Post by: Xbox-Scene on January 30, 2006, 10:36:00 PM
Xbox DVD Firmware Hacked *Updated*-- Posted by XanTium on January 31 00:36 EST
From TheSpecialist on xboxhacker.net:
Quote
Yes! I've just played a backup DVD on a XBOX 1 without any modchip/softmod, just a hacked firmware :-) This completes our work on the XBOX 1. The drive I modded was a 8050L. The good news is that the firmware in this drive is very similar to the firmware in the GDR3120, used in the XBOX 360. I think it's time for me to buy one now :-)
Thanks to all the contributors in the firmware hacking thread!
This hacked firmware will fake the disc detection (will trick drive to detect disc as DVDXBOX media), the xbe must still be signed though (for DVDXBOX media), so this hack will not allow to run homebrew/linux stuff, atleast not directly (if there are possible font or other exploits in retail games, this could be used as alternative to gamesave exploits to install a dashboard exploit for example).
The finished hacked firmware (for the H-L 8050L drive) should be able to boot any MS-signed xbox executables (xbe) with DVDXBOX mediaflag and with regionflag matching your console's region (in case it's region locked - and no you can't change regionflag of the xbe as that would break the signature) from any recordable media.
The 8050L is the Hitachi-LG DVD drive found in newer Xboxes (see here).
*UPDATE* A new update from TheSpecialist and SiliconIce on xboxhacker.net:
Quote
TheSpecialist: I now completely understand how he[bunnie when he extracted the RC4] felt :-) It was also 4 AM for me yesterday, when I inserted the patched drive into my xbox and inserting a backup for the first time, to see if it worked. I too felt great euphoria when it did Smiley However, after the 'come down' you start to realise that your work could have major impact...
I like hacking. I always liked it. I like the process. Till now, nobody 'profited' from what I did. I'd like to keep it that way :-) People are, very kindly, already offering me hardware and even money to get a hack done for the 360. I really appreciate it, but I don't want to prosper financially in any way from my work.
I understand that releasing this hack would have major impact. Althought I serioulsy doubt that releasing a 'firmware *patcher* is illegal, I don't want to take my chances on it :-) I think anybody who wants to do something like that should ask himself if it's worth all the trouble he might get into. I feel it's not. That's why I'm not releasing anything. I hope everybody understands :-)"
SiliconIce: TheSpecialist has done some great work, and I understand and support his position. As always, we are working on a very slippery slope.
Download: n/a (not released)
News-Source: xboxhacker.net(1) and xboxhacker.net(2)
Post by: Palmtree on January 30, 2006, 10:44:00 PM
Post by: Heet on January 30, 2006, 10:47:00 PM
Post by: JustinT9669 on January 30, 2006, 10:47:00 PM
Post by: phrozenfeonix on January 30, 2006, 10:49:00 PM
what i'd like to know, is how do we go about reflashing out dvd drives now? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This post has been edited by phrozenfeonix: Jan 31 2006, 06:50 AM
Post by: zikronix on January 30, 2006, 10:49:00 PM
Post by: JonTheChron on January 30, 2006, 10:55:00 PM
Post by: semajturtle on January 30, 2006, 10:58:00 PM
QUOTE(zikronix @ Jan 30 2006, 09:56 PM) 
wow neato...but arent all xbox 1 disc xbe disc signed and when you brun them they dont work becuase they are not signed?
Yeah you can run backups which means the xbe's are still signed just that the disc itself is not signed. What the hack does is fake the xbox into thinking burnt discs are the same as factory pressed discs.
Post by: JonTheChron on January 30, 2006, 10:59:00 PM
Post by: psyko_chewbacca3 on January 30, 2006, 11:01:00 PM
Does this means that it will be possible to use backups on Xbox Live? if yes that sucks because I'm scared it will open way to a new way of cheating on xbox live by hacking game files on the dvd itself.
Post by: XanTium on January 30, 2006, 11:03:00 PM
QUOTE(zikronix @ Jan 31 2006, 06:56 AM)
wow neato...but arent all xbox 1 disc xbe disc signed and when you brun them they dont work becuase they are not signed?
The xbox xbe files contain in the header from which media it is allowed boot.
Games have a DVDXBOX mediaflag, meaning it'll only boot from DVDXBOX media.
If you burn a game, the xbe is still signed ... but as your media will be DVD-R +R or CD-R, so it will not boot.
If you change the mediaflag ... well then your signature fails.
What happens here is that the DVD drive will report the disc as DVDXBOX even if it's really one.
So Xbox thinks it's a DVDXBOX, nothing changed to xbe so signature matches, mediaflag check passes too as it says it can boot from DVDXBOX only and disc was reported by hacked firmware as DVDXBOX.
Post by: dom0012 on January 30, 2006, 11:05:00 PM
truly amasing if its true...
Post by: dg945 on January 30, 2006, 11:06:00 PM
~dg945~
Post by: Crackmonger on January 30, 2006, 11:10:00 PM
But anyway, it reamains to be seen if this is at all possible on the 360. We already know that DVD drives can't be swapped due to some type of signiture. It might be true that the same system also protects the firmware...
Post by: nwo504 on January 30, 2006, 11:11:00 PM
Post by: xboxhackern00b on January 30, 2006, 11:13:00 PM
Post by: mrjkwik on January 30, 2006, 11:15:00 PM
QUOTE
Does this means that it will be possible to use backups on Xbox Live? if yes that sucks because I'm scared it will open way to a new way of cheating on xbox live by hacking game files on the dvd itself.
interesting question.
though a very, very loaded one.
Post by: dom0012 on January 30, 2006, 11:17:00 PM
Post by: nwo504 on January 30, 2006, 11:20:00 PM
Post by: luther349 on January 30, 2006, 11:30:00 PM
and if the 360 is simler oh man it would be some bad news.
Post by: Pantera Opeth on January 30, 2006, 11:44:00 PM
Post by: BadNinja3 on January 30, 2006, 11:48:00 PM
Post by: gehx on January 30, 2006, 11:52:00 PM
QUOTE(t_mac_ca @ Jan 31 2006, 01:35 AM)
is this hack even public yet?
Great question.
Post by: pholly on January 30, 2006, 11:54:00 PM
Can't wait to try this out
Post by: dom0012 on January 30, 2006, 11:56:00 PM
Post by: krawhitham on January 31, 2006, 12:13:00 AM
Post by: Textbook on January 31, 2006, 12:19:00 AM
Post by: Alex548 on January 31, 2006, 12:23:00 AM
Post by: failurbydesign on January 31, 2006, 12:27:00 AM
Post by: scsscs on January 31, 2006, 12:28:00 AM
Post by: adeon on January 31, 2006, 12:29:00 AM
this is awsome... M$ is doomed... but this is good news for us... Live is going to have more members..
WOW... Ive been waitint for 360 news.. but this is just awsome!~~
See you all on LIVE
Post by: mrjkwik on January 31, 2006, 12:34:00 AM
Post by: Agrooreo on January 31, 2006, 12:37:00 AM
Post by: miggidy on January 31, 2006, 12:40:00 AM
QUOTE(psyko_chewbacca3 @ Jan 31 2006, 07:08 AM)
So if I understand well, with the firmware patched the Xbox doesn't do any difference between a backuped game and a retail one?
Does this means that it will be possible to use backups on Xbox Live? if yes that sucks because I'm scared it will open way to a new way of cheating on xbox live by hacking game files on the dvd itself.
If everything is as straight forward as was reported, I don't see why you couldn't play backups over Xbox Live. And don't worry about cheating. You would still have to run homebrew apps for that and it won't work using this method.
A little too late since its rumored M$ has already halted Xbox production so I don't see how this is going to hurt M$ as some of you cats are speculating.
Post by: Textbook on January 31, 2006, 12:47:00 AM
QUOTE(Agrooreo @ Jan 31 2006, 02:44 AM)
WOW. Looks like more teabaggin by cheaters on halo2 live......
Although that could unfortunately be true, it would not be as bad as the current cheaters. I would have to say that 90% of them only modded their Xbox for the sole purpose of modding Halo 2 and cheating on LIVE. In fact, they would have never modded their Xbox if the new maps weren't released. And I would also bet that around 80% of those cheaters used a softmod. The reason... It's free, It's easy to do, doesn't take a lot of brains. Just a memory card, a game, and hitting the A button 5 times. Not too difficult at all. I could teach somebody to do it in 5 minutes. Not sure how difficult the firmware hack would be, but I doubt many people would be willing to spend a lot of money on the DVD drive to cheat on LIVE. There are few people who have this drive. I don't know a person who does, I've never actually seen the drive in person. Most cheaters aren't going to buy a replacement DVD drive, open up their Xbox, install it, and then flash the firmware. So yeah, with this, somebody could definitely cheat on LIVE (even the old maps). But do you really think this will be more widespread then when right after the maps were released?
Post by: billy_dimashq on January 31, 2006, 01:03:00 AM
here's a question, though - if someone was to hack a game and then burn it, wouldn't that mess up the signature? if so, you really could only play proper 1:1 backups on live and hence would be no more likely to cheat than those owning an original copy of the game?
besides, what with the action replay on the xbox, that'd be the first port of call for cheaters worldwide and that's been sorted out somewhat.
i think this is good news purely from a scene progress point of view than as something i'm actually going to seriously look into or attempt myself, but we shall see how this affects live.
i'm with the rest of the posters on here in that it probably won't do much, if any, damage - halo 2 cheaters have already caused major damage and they were using softmods, etc, so i guess it'll be the same...
Post by: anoobie on January 31, 2006, 01:04:00 AM
I dont see why everyones so excited about this... why do u need to get into all this trouble of replacing a dvd drive to just play back ups. You all can do this with a softmodded xbox and plus u can upgrade ur harddrive and play homebrew games and xbox media center and so many other things...i dont see what the hypes all about... unless ur planning to go on live with backups then i can understand why ur all happy and stuff. otherwise this is nothing new until applied to the 360. 
Post by: urmydizire on January 31, 2006, 01:12:00 AM
Post by: cja100 on January 31, 2006, 01:17:00 AM
QUOTE(urmydizire @ Jan 31 2006, 08:19 AM)
yeah but if u had a hacked firmware wouldnt ms detect it and ban u from live like dont u all have brains again ull need original disc to play live and when u wanna play backups u just flash reflash flash reflash make sure the ethernet cable is hooked and unhooked when u know it should be
ms cant detect this hack! yet.
Post by: troyBORG on January 31, 2006, 01:25:00 AM
I wonder if you modded halo2 maps since it was a burned disc the xbe to launch it would be real. just the maps are different.
If so. Yeah I hope it would be hard to do that people won't want to try it.
Also yeah it be cool if they can mod the 360 for stuff. But i'd like it to stay non-modded cause of how much people love to cheat in games.
I just had to say this...
I wonder if you modded halo2 maps since it was a burned disc the xbe to launch it would be real. just the maps are different.
If so. Yeah I hope it would be hard to do that people won't want to try it.
Also yeah it be cool if they can mod the 360 for stuff. But i'd like it to stay non-modded cause of how much people love to cheat in games.
Post by: billy_dimashq on January 31, 2006, 01:29:00 AM
preflashed drives will probably start appearing on ebay in due course
Post by: .:Dino:. on January 31, 2006, 01:29:00 AM
Post by: Textbook on January 31, 2006, 01:34:00 AM
QUOTE
unless ur planning to go on live with backups then i can understand why ur all happy and stuff
...possibly...
It's what I want to know anyways.
The Specialist posted this in the official Xboxhacker.net thread, in response to kl0wn's question about LIVE:
QUOTE
I'm quite sure I could play on live with this mod. However, it will probably be just a matter of time before MS is going to find a way to block it. The hack I did is really basic and will need some modification to make it harder to detect. However, I think it's best to first get the same thing done on the 360
So....
Post by: eyric101 on January 31, 2006, 01:34:00 AM
The scene has always cried about cheaters getting on live so hacking into live was a no no and any possible way to do it was kept top secret. Thats not a problem with this as any actual change to the game signature itself can be detect by MS and cheating punks can be banned. What this does mean is that that fragile, easily scratchable disc that MS loves to resell us can be perm put up in a safe place.
MS has other avenues if they want to stop people from playing "pirated" games online. Send a single, server checked serial number, unique with each game. Just give us a way to protect our media investment. Especially since somtimes their own hardware scratches our discs. I don't understand why MS doesn't understand the scene's need to make backups of our 50 dollar games.
Post by: Reaper527 on January 31, 2006, 01:50:00 AM
QUOTE(eyric101 @ Jan 31 2006, 03:41 AM)
I don't understand why MS doesn't understand the scene's need to make backups of our 50 dollar games.
it was 50, 360 games are 60 :/ i think its great to be able to play backups on live, however at the cost of cheating becoming rampant, i don't think its worth it. Hopefully cheating is difficult enough that the average 13 year old kid isn't going game to game hacking the shit out of it over live
Post by: LordX on January 31, 2006, 02:49:00 AM
QUOTE(userann0n @ Jan 31 2006, 11:14 AM)
It is good to see the progression of xbox modifications, but I do like my hard drive, not to mention the expensive cost of DVD9 for those larger games.
My prediction is that they are going to start encoding every game with a unique encrypted ID# for live purposes. That way M$ can track down the sources of copied games and instantly ban those who have two same ID#'s on live at the same time. I am predicting this for the x360 since orginal xbox is on its way out.
But then again, what do i know.
yes true , also you can boot only RAW 1:1 backups ( without any fix ).
and M$ can make MD5 check on Firmware .
so best way to do this is make "edit" tool for firmware so everyone can edit his own Firmware and get deferent MD5.
1) dump own firmware by connecting DVDROM to PC
2) use tool to patch firmware
3) flash it back
also I guess it will boot only same region games , if you have USA/NTSC Console you can boot only USA/NTSC Games.
Post by: Textbook on January 31, 2006, 03:03:00 AM
Post by: MrSpumonte on January 31, 2006, 03:09:00 AM
QUOTE(eyric101 @ Jan 31 2006, 09:41 AM)
Especially since somtimes their own hardware scratches our discs. I don't understand why MS doesn't understand the scene's need to make backups of our 50 dollar games.
Well put! This is great news. Xbox modding was my way of securing my kids movies and games by storing them on the HDD. Kids can load what they want and never touch any DVDs. This could hurt LIVE with new ways of cheating not just at Halo 2, but at every single XBL game. I look forward to 360 mods, but am scare as then Gamer Scores will meaning nothing due to exploits I'm sure...
Post by: m.e on January 31, 2006, 03:15:00 AM
Post by: Master Reefed on January 31, 2006, 03:28:00 AM
Post by: BigNamek on January 31, 2006, 03:32:00 AM
Post by: RolfLobker on January 31, 2006, 03:49:00 AM
The firmware has not been released. This is just information. You can't actually do anything but read about it.C) This firmware hack only plays back correctly signed xbe's on improper signed discs. Nothing more.
D) This is good news for xbox360. Not for Xbox itself since we can very easily softmod those through font- and xbepatches.
E) Very nice and valuable information but again this is breaking news on the progress of being able to run backups on xbox360. Nothing more.
Post by: bourke on January 31, 2006, 04:00:00 AM
They're now worth slightly more than the US$20 I payed for them LOL!
Thanks Specialist, I knew my gamble on your skills would pay huge dividends - I owe you a beer or ten :-)
Cheers,
Bourkie
Post by: MacDennis on January 31, 2006, 05:01:00 AM
QUOTE(v1p3r @ Jan 31 2006, 12:12 PM)
I'm pretty sure online PS2 games have a unique identifier.
PS2 games use a system called DNAS. This site mentions some ID's: DNAS.
I assume ps2 games are pressed in (identical) batches. Or each manufacturing plant could be using an unique master of a particular game.
Post by: ashert on January 31, 2006, 05:25:00 AM
modchip free xbox's will start to have this patch applied, people will be happy to play their backups on xbox live...
this will never hold the same value as a modchip and big hard drive though, just the capacity to never swap disks is terrific - add to this xbmc.... lan connectivity etc - the modchip is what you want, but this will make it very easy to play backups and to play them on xb live - terrific :-)
now the entire 360 world is about to find out if ms suspected this 'hole' in their system, which is what is indicated by people saying that the dvd drives cant be swaped between 360's... just out of curiosity though, have people be trying swaping dvdType1 with dvdType1 or only dvdType1 with dvdType2 - just a thought...
great news and yes, excited :-)
and one final thought... in THEORY i suppose it would be possible to re-map the 'yes this is a valid disk' check to a HD block and have that on the HD or as part of a patch applied to games you keep on your hd - thus playing hd versions without having to get up and swap disks all the time... but again this area would get a lot more complicated because the kernal might not be live compatiable.... anyway - i am starting to talk about things i dont really know about, so ill end this entire brain-fart about now
cheers all
Post by: krawhitham on January 31, 2006, 06:21:00 AM
QUOTE(Master Reefed @ Jan 31 2006, 11:35 AM)
cd keys?
so you buy the game, get your cd key, mod the game so you can cheat, burn your modded hacked game, and play it online with a legit cd key
cd key will not stop cheaters
or keygen start coming out, which will block someone who really bought the game
Post by: rodpad on January 31, 2006, 06:54:00 AM
Stock drive with only yellow power cable plugged in with original disc inside
PC drive with molex power cable, the dvd ide cable, and a backup inside?
I've never tried it, but does the xbox detect it a non pressed disc?
Post by: nikiiv on January 31, 2006, 06:56:00 AM
Post by: rodpad on January 31, 2006, 07:03:00 AM
Only the XBE is signed, not the data/content on the disc.
Post by: rocarmy4life on January 31, 2006, 07:17:00 AM
QUOTE(nikiiv @ Jan 31 2006, 03:03 PM)
You cannot cheat on live with this. Cheating will require changing the original signed xbe, which cannot be done. This trick only allows you to play backups on LIVE, since XBOX does not know that those are backups..
i dont think splintercell requires the xbe to be modified...
all splintrcell used was an ini file... you could enable and disable all kinds of shit in that file...
im not sure if this is the same with the newest versions of the game though, but just goes to show that you do not need to modify the xbe of a game to alter it... now if you were thinking people might use trainers, then no, they cant because they cant execute homebrew like evox and xored... as those are not signed...
Post by: ksteiner on January 31, 2006, 07:21:00 AM
Post by: kenop on January 31, 2006, 07:50:00 AM
FYI the black one still available for a few bucks more: $25.99 + $4.70 UPS 3day.
Item #: N82E16827136050
get to it, gents
Post by: TwigFigure on January 31, 2006, 07:52:00 AM
QUOTE(MacDennis @ Jan 31 2006, 11:08 PM)
Each game: yes. Each disc: partially
PS2 games use a system called DNAS. This site mentions some ID's: DNAS.
I assume ps2 games are pressed in (identical) batches. Or each manufacturing plant could be using an unique master of a particular game.
I don't see how you can say 'partially' considering if two games go online using the same key, one won't authenticate.
Post by: dbldown768 on January 31, 2006, 07:53:00 AM
Post by: flat235 on January 31, 2006, 08:18:00 AM
It doesnt enable / facilitate homebrew code execution - the only possible uses for it are piracy and cheating on Live!. Now I'm not gonna sit here and lecture you on the evils of copying games - what you do in your own home is your business - but this research could cause big problem on Live! - and that's a bad thing imo.
Perhaps more importantly, is how MS would respond to any mainstream implementation of this. There wouldn't be too much they could do - aside from making each game's XBE hash the *whole DVD filesystem* to verify the integrity of the supporting files (ini, etc). What worries me though, is what MS is gonna do about it legally - this could give them sufficient ammunition to start taking sites like XS and XBH *down* simply for discussing it. Until now, modchips and softmods have been difficult legally, because they facilitate homebrew execution - and the "fair use" stuff makes that pretty much legal. This attack on the DVD drive *can only* facilitate piracy and cheating..
So yeah - I know it makes little or no difference - but if I were in TheSpecialists position I would be giving a lot of thought to the consequences of this stuff - and if I were a site admin on a site like XS I'd be giving serious thought to how much of it I want on my site.
A
You know, as impressive as this is technically, I'm inclined to agree with the guy a few posts up - this should never see the light of day.
It doesnt enable / facilitate homebrew code execution - the only possible uses for it are piracy and cheating on Live!. Now I'm not gonna sit here and lecture you on the evils of copying games - what you do in your own home is your business - but this research could cause big problem on Live! - and that's a bad thing imo.
Perhaps more importantly, is how MS would respond to any mainstream implementation of this. There wouldn't be too much they could do - aside from making each game's XBE hash the *whole DVD filesystem* to verify the integrity of the supporting files (ini, etc). What worries me though, is what MS is gonna do about it legally - this could give them sufficient ammunition to start taking sites like XS and XBH *down* simply for discussing it. Until now, modchips and softmods have been difficult legally, because they facilitate homebrew execution - and the "fair use" stuff makes that pretty much legal. This attack on the DVD drive *can only* facilitate piracy and cheating..
So yeah - I know it makes little or no difference - but if I were in TheSpecialists position I would be giving a lot of thought to the consequences of this stuff - and if I were a site admin on a site like XS I'd be giving serious thought to how much of it I want on my site.
A
Post by: TSOPrano on January 31, 2006, 08:26:00 AM
Interesting news though, too bad it didn't come out 3 years ago
Then again this whole looking into the firmware was spawned out of curiosity of the 360 drive.
Maybe it has been said but do you not all remember what ConfigMagic looks like? When you load it up it tells you information about your DVD-ROM, do you not think MS some sort of similar check on Live that does a more thourough scan of the DVD firmware, and if they don't it will be implemented as soon as this hack goes public.
Interesting news though, too bad it didn't come out 3 years ago
Then again this whole looking into the firmware was spawned out of curiosity of the 360 drive.
Post by: crustyteacup on January 31, 2006, 08:29:00 AM
this is more of a development for the 360, nobody needs a firmware hack for the xbox, everyone who wants it just hides behind the excuse of "i don't want to use my original in case it gets damaged"; well i have to ask why the hell did you buy an original game if your so worried it might get damaged? why do so many people talk about how they like using "backups" to play instead of originals in case it gets damaged. heres a thought, you bought it, so use it and stop making excuses for the fact that no doubt most people who claim to use backups have a pirated copy of the game. so long as you keep the game in its case while your not playing it, how is your game ever going to possibly get damaged? i also particularly like the phrase "i'm protecting my investment"; yeah sure you could quite easily "protect your investment" by looking after the stuff you bought without having to "backup" your "investment". if your game gets damaged you buy a new one, thats the nature of life.
people with young kids who don't want them to damage there "originals" should maybe just kick there kids outside to play on the swings instead of videogames, cause there obviously too young to play games if there going to damage them.
commence the firing squad......
Post by: derived on January 31, 2006, 08:34:00 AM
QUOTE(scsscs @ Jan 31 2006, 08:35 AM)
I bet this is the kind of 360 hack Team Xecuter was talking about would be released in the coming weeks/months. Back in the beginning of January they said that for the 360 "unsigned code is looking unlikely atm but booting of raw dumps maybe quite possible.." A similar hack for the 360 would explain this quote.
It was nothing to do with Team Xecuter you can follow the thread on Xboxhacker and learn exactly how it works, what led up to it and where it is ultimately going.
Just like Xbox 1, the modchip teams don't contribute towards initial hacks, they prefer to wait for others to hack it as opposed to taking any risk themselves.
Post by: deltop on January 31, 2006, 08:45:00 AM
If this was released into the wild it would be relatively easy for ms to introduce a check to verify the integrity of the dvd firmware, just as they already check for a number of other possible problems. Sure you could make it more difficult for them but what's the point? A couple of updates and it would be rendered useless. So stop worrying about the implications for Live, there aren't any.
Post by: derived on January 31, 2006, 08:45:00 AM
The only way hackers could use this hack to cheat is by modifying game files ie. textures and lighting. Everything else is stored in the XBE, which can't be changed. The only hacks that might be achievable by modifying game files are half-arsed wall hacks... difficult to make but trivial to prevent with an update.
edit: beaten, stupid laggy forums
Post by: adamscybot on January 31, 2006, 08:49:00 AM
BUT, my xbox is already modded with XBIT and 80gb HD.
You can then mod the firmware and play backups on live with modchip off and with modchip on play your homebrew - perfectly feasible.
Whether M$ pick up on it and check for DVD firmware is a different story. But I imagine editing the hacked firmware could close M$'s oppurtunity to check for this - or make it harder at least.
Cheating is an obvious issue. But you wont see it on Halo 2. You boot the modded map on disc - play live - gets put in cache - MS checks cache - banned.
I must agree though, it can't really be used for much more than piracy.
Adam
Post by: mkjones on January 31, 2006, 09:11:00 AM
If anything sinister was added to the game wouldnt the Live! system find it and ban the user?
What I mean is, 1-1 copies should work, but not with a shit load of cheats modded into the file?
Anyone see what I mean
Post by: psychoace on January 31, 2006, 09:17:00 AM
Post by: jfoster on January 31, 2006, 09:19:00 AM
This is very similar to what "some people" went through when hacking DSS, exept they didn't have direct access to the machine, but MS does.
If the 360 does ever get hacked, its going to be just like the SAT days. You will have to check the web each day before you turn on your box to see if MS is blacklisting the particular hack/code you are running.
Post by: BlueCop on January 31, 2006, 09:20:00 AM
DirecTV/Dish Network/Bell vu sat services all are sending all their information all the time. there is no back and forth. It is a much more vulnerable model then we are dealing with. All you have to do with them is break their key distorbution model and you have unencrypted tv.
Post by: MacDennis on January 31, 2006, 09:20:00 AM
QUOTE(Casper1786 @ Jan 31 2006, 05:00 PM)
well there is another option in the bit about these CDKeys witch actually would be great
say they added a small peice of code to the front of a game before it boots, asking for a serial code(contained inside the packaging), this key is only needed to be entered once on the system, stores the key in memory(should offer Key deletion), and call it up each time the game go's to boot, verifies and all good(data files used to verifie key should also be signed)
Post by: cyberg4 on January 31, 2006, 09:41:00 AM
Post by: krawhitham on January 31, 2006, 09:44:00 AM
QUOTE(flat235 @ Jan 31 2006, 04:53 PM)
and the "fair use" stuff makes that pretty much legal. This attack on the DVD drive *can only* facilitate piracy and cheating..
it still falls under fair use, what difference does it make if you flash the system bios or the dvd firmware to play backups
but that does not matter is is ILLEGAL either way because of the dmca
Post by: throwingks on January 31, 2006, 09:47:00 AM
QUOTE(crustyteacup @ Jan 31 2006, 08:36 AM)
i wouldn't exactly say this is a massive thing. MS control Live, its their playground, and their rules and they can change those rule anytime they want. i'm sure they could impliment checks for firmware if this becomes widespread. i'm going to have a little rant now....
this is more of a development for the 360, nobody needs a firmware hack for the xbox, everyone who wants it just hides behind the excuse of "i don't want to use my original in case it gets damaged"; well i have to ask why the hell did you buy an original game if your so worried it might get damaged? why do so many people talk about how they like using "backups" to play instead of originals in case it gets damaged. heres a thought, you bought it, so use it and stop making excuses for the fact that no doubt most people who claim to use backups have a pirated copy of the game. so long as you keep the game in its case while your not playing it, how is your game ever going to possibly get damaged? i also particularly like the phrase "i'm protecting my investment"; yeah sure you could quite easily "protect your investment" by looking after the stuff you bought without having to "backup" your "investment". if your game gets damaged you buy a new one, thats the nature of life.
people with young kids who don't want them to damage there "originals" should maybe just kick there kids outside to play on the swings instead of videogames, cause there obviously too young to play games if there going to damage them.
commence the firing squad......
Why buy the game if you are scared it will get damaged? Ummm... to play it.
Disks scratch through normal use.
And, kids should be allowed to play games that is why they have games rated EC or E. You can't always send them to play on swings.
Post by: krawhitham on January 31, 2006, 09:50:00 AM
Post by: Textbook on January 31, 2006, 09:54:00 AM
QUOTE(crustyteacup @ Jan 31 2006, 10:36 AM)
i wouldn't exactly say this is a massive thing. MS control Live, its their playground, and their rules and they can change those rule anytime they want. i'm sure they could impliment checks for firmware if this becomes widespread. i'm going to have a little rant now....
this is more of a development for the 360, nobody needs a firmware hack for the xbox, everyone who wants it just hides behind the excuse of "i don't want to use my original in case it gets damaged"; well i have to ask why the hell did you buy an original game if your so worried it might get damaged? why do so many people talk about how they like using "backups" to play instead of originals in case it gets damaged. heres a thought, you bought it, so use it and stop making excuses for the fact that no doubt most people who claim to use backups have a pirated copy of the game. so long as you keep the game in its case while your not playing it, how is your game ever going to possibly get damaged? i also particularly like the phrase "i'm protecting my investment"; yeah sure you could quite easily "protect your investment" by looking after the stuff you bought without having to "backup" your "investment". if your game gets damaged you buy a new one, thats the nature of life.
people with young kids who don't want them to damage there "originals" should maybe just kick there kids outside to play on the swings instead of videogames, cause there obviously too young to play games if there going to damage them.
commence the firing squad......
Would you like to see a picture of the retail original store-bought Halo 2 that my Xbox Samsung drive scratched a perfect circle in? It lags in the menus all the time.... I would sure love to be able to play a 1:1 backup of it. I hate cheaters too, but playing a good copy of Halo 2 on LIVE would sure be nice.
Post by: deltop on January 31, 2006, 10:14:00 AM
QUOTE(krawhitham @ Jan 31 2006, 06:57 PM)
if it will be so easy to detect why have we not seen xbox utilites that read and flash DVD firmwares?
Why would you need such a piece of software?
Software is written becuase it fulfills a function. I can't see why anyone would bother to write a piece of xbox software to read or write to the dvd drive's firmware? Reading and checking the firmware isn't difficult. Why would you believe otherwise? It's done as a matter of course if you have a pc. Firmware updates are released all the time for dvd drives. TheSpecialist himself has said that ms could detect this hack easily enough.
Post by: Casper1786 on January 31, 2006, 10:19:00 AM
QUOTE(MacDennis @ Jan 31 2006, 10:27 AM)
Nice theory, but where would the console store the keys if a harddisk isn't connected?
I'm sure if you were to finish reading that the key would have to be stored in userProfile>Game save directory, i didn't word it exactly liek that but hell ur a little slow of a reader so i simplified it for ya, say maybe u have a MEMORY CARD? i dunno man think about it, a key would be so little data to store and would best be placed with the Gamesave? and me saying "memory" didn't dictate the HDD ass wad i was aware not all ppl have HDDs so don't try the rollying eyes shit
Post by: zeroprobe on January 31, 2006, 10:47:00 AM
Its funny to me how many of you are all hiding behind a homebrew front. YEH whatever. The point been one step closer to getting "homebrew" running on the 360. So stop bitching and crying about the fact there is progress been made.
I could probably bet the house that not one of you with a modchip is 100% homebrew only.
Post by: infinityfsp2002 on January 31, 2006, 10:57:00 AM
MS also cannot fix this method without having completely new drives with different security, since currently any checks added could in theory be faked.
I hope this never becomes public anyway as its only for pirated copies, and too many idiots do not deserve this. Copies will suddenly be sold everywhere, and all kinds of crap.
Post by: peregrin641 on January 31, 2006, 10:58:00 AM
QUOTE
Thanks everybody for the kind replies, both here, on other boards and PM's. I just reread the post from bunnie:
QUOTE
I had finally extracted the RC-4 key in early march. I remember when I first got it--it was like 4 AM, nikki was asleep and I was sifting through my LDT bus traces trying to find the key, and all of a sudden my RC-4 decrypt output histogram went off the chart and voila, there was the key! I was so excited, I blurted out the information to a few fellows who were hanging out in a chatroom with me, only to realize ten minutes later the full implications of what I had done. After that night, we all agreed to keep my finding a secret and go our separate ways. I have no idea if that mistake of mine had lead to any modchip's development, or what, but who knows; I'd like to believe, at least, that I had nothing to do with the modchips out there because of the legal implications.
The next week I reported my findings to my reserach group (who was also involved in this work), and that's when my research advisor told me to get a lawyer; enter the EFF. From march until May, I was meeting with lawyers, and sweating bullets over what MS was going to do to me. MIT was offering no support, and in fact, they had declared that they would have nothing to do with my work, because their lawyers were afraid of the legal ramifications, and afraid of MS.
I now completely understand how he must have felt It was also 4 AM for me yesterday, when I inserted the patched drive into my xbox and inserting a backup for the first time, to see if it worked. I too felt great euphoria when it did However, after the 'come down' you start to realise that your work could have major impact...
I like hacking. I always liked it. I like the process. Till now, nobody 'profited' from what I did. I'd like to keep it that way People are, very kindly, already offering me hardware and even money to get a hack done for the 360. I really appreciate it, but I don't want to prosper financially in any way from my work.
I understand that releasing this hack would have major impact. Althought I seriously doubt that releasing a 'firmware *patcher* is illegal, I don't want to take my chances on it I think anybody who wants to do something like that should ask himself if it's worth all the trouble he might get into. I feel it's not. That's why I'm not releasing anything. I hope everybody understands
http://www.xboxhacke...msg2854#msg2854
Post by: infinityfsp2002 on January 31, 2006, 11:00:00 AM
Post by: asteron on January 31, 2006, 11:13:00 AM
Just place an xboxdash.xbe on a dvd-r with modified font files used as an xbe loader to load XBMC (instead of a bios loader). If you cant use xboxdash.xbe for whatever reason you can just find a buffer overflow in any game... it should be easy if you have the ability to modify data files that were assumed protected.
Post by: ksteiner on January 31, 2006, 11:14:00 AM
Post by: shodanjr_gr on January 31, 2006, 11:19:00 AM
QUOTE(asteron @ Jan 31 2006, 08:20 PM)
Can't this easily be used to do homebrew?
Just place an xboxdash.xbe on a dvd-r with modified font files used as an xbe loader to load XBMC (instead of a bios loader). If you cant use xboxdash.xbe for whatever reason you can just find a buffer overflow in any game... it should be easy if you have the ability to modify data files that were assumed protected.
Probably wont work. xboxdash.xbe is probably flaged with the hard drive media flag. So if you try to run it of a dvd (even using the hacked firmware) the flag and the media wouldnt match and the xbe wouldnt run. If you try to edit the media flag, then you fubar the signature and the file doesnt run as it cant be authenticated by the bios.
Post by: Textbook on January 31, 2006, 11:30:00 AM
@infinityfsp2002, you have 4 posts and you're yelling at us saying we are the uninformed? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing that is signed (and therefore checked) is the xbe. The data files are not signed and can be changed. That's the entire reason why there was so much Halo 2 cheating. Nobody ever changed the xbe file, they hacked the .map files. It would be the same in this case, because the .map file could be edited, signed, and put back on the disc. People are(were) doing this with the Xbox 360 Kiosk disc. They couldn't change much (couldn't change the XEX, but they could swap out video files and even shader graphics in King Kong. I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.
Post by: mandrake001 on January 31, 2006, 11:39:00 AM
Post by: JUANVAN on January 31, 2006, 12:00:00 PM
Drive + HD + MOBO ~ Live - correct?
2nd they might beable to find the hack in the firmware pending on how its done. They would most likely have to release a new dashboard to do it.
I do Belive releaseing this would be in the Worst thing to happen to LIVE since modding started.. I would like to see it for all those ppl who want to play the games... b/c ya know thats just how it is but.. b/c of the live impact I do not like the Idea.
Post by: throwingks on January 31, 2006, 12:14:00 PM
QUOTE(tommasi @ Jan 31 2006, 12:02 PM)
can anyone explane how is that hack works and show us how we can do it plz and what we need to get to do it??
Or you could read 7 posts up from yours.
Post by: Lamer123 on January 31, 2006, 12:41:00 PM
Post by: assmonkey on January 31, 2006, 12:49:00 PM
but for those who are gonna use it to get on live ,i wouldnt bother sinse M$ will patch that shit in a hurry.Dont want to get banned again.MAybe if this hack was on the downlow maybe it would work.
Post by: Zanzang on January 31, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
QUOTE(pholly @ Jan 31 2006, 01:01 AM)
I hope this is real and is released soon, I have the drive he used and I hate worrying if my softmod is gonna screw up on me again
Can't wait to try this out Maybe because conspiring to bypass consumer copyright controls could land someone in jail for a good portion of their life?
Post by: Knocks on January 31, 2006, 12:57:00 PM
It may even be possible to use a signed xbe (like CDX) as a launcher for unsigned xbes. That might allow you to bypass the media flag--although I will have to double check on that one.
Post by: crypysmoker on January 31, 2006, 01:09:00 PM
"I have done the greatest achivment that everyone has been trying to do for years"...
NExt day< " Yeah I did it, but Im not gonna tell anyone how or what to use"
Conclusion, Lying.
I understand the guy has done a lot for the scene, but this is total bullshit.
Dont you think its just a little worng to come on and say I did it, then say Im a wuss and dont want to release the info on how to because it MIGHT not be legal???? and modding your xbox is?
What would have happened if the first mod chippers had done this?
What would happen if the people who found the first exploits decided to keep it to themselves?
What a waste of time.
NOw, if this is for real, hes gonna be the only one with a few of his friends playing back up games on xbox live, but wont let anyone else do it because its wrong??
hipocrite?
this really pisses me off, I have been in this scene for almost 3 years. I still have my 1.0 xbox from the day it was launched...
But now, those of us who have been waiting for something like this forever, arent allowed to know because your worried if its legal or not?
Wouldnt it be done anonomysly? duh?
You talk the talk, but all your doing is pulling stuff out of your ass.
Looks to me like the whole 360 modchip thing again.
"I got it to work"....
1 day later " I think I got it to work"..
3 days later.." I got it to work pefect, but Im not gonna tell you all because it might have bad consequesnces.
Get over yourself.
Some of is dont have the money to spend $50-$60 on games because we have families, and since the only implication this could be used for is playing backup games.... I mean... What was the point in releaseing that you did it, then say nevermind, I cant tell you how.
duh?
I love how your worried about the legality, when opening up your xbox and putting ina chip is just as bad if not worse.
Get over yourself
Post by: pholly on January 31, 2006, 01:25:00 PM
Post by: AfterTheInsanity on January 31, 2006, 01:25:00 PM
Post by: psychoace on January 31, 2006, 01:27:00 PM
QUOTE(#XboxBoy# @ Jan 31 2006, 09:21 PM)
Im somewhat glad he isnt going to release a firmwire patcher cuz he would fuck over the m$ with xbox. This would lead to nothing but pirated games and then you could play on live as well with a back-up. Only thing i hope to see from this is the 360 firmware hacked and beable to load unsigned code through some hack.
A. We are pretty sure that xbox live should be able to detect a new firmware and thus not run on live
B. I am pretty sure it hasn't been released for 1 of 2 reasons. 1. Fake 2. He got paid off by a mod chip company. When your making tons of money off of mod chips and someone is releasing a free alternative then your willing to share a few bucks in order to stay in buisness. I think that is why he talked about "not accepting money or hardware" for what he did. He got bribed. Hell if i had a nice new computer wagging in front of my face I know I would cave aswell
Post by: slipstream on January 31, 2006, 01:29:00 PM
And for those of you who complain that he is not releasing it, and comparing it to mod chips legal-wise, chips have the benefit of being able to run homebrew, while this doesnt, which means it can ONLY be used for piracy/backups.
-Slipstream
:::Former NinjaHacker::
Post by: jzoz01 on January 31, 2006, 01:29:00 PM
QUOTE(crypysmoker @ Jan 31 2006, 02:16 PM)
Ok, Guy come on..
"I have done the greatest achivment that everyone has been trying to do for years"...
NExt day< " Yeah I did it, but Im not gonna tell anyone how or what to use"
Conclusion, Lying.
I understand the guy has done a lot for the scene, but this is total bullshit.
Dont you think its just a little worng to come on and say I did it, then say Im a wuss and dont want to release the info on how to because it MIGHT not be legal???? and modding your xbox is?
What would have happened if the first mod chippers had done this?
What would happen if the people who found the first exploits decided to keep it to themselves?
What a waste of time.
NOw, if this is for real, hes gonna be the only one with a few of his friends playing back up games on xbox live, but wont let anyone else do it because its wrong??
hipocrite?
this really pisses me off, I have been in this scene for almost 3 years. I still have my 1.0 xbox from the day it was launched...
But now, those of us who have been waiting for something like this forever, arent allowed to know because your worried if its legal or not?
Wouldnt it be done anonomysly? duh?
You talk the talk, but all your doing is pulling stuff out of your ass.
Looks to me like the whole 360 modchip thing again.
"I got it to work"....
1 day later " I think I got it to work"..
3 days later.." I got it to work pefect, but Im not gonna tell you all because it might have bad consequesnces.
Get over yourself.
Some of is dont have the money to spend $50-$60 on games because we have families, and since the only implication this could be used for is playing backup games.... I mean... What was the point in releaseing that you did it, then say nevermind, I cant tell you how.
duh?
I love how your worried about the legality, when opening up your xbox and putting ina chip is just as bad if not worse.
Get over yourself
I thought the same thing initially as well, it had to be a lie. But if it was me I sure as shit wouldn't publicly release something like that. Look at what's happening to the creaters of many of the P2P file sharing programs, I can't imagine that MS's reaction would differ much from that of the RIAA. Get over yourself, so some one doesn't want to put his ass on the line so you can pirate games and play them on live. If it's such a big deal to you, you figure it out.
Post by: pholly on January 31, 2006, 01:30:00 PM
Post by: pholly on January 31, 2006, 01:35:00 PM
Post by: torbjorn on January 31, 2006, 01:43:00 PM
this is awesome news!!
look i wanna play on live- i dont wanna cheat..
but as it is 2day i cant..
MS looses money because i cant play on live cuz my modded box is so dangerous.. thats just crap..
if this releases and it works i am going to pay for my live account and enjoy my stay at live..
hope this is going to happen and be a part of reality soon..
so- keep up the good work bro-
Post by: XanTium on January 31, 2006, 01:45:00 PM
2/ Not release is lame? ... Let me ask you something. If you were as smart as TheSpecialist would you risk the rest of your live/career just for releasing this? It's simply a fact MS might not like it at all.
3/ In a way ... all info is out there ... the tech DVD thread over at XBH contains all research they did over the last few weeks. (http://www.xboxhacke...d=33&topic=76.0 ... only post in this thread if you have something tech to say - No general discussion)
Post by: dmozk on January 31, 2006, 01:49:00 PM
Stop bitching about a release and go do it yourself.
If you are crying poor about purchasing games then its all about using live isn't it? I mean there are plenty of other ways to run backups for free.. I'd say having live is a luxury, as is the internet connection to run it on - heck even the xbox itself is.
Be happy you have a roof for your family and stop being a knob.
Post by: prplehz on January 31, 2006, 01:51:00 PM
Post by: zilli0n on January 31, 2006, 01:58:00 PM
Post by: Monte2 on January 31, 2006, 02:00:00 PM
QUOTE(psychoace @ Jan 31 2006, 09:34 PM)
2. He got paid off by a mod chip company.
My thoughts exactly, especially since it could be possibly carried over to the 360 as well.
The mod chip people HATE soft-mods (it takes money out of their greedy pockets).
It will get released sooner or later. Personally I'll stick with my HDD and XBMC.
Post by: Chamrock on January 31, 2006, 02:10:00 PM
Post by: running_wild on January 31, 2006, 02:12:00 PM
I have been following that topic for weeks, and they have made amazing progress over that time, and they deserve whatever rewards they reap for their research. Especially The Specialist. He has contributed amazingly.
Congratulations guys. Now move it on to the 360.
I can respect why THe Specialist does not want to release it. MS would be forced to crack down on it, and the last thing we need is a more security hardened live. The hacking on live would also have potential to be aweful.
Post by: iLLNESS on January 31, 2006, 02:15:00 PM
just a waste of bw, waste of news, and a waste of your breath.
really i could care less if it makes it otu. if it does great for the scene. if it doesnt, perhaps you shoulda kept your mouth quiet about it all. just gonna be alot of pissed off sceners now
Post by: Ben999_ on January 31, 2006, 02:17:00 PM
QUOTE(psychoace @ Jan 31 2006, 03:34 PM)
A. We are pretty sure that xbox live should be able to detect a new firmware and thus not run on live
B. I am pretty sure it hasn't been released for 1 of 2 reasons. 1. Fake 2. He got paid off by a mod chip company. When your making tons of money off of mod chips and someone is releasing a free alternative then your willing to share a few bucks in order to stay in buisness. I think that is why he talked about "not accepting money or hardware" for what he did. He got bribed. Hell if i had a nice new computer wagging in front of my face I know I would cave aswell
"we" don't really know much of anything at this point but your second reason for not releasing doesn't make any sense. Soft mods are free and are much easier to use. This really doesn't relate to mod chip manufacturers because it won't do anything nearly as well as a modchip besides possibly running backups on Live, and even then it's not their place to be worried about that since it doesn't threaten them in any way. No one stands to lose much money from this except for software companies and MS.
Post by: Joergen on January 31, 2006, 02:20:00 PM
But oh my god xbox live is gonna get ruined with hackers now, when they can alter their files on the disc and boot directly without mod detection and play on live.
I'm more interested in how this will fare for 360. I'm kinda hoping it doesnt work so MS doesnt have to add file integrity checks (aka punkbuster) into their games.
Post by: Radagastmod on January 31, 2006, 02:28:00 PM
QUOTE(crypysmoker @ Jan 31 2006, 09:16 PM)
Ok, Guy come on..
"I have done the greatest achivment that everyone has been trying to do for years"...
NExt day< " Yeah I did it, but Im not gonna tell anyone how or what to use"
Conclusion, Lying.
I understand the guy has done a lot for the scene, but this is total bullshit.
Dont you think its just a little worng to come on and say I did it, then say Im a wuss and dont want to release the info on how to because it MIGHT not be legal???? and modding your xbox is?
What would have happened if the first mod chippers had done this?
What would happen if the people who found the first exploits decided to keep it to themselves?
What a waste of time.
NOw, if this is for real, hes gonna be the only one with a few of his friends playing back up games on xbox live, but wont let anyone else do it because its wrong??
hipocrite?
this really pisses me off, I have been in this scene for almost 3 years. I still have my 1.0 xbox from the day it was launched...
But now, those of us who have been waiting for something like this forever, arent allowed to know because your worried if its legal or not?
Wouldnt it be done anonomysly? duh?
You talk the talk, but all your doing is pulling stuff out of your ass.
Looks to me like the whole 360 modchip thing again.
"I got it to work"....
1 day later " I think I got it to work"..
3 days later.." I got it to work pefect, but Im not gonna tell you all because it might have bad consequesnces.
Get over yourself.
Some of is dont have the money to spend $50-$60 on games because we have families, and since the only implication this could be used for is playing backup games.... I mean... What was the point in releaseing that you did it, then say nevermind, I cant tell you how.
duh?
I love how your worried about the legality, when opening up your xbox and putting ina chip is just as bad if not worse.
Get over yourself
Someone spent hundreds of hours contributing technical information from their work towards running unsigned code on the 360, and wont release an easy to use patching tool so you can steal games.... How dare they!!! They wont even risk releasing an easy to use tool, under theat of financial devastation, after enough technical info to figure it out yourself has been posted in the technical forum. Unfathomable!!!
Post by: Gohan5052 on January 31, 2006, 02:31:00 PM
i dont like getting my hopes up just to get them shot down
Post by: deadparrot on January 31, 2006, 02:41:00 PM
I see perfect logic behind him not releasing it. Just like Angerwound with FuckMS. It could ruin Xbox forever. XBL would be filled with cheaters and pirates. They don't have to do this shit themselves, back alley pre-mods anyone?
Think about things before you bash them.
Post by: swolsten on January 31, 2006, 02:42:00 PM
QUOTE(dough4you @ Jan 31 2006, 09:32 PM)
I've been reading this post and I finally have to put my 2 cents in.
1. Maybe the specialist is well known and has been on the scene for a long time, but that doesn't mean he can't lie to gain some publicity. Just because you've been on the merry-go-round for a loooong time, doesn't mean you can't get frustrated you never grabbed the brass ring.
I would suggest witholding any kudos to thespecialist for any dvd firmware hack (you can give him kudos for all the other work he's done) until there's actually proof that he did it. By the way, I've already hacked the xbox360 so it can play all unsigned media, but I'm not going to release it either. Please feel free to start posts on multiple websites congratulating me on my work.
All sardonicism aside,
stfu. 1, if you want to patch the firware read xbh.net and do the patch yourself, all the information is there. 2, do you even understand what the firmware mod does? 3, whats the point in gaining publicity when you are already well respected by everyone that is anyone? 4, I am sure it will be varified, just not publically.
QUOTE
2. This whole "I'm not releasing anything because M$ might come after me" is the most ridiculous thing I've seen as a reason. There are tons of mods and softmods and firmware hacks and sh**loads of other stuff using copyrighted material that are out there right now. Where would ANY of xbox modding be if everyone had the same attitude. There are PLENTY of anonymous ways to release a dvd firmware hack to the public, and not implicate yourself. The fact that you've talked about it openly is circumstantial (ie yes I hacked the firmware, but I burned all my files. the one on the internet right now is not mine). I'm not even going to get any further into this one.
So, if someone sent you the firware on a floppy disk to your postal address would you host it on your website for everyone to download?
QUOTE
3. People asking for the firmware not to be released because some people might put it to bad use.
OMG get off your high horses. Is there honour among thieves all of a sudden? If you modded your xbox, you have done a bad thing. M$ made a product and a market strategy and you ruined it by modding the xbox for your own gains. People that all of a sudden gain a conscious and say what they did with their xbox is OK, but for someone to do something else is wrong.
The whole point of modding is to allow people to do with their xbox what they want, without judgement. This is like an arguement about what kind of premeditated murders are acceptable. If you mod your xbox, don't judge someone else who mod's his. Just like M$ now has to deal with the can of worms that modding has caused, so do you!
Running backups on xbconnect and running backups with modified settings on live are two totally different things. Say your car in pgr2 is twice as fast as everyone in a race, this could be done without moidifying the xbe, so is that fair for everyone else? what about the people that paid for the game? Should their experiance be fcuked by you running modified DVD firmware?
At the end of the day hacked firware only allows you to run backups, it doesnt allow unsigned code, run linux, run dashboard. It can only be used for piracy..
Post by: adamscybot on January 31, 2006, 02:46:00 PM
No release - anyway, I understand - we should concentrate on the 360 rather than giving pirates/cheaters an ounce of hope.
Post by: unspoiledpuma on January 31, 2006, 02:51:00 PM
Other Point: If i were the specialist i will not post any information from is computer to not be retraced, multiple proxy or send information through another internet acces point... my 2 cents
Post by: ksteiner on January 31, 2006, 02:55:00 PM
Post by: pholly on January 31, 2006, 03:01:00 PM
Post by: UrbanRiot on January 31, 2006, 03:08:00 PM
QUOTE(ksteiner @ Jan 31 2006, 11:02 PM)
He doesnt want to release because well if it was you would you release something that can put you away in prison for the rest of your life? I wouldnt do it. Just cause a bunch of self centered idiots want to cheat on live.
The argument that this will be used to cheat on live is rediculous. People have had game files on their computers for years and it's rare that I encounter cheating in an online game. Hacking Live Xbox games are considerably more difficult, and just because someone figures out how to hack a specific game in particular doesn't mean the entire system is compromised.
Haven't people already been hacking Halo and Halo 2? I didn't see the demise of Xbox Live there... just further player protection strategies.
Citing the protection of Live players is silly.
I can however understand the legal ramifications, and being scared silly of releasing this. Instead, wait a few months and quietly send it out as someone else, say on IRC
Post by: Crackmonger on January 31, 2006, 03:13:00 PM
Post by: nwo504 on January 31, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
Post by: theone31 on January 31, 2006, 04:53:00 PM
http://www.xboxhacke...d=33&topic=76.0 heres the direct link prob get in trouble for that but im honstly fed up of reading all these shitty posts about the guy when hes obviously found something
Post by: DivyX on January 31, 2006, 04:53:00 PM
I however feel sorry that this will go unreleased and i don't support specialists choice but i totally understand it and envy hes skills, and other contributers skills too.
I'm sad to see great effort put into something so big as this is, and then do nothing about it.
This was more like sad day giving everyone the impression that all the hardcore hacks won't never be released and generally all the fuss and work you payed attention to was for nothing to the general sceners...
also we know that these 3+ folks atleast, most likely uses this hack, and loves to play backups in live with it.
However, it's no sense to risk your future if you get loads of shit from it.
There will always be someone alternate or another making the same, hopefully.
Maybe hacking and specially cracking scene is too un-malicious and public in certain way for peeps not to dare publish anything rocking anymore.
Post by: Riao on January 31, 2006, 05:01:00 PM
Sorry to beat on my own dead horse. That's all I'll say in this matter. I'll drop it from here.
EDIT --> Aside from this I do want to state that I fully understand the reasons for not releasing this. I do think that a lengthy and costly court battle would ensue (weather I am right or wrong) and who would ever want to go through that? Not I, that's for sure.
Post by: beterthnyu on January 31, 2006, 05:02:00 PM
I must admit that, Yes I was assuming he was from the United States, or some other equally legallyl binding country. If so, then yes its illegal.
It seems that he is registered as being from "The Netherlands". And just for the hell of it, I did my research. They do in fact have anti-piracy laws already in place, but nothing has been set in stone due to their being no case history to set precedence.
But here's the kicker. There is no specific laws against his acts in the Netherlands, (Its all based on old law about copywritten books and shit right now, and has been used against large piracy rings) But they have in fact passed a new law that will come into effect on July the 1st. This new law specifically bans the use of "backups", even for personal use. They have even made it a law to have to jack up the prices on dvd-rs to help prevent it.
So, I will gladly admit my error in assumption.
But this comes at an even greater cost to you morons staying true to his "I dont want a legal battle! Therefore I cant release it".
If there is not a law set in stone about this in his country, then why is he not releasing it?
Further proof that he is not trying to stay off of the wrong side of the law. THERE IS NO LAW IN THE NETHERLANDS ABOUT THIS HACK!!!!
Thank you for helping me prove myself correct, and further clarifing this inaccuracy.
Ah, Im sure glad I could help sort this all out.
Post by: MetalMickey on January 31, 2006, 05:02:00 PM
Kudos on the superb work by the Specialist. Ive been following the thread on xboxhacker and its breathtaking stuff. This guy will go far.
Post by: kipsman on January 31, 2006, 05:11:00 PM
Intends to release it but with complete anonymity or © Has really thought it through and maybe has way too much to lose, like a wife and kids.....Its tough to judge a man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes!
Xellaphan
Post by: Malik05 on January 31, 2006, 05:12:00 PM
Post by: faster90 on January 31, 2006, 05:27:00 PM
Post by: mrjkwik on January 31, 2006, 05:29:00 PM
do i care about piracy? no. why, because of the proven reason that has been published by more than one researcher (search digg for specifics). many people who pirate games, wouldnt buy the games even if they couldnt get them game by other means. so the game makers dont lose much. but yes, the lose some.
in otherwords by nature people are greedy. if they can get it for free, they will. if they cant, they wont.
how can you really blame the guy? sure, a lot of people have released different things for modded boxes, and to a certain extent, ms themselves have turned a blind eye. look at how sony has responded to chips and compare what ms has done about it. and my opinion is that the reason ms has never gone hardcore after chip makers and all is because xbox live is their golden child. their main innovation for consoles. and the easier dollar to make. afterall, modders for the most part, dont effect live since we cant access it. take however many subscribers they have, multiply that by 5 dollars (the average of a monthly subscription, and a yearly subscription/per month), then multiply that by 12, and thats what they are making per year from live (for lazy people, thats 90 million a year based off of January 05 subscription numbers).
dont mess with bills easy money.
thats why even if he/they run the same hack on the 360, will it get released? if his reasons are genuine for not releasing it for xbox, seems as though they would pertain to 360.
best to still hope for a chip that runs homebrew/unsigned code, and blocks live.
only way "most" will be happy.
Post by: RedivideR on January 31, 2006, 05:46:00 PM
QUOTE(sephiro499 @ Feb 1 2006, 01:43 AM)
While it is a technical feat what the Specialist has done why make such a big deal about it if you aren't going to release it into the wild?
Because it IS a big deal that the concept works! Only thing left is to wait for someone to use the info available to reproduce this kind of hack for the 360 and release it anonymously.
Post by: ZPaul2Fresh8 on January 31, 2006, 05:50:00 PM
Should've kept it to himself since he will not release it.
But good job non the less
keep up the good work, now focus on the 360 for free 
Post by: ZPaul2Fresh8 on January 31, 2006, 06:11:00 PM
QUOTE(quenlin @ Jan 31 2006, 08:04 PM)
1 - Perhaps everyone here cursing him out, calling him names, or calling him a liar is forgetting that this guy owes none of you a goddamn thing. If he was on the fence before about the morality of releasing the hack, then maybe after reading this shit his mind will be made up. I would rather keep something like this to myself than send it out so a bunch of whining, sniveling crybabies who write like they have a 5th grade education could use it.
2 - Even though he mostly discusses the legal implications of releasing it, i get the impression that he's much more worried about the moral side of things. With this thing out there Live cheating WILL become rampant, and MS, who has been rather passive in going after modders up until now, will start going after everyone full force. Legal manuevering by gigantic corporations against the little guy can be like a tidal wave. And I think that's what he's worried about. He doesn't want ordinary people being hit with huge lawsuits on his conscience.
3 - You can talk about the homebrew scene, linux, region free dvd, and fair use all you want, but the FACT of the matter is that the VAST majority of people that have a modded x-box want to be able to play games they don't own. PERIOD. I don't need to conduct a survey to know that the percentage of people who modded their x-box but have NEVER played a backup they don't own is virtually microscopic. The 'fair use' excuses and other justifications are tiresome.
Woohoo, pat that guy on the back! People want the damn firmware patch, there's no denying that. But I think the patch is useless. It will only allow people to cheat on XBL. If you want to run backups, softmodding is SO MUCH EASIER. You don't even have to crack the case.
Hence, a waste of time EXCEPT if you look at it as a learning experience. But again, I'm not dissing the Specialist, he seems like a cool cat.
Post by: TSOPrano on January 31, 2006, 06:26:00 PM
QUOTE(krawhitham @ Jan 31 2006, 05:57 PM)
if it will be so easy to detect why have we not seen xbox utilites that read and flash DVD firmwares?
Like I said above, fire up ConfigMagic. It reads the EEPROM and maybe it gets info from the DVD firmware filtered through it but it does know what drive/model etc you are using.
Post by: failurbydesign on January 31, 2006, 06:27:00 PM
Post by: tronxoe on January 31, 2006, 06:28:00 PM
Why didn't anybody think about this hack before?
1. At the early stage of xbox hacking, There was already 1 or 2 tutorials about replacing an Xbox DVDROM with a PC DVDROM. This means kernel doesn't check if the DVDRom firmware is legit!
2. And long ago, we had found a media flag in xbe telling which media is a game/application allowed to be run on.
This hack is probably simple by changing the answer
whenever the kernel asks the DVDROM:
"What type of media is inside you rightnow?".
And DVDROM always answers "It's a retail DVD" (even if it's a DVD-R inside).
Congrat TheSpecialist!
Post by: TSOPrano on January 31, 2006, 06:29:00 PM
QUOTE(krawhitham @ Jan 31 2006, 05:57 PM)
if it will be so easy to detect why have we not seen xbox utilites that read and flash DVD firmwares?
Like I said above, fire up ConfigMagic. It reads the EEPROM and maybe it gets info from the DVD firmware filtered through it but it does know what drive/model etc you are using.
Post by: UrbanRiot on January 31, 2006, 06:39:00 PM
QUOTE(tronxoe @ Feb 1 2006, 02:32 AM)
I just wonder:
Why didn't anybody think about this hack before?
A few reasons:
1) There's less people doing the down and dirty reverse engineering hacking than you might realize.
2) Someone may have, but they kept their mouth shut realizing they either don't want the scene attention, or any type of legal wrangling.
3) Once chipping, tsop flashing and softmodding became the norm it wasn't really necessary to poke into ATAPI communications.
Post by: cONEction on January 31, 2006, 06:43:00 PM
QUOTE(tronxoe @ Feb 1 2006, 02:32 AM)
I just wonder:
Why didn't anybody think about this hack before?
1. At the early stage of xbox hacking, There was already 1 or 2 tutorials about replacing an Xbox DVDROM with a PC DVDROM. This means kernel doesn't check if the DVDRom firmware is legit!
2. And long ago, we had found a media flag in xbe telling which media is a game/application allowed to be run on.
This hack is probably simple by changing the answer
whenever the kernel asks the DVDROM:
"What type of media is inside you rightnow?".
And DVDROM always answers "It's a retail DVD" (even if it's a DVD-R inside).
I ask myself the same thing, the concept is easy and I think hacking the dvd firmware was much easier than hacking the XBOX itself, I dont say I could have done it.
I knew this was possible because I have followed the Game cube scene for a while and we got the XenoGC chip lately, which is nothing more than a DVD hack just like this one, so I knew this was also possible with the XBOX drive,
Anyways thumps up for thespecialist, he did a great job, I think he has a life and is worried about the concequences, since I can understand that he is not just a student hacking stuff, but has great background knowledge about firmwares in general, so he might lose his job and more if he is from the Netherlands, since they are pretty hard lately on hardware modders.
I do hope that he continue his work on XBOX360, and sell his work to Teamxecuter, gets rich (what smart ppl deserve) and enjoys life
Post by: iLLNESS on January 31, 2006, 06:48:00 PM
just a waste of bw, waste of news, and a waste of your breath.
really i could care less if it makes it otu. if it does great for the scene. if it doesnt, perhaps you shoulda kept your mouth quiet about it all. just gonna be alot of pissed off sceners now
Post by: bourke on January 31, 2006, 06:55:00 PM
QUOTE(iLLNESS @ Feb 1 2006, 02:55 AM)
the whole arguement is, why is this guy bothering to say he did it, if he has absolutely no intention of releasing it
just a waste of bw, waste of news, and a waste of your breath.
really i could care less if it makes it otu. if it does great for the scene. if it doesnt, perhaps you shoulda kept your mouth quiet about it all. just gonna be alot of pissed off sceners now
If you actually used your eyes and brain before your fingers/mouth you would see that he actually posted information on pretty much exactly how he did it.
So any mug with an computer engineering degree is perfectly capable of replicating!
I'll give it 4 months now until the Xeno360 chip arrives and I install it :-)
Cheers,
Bourkie
Post by: ndsbass on January 31, 2006, 07:13:00 PM
QUOTE(iLLNESS @ Jan 31 2006, 07:55 PM)
the whole arguement is, why is this guy bothering to say he did it, if he has absolutely no intention of releasing it
just a waste of bw, waste of news, and a waste of your breath.
really i could care less if it makes it otu. if it does great for the scene. if it doesnt, perhaps you shoulda kept your mouth quiet about it all. just gonna be alot of pissed off sceners now
exactly
all though its a cool idea he seems to brag a little too much, especially if hes gonna keep it for himself. i dont think it should be widespread either, or at least until this is implemented in the 360 so at least the modding community has a headstart on ms and a possible live update to block modified firmware.
i congratulate the specialist on his work, however his whole news item seems to be "o look how good i am, i feel like bunnie, etc.".
Post by: mij1525 on January 31, 2006, 07:30:00 PM
Post by: mrjkwik on January 31, 2006, 07:46:00 PM
he "did it", and was excited about it, informed his site. after sleeping on it, realized what "could" happen, and made a decision based on that.
an accomplishment without some sort of recongition is often an empty accomplisment.
Post by: bourke on January 31, 2006, 07:53:00 PM
1 running the homebrew off memory card from the saved game on memory card (or hard drive)
2 using the saved game to run the homebrew from the hard drive
3 using the saved game to run the homebrew from the DVDR (by inserting it into the AUF image - as this does not involve changing any xbe signatures)
Cheers,
Bourkie
Post by: Base8 on January 31, 2006, 08:00:00 PM
Post by: bourke on January 31, 2006, 08:17:00 PM
QUOTE(UrbanRiot @ Feb 1 2006, 03:28 AM)
South Korea also posted more information about cloning than TheSpecialist posted about the details of how it's done, and look what happened there...
You can't jump all over people for being skeptical in this day and age when someone says something along the lines of, "I've discovered something crazy awesome, but I'm not going to show you."
Everyone needs to chill out a little and wait a few days. If what TheSpecialist has said is true, and he's provided the details on how it's done, then we'll see it reproduced by someone else in a matter of days. That's what science is all about... disproving (or proving) theories, speculations and/or other experiments.
You obviously need to do what I wrote as well - other people have already corroborated The Specialist's work. Do you think that SiliconICE posts every lame claim that appears on his forums?!
Oh that's right, you already read every post and knew what you were talking about! Learn to research yourself before trying to talk about it - otherwise it just makes you look like a complete hypocrite.
Cheers,
Bourkie
Post by: haki1112 on January 31, 2006, 09:21:00 PM
Post by: TSOPrano on January 31, 2006, 09:30:00 PM
Post by: dom0012 on January 31, 2006, 09:31:00 PM
Post by: mij1525 on January 31, 2006, 09:39:00 PM
I made cold fusion! I'm not going to tell you how I did it or show any proof, but my friend says I did it. Just look at his website!
Dumbasses. If you can do it, show it. Don't be such a puss.
Until then, it hasn't happened! Accept it.
Post by: bourke on January 31, 2006, 09:48:00 PM
QUOTE(mij1525 @ Feb 1 2006, 05:46 AM)
Hey Guys,
I made cold fusion! I'm not going to tell you how I did it or show any proof, but my friend says I did it. Just look at his website!
Dumbasses. If you can do it, show it. Don't be such a puss.
Until then, it hasn't happened! Accept it.
If any of you had eyes or brains you would have already seen that The Specialist (and several other engineers) have been working on this hack for a few months over at XBox Hacker.
If you haven't gone there to see for yourself then you are all even dumber than you are making out.
BourkieTM
Post by: chickenpie on January 31, 2006, 10:02:00 PM
Post by: chickenpie on January 31, 2006, 10:09:00 PM
QUOTE(CrazyCowPie @ Feb 1 2006, 07:09 AM)
...but if you're not releasing anything, how can we benifit from this discovery? just a thought...
Because your not meant to benifit...your meant to help in hacking the 360 firmware....it wasnt hacked so you can play your pirate xbox games on live or what ever.
Post by: mij1525 on January 31, 2006, 10:14:00 PM
QUOTE(bourke @ Feb 1 2006, 05:55 AM)
If any of you had eyes or brains you would have already seen that The Specialist (and several other engineers) have been working on this hack for a few months over at XBox Hacker.
If you haven't gone there to see for yourself then you are all even dumber than you are making out.
BourkieTM
You're all missing the point. Whether it's fake or not doesn't matter. The fact that he doesn't post the information or proof, no matter who says it's real, makes it useless information. At this point, it's fiction. Just like vampires, Atlantis, and a 360 mod chip.
You're real good at defending him, Bourkie, I've read your previous posts. The fact of the matter is, this whole whole thread is pointless unless some knowledge is passed. I can talk about something for a while too and still fake it. I think this 360 modchip thing is proof of the elaborate scams people go through for money or recognition.
I'll say it again. Show us some proof, pass some knowledge, or shup up about it.
Post by: bourke on January 31, 2006, 10:47:00 PM
QUOTE(mij1525 @ Feb 1 2006, 06:21 AM)
You're all missing the point. Whether it's fake or not doesn't matter. The fact that he doesn't post the information or proof, no matter who says it's real, makes it useless information. At this point, it's fiction. Just like vampires, Atlantis, and a 360 mod chip.
You're real good at defending him, Bourkie, I've read your previous posts. The fact of the matter is, this whole whole thread is pointless unless some knowledge is passed. I can talk about something for a while too and still fake it. I think this 360 modchip thing is proof of the elaborate scams people go through for money or recognition.
I'll say it again. Show us some proof, pass some knowledge, or shup up about it.
1. You are the only one missing the points.
2. You are not reading what I have written so even claiming you have just adds to how stupid you are making yourself look (maybe that is intentional?)
3. I reiterate for the 4th time: HE HAS POSTED EXACTLY HOW HE (and others) ARRIVED AT THE BREAKTHROUGH - IN SUFFICIENT DETAIL.
4. The thread is not pointless as it was never intended as a thread to pass the knowledge on here - he has already done that in the forum that you still obviously have not read - READ IT GOD DAMN IT!
5. Proof has been shown - so you are the one that needs to shut up alright.
BourkieTM
Post by: Math1 on January 31, 2006, 11:00:00 PM
This, if it is fully released and easy to implement is the nail in the coffin for Xbox games. The sytem was going away soon anyway, now that the 360 is out, but this will totally kill it.
Great job.
Post by: MacDennis on February 01, 2006, 01:14:00 AM
QUOTE(RX3 @ Feb 1 2006, 07:02 AM)
"I want a mod for my Xbox and I want it now! Mommy The Specialist is teasing us."
Post by: nwo504 on February 01, 2006, 01:32:00 AM
Most people who have pirated xbox games already know about the millions of ways to play backups on xbox and hacking the firmware will still probablay require you to open the xbox so it wouldn't be like dreamcast where you dont have to. Good looking anyways. Maybe some good thing can come out of this.
Post by: Home Less on February 01, 2006, 02:07:00 AM
If the firmware hack is true, I hope that someone else works on it and releases it anonymously.
Post by: Chancer on February 01, 2006, 02:48:00 AM
This afternoon I am going through it in detail as I see some disturbing posts.
All the members flaming other members personally expect account restrictions.
Any members advocating. promoting or endorsing piracy in this thread or Halo 2 modding expect to lose your accounts.
Post by: bourke on February 01, 2006, 04:11:00 AM
QUOTE(RX3 @ Feb 1 2006, 07:02 AM)
Bourke don't sweat it man. This thread is really showing the different maturity levels in this forum. The ones saying The Specialist is a pu&&y, fkr and other insults are more than likely a bunch of whiney spoiled brat kids.
"I want a mod for my Xbox and I want it now! Mommy The Specialist is teasing us."
Thank RX3, it's just not nice to know that intelligent people like yourself and MacDennis etc have to put up with this crap in public ;-)
It's one thing to accuse The Specialist of being soft for not posting his firmware... it's quite another to tell us to do research and prove it works when it's blatently obvious the poster has done no research themselves whatsoever and that there are pages of proof a mere mouse click away LOL!
You wonder why the human race is going down hill... these people should be banned from breeding.
Post by: ncaissie on February 01, 2006, 05:27:00 AM
QUOTE(flat235 @ Feb 1 2006, 06:54 AM)
Hey,
Just wanted to say props to TheSpecialist for keeping this research in the closet for now - ignore the people telling you you're lying or whatever - anyone who's read the thread on xbh can see that you got it going.
That doesn't prove anything.
Post by: swolsten on February 01, 2006, 05:29:00 AM
I think people are looking at this hack from the wrong angle.
Take a look at the holes in the original xbox.
RC4 - Key was found, exploit found in RC4 to bypass and allow a bios signed with one key to run on multiple versions
BIOS In TSOP - after RC4 key was found this was decrypted, fudged, hacked, built, modified etc to do all the nice things we like.
Exploits - Allows us to inject unsigned code into running memory and execute our own "apps".
What have they done with the 360?
Bios stored somewhere else, CPU?? who knows.
All hardware is bound to the 360 - 16byte key in DVD firmware may confirm this, not been keeping track.
RC4 not used, AES/SHA1??
Hypervisor to reduce the chance of exploits working. Even if you can exploit, you only exploit that virtual machine not the entire box.
Now, did they include anything in the bios that would check the firmware on the DVD drive, if not, this is a major step forward for modchip makers, everything they used from the original box has now been taken away. Its now over to them, they made millions from the original, they need to take the risk and make the money on the 360. Why should someone that has helped out for fun and the challange get screwed.
Personally I couldnt care less about running backups, I have all the games I want for the 360 and I only modded the original for fun.
Well done to everyone involved from XBH.N, keep the info flowing and ignore all the tards
S
Not read the entire thread so this may of been said before but here my view on all this.
I think people are looking at this hack from the wrong angle.
Take a look at the holes in the original xbox.
RC4 - Key was found, exploit found in RC4 to bypass and allow a bios signed with one key to run on multiple versions
BIOS In TSOP - after RC4 key was found this was decrypted, fudged, hacked, built, modified etc to do all the nice things we like.
Exploits - Allows us to inject unsigned code into running memory and execute our own "apps".
What have they done with the 360?
Bios stored somewhere else, CPU?? who knows.
All hardware is bound to the 360 - 16byte key in DVD firmware may confirm this, not been keeping track.
RC4 not used, AES/SHA1??
Hypervisor to reduce the chance of exploits working. Even if you can exploit, you only exploit that virtual machine not the entire box.
Now, did they include anything in the bios that would check the firmware on the DVD drive, if not, this is a major step forward for modchip makers, everything they used from the original box has now been taken away. Its now over to them, they made millions from the original, they need to take the risk and make the money on the 360. Why should someone that has helped out for fun and the challange get screwed.
Personally I couldnt care less about running backups, I have all the games I want for the 360 and I only modded the original for fun.
Well done to everyone involved from XBH.N, keep the info flowing and ignore all the tards
S
Post by: mksoftware on February 01, 2006, 06:22:00 AM
QUOTE(CrazyCowPie @ Feb 1 2006, 06:09 AM)
...but if you're not releasing anything, how can we benifit from this discovery? just a thought...
Don't tell us if we can't make use of it, it's just like: I got got something you don't, and you won't get it...
Doesn't make any sense....
Post by: Cookiesrus on February 01, 2006, 06:36:00 AM
After a thorough read through this thread and a quick read through XBH forum i came to the following conclusion.
Although there is TONS of data to back up the claim that the firmware was hacked and a reputable person behind the project, it is in fact nothing more than a claim until it is widely accepted as otherwise.
To look at this another way look at the more absurd side of things, UFO's. There has been many a claim made by reputable scientists, millitary personell and civillians claiming to have witnessed "flying discs", yet these claims are thrown out as lies or hearsay. On the other hand look at religeon (spelling?), since the start of recorded time people have followed religeon based on nothing more than a book that tells of one man/woman performing miracles such as turning water to wine instantly and walking on water, all of which can not be proven or recreated yet people world wide accept this as fact.
I guess its all down to each person what YOU choose to believe.
On a side note of not releasing due to ethics, if this hack was moddified in a way to function on the X360, wouldnt the very same ethics stop a release of this?
I dont pretend to understand what has gone on over at XBH forums, its WAY above my head, and way above 90% of this forums populations head.
What isnt over my head is a basic understanding of the human need to feel accepted, although it is ENTIRLEY thespecialists choice to withhold or release his software onto the wild, i bet there are 100's if not 1000's reading through XBH forums trying to recreate this firmware all it takes is 1 to pull it off and i am willing to bet we will see it floating around in the usual places in a short period of time. Untill then, no doubt there will be people posting "fake" firmwares that brick your drive, people claiming to have recreated his work and withholding it etc etc.
The xbox scene isnt the only scene i follow, and in the past 6-8 months have been a bad time for all the scenes working homebrew, take PSP for example - the drama that ensued over the iso loader than after that the drama around Yoshiro and the downgraders.
Me? i take every piece of homebrew as a gift.
As for piracy, call me ignorant but if it wernt for piracy and PS1, videogames would be no where near as widley accepted as they are today, this dosent mean i condone it though.
Anyhoo signing off!
PS, i dont mean to offend or start any kind of religous discussion, just using at as an example.
Post by: ss-virus on February 01, 2006, 08:08:00 AM
QUOTE
Re: hacking DVD firmware ?
« Reply #838 on: January 29, 2006, 12:07:24 AM »
Anyway, I did an interesting experiment on the XBOX 1. I bought a GDR8163B drive, flashed it to 8050L and started modding it. I ripped a control data block from Rally sport (yes, succeeded in patching the drive to respond with the full sector contents) and saved it to FW. I created a little mod routine that overwrites the memory where the original control block is loaded from disk (just before it's going to decrypt the responses and stuff like that) with the control block data that was saved to the FW. I then tried to unlock the drive with the unlocker -> it worked perfectly, using the challenge/responses from the FW (so I unlocked 'Amped' with the challenge/responses from 'Rally sport'. Nothing really 'shocking' of course, but it was a confirmation that my 'mod' was working
I then planted the drive in a 'virgin state' xbox 1 and booted up Amped. It worked like a charm So amped worked perfectly with the control data block from Rally sport
Now, next step will be to try to get backups running with this saved control block. The problem is that the routine I patched is only executed if original xbox DVD's are inserted into the drive (the drive probably tries to read the control block from disk, sees it isn't there and then goes unto some other routine). So I have to find the 'higher' routine, that calls this subroutine. Problem is that this is done via tables and it's a real mess to find the original caller, but will be looking into that the next few days
And there is a reply count on the pages and its not even telling if someone is removing a messages and there is 10 messeges deleted from that thread.
Post by: [email protected] on February 01, 2006, 09:05:00 AM
Now it seems the moderator is closing down every thread regarding TheSpecialists work and doesnt want to hear more of it, maybe xbhacker.net and TheSpecialist have made an agreement to sell dvd firmware hacks of some sort
For weeks now people have contributed and given of themselves to help out TheSpecialist in achieving his goal, then he suddenly makes a breakthrough and refuses to share the information. Seems pretty fucked up to me......
Anyways, thats my thoughts, i know ill get flamed shitless for it, but i dont care
Post by: jimjom on February 01, 2006, 09:11:00 AM
Post by: Lamer123 on February 01, 2006, 10:19:00 AM
Post by: jeremy_24_03 on February 01, 2006, 10:54:00 AM
Second, I just wanted to say it doesnt matter if he releases this or not. If people really want to pirate games, they can do it one way or another. The only advantage to this is being able to play backups on live.
I'm hoping that they can hack the 360's FW so I can backup my discs and play. No I DON'T pirate games and I never will. I would hate to have my hard work stolen like that. But my 360 has been scratching up my retail discs and I have had to replace 3 already. It would be really nice to be able to back them up and play them without having to worry about it.
Post by: T-Snipez on February 01, 2006, 11:07:00 AM
It appears as if they are deleting the meat of the technique and hack, I remember looking last night and noticed a post from TheSpecialist commenting on how you use a snippet from so and so's code and then some other comments that I'm not seeing today. It is highly likely that I am wrong, but it appears as if they are attempting to remove most of their progress and what used to be recommendations concerning the entire process. I should've downloaded the thread when I could...
T-Snipez
Post by: DoTsTeRX on February 01, 2006, 11:10:00 AM
you can never truly delete info posted on the internet.. it is always somewhere
Post by: ksteiner on February 01, 2006, 11:19:00 AM
Post by: mksoftware on February 01, 2006, 11:27:00 AM
QUOTE(DoTsTeRX @ Feb 1 2006, 07:17 PM)
that's what the waybackmachine and the google cache are for... etc etc
you can never truly delete info posted on the internet.. it is always somewhere
Let's find it...
There's something strange going on here!
QUOTE(ksteiner @ Feb 1 2006, 07:26 PM)
I say we start our own thread, and try to hack the firmware.
Your damn right! Let's see how the X-S sceners will do this. If one person can, thousands minds thinking together can!
Post by: ebolla on February 01, 2006, 11:53:00 AM
QUOTE(jeremy_24_03 @ Feb 1 2006, 11:01 AM)
I just wanted to make a few comments. To the people that keep saying that people will be cheating on live, how will this open up more cheating on live?? As said before, they CANNOT mod the game and play it this way, it will mess up the signature for the game. So no it won't cause any more cheating on live.
Second, I just wanted to say it doesnt matter if he releases this or not. If people really want to pirate games, they can do it one way or another. The only advantage to this is being able to play backups on live.
I'm hoping that they can hack the 360's FW so I can backup my discs and play. No I DON'T pirate games and I never will. I would hate to have my hard work stolen like that. But my 360 has been scratching up my retail discs and I have had to replace 3 already. It would be really nice to be able to back them up and play them without having to worry about it.
If I am not mistaken in regards to people cheating on Halo 2 Bungie said something about they now do a checksum of the maps as they are loaded and if they are modified they will ban the person shortly.
As far as other games I don't know. I can't remember where I saw that about the Halo 2 though or I would provide a link to it.
So yes while you could modifiy the game data (just not the XBE or with the 360 I would assume the XEX) if other companies and/or MS start implementing that on a wide scale like Bungie did then it would get squashed very quickly.
Post by: Maertz on February 01, 2006, 12:13:00 PM
Post by: mksoftware on February 01, 2006, 12:17:00 PM
QUOTE(Maertz @ Feb 1 2006, 08:20 PM)
im glad they didnt release it we can do enough already. and live is already shitty.
That's your opinion, propably about 80% wants it!
Post by: throwingks on February 01, 2006, 12:48:00 PM
QUOTE(jeremy_24_03 @ Feb 1 2006, 11:01 AM)
I just wanted to make a few comments. To the people that keep saying that people will be cheating on live, how will this open up more cheating on live?? As said before, they CANNOT mod the game and play it this way, it will mess up the signature for the game. So no it won't cause any more cheating on live.
Wrong. Only the XBE is signed not the ini files. Kind of how they changed things in the King Kong demo.
Post by: DoTsTeRX on February 01, 2006, 12:51:00 PM
like 4 posts got deleted from this thread in the past hour... nice to know you can't say anything useful here without it getting edited or deleted
like 4 posts got deleted from this thread in the past hour... nice to know you can't say anything useful here without it getting edited or deleted
Post by: mksoftware on February 01, 2006, 01:00:00 PM
QUOTE(throwingks @ Feb 1 2006, 08:55 PM)
Wrong. Only the XBE is signed not the ini files. Kind of how they changed things in the King Kong demo.
Wrong, they used to put more signatures on the disc, but as you know this Kiosk disc doesn't have them (that's why it loads). So comparing the King Kong demo is quite confusing and wrong information.
Post by: jfoster on February 01, 2006, 02:33:00 PM
By NOT releasing this, he and his friends will actually get to benefit from his work for a long time...as opposed to everyone modding their machines at once, just to get banned by MS.
I would like to have this mod as well, but releasing it to the public would simply kill it's longevity.
Post by: TheSpecialist on February 01, 2006, 02:54:00 PM
QUOTE
I didn't intend to comment on any of this until I read this post. None of us really deserve to complain about anything until we, ourselves, have contributed to the xbox community. Doing so makes us hypocrites. And just to clarify what this person is saying... The person who did perform this hack did not announce anything on this website as you claim. It came from a thread on xboxhacker.net and was announced on here by moderators of this website. You also claim this person to be 'ignorant'. Ignorant of what might I ask? Until you or any of us are able to contribute to the community, I suggest we merely thank those who do know what they are doing as none of us do. I would also wish the board moderators to consider closing this topic as it's become quite skewed from it's origination.
I'm glad to see that there are some people with brains left here. I did countless hours of hard work. I presented the scene with a major flaw in xbox/360 security and all *some* people can do is whine about the fact that I don't present it to them on a plate. Let me tell you a little story that might increase your understanding about hackers.
When I was a little boy I sometimes went out fishing with my granddad. He was much better at it than I was. Whenever he catched a fish he'd always throw it back. I just could not understand it and it somehow even frustrated me. Now I understand him. He wasn't interested in eating the fish, it was the fishing *process* he loved so much. It's exactly the same for us hackers. We are interested in security, in finding flaws. Not in 'eating the fish'.
I did a lot of thinking the last 2 days. I now realize that there's more to it. Your work has consequences, whether you like it or not. And I don't like the consequences at all. I think a hack like this is really Pandora's box. How much some of you want it, it will bring more bad things than goods things.
Thanks to all who agree on my decision and respect what I did. I realize now that it's very well possible that there are people out there who don't share my beliefs and want to use the research I did to create a hack for the 360. All I can do is ask you to *really* think about the consequences and whether you are *really* willing to accept them. I hope you will be mature enough to do this.
That's all I have to say and this will be my first and last post in this thread.
TS
Post by: mksoftware on February 01, 2006, 03:02:00 PM
QUOTE(TheSpecialist @ Feb 1 2006, 11:01 PM)
I'm glad to see that there are some people with brains left here. I did countless hours of hard work. I presented the scene with a major flaw in xbox/360 security and all people can do is whine about the fact that I don't present it to them on a plate. Let me tell you a little story that might increase your understanding about hackers.
When I was a little boy I sometimes went out fishing with my granddad. He was much better at it than I was. Whenever he catched a fish he'd always throw it back. I just could not understand it and it somehow even frustrated me. Now I understand him. He wasn't interested in eating the fish, it was the fishing *process* he loved so much. It's exactly the same for us hackers. We are interested in security, in finding flaws. Not in 'eating the fish'.
I did a lot of thinking the last 2 days. I now realize that there's more to it. Your work has consequences, whether you like it or not. And I don't like the consequences at all. I think a hack like this is really Pandora's box. How much some of you want it, it will bring more bad things than goods things.
Thanks to all who agree on my decision and respect what I did. I realize now that it's very well possible that there are probably people out there who don't share my beliefs and want to use the research I did to create a hack for the 360. All I can do is ask you to think *really* think about the consequences and if you are *really* willing to accept them. I hope you will be mature enough to do this.
That's all I have to say and this will be my first and last post in this thread.
TS
Creating a mod for the Xbox 360 and selling your hack to a modchip team will let you make money. Of course, I believe your decision. But if you have no intention of releasing this, there is no intention of posting it on the forums, you could have thought about that! I believe your discovery is true, but you shouldn't wrote about it if you won't be releasing it....
It's like: hey, I got my PS3 game running on my Xbox 360, but I won't release it
I really think it's fantastic what you have found, but nobody can really use it, which makes your work useless.
Post by: ss-virus on February 01, 2006, 03:15:00 PM
QUOTE(TheSpecialist @ Feb 1 2006, 11:01 PM)
I'm glad to see that there are some people with brains left here. I did countless hours of hard work. I presented the scene with a major flaw in xbox/360 security and all people can do is whine about the fact that I don't present it to them on a plate. Let me tell you a little story that might increase your understanding about hackers.
When I was a little boy I sometimes went out fishing with my granddad. He was much better at it than I was. Whenever he catched a fish he'd always throw it back. I just could not understand it and it somehow even frustrated me. Now I understand him. He wasn't interested in eating the fish, it was the fishing *process* he loved so much. It's exactly the same for us hackers. We are interested in security, in finding flaws. Not in 'eating the fish'.
TS
So why not take that one with snow white or something… with a less BS
Post by: whitemagician on February 01, 2006, 03:16:00 PM
Thank you for your efforts and letting us know that it is possible.
William
Post by: MacDennis on February 01, 2006, 03:34:00 PM
QUOTE(mksoftware @ Feb 1 2006, 11:09 PM)
Creating a mod for the Xbox 360 and selling your hack to a modchip team will let you make money.
True, but only a real hacker does not have any commercial interests.
QUOTE(mksoftware @ Feb 1 2006, 11:09 PM)
Of course, I believe your decision. But if you have no intention of releasing this, there is no intention of posting it on the forums, you could have thought about that!
Did you actually read the 43 pages long firmware hacking thread? He has never stated that he was going to 'release' anything. He has shared his progress in the last 2 months with the whole community. A lot of interesting information was 'released'. The final hack is part of this progress and again, this information was also 'released'. What did you want him to do? Him to completely shut up about his work and progress?
QUOTE(mksoftware @ Feb 1 2006, 11:09 PM)
I believe your discovery is true, but you shouldn't wrote about it if you won't be releasing it....
The fact that this is even possible is a very interesting discovery in itself. Give me one good reason why he should realise it. I haven't seen one good reason yet.
QUOTE(mksoftware @ Feb 1 2006, 11:09 PM)
It's like: hey, I got my PS3 game running on my Xbox 360, but I won't release it
So what? You start to sound like a cry baby now, like many other people in this thread. First, the firmware is copyright protected material. Second, all the information to do it yourself can be found in the thread. If you can't understand a thing what is being said there, well, that's your problem. Read, learn and come back later to try again. At least there's now a reason to try it yourself. After 4 years finally someone proved in less than 2 months that it can be done!
QUOTE(mksoftware @ Feb 1 2006, 11:09 PM)
I really think it's fantastic what you have found, but nobody can really use it, which makes your work useless.
That's your opinion. Everyone is free to express his opinion.
Post by: cONEction on February 01, 2006, 03:54:00 PM
QUOTE(TheSpecialist @ Feb 1 2006, 11:01 PM)
I'm glad to see that there are some people with brains left here. I did countless hours of hard work. I presented the scene with a major flaw in xbox/360 security and all *some* people can do is whine about the fact that I don't present it to them on a plate. Let me tell you a little story that might increase your understanding about hackers.
When I was a little boy I sometimes went out fishing with my granddad. He was much better at it than I was. Whenever he catched a fish he'd always throw it back. I just could not understand it and it somehow even frustrated me. Now I understand him. He wasn't interested in eating the fish, it was the fishing *process* he loved so much. It's exactly the same for us hackers. We are interested in security, in finding flaws. Not in 'eating the fish'.
I did a lot of thinking the last 2 days. I now realize that there's more to it. Your work has consequences, whether you like it or not. And I don't like the consequences at all. I think a hack like this is really Pandora's box. How much some of you want it, it will bring more bad things than goods things.
Thanks to all who agree on my decision and respect what I did. I realize now that it's very well possible that there are people out there who don't share my beliefs and want to use the research I did to create a hack for the 360. All I can do is ask you to *really* think about the consequences and whether you are *really* willing to accept them. I hope you will be mature enough to do this.
That's all I have to say and this will be my first and last post in this thread.
TS
Are you from the Netherlands, if so , you make me proud
Btw, I think we got 2 kinds of persons in this world, the ones that like eating the fish and others who like the process, I for sure am a fisheater, if I was able to do such hack, I have sold my work already and made big $$ , why would I care about the consequences? as long as it makes me rich
I just forgot about the kind of persons that like killing the fish
Post by: TKramka on February 01, 2006, 04:18:00 PM
EDIT: Removed although comment...
Post by: whitemagician on February 01, 2006, 05:05:00 PM
QUOTE(doubljdog @ Feb 2 2006, 01:06 AM)
Yeah, just wait, we'll see this guy open up a little business of selling replacement dvd drives that can play backups on live without modding it, selfish bastards
Someone smart enough to be the first known person to hack the firmware would not be stupid enough to be taken down for all that he has just to sell a few dvd drives. Of course smarter people have done stupider things.
Post by: swolsten on February 01, 2006, 05:20:00 PM
Now if all you flamers put some time into working out how to do that instead of slagging off someone that has contrubuted something towards the scene you may just stumble on a way to do it.
Data sheets and firmware images are all in the PD so get to work.
And please register www.IAmNotJustAFlamerButIAlsoHelpPeople.com and host it there. btw, good look with M$ and the rest of your life if you do host it.
Post by: hippo on February 01, 2006, 05:34:00 PM
To TS I'd say congrats and enjoy your jackpot. One guy working alone can make a dent in things and sitting this in the background for use at a later project sounds like proper planning. Enjoy your time to shine you deserve it all and stay true to your principles.
Post by: icantstandtoburntolong on February 01, 2006, 05:38:00 PM
oh, Btw can I use my xbox controller on my 360 LOL !!!!!11111oneone
Post by: RX3 on February 01, 2006, 06:18:00 PM
I really hope other hackers see this thread and decide "f that. I'm not gonna hack anything for these crybabies." Then the Xbox 360 will never be hacked.
Post by: majik655 on February 01, 2006, 06:35:00 PM
I understand the issues with releasing such a thing, I also know you were or had to have thought about it many times before you finished the hack, so to say you slept on it in my opinion is BS.
If one did it... then soon someone else will do it also. Especially when alot of the work was public.
now .. when the hack is done, and I am sure it will be. What makes you think M$ will not come to you anyway thinking you are involved or HAVE been involved in some sort of way in the hack....especially since you have come on publicly and basically ratted on yourself for NOTHING. You state YOU DID IT.. lol well you should have made some $$ when YOU DID it. (unless you are
)At least you also publicly stated why you would not release it, hopefully M$ will believe that when the hack becomes available.
Post by: DoTsTeRX on February 01, 2006, 06:47:00 PM
This thread is all part of that conspiracy.
Post by: whitemagician on February 01, 2006, 06:57:00 PM
QUOTE(doubljdog @ Feb 2 2006, 02:52 AM)
How is not sharing the knowledge considered a contribution to the scene, sure he figured out how to do it, but he hasn't contributed shit, he just told us he knows how to do it
There was two months of work on the other forums with posting of progress thats how he contributed its not like he came out of the blue and said he did it there was alot of work done and information gathered now I didnt follow that work but if you even bothered to look through the rest of this thread you would know that.
Also the fact that we now know that it is possible other people will try and therefore someone else will do it so all those people who just want to "stick it to the man" can download your games and mess up Live for the rest of us.
Post by: blame canada on February 01, 2006, 06:59:00 PM
). Besides that, I can't wait to see a tut and/or proof .
Post by: TKramka on February 01, 2006, 07:26:00 PM
Post by: DoTsTeRX on February 01, 2006, 07:28:00 PM
QUOTE(cybertlcworld @ Feb 1 2006, 09:29 PM)
What a joke. "I figured out how to hack the firmware, yet I'm not going to tell anyone how because it may hurt Live." Get real. Like softmods haven't hurt live? You don't think they'll find a way to stop the firmware hack from going on Live if you release it?
There are a lot of groups that hack firmware (Dangerous Brothers for example) for DVD drives on the PC side. Someone should try to contact them and see what they think.........they're GENIUSES in that field.
Very Well Said... I said something similar earlier today but they deleted my post.
Post by: Lizotte on February 01, 2006, 07:50:00 PM
QUOTE(cybertlcworld @ Feb 2 2006, 02:40 AM)
Well isn't that a shitter. But seriously, you can't tell me that all the companies and individuals that have a hand in XBOX modchips, hacking, softmods, etc. have NO IDEA about how to hack a firmware. The Dangerous Brothers aren't some rare anomoly. I'm highly surprised that it's taken THIS long for firmware hacks to even come to light as a working possibility.
From what i've seen all along the strongest and best people in the xbox scene have not been concerned with running backups so much as running homebrew. The original xbox (and now the 360, and all consoles during at least their first year or two) are sold for less than the cost of the components. That isn't true of any other electronics hardware. So being able to run apps "ad hoc" or run homebrew gives you a really high powered computer for a really low cost.
Since the only use for a DVD firmware mod is running backups it also is a LOT harder (if not completely impossible) to defend it in a court case related to the DMCA, since its only use is circumventing protection on copyrighted material. Thats where xbox modchips by themselves have managed to survive - there is the fair use piece for the hardware, allowing you to run applications/operating systems that aren't "sanctioned" by MS. Thats also why most xbox modchips either ship blank or with a Cromwell based bios on them, as neither of those choices allows you to run backups by itself.
Also, since MS controls the hardware 100%, it is possible for them to require that developers include code (to gain Xbox certification) that were to check for specific checksums or MD5 hashes of the DVD drive firmware or update the xbox dash to do so, that would negate the firmware hack anyway.
The really interesting part of that is that since the 360 has the 16 byte machine unique key in the dvd firmware, its shouldn't be possible for MS to use a similar mechanism (the MD5 hash or CRC) to ban machines via live, as each machine would have its own unique CRC/hash result.
But again, since the Digital Millenium Copyright Act would definitely allow MS to close up and seriously drop a hammer on anyone releasing a DVD firmware mod like this into the wild I don't think anyone who has the ability + skill to do it will risk releasing it.
Post by: bourke on February 01, 2006, 08:02:00 PM
QUOTE(DoTsTeRX @ Feb 2 2006, 03:35 AM)
Very Well Said... I said something similar earlier today but they deleted my post.
You two are both either illiterate or ill-educated - the Specialist and other hackers (ones in that thread) already sought advice from the Dangerous Bros months ago!
This just adds to how stupid you both look, and that is one pretty huge achievement in itself LOL!
BourkieTM
Post by: tomgreen99200 on February 01, 2006, 08:16:00 PM
Post by: bourke on February 01, 2006, 08:29:00 PM
QUOTE(DoTsTeRX @ Feb 2 2006, 04:27 AM)
bourke, you stupid bastard..
I didn't say anything about the Dangerous Bros. I was agreeing with the 1st part of his post.
Mods please ban this child for his attempted insults.
Why did you quote the second part if you now don't agree with it LOL!
Post by: Australian Rat on February 01, 2006, 08:33:00 PM
Post by: ihavegaintballs on February 01, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
So it goes to reason that not releasing this is a very good thing for the scene.
This cant do anything you can’t do better with a chip/tsop/softmod.
It’s just like angerwound with fuckms he saved a lot of headache and did the right thing.
I say if this were released ms would cause us a lot of problems.
And to the ones who want to flame me for this it just show how uninformed you
pirate kiddie’s are.
Post by: bourke on February 01, 2006, 08:58:00 PM
QUOTE(cybertlcworld @ Feb 2 2006, 04:23 AM)
And with all the people in the scene, hardware, software, etc.........a nobody figured out the firmware hack. Right.
Get real idiot. So since I didn't take time to read that thread, I'm ill educated? You added nothing to this post at all. At least we gave reasons as to why it seems like a CROCK.........you contributed NO-THING.
No i said you were either _illiterate_ or ill-educated so you are now confirming the implication that you are illiterate LOL!
And for the record I was the one that pointed out the the Dangerous Bros had been contacted already, many times, and long in the past - so it is you that is the hypocrite once again!
Mods please ban this (self-confessed) illiterate child for its rudeness.
Obviously the ignorant fools running rife in this thread will be the ones with eggs on their faces when this mod emerges within weeks.
Do you not realise that thousands of people have modified their LG 8163B and LG 8050 drives to play orginal games and CDRs since May 2005?!
if you don't, and you are one of the flamers here, then you ARE an ignorant troll.
Cheers,
Bourkie
Post by: blame canada on February 01, 2006, 09:01:00 PM
Post by: ihavegaintballs on February 01, 2006, 09:03:00 PM
QUOTE
you guys made me do it...........
Yay I can fly.
Post by: DoTsTeRX on February 01, 2006, 09:04:00 PM
Post by: blame canada on February 01, 2006, 09:07:00 PM
btw, This thread needs to be closed or cleaned IMO
Post by: ihavegaintballs on February 01, 2006, 09:10:00 PM
QUOTE
btw, This thread needs to be closed or cleaned IMO
Well it does keep the moron's in one place that's got to count for something.
Post by: Chancer on February 02, 2006, 02:02:00 AM
Has it made a difference no. despite making many posts invisible this has carried on.
Thread closed.
The person who decides to make another one to re-open this argument and for the sole purpose of creating another personal flame war can expect a suspension.
I am amazed that everyone feels the need to hurl abuse directed personally at other members.
It is possible to have a structured difference in opinion without being personally abusive.
If Admin feel this should be re-opened then they will do so.