Post by: OrkanMan on June 24, 2004, 06:52:00 PM
By doing that, these women are saying that they would rather kill a fetus than use a condom, or a birth control pill, in the first place.
That's what scares me about it.
Your thoughts?
Post by: bluedeath on June 24, 2004, 09:18:00 PM
Post by: Banj on June 24, 2004, 10:44:00 PM
........I'm pro choice too by the way, it's not murder if you can't see their eyes.
Post by: melon on June 25, 2004, 01:05:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| What scares me about abortion is how hundreds of women will walk down the streets carrying signs promoting pro choice. By doing that, these women are saying that they would rather kill a fetus than use a condom, or a birth control pill, in the first place. That's what scares me about it. |
Do you honesly think a girl is going to lay there and think or well if i get pregnant i will just have another abortion?
An abortion is a horrible experiance both emotionally and physically. It is a last resort.
Condoms dont have close to a 100% success rate, the pill is 99% succesfull. Think about it, if your girlfriend is on the pill, say you have sex 5 times a wek every week of the year. Thats 260 shags. There are going to be 2 or 3 shags when the girl could get pregnant. Its a lot more for condoms, they can split, tear or just fail.
It is men who have this warped idea that girls are going to shag everyone they want and if they get pregnant head down to the local abortion clinic and get the fucker sucked out.
That is what scares me
Post by: therebelious1 on June 25, 2004, 01:38:00 AM
beforehand you can have one view, and feel like its a easy decision, but when you get thrown into the deep end, everything changes
Post by: therebelious1 on June 25, 2004, 01:41:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| say you have sex 5 times a wek every week of the year |
thats either not an option or very messy dude
take out 12 of those weeks and its closer to the mark
Post by: melon on June 25, 2004, 04:41:00 AM
okay take off a few days a month, but you cant go a full week without., and its not that messy really.
Post by: xbox beat box on June 25, 2004, 06:15:00 AM
Post by: Boba_Fett on June 25, 2004, 06:28:00 AM
| QUOTE (Arvarden @ Jun 25 2004, 01:55 PM) |
| What scares me is the lack of sex education, as pointed out all forms of contraception is not 100% full proof. Another scary thought is that religous nuts/pro nanny state wannabe's would prefer to take away peoples choice, hey we live in a democracy right? If you dont like it there are many other country's that will accomodate your beleifs. |
So someone is not accomodating my beliefs when they don't let me walk into someone's house and shoot them? Isn't that "taking my choice away"? The ultimate irony, being pro-choice and anti-capital punishment.... But don't worry, if I didn't believe in some sort of supreme diety (yeah, I'm a Christian), I wouldn't have a conscience ether
Post by: gcskate27 on June 25, 2004, 07:27:00 AM
| QUOTE (OrkanMan @ Jun 24 2004, 10:52 PM) |
| Your thoughts? |
you are a moron... why is it that the ultra-conservative, rightwing freaks never look at all sides of an issue? everything is always black and white with you and you are always right...
fuck it, have fun on your high-horse and ill get off my soapbox...
Post by: OrkanMan on June 25, 2004, 10:19:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| you are a moron... why is it that the ultra-conservative, rightwing freaks never look at all sides of an issue? |
What do you mean I haven't looked at both sides of the issue? In my post, I clearly said there were other means of birth control.
| QUOTE |
| everything is always black and white with you and you are always right... |
If I believed I was always right...why would I ask you for your thoughts on this issue in the first place?
Post by: nemt on June 25, 2004, 11:59:00 AM
Post by: gcskate27 on June 25, 2004, 12:45:00 PM
| QUOTE (OrkanMan @ Jun 25 2004, 02:19 PM) |
| What do you mean I haven't looked at both sides of the issue? In my post, I clearly said there were other means of birth control. |
| QUOTE |
| By doing that, these women are saying that they would rather kill a fetus than use a condom, or a birth control pill, in the first place. |
you stated that these women use abortion as birth control... that is not a statement from someone who looks at all sides...
| QUOTE |
| If I believed I was always right...why would I ask you for your thoughts on this issue in the first place? |
people like to argue...? one thing about it is that liberals, on a whole and in my opinion, look at the whole picture and argue points... conservatives generally just proclaim others as wrong and refuse to listen past that...
Post by: bluedeath on June 25, 2004, 12:49:00 PM
You are wrong and I refuse to hear anymore. Actually the only thing that I hear is blah blah blah I'm a dirty tramp.
Post by: gcskate27 on June 25, 2004, 01:13:00 PM
Post by: OrkanMan on June 25, 2004, 03:33:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| one thing about it is that liberals, on a whole and in my opinion, look at the whole picture and argue points... conservatives generally just proclaim others as wrong and refuse to listen past that... |
I asked for opinions on this subject. What does that mean? Simply put, it means I was wondering how people felt towards abortion. I have not once said that any of you are wrong.
Post by: OrkanMan on June 25, 2004, 03:49:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| That's true. You are wrong and I refuse to hear anymore. Actually the only thing that I hear is blah blah blah I'm a dirty tramp. |
It is in my opinion, as well as some other people I know, that liberals rant and rave to get their point across. If there were any more conservative Republicans on this message board I think they would agree with me.
With that said, I don't think many people are going to like this next statement I am about to make (which is fine with me, you have the right to feel that way).
Take a look at the people on this message board. It is the democrats and liberals that respond with "your a moron" and constantly want to criticize the conservative people who are being courteous. In fact, you haven't once seen me retaliate at all in this topic.
And here's another example I want to show you...
Church going people tend to have good morals, right? (I know not all of them do...but you'd be lying if you don't think church going people, on a whole, are good moral citizens.) A recent study showed that 2/3 of church going people vote Republican while 2/3 of non-church going people vote Democrat. This alone shows that Republicans have better morals.
So, you democrats can think anything you want. And as a nice, courteous Republican I'm not going to criticize you for how you believe. As you can see, I just wanted to know your opinions on abortion. But, you have proven that it will be democrats that want to rant and rave back at you. (And no, not every democrat is like that. And yes, there will be some Republicans are like that too but not every one.)
If you can't admit that, you're being bias towards your democratic party. And honest people on this message board will agree with me.
Post by: nemt on June 25, 2004, 04:41:00 PM
Post by: gcskate27 on June 25, 2004, 04:43:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| as a nice, courteous Republican I'm not going to criticize you for how you believe. |
wtf are you talking about? heres a quote of yours from another thread that you started...
| QUOTE |
| For you left wing democratic liberal baby killers..... www.bowlingfortruth.com |
i know most people wouldnt find being called baby-killers courteous... and "baby-killers" is an obvious negative term, which you lumped with liberal related terms, implying a negative view towards liberals... also not courteous...
| QUOTE |
| Church going people tend to have good morals, right? (I know not all of them do...but you'd be lying if you don't think church going people, on a whole, are good moral citizens.) |
church going people, in my experience, are the largest group of hippocrits and unaccepting people... most go to church to seem like "good christians" while they dont act like it the rest of the week...
| QUOTE |
| A recent study showed that 2/3 of church going people vote Republican while 2/3 of non-church going people vote Democrat. This alone shows that Republicans have better morals. |
this is some skewed logic on your part... even if church going people were good, moral christians, this is hardly proof the republicans have better morals... you dont need to go to church to have morals or be religious...
| QUOTE |
| you have proven that it will be democrats that want to rant and rave back at you. (And no, not every democrat is like that. And yes, there will be some Republicans are like that too but not every one.) |
you just contradicted yourself... 'the democrats will be the ones to rant and rave.. not all but some... and some republicans...'
so all you basically said was people of both parties rant and rave... good point...
Post by: OrkanMan on June 25, 2004, 04:57:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| For you left wing democratic liberal baby killers..... |
Well, if I was saying that in real life, face to face, it wouldn't sound as bad as it does when you type it out. It was feeling friendly when I said it.
Post by: The unProfessional on June 25, 2004, 04:58:00 PM
| QUOTE |
people like to argue...? one thing about it is that liberals, on a whole and in my opinion, look at the whole picture and argue points... conservatives generally just proclaim others as wrong and refuse to listen past that... |
Let me just say this. Both sides are equally guilty of fallacious arguments and negative terms... is that so hard to see? Take off the spin goggles... I've met people of all shapes and sizes who "generally just proclaim others as wrong and refuse to listen past that...".
I'll stick to the topic by saying I disagree with partial-birth abortions, or actually any abortions past the first trimester. unfortunately, people aren't responsible for their own actions in many cases. Just for the sake of responsibility, I think avoiding late abortion is a serious issue. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can admit that it's always better to preserve life than destroy it. So, if you have an enjoyable night of drunken sex, take the morning after pill. If you chicken out and wait too long, get an abortion as early as possible. The abortion process should shake your world enough to teach you a nice lesson.
Oh, and guys, never say "I hate wearing condoms because they ruin the feeling... the girl can take the pill". It makes you sound like a selfish bastard. Or... maybe you are. It's the responsibility of both parties... or all three, whatever.
I guess the biggest problem is that the ones who can't handle the responsibility are the ones who keep the babies.
Post by: melon on June 25, 2004, 05:04:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Guns don't kill people; abortion clinics kill people. |
| QUOTE |
| Church going people tend to have good morals, right? (I know not all of them do...but you'd be lying if you don't think church going people, on a whole, are good moral citizens.) A recent study showed that 2/3 of church going people vote Republican while 2/3 of non-church going people vote Democrat. This alone shows that Republicans have better morals. |
Firstly your republican friend nemt calls people a moran more than any other person on this forum.
Secondly take a look at the southern states of America. The sourthern states are seen as backward and very stupid, yet the southern states are the most religous. Using your logic this would make church goers more stupid than people who dont go to church. Thus Republicans are less inteligent than Democrats.
I dont belive what I just wrote is true, im just trying to show your logic makes as much sense as Jessica Simpson doing quantum physics.
Post by: OrkanMan on June 25, 2004, 05:22:00 PM
Post by: The unProfessional on June 25, 2004, 08:04:00 PM
Post by: Heet on June 27, 2004, 05:32:00 AM
*Im of course joking. Truth is you guys are some of the smartest people ive met. Even a few of you liberals.
Post by: melon on June 27, 2004, 06:50:00 AM
It doesnt work that way over here.
You could start a thread on what ice cream flavour is the nicest, choclate or vanilla and people woud still start.
Nemt would be like you liberal flag burning hippy, choclate is the nicest. Bush loves it and so should you!
Raptor would be like open your eyes stop sounding like a Bush ass licker, you know vanilla is the best!
personally I like vanila with choclate sauce.
Sorry back on track.
Ive seen peoples lives ruined because they had a baby at a young age and there parents were catholic and wouldnt let them have an abortion. My friend was 16 when he got his girlfriend pregnant and it ruined both there lives. He had to drop out of education and ended working at mcdonalds. They never got the chance to grow up themselves. It was his first girlfriend and it was an unfortunate accident.
I have seen how an unwanted baby can be treated, even as it gets older. My own auntie never wanted kids but got pregnant and she treated them like they were a hinderance.
Then I belive men should not tell a woman what to do with her body.
These are the reasons I belive abortion is right and they are not political.
It mat not be the same in the US but i have found the people who lean politically to the right in this country are from more affluant backgrounds who have led a more sheltered life. They usually havn't seen what the world is really like.
Sorry for such a fragmented post.
Post by: BCfosheezy on June 27, 2004, 08:23:00 AM
That's beside the point. I had a girlfriend for months and we were having sex all the time. Her period was late for about 3 weeks. In the mean time I'm flippin out about it. (she ended up not pregnant but her period was late because she had an eating disorder)I would never kill another person unless I absolutely had no choice so I thought why am I even considering taking this child's life? I told myself that it wasn't even a real person until whatever trimester but that's bullshit and we all know it because even if it's not technically alive yet... it had a chance to be and we took that chance. I had one of those moments of clarity that you get when things are too late to go back and change. It was that if I hadn't fucked this chick that I didn't wanna have a baby with, that I wouldn't even have to worry about it. No-brainer right.. well here I am a couple of years later and have had the same worry countless times since because when there's a quality piece of tail to tap... I'm probably gonna go ahead and lend her the hips... but it's stupid. It's like walking up to vitor belfort and saying FUCK YOU VITOR... and then when there's that chance that he's gonna fuck your face up real good you try to talk your way out of it or pay your way out of it or try to get someone to kill him... why did u do the shit in the first place? maybe a bad analogy but it can sort of illustrate my point that we are all missing the point about abortion in that we should really never let it come to that... and if we do we're fuckin up.
Abortion IS black and white... sure I was gonna do it but it's wrong. I don't look down on someone for opting to have an abortion but it is clearly not a morally sound option. You did the deed and you're trying to get out of the consequences. We all do it and I feel for the guys that are faced with the decision. (I myself am one constantly.) Sorry if this post makes no sense but this topic hits real close to home because of a few experiences I've had so I get a little emotional and ramble.
Post by: gcskate27 on June 27, 2004, 09:11:00 AM
| QUOTE (melon @ Jun 27 2004, 10:50 AM) |
| It mat not be the same in the US but i have found the people who lean politically to the right in this country are from more affluant backgrounds who have led a more sheltered life. They usually havn't seen what the world is really like. |
its the same way here...
Post by: melon on June 27, 2004, 11:39:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| its the same way here... wink.gif |
That could be another thread.
Post by: Maximumbeing on June 27, 2004, 12:35:00 PM
Post by: gronne on June 27, 2004, 01:14:00 PM
, yet true)Or you can do as many orthodox christian, and have sex after you've got married. I wouldn't recommend it, but if you don't want to be punished by your Gods for doing abortions, go ahead.
Post by: rms2001 on June 27, 2004, 11:16:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| 22 And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23 But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow. |
That it self says its wrong so there for it is. You want to have sex, take responsibly for your actions. If you don't want the responsibly, don't do it, easy as that.
Post by: melon on June 27, 2004, 11:29:00 PM
When she spoke, it was about not being able to go to heaven if she wore a condom and not commiting a mortal sin.
When the tv makers spoke to a cardinal about this he said it was better for her to die a martyrs death than to of wore a condom.
I know its a little bit off topic but thats fucked up!
Post by: rms2001 on June 27, 2004, 11:34:00 PM
Post by: gcskate27 on June 27, 2004, 11:35:00 PM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Jun 28 2004, 03:16 AM) |
| That it self says its wrong so there for it is. |
sorry, but you cant use the bible to prove anything... except gravity...
though i do agree about responsability... but not about abortion being wrong in all cases...
Post by: rms2001 on June 27, 2004, 11:43:00 PM
| QUOTE (gcskate27 @ Jun 28 2004, 01:35 AM) |
| sorry, but you cant use the bible to prove anything... except gravity... |
Also says the earth was round LONG before people of the modern day believed it was.
You can chose not to believe in the Bible, and thats fine. To each, his own. But really, next time your out side walking in the woods take a look around your self and ask your self Was this all just an accident?
Post by: melon on June 27, 2004, 11:43:00 PM
| QUOTE (gcskate27 @ Jun 28 2004, 08:35 AM) |
| sorry, but you cant use the bible to prove anything... except gravity... |
Post by: gronne on June 28, 2004, 01:33:00 AM
Anyway, this is too off-topic. Don't let this be about the process of the evolution or religious believes.
Post by: cainedna on June 28, 2004, 06:28:00 AM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Jun 28 2004, 08:16 AM) |
| Exodus 21:22-25 That it self says its wrong so there for it is. You want to have sex, take responsibly for your actions. If you don't want the responsibly, don't do it, easy as that. |
Do you also keep the sabbath, or do you operate machinery on Saturdays? Keep kosher? Follow all of the 10 commandments?
If you're going to follow the old testament, you shouldn't pick and choose which parts you follow.
Post by: therebelious1 on June 28, 2004, 06:32:00 AM
| QUOTE (cainedna @ Jun 28 2004, 03:28 PM) |
| If you're going to follow the old testament, you shouldn't pick and choose which parts you follow. |
thats what religion has come to now
hypocrites and liars- nothing more
Post by: rms2001 on June 28, 2004, 09:24:00 AM
| QUOTE (cainedna @ Jun 28 2004, 08:28 AM) |
| Do you also keep the sabbath, or do you operate machinery on Saturdays? Keep kosher? Follow all of the 10 commandments? If you're going to follow the old testament, you shouldn't pick and choose which parts you follow. |
There is nothing wrong with the old testament. Exodus 21 is just what came to mind. The old testament is still law, but we are not as closely bound to it as the early followers. But like most laws today, some are very veg and you need to use common since as to what you can and cant do with in that law.
2 Timothy 3:16
| QUOTE |
| 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness |
So just b/c the old testament may be old, dose not mean you don't have to follow it. Such as Exodus 20:13-16
| QUOTE |
13 You must not murder. 14 You must not commit adultery. 15 You must not steal. 16 You must not testify falsely as a witness against your fellowman. |
Those are some one the bases for our laws today. So its not okay to follow them just b/c they are in the old testament? As I said, people today are not as bound to it as people of before. Ill get a little more into detail on this maybe a little later.
Post by: gcskate27 on June 28, 2004, 09:57:00 AM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Jun 28 2004, 01:24 PM) |
| Those are some one the bases for our laws today. |
so youre saying that these things were only considered wrong after it was stated in the scripture? somehow i doubt it, these all fall under basic the right and wrong instincts that all humans (give or take a few psychopaths) have...
| QUOTE |
| So its not okay to follow them just b/c they are in the old testament? |
and quit trying to twist shit, noone said anything like this...
Post by: gcskate27 on June 28, 2004, 10:01:00 AM
Post by: rms2001 on June 28, 2004, 10:50:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| so youre saying that these things were only considered wrong after it was stated in the scripture? |
Never said that. They have always been wrong. Ever since the first human pair committed sin and gave up paradise man kind has to be thought what is right and wrong. Adam and Eve were created perfect and knew all of Gods laws.
After they eat from the -tree of knowledge of good and bad- they lost perfection and passed that along to their offspring. Eve gave birth to Cain and Abel. At this time Adam and Eve were the closest thing to perfection, but as each generation came the perfection was less and less.
Humans became stupider as time went on. The Bible was written for our benefit and to teach us. As Im sure you know as time gos on, people tend to forget and distort things. When the laws were written into the Bible it was done so to keep us on a straight path, or at lest as straight as possible.
Post by: nemt on June 28, 2004, 11:53:00 AM
Post by: rms2001 on June 28, 2004, 06:05:00 PM
| QUOTE (nemt @ Jun 28 2004, 01:53 PM) |
| You guys know the ten commandments in the bible aren't "the ten commandments" as we know them today, right? |
They are the same. But there were really alot more than 10.
Post by: rms2001 on June 28, 2004, 07:44:00 PM
Post by: miazmaticdotcom on July 02, 2004, 02:36:00 AM
Western families have two or at the most three kids, but families in the East (Asia, India) have more kids. This used to naturally balance out because infant mortality rates were high, but with new meds and crap 100% of an Indian family's 14 children are surviving.
The woman very much has a right to choose. If a little fucker starts growing in her belly, that is her jurisdiction and if she wants him out, her choice. It's like saying I shouldn't kill tapeworms that infest my intestines because they have rights too.
Post by: bluedeath on July 02, 2004, 07:14:00 AM
| QUOTE (miazmaticdotcom @ Jul 2 2004, 11:36 AM) |
| There are enough people in the world already, abortions only help to prevent overpopulation. Western families have two or at the most three kids, but families in the East (Asia, India) have more kids. This used to naturally balance out because infant mortality rates were high, but with new meds and crap 100% of an Indian family's 14 children are surviving. The woman very much has a right to choose. If a little fucker starts growing in her belly, that is her jurisdiction and if she wants him out, her choice. It's like saying I shouldn't kill tapeworms that infest my intestines because they have rights too. |
"I find that in the dispute over "when life begins", people are rarely asking: at what point does an individual physical being come into existence? Rather, the question is usually: At what point does that being become a person which must be accorded rights? The first question can be answered scientifically, and intellectual honesty demands that we incorporate those findings into our positions. The second, however, cannot. Personhood is a philosophical issue, but it need not be a religious one. After all, we can't scientifically prove that anyone is a person, but we secular humanists do manage to advocate for the human rights of women, minorities, and the severely disabled -- all of whom have been considered non-persons at various times in history. If prenatal personhood depended upon the notion of ensoulment at conception or a similar supernatural phenomenon, then it could properly be called a purely religious position. However, this is not the case."
Post by: nemt on July 02, 2004, 12:56:00 PM
| QUOTE (rms2001 @ Jun 28 2004, 11:05 PM) |
| They are the same. But there were really alot more than 10. |
I know, I just like the controversy.
...and there were fifteen, actually, not "alot" more.
Post by: mike96sc2 on July 02, 2004, 06:05:00 PM
Post by: BenJeremy on July 02, 2004, 06:27:00 PM
There are many who polarize on this subject, unable to put this into perspective. While I was, at one time, against it, I've decided to let my pragmatic viewpoint take control and logic reign.... but a few points:
1. A fetus is **NOT** just a woman's body part. It's a genetically differentiated being, created by conception, involving TWO human beings.
2. Plenty of evidence indicates this being is a living, thinking, independent "thing" very early on in development. It feels pain, even dreams (though of what, I can't imagine).
3. Abortion is murder. Accept it. There's no point in denying it at all, except in a very LAME attempt to deny anti-abortionists their main argument.
Now, I'm pro-death penalty, and while I find abortion distasteful and would encourage pregnant women to seek alternatives to it, I support abortion - up to limits. I do feel it should be a choice of LAST RESORT, since, after all, you are KILLING AN UNBORN CHILD.
Life is hard. People have to make hard choices, and framed as I have, putting it into PROPER perspective, the "choice" of abortion suddenly entails a lot more moral weight, as it should.
Before I go further, please let me make this clear: People are killed every day, and not out of malicious evil intent, or even criminal negligence.... soldiers may kill an enemy combatant on the battle field.... a cop may kill an armed robber.... a convicted murderer may be executed for their crimes. Each of these involves a moral decision on the part of the "killer", and we, as a society (though not always as individuals) concur with the "justness" of those decisions.
Such as it is, it's much harder for me to argue the moral "justness" of killing an unborn child, but it teeters on the edge, balanced against the realities of the world that child may be born into. In that light, one might struggle, but eventually come to grips with such a decision. "Society" may decide that decision lies with the parents of that child (I said "parents" - not mother).
Now... some things that REALLY piss me off:
1. If you are anti-abortion and anti-death penalty, fine - I respect that. If you are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty, fine - If you are pro-abortion and pro-death penalty, fine, but logic dictates that only an insane nutjob could be pro-abortion and anti-death penalty!! That sort of logic places the worth of an unborn child, and all the potential is has, beneath that of a convicted criminal who has proven their unworthiness to breath the same air as you or me.
2. Stop playing semantical games. You are either pro-abortion or anti-abortion. Stop refering to it as "choice" (Dammit, "choice" is what I exercise when I decide what treat I want at the local dairyland!!) or "life" (Pro-Life describes a lot more than anti-abortion).
3. Stop playing the idiotic "it's not life until it's born" game. Bullshit. That isn't Momma's body suddenly growing a new organ. It's Momma's body designed to HOST another living creature while it develops into a creature capable of surviving on its own. By that logic, the CAR can decide it doesn't lilke it's passengers and throw them out, or maybe your house can spew you outside naked when it's ten below zero outside.
4. Stem Cell research... many people have laid down their lives in support of medical research, so why the resistance... but let's put this issue in perspective, please; the current "ban" in the US doesn't affect many programs, since it ONLY applies to government funded projects, and it's not a "ban" specifically, as it allows researchers to use an existing stock of cloned stem cells. This subject has been blown out of proportions by those who would use it to sway the opinions of the weak minded.
Grow up and take responsibility for what abortion is, if you support it - it's legalized murder, under justifiable reasons, if society is willing to consider it that. IF society decides NOT to support it, then that's proper as well. Trying to circumvent soceity using an activist court, for example, is chicanery of the highest order - a few deciding what is best for the rest, regardless of whether they are right or wrong - and that's fascism.
Post by: BenJeremy on July 03, 2004, 06:54:00 AM
| QUOTE (Spency234 @ Jul 2 2004, 11:04 PM) |
| Good post, I only have one thing. Now, I am pro-abortion, in extreme circumstances. But why does that make me have to accept the death penalty? It's not the fact that I'm putting the life of a convicted murderer over an unborn childs', but the fact that a man/woman COULD be wrongly convicted and killed for a crime they did not commit. The Justice System isn't perfect, they will make mistakes, and that is a pretty costly one if you ask me. |
There's the bizarre skewing of perspective there.... you fret over the POSSIBILITY that a person could be wrongly convicted (yes, it does happen, but many "wrongly convicted" were no angels themselves, either) - the truth is the system needs reform, because in most cases, the "reasonable doubt" was most certainly there.
The problem isn't the punishment, but the system that dealt the sentence. I could go on more about that.... but suffice it to say I do believe there needs to be sufficient, but practical measures in place to insure those who face the death penalty belong there (and those responsible for shoddy investigation and railroading innocents get PUNISHED).
...but back to the issue... you desire to throw out the death penalty on the CHANCE the person isn't guilty, but you are willing to let our next Einstein or Bach or Martin Luther King **DIE** without ever knowing the truth? You think mistakes will be made in DP cases, but not in abortions? If you accept "Some" abortions, there will be far more of the type you don't like happening... just as some on death row might be innocent.
See, that's where you need to rethink your position. Either your logic for supporting Abortion is wrong (because it flies in the face of your reasoning for keeping murderes alive), or your position against the death penalty is too severe.
It's probably more than a simple exercise in logic, applied to an individual's moral beliefs. You are still weighing a murderer's life against a child's.
Post by: Mozart.mp3 on July 05, 2004, 08:02:00 AM
Post by: Mozart.mp3 on July 05, 2004, 08:22:00 AM
Post by: Mozart.mp3 on July 05, 2004, 08:26:00 AM