Post by: 67thRaptorBull on July 14, 2004, 09:09:00 PM
| QUOTE (Asmodeus @ Jul 14 2004, 11:51 PM) |
| I can not believe what I just read. Why are you in the business if you are NOT making money. REALLY sad! They (and Sony) are just using their profits in other industries (Software and Hardware respectively) and trying to muscle into a business they know nothing about. I have bashed MS in the past (I think it stinks that they do not have a REAL 1st part developement house....they went and bought what they have) but I believed that they made some inroads by now. How does it feel to be a shareholder of MS stocks and watch them throw money out the window? I keep hearing this "we are in it for the long term"....but when is it over? When Nintendo and Sony don't have enough money to compete with their selling the XBox at a loss? Seems REALLY sad that they are allowed to throw that kind of money out the window (almost a pun). I am floored....I cannot believe they STILL have not started making money. That is just DUMB! Here is a quote from Steve Ballmer: I think the work that Bill (Gates) and I have been doing, really together, is to make sure we are investing in new areas. Look at what we have done with Xbox. We may still be losing money, but we have gone from nowhere to a significant player with a whole different approach. We've generated something brand new. I bet we can take Sony next generation. I am betting we can take Sony in the next generation. Since you mention Xbox, there was a recent poll of top most admired brands and MS wasn't in the top 10 this time. How important is that in terms of the overall consumer business? Brand is important. Brand is always important in the consumer business, and I think we have an excellent brand. The last several years we've done very well. We did very well this year. What causes people to go up a point or down a point? I think frankly until we whip this security thing, it doesn't surprise me that we might have dropped a little bit. You can take a look at the whole article here. Try not to let this turn into a fanboy section. I am sure some of you are thinking that that is what I am doing....it is not. I just do not think there is a good reason to be doing something (especially for this long) and LOSING MONEY! How long before you would get fired if your section of a company kept posting losses? Seems totally unreal to me.  |
there not making money, because it costs way to fucking much to make an xobx
at 300 dollars they were making a little money, but now its down to 140 (or 150, i forget) so there just going to lose more (unless purchases sky rocket)
Post by: bluedeath on July 15, 2004, 08:27:00 AM
Post by: melon on July 15, 2004, 09:59:00 AM
Post by: bluedeath on July 15, 2004, 10:58:00 AM
| QUOTE (beaumac @ Jul 15 2004, 07:38 PM) |
| they arent making now but the point of getting into video games is not about making profit NOW. The video game industry has experience rapid and continuous growth every year from the debut of NES. They know that the next generation of consoles are likely going to be the center of the living room in most american households. In 5-10 years everything will run off of your videogame console/media pc in your living room so the market will be many times larger than it is now. M$ is making its place now so that when there is a console in everyone's living room, its probably and xbox2 or 3... Make sense now? |
I agree but I think that They already have it. It's called Windows Media Center (hmmmm.... sound familiar). I think this product is going to explode.
Post by: Asmodeus on July 15, 2004, 01:08:00 PM
Back to the point. I don't care if you are making 140 Zillion dollars at something else....why give money away? That is stupid. If you think that Sony and MS are going to be making money in the next generation you have not been reading the same leaked specs I have been reading. 3 IBM CPUs.....big bucks boys! There will not be any money made in the next console war either. So back to my point.....why bother? They have not brought me this incredible experience they keep refering to. The closest they come is BUYING Bungie (forcing them to release the *&^$ed up Halo for PC and Mac....because they are to busy supporting the owners XBox with Halo 2). All buying Bungie, Oddworld, and Rare did was limit who they could develope for. A lot of money to toss around for a feather in your cap. If you are not in the business to make money....you are in it to kill someone elses chances of making any. Sounds like MS moved from software (they killed Netscape....it used to cost money untill MS gave Internet Explorer away) to hardware. So the PLAN is to lose money untill Sony and Nintendo run out of it.....THAT WILL BE GOOD FOR GAMERS!!!! Gimme a break. IF MS had a first-party developement house I would shut up....but they bring NOTHING to the table. All they do is determine who sits at the table....and who sits in the good seats. SAD!!!!
Post by: beaumac on July 15, 2004, 01:14:00 PM
| QUOTE (Asmodeus @ Jul 15 2004, 04:08 PM) |
| Back to the point. I don't care if you are making 140 Zillion dollars at something else....why give money away? That is stupid. If you think that Sony and MS are going to be making money in the next generation you have not been reading the same leaked specs I have been reading. 3 IBM CPUs.....big bucks boys! There will not be any money made in the next console war either. So back to my point.....why bother? They have not brought me this incredible experience they keep refering to. The closest they come is BUYING Bungie (forcing them to release the *&^$ed up Halo for PC and Mac....because they are to busy supporting the owners XBox with Halo 2). All buying Bungie, Oddworld, and Rare did was limit who they could develope for. A lot of money to toss around for a feather in your cap. If you are not in the business to make money....you are in it to kill someone elses chances of making any. Sounds like MS moved from software (they killed Netscape....it used to cost money untill MS gave Internet Explorer away) to hardware. So the PLAN is to lose money untill Sony and Nintendo run out of it.....THAT WILL BE GOOD FOR GAMERS!!!! Gimme a break. IF MS had a first-party developement house I would shut up....but they bring NOTHING to the table. All they do is determine who sits at the table....and who sits in the good seats. SAD!!!! |
I dont see why having a first party development house is so important. Can you explain that aspect of it? Youre right in thinking that they dont want to deliver this awesome experience for gamers. They dont give a shit about what gamers really want, they just want to do what they can to make the most MONEY. But gamers will benefit from that, as evidence by the xbox' clear superiority over the PS2. Monopoly$oft doesnt care about anything but profits, sorry. If you think sony or nintendo are any different though you are SORELY mistaken.
Post by: Asmodeus on July 15, 2004, 01:50:00 PM
I guess it comes to this. What if they competed with whatever company YOU worked for and practiced this unethically? Where will they stop? And isn't this illegal?
Ah well....I am done.
Post by: beaumac on July 15, 2004, 02:35:00 PM
Ever shop at walmart? they're even more guilty of the subversive tactics
Post by: The unProfessional on July 15, 2004, 02:46:00 PM
MS has been shady in the past, but there's nothing unethical about the Xbox. What's wrong with making an investment for the future? That's how business works. It's a loss now, but the market share is priceless. They gained the market share they have by releasing kickass hardware cheaper than competitors, at a huge loss. In next gen consoles, they'll carry this market share over to actual profits and gains. Great business strategy... and you've gotta have billions to do it. Gotta take risks.
If you ask me, this is one of the most ethical strategies MS could use, since it doesn't involve any anti-trust issues whatsoever... at least not YET.
Post by: nemt on July 15, 2004, 02:50:00 PM
Post by: The unProfessional on July 15, 2004, 02:51:00 PM
Post by: Behemoth69 on July 15, 2004, 10:25:00 PM
| QUOTE (nemt @ Jul 15 2004, 11:50 PM) |
| They spend too much on the wrong types of ads, this is their sole problem. |
I have to agree. I dont think i've ever seen an Xbox tv ad that motivated me to purchese one.
Post by: dazdastardly on July 16, 2004, 07:34:00 AM
| QUOTE (Behemoth69 @ Jul 16 2004, 07:25 AM) |
| I have to agree. I dont think i've ever seen an Xbox tv ad that motivated me to purchese one. |
In the beginning (in the UK anyway). MS broadcasted some absolutely awesome adverts for the xbox, a good number were pulled after complaints though. So i think theyve desensitised themselves a bit... Which is a shame.
I remember one where this baby was born, it popped out like the scene from big fish and flew over miles and miles out the window, growing older and older ... finally it landed in a grave with the caption 'lifes short... play more' ...
Tis a shame because Sony have gotten away with more controvercy. MS are just targetted shamelessly... I mean being sued millions for bundling Internet Explorer and Media Player is the low of the low.
Back on Topic i think MS are seeking revenues from Live and Game/Peripheral purchases, but i dont think there gonna get too worried this time around nor the next time.
Post by: Asmodeus on July 16, 2004, 08:08:00 AM
| QUOTE (001438 @ Jul 16 2004, 11:08 AM) |
| I honestly don't see how they are loosing money. I mean really think about it. What do you think it honestly cost MS to make a single Xbox? $20-25, and that is probably pushing it. A $125 profit per Xbox isn't to bad. Just because it costs us Big bucks to purchase a 3Gb processor doesn't mean that it costs MS that much. Bill Gates has his sweat shops going with young children who will work for pennies a day. I'll believe they are loosing money when I see the proof in writing. |
I said I would stay out of this thread.....but you make me laugh. You think MS builds, packages, and ships an XBox for 20 to 25 bucks? LOL! PLEASE! They spend half of that on the controller! You ask for PROOF in writing (I am NOT going to mail you anything)....but take a look at the link I included in my original post. That comes from the horse's (arse...errrr) mouth. Also....read some of this quote:
"The Xbox 1 has underperformed in terms of projected sales. Forced to follow the price reductions of the Sony's and Nintendo's video game consoles, the Xbox price drop to $179 means that MS is making at least $100 loss on each console sold. The plan is to subsidise this with increased software sales, but this calculation may only provide positive resuls in years to come, and perhaps only with Xbox 2. Not unlike Sony's drive to develop a "home station" that would function as the center of a home entertainment system, MS plans to make the Xbox 2 the machine that will take over our living rooms, providing not only video game entertainment, but also online functions, and direct-to-disk digital TV recording. MS has deep pockets and may venture on undeterred of the moderate success of Xbox 1, but it may take Xbox 2 or even Xbox 3 or 4 before MS's plan for global domination of our living rooms becomes reality."
I found that HERE!
The REAL news about MS is that their next console (provided the rumors are true)....is really a Mac (or at least more like a mac than a PC). Kinda odd that they don't have any faith in Intel, AMD, OR themselves! I am hoping that this is good for the mac community (should create a few more programmers with PPC coding experience). You would think that MS would prefer to use there own OS to develop (I am digging that the Mac G5 is the development box for the XBox 2!). Isn't that a selling point to developer's right now? Being able to EASILY port PC code to the XBox? I suspect that MS is leaning towards a closed box NON-Intel/AMD system for Windows (kinda like Apple). Or else NONE of this makes any sense. I know....I know......off-topic.
Post by: beaumac on July 16, 2004, 08:22:00 AM
also, a lot of the loses that monopo$oft is taking is from the r&d and marketing from launching a new console. it will cost (comparatively) a lot less to bring the next xbox since people are already aware of it and the press coverage will be waaaaaaaaaaaaay greater
Post by: Asmodeus on July 16, 2004, 01:37:00 PM
Post by: 67thRaptorBull on July 16, 2004, 01:42:00 PM
| QUOTE (001438 @ Jul 16 2004, 10:08 AM) |
| I honestly don't see how they are loosing money. I mean really think about it. What do you think it honestly cost MS to make a single Xbox? $20-25, and that is probably pushing it. A $125 profit per Xbox isn't to bad. Just because it costs us Big bucks to purchase a 3Gb processor doesn't mean that it costs MS that much. Bill Gates has his sweat shops going with young children who will work for pennies a day. I'll believe they are loosing money when I see the proof in writing. |
yea, but sorry, your crazy
even with the price originally at $300, they were barley staying above the water, so you think in the last 2 years they made a magical all in one machine that just craps out xboxs for 30 bucks?
Post by: The unProfessional on July 16, 2004, 01:43:00 PM
| QUOTE |
What do you think it honestly cost MS to make a single Xbox? $20-25, and that is probably pushing it. A $125 profit per Xbox isn't to bad. |
The Xbox is constructed of standard PC components used all over the world. If MS could produce an Xbox for $25, so could all the Chinese companies producing low-cost PC components, and you'd be buying your computer for $30.
Post by: Dark_Link2135 on July 19, 2004, 07:45:00 PM
if you have an xbox, you need games for it.
a game costs less then a buck to manufacture. maybe a little more, but not much. at $20-$50 each, they are making a crapload of money. well more then enough to offset the loss of money by the xbox, even after taking money out of sales to pay the team that made the game.
im surprised no one has said this.
well, i only read the first page, so i apologize if someone already has.
they have tons of other products anyway that they make a buttload of money off of.
so they are not losing money on anything, net, even when you restrict it to xbox sales (including console, game, controllers, memory cards, etc.)
Post by: gcskate27 on July 19, 2004, 07:52:00 PM
| QUOTE (Dark_Link2135 @ Jul 19 2004, 07:48 PM) |
| here it is, plain and simple: if you have an xbox, you need games for it. a game costs less then a buck to manufacture. maybe a little more, but not much. at $20-$50 each, they are making a crapload of money. well more then enough to offset the loss of money by the xbox, even after taking money out of sales to pay the team that made the game. im surprised no one has said this. well, i only read the first page, so i apologize if someone already has. they have tons of other products anyway that they make a buttload of money off of. so they are not losing money on anything, net, even when you restrict it to xbox sales (including console, game, controllers, memory cards, etc.) |
ahem, development takes money... while pressing the dvd is cheap, manufacturing a game is far from it...
Post by: Dark_Link2135 on July 19, 2004, 08:14:00 PM
| QUOTE (gcskate27 @ Jul 20 2004, 03:55 AM) |
| ahem, development takes money... while pressing the dvd is cheap, manufacturing a game is far from it... |
i beg your pardon, but you dont know what you are talking about.
i mentioned development in my post. read it.
and how are development and manufacturing related, other then development comes first, and is the real cost of the game, and then manufacturing comes next, which is CHEAP minus the machinery to manufacture it, and even then, they offset that cost with the number of games they sell. and since they can use the machinery to make ALL the games, they just have it print different data/labels, they are not losing money.
there money comes from the games. thats how they offset the cost.
Post by: gcskate27 on July 19, 2004, 09:34:00 PM
Post by: The unProfessional on July 19, 2004, 10:31:00 PM
| QUOTE |
... even after taking money out of sales to pay the team that made the game. |
I really don't see much mention of development in your post, btw. Looks like you're treating it as a pretty minor component. Paying 10 programmers, 10 artists, and several admin staff salaries for 3+ years in addition to marketing and the various other costs to run a business, games costs millions to make. Millions upon millions. And they aren't making tons of money. Dozens of game development firms have died over the last couple of years because the industry has become outrageously competitive and expensive. The game industry is becoming more and more like the movie industry, where producing a game requires massive investment... something the little guys just can't do very easily -- so they disappear. Just like with movies, the big firms are raking in coin while the small creators are diminishing.
They often never offset the cost. The average game development firm produces two failing titles to every succeeding one. The take major risks, and these risks may put them in the red for years on end, in hopes for a big break. Manufacturing isn't even an issue here. 99% of the wealth gets sunken into intellectual property, not discs or labels.
I don't have a bibliography quoting what I mentioned above, but if you get Game Developer magazine, and read it, you should already know.
Post by: Dark_Link2135 on July 21, 2004, 06:04:00 PM
what i meant to say, anyway, was that manufactuing and development were two different parts of game costs. skate was treating them like they were the same thing.
and you are entirely contradictory to yourself...you say i did not mention development but provide a quote proving that i did mention it?
"Paying 10 programmers, 10 artists, and several admin staff salaries"
okay, lets go to an extreme, and say each one of these guys is making the top salary of $150,000 a year, which they are obviously not. average starting salary for a programmer, i know is 30k. but lets say these guys have all been working for a long time, and are ALL getting $150,000 a year. this would never happen in real life, thats ridiculous, but here it is:
150k x 25 x 3 x = 45 million dollars
salary x people x years
(i used 5 as a figure for the admin staff. i think thats about average.)
now that is a big investment, but consider the fact that they are almost making a $49 profit on each game they sell. by the time economy of scale figures into it, they are making each game at barely over $1, rough estimate. if anyone can find the actual number, please tell me. anywho...xbox has a number of platinum titles, which means they sold over 1 million copies (correct me if im wrong on that). when they get platinum status, they drop to $20. but before, they were all selling at $50.
so profit of one game - 49x1,000,000 = 49 million
so platinum seller is enough to offset the cost of paying a development team, with each person getting $150k per year.
so they are more then offsetting the cost of development, as you can see.
hope that clears things up.
Post by: bluedeath on July 21, 2004, 06:58:00 PM
Post by: Yuyu on July 22, 2004, 01:56:00 AM
Post by: AnThRaX on July 22, 2004, 02:30:00 AM
Post by: ..[[ModBoxMaster]].. on July 22, 2004, 02:31:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| They maybe losing money on consoles, but there definatly not losing money on the games making there games is nothing to them. So most that 49.99 is profit. They also sell accesories and xbox live, all that is revenue and profit for them. |
yeah cause xbox live for 12 month is 70.00 bux
Post by: AnThRaX on July 22, 2004, 02:46:00 AM
| QUOTE (..[[ModBoxMaster]].. @ Jul 22 2004, 04:34 AM) |
| yeah cause xbox live for 12 month is 70.00 bux |
No it's 49.99 for a starter kit last time I checked. I was a beta tester 1st wave so I dunno how much it is now, but I paid 49.99 for a 12 month card, headset, Nfl Fever 2003 beta, Whacked, Moto GP, Revolt, Translucent Orange Memory card, and carrying case for 49.99
Post by: gcskate27 on July 22, 2004, 03:03:00 AM
Post by: ..[[ModBoxMaster]].. on July 22, 2004, 03:10:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| yeah cause xbox live for 12 month is 70.00 bux No it's 49.99 for a starter kit last time I checked. I was a beta tester 1st wave so I dunno how much it is now, but I paid 49.99 for a 12 month card, headset, Nfl Fever 2003 beta, Whacked, Moto GP, Revolt, Translucent Orange Memory card, and carrying case for 49.9 |
i guess it changed i bought mine in febuary for 70.00
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Title: MS Still Is Not Making Money With The Xbox?
Post by: AnThRaX on July 22, 2004, 03:11:00 AM
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Post by: AnThRaX on July 22, 2004, 03:11:00 AM
| QUOTE (gcskate27 @ Jul 22 2004, 05:06 AM) |
| and i cant believe anyone thinks you brag about anything... |
Im not bragging, I paid just as much as anyone else for a starter kit but I just made it in beta whoopde do, and I stated what I received not bragging at all.
Post by: AnThRaX on July 22, 2004, 03:12:00 AM
| QUOTE (..[[ModBoxMaster]].. @ Jul 22 2004, 05:13 AM) |
| i guess it changed i bought mine in febuary for 70.00 |
I dunno how it changed from when I bought it which was like in August of 2002, Official release of live was November 15, 2002 (1st year anniversery of xbox), and I dunno how it could of gone up, unless you bought the kit with Mechassualt, Crimson Skies, or another game.
Post by: ..[[ModBoxMaster]].. on July 22, 2004, 03:13:00 AM
hey check out my post....
Post by: AnThRaX on July 22, 2004, 03:15:00 AM
| QUOTE (..[[ModBoxMaster]].. @ Jul 22 2004, 05:16 AM) |
| that was it.. i got mech assault with it... it was worth it tho hey check out my post.... |
See with Mechassualt it's 69.99 because that I know of it's a platinum hit's as of right now. So just add it up, your not saving anything
. Same with Crimson it's not a platinum that I know of, but most stores have it for 19.99 or 24.99. But, I do know that retail kit's cost 49.99. Which include 12 month card, headset, motogp/whacked demo.
Post by: ..[[ModBoxMaster]].. on July 22, 2004, 03:18:00 AM
Post by: AnThRaX on July 22, 2004, 05:03:00 AM
| QUOTE (..[[ModBoxMaster]].. @ Jul 22 2004, 05:21 AM) |
| ahh.. ok well i know u cant play live w/o game cause they wil ban u with modbox |
No shit sherlock.
Post by: Dark_Link2135 on July 22, 2004, 10:53:00 AM
so considering the cost would be even lower, no matter how you look at it, their games are making them a profit. end of story.
well, okay, maybe not, but you see what i mean, at least some of it.
if im overlooking something, please mention it.
Post by: gcskate27 on July 22, 2004, 01:01:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| "Team sizes have grown, technology costs are up, salaries have risen since there aren't enough potential employees out there," said Alexander Seropian, founder and former chief executive of Bungie Studios. "Five years ago you could make a AAA game with eight people in a year," he said. "Now it takes three years and 50 people." Robbie Bach, MSs Chief Xbox Officer says that the cost of producing the top-tier AAA titlesalready $5 to $10 million eachis likely to grow significantly. In the game industrys current blockbuster-or-bust state of affairs, recovering those development costs is becoming increasingly difficult, as the ESA reports that of the scores of new games released last year, a mere nine console titles achieved sales above 1 million units. |
from you post it seems you think all the profit that they do make goes to ms... which isnt anywhere near true...
Post by: Dark_Link2135 on July 23, 2004, 08:01:00 PM
| QUOTE (gcskate27 @ Jul 22 2004, 09:04 PM) |
| from link from you post it seems you think all the profit that they do make goes to ms... which isnt anywhere near true... |
i did overlook that, and no, i do not think all the profit goes to MS.
but look at what i said: a platinum seller will make 49 million dollars.
your post helped prove my point, average cost is 5-10 million dollars, a buttload less then what i mentioned.
and yes, so he said only 9 made it - but all those have net profit of 39 million at the least. you can still sell less and make a lot of money.
MS doesn't get all that money, but neither does the entire development cost burden fall on them.