Post by: Mr. Chips on July 22, 2004, 01:16:00 AM
the other is "beleive in GOD" which even demons can answer yes to.
so in fact I won't answer because am a follower of Jesus.
As for bias, yes, there is definately one...
...but how can you expect to get a proper statistic, if you don't give "the other side" a chance to weigh in?
Don't forget, some believe in many gods as well
Post by: Mr. Chips on July 22, 2004, 07:05:00 PM
I'll let it go, and see if my deciphering is any good.
| QUOTE |
| Sorry let me clarify myself what is your state of virtue. LOL |
great, you are redefining the poll question. but you should have put quotes and a question mark ...but it's still understandable.
| QUOTE |
| As for correcting you ,"Whomever has the son has the father." Follower of Jesus in the literal sense is all you can be and that not possible anymore since it has long been since his mortal life. "All praise be to the Father in Heaven." |
Of course I cannot follow Jesus in the literal sense, as he is in heaven. That does not mean you need to correct me, I am following Jesus' teachings. Most people are familiar with this metaphor, so I used it. It broadens the spectrum of people who accepted Jesus Christ as saviour. I didn't want to just say "Christians" because there are also Messianic Jews who accepted Jesus.
But I don't see the significance of those verses to your arguement.
| QUOTE |
Sorry  I don't remember the notes in the bible for those passages I just have alot of stuff in my head from constant study of it.And yes this poll sucks real bad but if you can answer heck by all means. I hope moderators can erase this since I don't know how to chage questions. |
You gave it a good enough try ! There aren't many straight shooters to be honest in the political forums. But please, please work on the grammer, and punctuation
Post by: AnThRaX on July 22, 2004, 07:23:00 PM
Post by: EmperorPsiblade on July 22, 2004, 07:26:00 PM
Post by: Reaper527 on July 22, 2004, 09:02:00 PM
Post by: cityson on July 23, 2004, 05:50:00 PM
Post by: manasol on July 23, 2004, 06:06:00 PM
Same way I felt.
But know that all good things are from GOD.
HE does not work in wickedness he gives goodness.
Whatever may have happened to you is a test. Can you see this yet who knows but only you.
I am a sinner no doubt. I try to stay clean which is impossible as one of the flesh but I stumble very much on my face.
But trials like you say (bad things) only to the person who has interest in the temporal things or in the temporal things which are but a speck in the grand time.
Religion or not people know trials build your character.
Let me give you an example:
John the Baptist, a man who knew and was born of the Holy Spirit that Jesus was the Son of God sinned. As expected as a man. But here is the thing was he not beheaded?
Classified by some why did GOD let that bad(evil) thing happen?
Well John was in jail full well knowing Jesus is the Christ he sends men to Jesus saying That if he were the one or should they look for another.
Jesus then tells them to tell John "again" what you see the lame walk the blind see.
Excuse me for the long reply I am no saint and if you want to reprove this fine I am a man of sin and nothing.
I hope life treats you well bud and grace to ya.
SRy if any errors I don't want to reread it lol.
Post by: manasol on July 23, 2004, 07:16:00 PM
Post by: Dark_Link2135 on July 23, 2004, 08:04:00 PM
and just because you said not to:
Post by: manasol on July 24, 2004, 01:38:00 AM
I hope your faith strengthens.
My personal problem is the word. I see that to "shape up" I must keep a diligence in reading the scriptures. Proverbs 1 around there it says "in his law I meditate day and night," now I am not that obedient unfortunately but in keeping to reading daily it hlps a bunch. Trust me no trust the word about the mustard seed you must nourish it with good
so the it may flourish. Remember NOURISH it.
May God bless you through Jesus.
Post by: melon on July 24, 2004, 04:15:00 PM
Think about all the war, famine and horiffic trajedies that happen every day.
If you steal you get free stuff.
If you mug someone you get free stuff.
Rape
murder
I can go on...
Even in business, to be succesfull you have to kiss ass and back stab. To be promoted you have to trample over everyone else whilst elbowing someone out of the way.
The corporation has to exploit people in sweat shops. In your country 10% of the population controls 90% of the wealth. The world is a fucked up place. And if god exists we have him to thank for that. So thanks a lot and fuck you!
flames please
Post by: manasol on July 26, 2004, 10:19:00 AM
Post by: darkslider802 on July 26, 2004, 10:25:00 AM
Post by: Baner on July 26, 2004, 12:30:00 PM
).@Cityson - God moves in mysterious ways... if there were no disasters, famines, and wars. Our world would be overpopulated and our technology would be far behind its time. Our greatest achievements have been during war.
I, myself, am a believer in God, but do not worship as much as I wish too. I blame this on my inability to fight off "the other spirit". I do goto church and confess my sins. I pray for forgivness often, and play with the cards I'm dealt with no remorse.
Sorry for the long thread... got a bit carried away
.
Post by: thomes08 on July 26, 2004, 04:38:00 PM
BTW i love how "god" is a he, makes sense doesn't it? Didn't think so
thomes08
Post by: melon on July 27, 2004, 01:49:00 AM
manasol i really didnt have a clue what that last post was about.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction
Cant belive your using Einstien to show there is a god!
Im basing my opinions on corporate life on my work experiances and those of close friends. In most companies you have to be a sly arse to get anywhere. It takes hard work as well but if you have two people going for a promotion, they both work at the same level but one of them brown noses the boss and bitchs about the over ones quality of work within earshot of the boss, that person 90% of the time will get the job.
Post by: Mr. Chips on July 27, 2004, 03:11:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| ummm.... i'm more scientific than gullable. Gods made sense waaay back in the day when humans didn't understand things such as rain, fire, lightning, sun, moon, waves, the meaning of life, all that good stuff. Then people began to think about stuff and most of those questions becam answered over the next few thousand years. Now we still don't know things like the meaning of life (my opinion: survive) and stuff like that so humans lumped in all into one god, not 50. The jews are right, christians are right, muslims are right.... see what i'm getting at here? SOOO many religious things were PROVEN wrong through science, but the things we don't understand people explain by a "god", but there are many different versions that claim to be right. I wish people would just start thinking for themselves. BTW i love how "god" is a he, makes sense doesn't it? Didn't think so thomes08 |
so many religions were proven wrong throug science? Never. Have you even heard of the study of MetaPhysics? It's what we can't see-- unexplained events or occurances which violate laws which govern the universe. You cannot deny these happen every day!
Have you ever heard of Newton, Faraday or Pascal? Probably the smartest men to ever live, and the original, true scientists.
GOD is not a HE, "he" is beyond gender. I always find it funny when people try to argue his "gender"....so just to switch it up once in a while I say she, cuz really it doesnt matter.
Post by: gcskate27 on July 27, 2004, 03:42:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| so many religions were proven wrong throug science? Never |
he said 'religious things', and by that he meant, as an example, the people who used to attriubte thunder to a god because they didnt know what caused it...
but i love the topic title of this thread...(when read with your typical chrsitian in mind)
* and do not take that as a bash towards every christian or christianity in general, its far from it...
Post by: jesusphreak on July 27, 2004, 01:37:00 PM
A battery has a positive and negative charge....
A battery using only positive charge won't work....
A battery using only negative charge won't work...
Faith is just like it.....if everything was positive, the battery wouldn't run (there would be no need for faith), but if everything was negative, the battery wouldn't run (there is no reason to have faith)....
I thought that was interesting...
Post by: thomes08 on July 27, 2004, 05:03:00 PM
thomes08
Post by: melon on July 27, 2004, 05:49:00 PM
and manasol you are implying people who dont belive in god are somehow imoral!!
Post by: shadolnk on July 28, 2004, 01:13:00 AM
Post by: Baner on July 28, 2004, 06:22:00 AM
As for Melon, They call comparisions of two Unlike things metaphors. This helps people understand the relavence of the topic on hand. (You might want to learn your physics too, electrons and protrons aren't the same as a negative and positive charge of a battery)
(Not trying to put words in your Manasol, tell me if this isn't the point your trying to get across.)
Manasol isn't saying nonbelievers are imoral, he is just stating that nonbelievers have a greater chance of being "pushed" in the wrong direction, unlike believers, who have an outside force that helps push them back on track.
Post by: melon on July 28, 2004, 07:40:00 AM
Post by: Baner on July 28, 2004, 09:06:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Your intelligence is like a porn star with micro-penos....somewhat lacking, as far as im aware thats a metaphor, and very childish |
That would be a similie, you used like or as to compare your two unlike things... I suggest you make sure you don't make a fool of yourself when trying to undermine another's intelligence.
Post by: melon on July 28, 2004, 12:04:00 PM
Post by: AkumAPRIME on July 28, 2004, 12:18:00 PM
Post by: gcskate27 on July 28, 2004, 02:08:00 PM
| QUOTE (Baner @ Jul 28 2004, 06:25 AM) |
| As for Melon, They call comparisions of two Unlike things metaphors |
actually, they battery thing was an ANALOGY... and its NOT a comparisson of two unlike thing...
and back at ya...
| QUOTE |
| I suggest you make sure you don't make a fool of yourself when trying to undermine another's intelligence. |
Post by: HydroBob on July 28, 2004, 02:22:00 PM
Post by: gcskate27 on July 28, 2004, 03:32:00 PM
Post by: thomes08 on July 28, 2004, 03:43:00 PM
thomes08
Post by: melon on July 28, 2004, 04:19:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| You also have the many prophecies in the Bible that literally and exactly describe events that would happen centuries later. |
Maybe Jesus came back to us in the form of Nostradamus
Post by: manasol on July 28, 2004, 10:26:00 PM
As for the others questioning you they only tempt.
"sorry but you cant just say 'theres tons of evidence!' without actually providing any... wink.gif" - GCSkate
The evidence is there for your looking "Everyone has to find the scriptures for themselves"(from a great guy). Either for good or bad. Thats was not a smart comment he is not in this world to make you a believer and free you of your chains of habits, etc.
The stuff out there work for it to make a good opposition at least.
Post by: shadolnk on July 29, 2004, 12:22:00 AM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Jul 28 2004, 10:29 PM) |
You obviously have failed to study Christianity in-depth at all. Period. You've also failed to account for the empirical evidence of what caused the Big Bang. Period.... I'm sorry to be harsh or anything, but to come in here and mouth off a comment like that is pretty ignorant. Christianity has a whole lot of evidence that is empirical. We have tons of a historical records and even more modern day miracles. You also have the many prophecies in the Bible that literally and exactly describe events that would happen centuries later. Christianity has plenty of evidence for it being the true religion, you just gotta look. |
Genesis 1 only states that God created the Heavens and the Earth, not the entire universe or big bang.
Cosmologist agree that since time began at the big bang, and there was no time prior to the big bang, it does not have a cause. Quantum mechanics demonstrates that events don't need a prior cause, such as nuclear radiation or particle-antiparticle pairs appearing in the vacuum. (thanks, Shmanky!)
From TalkOrigins:
| QUOTE |
| Some questions are harder to answer than others. But although we don't have a full understanding of the origin of the universe, we are not completely in the dark. We know, for example, that space comes from the expansion of the universe. The total energy of the universe may be zero. Cosmologists have hypotheses for the other questions that are consistent with observations [Hawking 2001]. For example, it is possible that there is more than one dimension of time, the other dimension being unbounded, so there is no overall origin of time. Another possibility is that the universe is in an eternal cycle without beginning or end. Each big bang might end in a big crunch to start a new cycle [Steinhardt and Turok 2002] or, at long intervals, our universe collides with a mirror universe, creating the universe anew [Seife 2002]. One should keep in mind that our experiences in everyday life are poor preparation for the extreme and bizarre conditions one encounters in cosmology. The stuff cosmologists deal with is very hard to understand. To reject it because of that, though, would be to retreat into the argument from incredulity. Creationists can't explain origins at all. Saying "God did it" is not an explanation, because it doesn't rule out any possibility, or even any impossibility. In the explaining game, cosmologists are far out in front; creationists are still asleep at the starting line. |
http://www.talkorigi...c/CE/CE440.html
Post by: Mr. Chips on July 29, 2004, 01:41:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Genesis 1 only states that God created the Heavens and the Earth |
No, the original hebrew word heaven means everything outside of our atmosphere !
So that IS the entire universe!
| QUOTE |
| Creationists can't explain origins at all. Saying "God did it" is not an explanation, because it doesn't rule out any possibility, or even any impossibility. In the explaining game, cosmologists are far out in front; creationists are still asleep at the starting line. |
hahaha, yeah right, so typical of evolutionists, using the straw man attack....
majority of them have not a clue as to what we beleive... you can't tell me what they beleive is better...a single celled organism cannot come from goo, it is more complex than a space shuttle.
you want to see Real creationism? trueorigin.org
that's if you bother to read it ...
Post by: Baner on July 29, 2004, 06:11:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| sorry but you cant just say 'theres tons of evidence!' without actually providing any... |
So what eveidence do you have the God doesn't exist?
Post by: shadolnk on July 29, 2004, 06:44:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Shado, do you believe in chance? ...you never answered my first question. |
I first wanted to clarify your definition of "luck".
I believe that chance / randomness plays a role in evolution. So yes, I guess you could say I belive in chance....
I'm pretty sure I know where you're going with this. -- You may want to consider this following links:
http://www.talkorigi...nce/chance.html
http://www.talkorigi...e-theistic.html
| QUOTE |
| So what eveidence do you have the God doesn't exist? |
"In any discussion where two or more people are seeking proof of the existence of something and in this case God's existence, both opponents should agree on the same thing. I think you and I would agree that the natural universe exists.
Since it is the theist's making the claim for the existence of God and the supernatural, it would be unfair for the theist to demand that the atheist disprove God's existence. Since I assume that we agree on nature, both opposing sides should start with the non-existence of God and then the believer should argue for the existence of God and not demand that I the atheist argue against it.
In other words the burden of the proof rests on the shoulders of the believer since you are the one claiming that God exists."
Source:
http://www.iidb.org/...ead.php?t=90020
Post by: Baner on July 29, 2004, 08:50:00 AM
). Wow... I just had a revalation. Thinking that time doesn't really exsist either, just a state of mind and a tool used to keep schedule in our lives. Then i thought about conscious and how we use that to prove right or wrong. Which led me to believe that God isn't something that exsist, even in the afterlife, but rather a state of miind a person can have. I'm sure this theory is widespread, but I just now reliezed that's how I picture God.
So i guess what I'm saying is that there is no God, unless you believe there is one.
Post by: gcskate27 on July 29, 2004, 12:02:00 PM
| QUOTE (Baner @ Jul 29 2004, 06:14 AM) |
| So what eveidence do you have the God doesn't exist? |
im not saying i have any, but im not the one claiming theres proof...
*read this after i post my reply
| QUOTE |
| the burden of the proof rests on the shoulders of the believer since you are the one claiming that God exists |
Post by: Baner on July 29, 2004, 12:40:00 PM
Good luck(chance
) fighting a battle that been going on for thousands of years, I found my definition of God and I'm happy.
Post by: gcskate27 on July 29, 2004, 05:11:00 PM
if not, and you concede that animals can be 'selected' and bred for specific purposes, to have more desirable, stornger traits by man, then why couldnt this happen naturally?
natural selection makes sense... evolution makes sense...
*i have had people say that this is true...
Post by: darkslider802 on July 29, 2004, 05:15:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| id like to hear a creationists view on dog breeds... was every breed around at the time of "creation"?* if not, and you concede that animals can be 'selected' and bred for specific purposes, to have more desirable, stornger traits by man, then why couldnt this happen naturally? natural selection makes sense... evolution makes sense... *i have had people say that this is true... |
yes i does ,but it doesnt make sense that people evovle form apes ,just because we have smililar charaistics, i can breath ,well a dog can breath i can run ,a dog can run ,that doesnt mean i evoled from a dog ,
Post by: Mr. Chips on July 29, 2004, 05:54:00 PM
Post by: darkslider802 on July 29, 2004, 05:57:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| that's "variation" you mean. It's more likely that all the breeds and wolves came from 2 dogs on noah's ark 4400 years ago, than all dogs and everything moving came from a rock. by the way I agree this topic should be closed. akumaPrime already started new topics for these discussions |
no there is a possiblity and plsu whats the shit about a rock , a rock has nevered lived ,rock is nothing like living?so whats the deal with that
Post by: Mr. Chips on July 29, 2004, 06:04:00 PM
Post by: shadolnk on July 29, 2004, 06:06:00 PM
| QUOTE (darkslider802 @ Jul 30 2004, 12:18 AM) |
| yes i does ,but it doesnt make sense that people evovle form apes ,just because we have smililar charaistics, i can breath ,well a dog can breath i can run ,a dog can run ,that doesnt mean i evoled from a dog , |
The theory of evolution doesn't suggests you evolved from apes... it suggests we all share a common ancestor.
Post by: shadolnk on July 30, 2004, 12:45:00 AM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Jul 30 2004, 05:55 AM) |
| That common ancestor is generally thought of as being apes, though. |
Yeah, they're thought to be more apelike than human.
Post by: ..[[ModBoxMaster]].. on July 30, 2004, 03:19:00 AM
Post by: xFusioNx on August 03, 2004, 03:31:00 PM
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 03, 2004, 05:49:00 PM
| QUOTE (..[[ModBoxMaster) |
| ]..,Jul 30 2004, 03:22 AM] who ever put anything other than belive in god.. sorry but yall are all going to hell.. but no offense i hope ya have a good time in the lake of fire... but dont mind us well just be up in paradise while yall burn with hitler...the point is if you dont belive in god ur still going to hell.. this means you too darkslider802... if you do belive in god and dont worship him.. you will go to hell but.. suit yourself... just make sure to say your prayers... on the bed b4 u go to bed and u will be saved lol |
And I'm just gunna refer you to my posts made on this thread... don't be such an ignorant prick.
EDIT:haha... forgot tha link
As for this...
| QUOTE |
| "Most advocates of evolutionism subscribe to a set of naturalistic and mechanisticif not humanisticphilosophical presuppositions, attaching a fundamentalist bias to their perspective." |
Ur telling me that creationist aren't biased? I'd say creationists are tha most biased. I didn't read tha whole site, but I can already tell it's full of shit just by that statement right there.
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 02:14:00 PM
| QUOTE (EmperorPsiblade @ Jul 22 2004, 08:29 PM) |
| lemme put it this way: if there is a god... i'm going straight to hell |
Cool, another chance to prove Hell doesnt exists.
Where in the Bible dose it say hell is even real? It doesnt. This is one of mans teaching. Mostly brought about by the Catholics. Same gos for Purgatory. The Bible makes no referee to it, and is you really research it, its a pagan belief that sins can be burned away with fire
Ecclesiastes 9:5 says: "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" If the dead are conscious of nothing, that means they wouldnt be conscious of a hell. Do you think a loving God would create such a place for endless torture? God IS love as stated at 1 John 4:8 "He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."
Also, when a person dies he is forgiven for his sins. Romans 6:7 states that "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." When you die and you are acquitted from your sins, how can you go to hell to suffer for your sins when all your sins have been acquitted? There are many other things in the Bible that prove Hell isnt real and that a loving God would not create such a place.
I used the New World Translation to prove my point.
Im sure most of you use the King James version of the Bible, and just to show what Im saying is true I will show what the KJV has to say, it more or less says the same thing.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing.
1 John 4:8 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Romans 6:7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 04, 2004, 02:34:00 PM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 4 2004, 02:17 PM) |
| Cool, another chance to prove Hell doesnt exists. ...... (just cuttin' down on tha size )...... Romans 6:7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin. |
Are you mormon? (Just curious)
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 03:56:00 PM
| QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 4 2004, 03:37 PM) |
| Are you mormon? (Just curious) |
No I'm not a Mormon. Do the Mormons use the New World Translation? On the other hand, whens the last time you say a Mormon with the Bible?
But to answer your question, no I'm not a Mormon, I'm a Witness. As for using the KJV of the Bible at the end of my post, it was only to show that not even the KJV says theres a hell.
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 04, 2004, 04:58:00 PM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 4 2004, 03:59 PM) |
| No I'm not a Mormon. Do the Mormons use the New World Translation? On the other hand, whens the last time you say a Mormon with the Bible? But to answer your question, no I'm not a Mormon, I'm a Witness. As for using the KJV of the Bible at the end of my post, it was only to show that not even the KJV says theres a hell. |
I don't know who uses what bible... I was just wondering because of tha fact that you don't believe in hell (just like mormons)
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 05:16:00 PM
| QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 4 2004, 06:01 PM) |
| I don't know who uses what bible... I was just wondering because of tha fact that you don't believe in hell (just like mormons) |
The Mormons don't believe in hell huh? At least they got some thing right.
Guess its true, you do learn some thing every day.
Post by: thomes08 on August 04, 2004, 05:35:00 PM
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 04, 2004, 05:56:00 PM
Post by: EmperorPsiblade on August 04, 2004, 06:02:00 PM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 4 2004, 04:17 PM) |
| Cool, another chance to prove Hell doesnt exists. Where in the Bible dose it say hell is even real? It doesnt. This is one of mans teaching. Mostly brought about by the Catholics. Same gos for Purgatory. The Bible makes no referee to it, and is you really research it, its a pagan belief that sins can be burned away with fire Ecclesiastes 9:5 says: "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" If the dead are conscious of nothing, that means they wouldnt be conscious of a hell. Do you think a loving God would create such a place for endless torture? God IS love as stated at 1 John 4:8 "He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love." Also, when a person dies he is forgiven for his sins. Romans 6:7 states that "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." When you die and you are acquitted from your sins, how can you go to hell to suffer for your sins when all your sins have been acquitted? There are many other things in the Bible that prove Hell isnt real and that a loving God would not create such a place. I used the New World Translation to prove my point. Im sure most of you use the King James version of the Bible, and just to show what Im saying is true I will show what the KJV has to say, it more or less says the same thing. Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing. 1 John 4:8 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Romans 6:7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin. |
ummm i meant like that i've done alot of horrible things....
is yelling at noobs a sin?
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 08:06:00 PM
| QUOTE (EmperorPsiblade @ Aug 4 2004, 07:05 PM) |
| ummm i meant like that i've done alot of horrible things.... is yelling at noobs a sin? |
Huh?
Post by: rms2001 on August 06, 2004, 07:34:00 PM
Hell
Definition: The word hell is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read the grave, the world of the dead, and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered hell; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew sheohl´ and its Greek equivalent hai´des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge´en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).
Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?
Eccl. 9:5, 10: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going." (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*Sheol, AS, RS, NE, JB; the grave," KJ, Kx; hell," Dy the world of the dead," TEV.0
Ps. 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish. (*Thoughts, KJ, 145:4 in Dy; schemes, JB; plans, RS, TEV.)
Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?
Ezek. 18:4: "The soul* that is sinningit itself will die." (*Soul, KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; the man, JB; the person, TEV.)
The concept of soul, meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the body, . . . does not exist in the Bible.La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.
Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as soul, it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as soul but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means life, or vitality, or, at times, the self.The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.
What sort of people go to the Bible hell?
Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?
Ps. 9:17, KJ: The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God. (*Hell, 9:18 in Dy; death, TEV; the place of death, Kx; Sheol, AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)
Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?
Job 14:13, Dy: [Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me? (God himself said that Job was a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.Job 1:8.) (*The grave, KJ; the world of the dead, TEV; Sheol, AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)
Acts 2:25-27, KJ: David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (The fact that God did not leave Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*Hell, Dy; death, NE; the place of death, Kx; the world of the dead, TEV; Hades, AS, RS, JB, NW.)
Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?
Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*Hell, Dy, Kx; the world of the dead, TEV; Hades, NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)
Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?
Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.The Encyclopedia Americana(1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.
Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered sheohl´ as hell, the grave, and the pit; hai´des is therein rendered both hell and grave; ge´en·na is also translated hell. (2) Todays English Versiontransliterates hai´desas Hades and also renders it as hell and the world of the dead. But besides rendering hell from hai´des it uses that same translation for ge´en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai´des six times, but in other passages it translates it as hell and as the underworld. It also translates ge´en·na as hell, as it does hai´des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.
Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?
Matt. 25:46, KJ: These shall go away into everlasting punishment [lopping off, Int; Greek, ko´la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal. (The Emphatic Diaglott reads cutting-off instead of punishment. A footnote states: Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.)
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. (*Eternal ruin, NAB, NE; lost eternally, JB; condemn them to eternal punishment, Kx; eternal punishment in destruction, Dy.)
Jude 7, KJ: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. Gods judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were destroyed; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)
What is the meaning of the eternal torment referred to in Revelation?
Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou´] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
What is the torment to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth. Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic beast and his image are said to be tormented with fire and brimstone. This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because the dead know not any thing. (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by Gods servants that worshipers of the beast and his image will experience second death, which is represented by the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone. The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience torment forever and ever in the lake of fire and brimstone, what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone means the second death. So the Devils being tormented there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word torment (from the Greek ba´sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a jailer.RS, AT, ED, NW.
What is the fiery Gehenna to which Jesus referred?
Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression ge´en·nan tou py·ros´ as hell fire (KJ, Dy), fires of hell (NE), fiery pit (AT), and fires of Gehenna (NAB).
Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of ones whole body into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.
At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to fear him that can destroy in Gehenna. By referring to the soul separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a persons life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the fiery Gehenna have the same meaning as the lake of fire of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, second death.
What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?
Rom. 6:23: The wages sin pays is death.
After ones death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?
Rom. 6:7: He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.
Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with Gods personality?
Jer. 7:31: They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart. (If it never came into Gods heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)
Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his childs hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? God is love. (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!
By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?
Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a parable in story form without reference to any historical personage. If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on ones fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
What does the parable mean? The rich man represented the Pharisees. (See Lu 16:14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.Acts 5:33; 7:54.
What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness. (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendoms hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.
But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means Slanderer), the one whom Jesus Christ called the father of the lie.John 8:44.
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 09, 2004, 04:58:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| I'm not bashing anyone, but why is it that you guys (whitnesses) go door to door to preech to everyone? Ur the only religious group that I know of that does that. It's kinda like pop-ups and spam. If I wanted it, I think I'd ask for it or persue it myself. |
Nobody's answered my question...
lol
Post by: rms2001 on August 09, 2004, 06:25:00 PM
| QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 9 2004, 06:01 PM) |
| Nobody's answered my question... lol |
Sorry Owtlaw, I missed your question in the heat of debate.
Witnesses are not the only group that gos Door to Door. The Mormons do it as well.
We preach door to door as per what Matthew 24:14 says: And this good news will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations;
Also Matthew 28:19, 20: 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.
That sums it up really. We cant be sitting around waiting for people to ask us about God. We take the word of God to the people as Jesus told us to do.
Post by: krustytheclown on August 09, 2004, 06:33:00 PM
| QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 9 2004, 07:01 PM) |
| Nobody's answered my question... lol |
Well, the easiest answer, is that God and Jesus tells us to.
Matthew 24:14
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
This is just one of the many scriptures telling us to go out and preach the good news. Also, the reason why we are the only ones who go out and preach door to door, is that we follow what the bible tells us, unlike most other religions.
Post by: melon on August 09, 2004, 06:44:00 PM
You guys really make me laugh
Post by: rms2001 on August 09, 2004, 11:01:00 PM
| QUOTE (melon @ Aug 9 2004, 07:47 PM) |
| This is exactly what I was talking about. You guys really make me laugh |
What about us is so funny?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 10, 2004, 01:13:00 AM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 9 2004, 06:28 PM) |
| The Mormons do it as well. |
I know they kinda do it... but my understanding of them is that they go to tha houses of people who are referred or requested to have them come to their house.
But I don't know for sure, and really don't care... you already answered my question.
Post by: rms2001 on August 10, 2004, 01:29:00 AM
| QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 10 2004, 02:16 AM) |
| I know they kinda do it... but my understanding of them is that they go to tha houses of people who are referred or requested to have them come to their house. But I don't know for sure, and really don't care... you already answered my question. |
Cool, at lease one person is listening
As for the Mormons going door to door at request of the person this may be true, but they seem to knock on my door all the time. I never asked them to come over, next time they do I'm going to invite them in and have a nice little chat with them.
Post by: krustytheclown on August 10, 2004, 01:46:00 AM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 10 2004, 03:32 AM) |
| Cool, at lease one person is listening As for the Mormons going door to door at request of the person this may be true, but they seem to knock on my door all the time. I never asked them to come over, next time they do I'm going to invite them in and have a nice little chat with them. |
I never had them come to my door, until a couple of months ago. Never asked for them to call on me.
Post by: thomes08 on August 10, 2004, 11:31:00 PM
Post by: rms2001 on August 11, 2004, 03:02:00 AM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 10 2004, 10:24 PM) |
| I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the door to door command in that verse. To say that you are the only group doing what God (Jehovah) commanded because you go door to door is kind of stupid, honestly. You miss so many people just going door to door, it isn't even funny.... May the love of Christ be with you, jesusphreak... |
Youre about as hard headed as a goat arent you?
We do not miss people be going door to door. We go to just more than homes you know. Whens the last time you saw some one run up to a Church, burst in and say Teach me about God!
In the world we live in people have no time to cook a home cooked meal (for the most part) People try to cram so many things together at once. Been driving down the road, seeing guys shaving, women putting on make up, and even people reading the Wall Street Journal while driving! And that really scares me.
Any way, if these people dont even have time to do what they should have at home, what makes you think they have time for the Bible? People like this can be shown it dose not take long to get to know and love God. But we dont find these people at home normally, we find them at work, thats why we also preach the good news in the business territory.
Oh, and thomes, don't you have any thing better to do?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 11, 2004, 02:47:00 PM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 11 2004, 03:05 AM) |
| Oh, and thomes, don't you have any thing better to do? |
Someone could say tha same thing to you, but obviously none of us do have anything else better, haha
Post by: rms2001 on August 11, 2004, 06:53:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| You are meeting you advancement into heaven. |
Well as Im not part of the 144k that will go to Heaven, I have hope to live in paradise here on Earth.
Post by: rms2001 on August 12, 2004, 03:34:00 AM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 12 2004, 03:40 AM) |
| I'm not saying going door to door is wrong man, I'm just saying it isn't the only way..... |
Who said we only go door to door?
Post by: thomes08 on August 12, 2004, 09:02:00 AM
thomes08
Post by: BigMitch on August 12, 2004, 07:10:00 PM
Post by: jesusphreak on August 12, 2004, 08:01:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| For one I never said it was the only way. Its the most commen way we do our preaching work but we also have many other forms of preaching. |
Well, you, Krusty, and rms, all implied that JWs are the only ones doing it right because they are going door to door.
| QUOTE |
| You turned it into and argument. |
I did? I recall the your first post saying:
"Four kinds of Christians! Does that not show you anything? Even the "Christians" are divided!
I am a Christian in that I believe in Christ Jesus, but as Gods son AS IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE!"
You obviously are trying to get someone's attention using those caps...
If I've made it an arguement, you've continued it, and if you really didn't care, you could always stop. Don't call wrong on me if you yourself are involved in it.
| QUOTE |
Thats another way we preach to those willing to learn, we have weekly puplic talks open to anyone. We never said going from door to door is the only way to be "saved" as you would put it. |
Well that's awesome, but again, you, Krusty, and rms all implied that the correct form of evangelizing was door to door, and because other Christians denominations aren't doing that, they aren't fulfilling Christ's commands. I said nothing about being saved as YOU have put it.
| QUOTE |
| Also are you the only one that can post quotes? You even have some one come help you to rebuke people as you said in an earlier post. You are you to rebuke people? |
I'm not posting full page quotes directly from a website. You are. There are posts of yours and rms that are nothing but quotes from Watchtower material. Please use your own words, and not the words of someone who wants to control you.
I said that I had someone come here to help me rebuke someone????
Do I not have the right to tell a man that they are wrong in their ways or that they are believing in things that are totally false? Has it come to the point where tolerance means keeping your mouth shut if it means offending someone even though they are wrong?
I don't think I'm rebuking people. I'm just shedding light on the truth.
Again, BigMitch, Krusty, rms, would any one of you like to explain the many false prophecies of the return of Christ, the lack of scholarship involved in translating the NWT, the continued recurrence of the Angel of the Lord in the Bible, or the fact that God has not performed the greatest act of love in your theology?
Why is it again that you guys are telling other people they are wrong and doing nothing put posting from the Watchtower? BigMitch, going back, I see that AkumaPrime corrected you on the fact that Jehovah is a corruption of YHWH. You outright denied it, but provided no evidence that your point of view was true. I also later mentioned this same occurance, but you denied it again, and said your side was true - without source.
Again, when discussing the translations, I was told simply that modern Christian translation got it wrong, despite the fact that I provided evidence of the scholarship of these translations and the lack of it for the NWT.
Would you like to continue telling me I'm wrong with no evidence at all?
This is what I'm talking about. You have no evidence of your own, but because the Watchtower says so, you believe it. Please use your own brain, your own heart, God gave it to you for a reason.
Surely God isn't going to be upset with you if you question him???
Is he really that weak that Satan will take you over and make you apostate if you simply ask God, what if????
I'm not asking you to convert to Satanism or anything. I just want you to observe what I've set down. Observe what others have set down. Ask questions about the Watchtower. It can't do any harm. If it really is an organization after the truth, surely they won't mind you asking questions and attempting to discover it.
Remember, YHWH said, "You will seek after me and find me when you seek after me with your whole heart".
Try and find God....whoever he may be - if he's a man on the moon for goodness sake. If the God of the universe who made everything is real, surely he doesn't mind you asking questions about him and honestly trying to find him - and not something that some religious organization has put down over the years.....
God bless you man, and may you seek after him...
In the love of Christ, jesusphreak...
Post by: rms2001 on August 16, 2004, 02:16:00 PM
You seem to have more time on your hands, why dont you go out and talk you people who are willing to listen to you crap. I have better things to do with my time than to sit here and fight with you over stuff I proved you wrong on last week.
Mean while, I have business to take care of in NYC so I will be back in a three weeks, and I hope you open your eyes between now and than. Your so narrow minding it isnt funny. As of now, Im done with this thread post.
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 16, 2004, 03:38:00 PM
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 17, 2004, 01:00:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Mean while, I have business to take care of in NYC so I will be back in a three weeks, and I hope you open your eyes between now and than. Your so narrow minding it isnt funny. As of now, Im done with this thread post. |
3 weeks of no arguing? What? You are the only opinionated person here! [sarcasm]
But yeah, you're right, 3 weeks of silent treatment will make us change our minds. I mean, it's not like you could just go to an internet cafe, to check your e-mails and see how the discussion is going. You wouldn't have to be gone for 3 weeks, it'd be like you were still here, calling us tards and cursing us non-beleivers out. I suppose you will testify to every person you meet in NYC huh? after all , you said it yourself you are the only relgious group which preaches the gospel to all living things
seriously rms, I pray your trip will be more of an eye-opener for you, ...rather than for everyone else who does not feel the way you do.
I would be the first to welcome you back, if you do decide to. Gdod luck on the trip
Post by: rms2001 on August 19, 2004, 03:34:00 AM
I have to make a trip to Oregon to take care of family biz, fly to Atlanta for other family biz, and in the balance of all of this a 23million dollar business decision that will affect mine and other peoples life for ever. Im 19 years old, I bit off more than I can chew here and I just flipped.
Went to Lake Powell to get away and comprehend all of this and not have to worry about a single thing, other than hitting a rock with the boat. If you get the chance to go there, do it, but go after they fill the lake back up. Any way, hopefully you will accent my request for forgiveness and we can go back to the usual business.
Have a good evening / afternoon / morning or what ever it is where you are. I dont think I will jump back in here and if I do I don't think it will be very much.
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 19, 2004, 08:18:00 PM
You know, this topic has been informing, revealing, and always eventful
In the end, I come to realize the differences that stand between us all, yet more importantly, the things which we have in common--spiritual needs and convictions. I would like to thank all those who did post. Your openness and beleifs have given you a face to the name.
I can't think of anything else to say!
Final thoughts, anyone?
Post by: thomes08 on August 20, 2004, 09:46:00 AM
thomes08
Post by: BigMitch on August 22, 2004, 10:53:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| It's alright man. I understand sometimes life just really pisses you off... Good luck with this, and God bless. Just honestly seek God, and he will bless you for that. I'm just asking you not to restrain your thought to a single translation or a single organization. They've got things different than everyone else. THere's a reason for that, and it doesn't hurt to ask questions. Surely if they are after the truth, they won't mind you seeking whatever it is? Thanks for your debate, thanks for your thoughts, and thanks for bearing with you. I really hope you get everything solved. I'll be praying for you. May God bless you and lead you... With Christ's love, jesusphreak.... |
I agree with you!
But remember that includes you I have one more thought for you. Ok? not an argument.
Its true the people that translated the NWT were a small group of men that had only and elementry knowlage of the languges. But its is true that God has protected his word down through the years. many had tried to distroy it. SO do you think that God being all powerful could send his Holy Spirit on those men and have them translate His word into an understandable wording for todays languges? No doubt at that english and many other languges have "evovolved" (or dumbed up) down to our day. So unless translators ( in general) went back to the oldest manuscripts than they could be translation from a... trying to think of a word... (corupted?) translation. Now the people that translated the NWT did go back to the oldest manuscripts avalible. And since its orginal translating scolars have check its authentisity and agree mostly that it is the most literal translationg avalible now. And if you are truly INTERESTED and don't want to start an agument. (respectfully) I can post quotes from some bible scholers.
And on that note Good night and ^ same back to you guys