the responsibility of the parents. Which is the way it should be.
Post by: Baner on November 16, 2004, 12:06:00 PM
I don't understand how you can complain about our education. I was thought in suburban schools, most in small towns with a high school class of 2,200 students, 300 Seniors when I graduated. The school i've been to have taught me everything I needed to know, and I graduated with a 3.4. I've said this before, it's no ones but the students problem. They are the reason why they aren't exceling in school... that and the problem with prescription drugs... ridilin... it's a drug for a fake disease.
Post by: pegasys on November 16, 2004, 12:33:00 PM
Post by: damam on November 16, 2004, 12:37:00 PM
| QUOTE (Baner @ Nov 16 2004, 09:09 PM) |
| parent would go with the closest and best free transportation, cause most of them are too lazy to research the school and take their kids everyday. |
were actually finding that many parents do take the initiative to get their kids to the best schools or get their kids the help that they need . . . of course there are exceptions, but the exceptions are no worse off then they were before
| QUOTE |
| I don't understand how you can complain about our education. I was thought in suburban schools, most in small towns with a high school class of 2,200 students, 300 Seniors when I graduated. The school i've been to have taught me everything I needed to know, and I graduated with a 3.4. I've said this before, it's no ones but the students problem. They are the reason why they aren't exceling in school... that and the problem with prescription drugs... ridilin... it's a drug for a fake disease. |
I complain because are educational system is falling drastically behind the rest of the worlds. The computer industry is one of the best examples because foreigners have really dominated programming for a long time. Long before outsourcing was a problem, people complained about how companies were bringing in foreigners for these positions. Well, maybe we should really be asking why wasnt our labour pool skilled enough to fill these jobs? I dont think I have it any longer, but if you can read the TIMSS report on how the US stacks up against the rest of the world. Herse a link
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/
I dont think our educational system is irredemable. But it definitely needs to be shaken up. Heres an example. Why does a first grade teacher need tenor? Tenor is for the academic freedom to teach unpopular ideas, not to protect teachers for incompetance. What does that mean to a first grade teacher? That the teacher should have the freedom to teach 2+2=9? Yet after just 10 years of teaching a k-12 teachers automatically get tenor, after which time it is nearly impossible to fire them. There are teachers who do need tenor, primarily AP govt and litirature classes, but really the rest dont. No system can work when it is impossible to get rid of bad employees. If you never had a bad teacher then you were very lucky.
Post by: damam on November 16, 2004, 12:47:00 PM
| QUOTE (pegasys @ Nov 16 2004, 09:36 PM) |
| I like our educational system the way it was a few years ago back in the sequential 1 2 and 3 days which they are going back to in NY anyway. Ijust don't like how people vote for Bush based on this stupid plan. In my shool if you attend you pass, because you are tought, the onlu kids who don't learn, and i doun't think school should be penalised for that because there is no way for the school to control that. |
its the job of the teacher to find ways to engage you so that you want to learn. Few kids want to do work. Thats a given, and its also the challenge every teacher takes on when they go into this profession. There will always be students who simply dont have the desire to even come to school, but statistically they should not effect your rolling 5 year average if you are a good teacher.
There was a study done a couple years ago, I cant remember the name, but it showed that if you took a student who was in the 90% of his grade level and gave him to three bad teachers in a row, that student at the end of three years would be at the 40%. When they took a student who was at the 30% of there grade level and gave them to three good teachers in a row, they were at the 70% after three years.
Moral of the story: teachers do matter, good teachers do get results, and bad teachers should be gotten rid of
Post by: pug_ster on November 16, 2004, 12:53:00 PM
But one thing bad about this NCLB is that it mandates a certain standard of a student to pass a test otherwise he/she will be left behind. So the lesser funded schools have no choice but to cut funding for other things but to teach them how to pass this test and nothing else.
Post by: damam on November 16, 2004, 02:27:00 PM
| QUOTE (pug_ster @ Nov 16 2004, 09:56 PM) |
| True that we should have better teachers. Some teachers should get paid more too. |
I have no problem rewarding good teachers monitarily. Its the teachers union that has a problem with it.
One thing to keep in mind, a teachers salery, generally speaking is for 9 months worth of work. In my state the average teacher after 5 years of working without a MS or PHD, makes about 40,000 a year (abt 1000 more than I make a year). If you convert that to 12 months that same teacher is making just over 53,000 a year. That is roughly 26,000 more than the average person made in my state in the year 2000. The idea that teachers are over worked and underpaid may have been true at some point, but its not true today. (yes i live in a poor state)
Of course, I know nothing of the teacher situation in other states as far as income goes. But when your figuring things out its something to keep in mind.
| QUOTE |
| But one thing bad about this NCLB is that it mandates a certain standard of a student to pass a test otherwise he/she will be left behind. So the lesser funded schools have no choice but to cut funding for other things but to teach them how to pass this test and nothing else. |
Thats partially true, the test in my state has over 40,000 questions with more coming every year so it is sort of hard to teach for the tests. The best you can do is focus on general topic areas like reading comprehensions, math/logic, etc. The tests are concept oriented.
Also mentally retarded students and other ADA qualified students (like autism) are given a pass. Another thing that helps out in this area is the expected improvement. In other words the student has a track record that it must keep up with. For example if the student improves by 10% a year, it is almost always expected to improve by 10% give or take a little. So it basically nullifies any worries about students with IQ's between 70 and 90. On the other hand, and this is where the teachers get really annoid, high IQ students are expected to advance at the same rate too. In the past, teachers always relied on high IQ students to pull up there averages and at the same time basically ignored them. Now they cant do that. Ignoring them will actually bring down there averages.
I also want to stress that it is a rolling average (ie a repeated track record of under achievement by teachers) that leads to cut funding. So it is very hard for a single student to effect a school or teachers track record. And the funding does not get cut right away either - they are given ample opportunity to get things working right well before funding gets cut. Also, most schools now recognise synergies between topics and realize that cutting some programs hurts them even more in the long run - but you are right the cuts will have to come from somewhere.