Post by: xboxhaxorz on June 09, 2011, 04:15:00 PM
The chances of me repairing them when they have been worked on previously reduces greatly. The last 2 i got in where bolt modded with washers and such. Flowing them did not work, so i proceeded to lift the chip to ball em. After lifting several pads were missing. Both boards pads lifted, even though i had a clean lift.
The cause is warpage by using bolt mods. Sometimes chips are dead, because of too much heat with heat guns.
Now dont get me wrong, some people get their consoles to work with these x clamp mods. The reason they work is because they apply pressure on the chip so that it makes better contact with the board. However this is FORCED contact and causes warpage over time.
The faults with heatgunning lie with inconsistency in temperatures, uneven heating or too much heat. However i know some who do great with work with the heat guns, of course they ruined quite a few boards learning but eventually they figured out how high and how long to heat it up.
Those who actually properly repair consoles have spend a few hundred to a few thousand on the PROPER equipment. We have excellent success rates and rarely experiences failures unless of course we receive previously worked on consoles.
There are several different x clamp methods. The hybrid being the most talked about. I am sure some of them work really well. But the actual cause is not being fixed, its merely being covered up.
Think of duct taping a leaking pipe vs welding it. The duct tape will work but obviously a clean weld is the best or even replacing the pipe.
Regarding x clamps after a reflow or reball. A lot of techs do this to keep the repair lasting, but proper spacing and washer size comes into play. Not every washer is the same. Some might be .2mm off, others .05mm off. This does make a difference however, either not enough pressure is applied or too much pressure is applied to the chip. I personally do not use x clamps after my repair.
I do however turn the fans on high. Apply fresh thermal compound and tell the customer to keep it cool as possible.
Some may agree some may disagree. But to each his own, i just wanted to inform you all of my experiences in repairing consoles.
Post by: Luizz on June 09, 2011, 06:59:00 PM
the air coming from behind is a bit hotter but i think its the as5 doing the job.so i think you are the right guy to answer my question lol
i added one washer on top of each of the 4 ram chips but those 2 beneath the gpu heatsink i didn't add thermal paste to it, so the washer is touching the heatsick directly! the heat coming from the ram chip is being transferred to the heatsink or its being held 'cause theres no thermal paste in between to be found?
tks a lot man!
ps. i already got answered around here but i want another opinion on the matter if you please
This post has been edited by Luizz: Jun 10 2011, 02:09 AM
Post by: digipimp75 on June 09, 2011, 07:17:00 PM
Post by: Scrufdog on June 09, 2011, 07:23:00 PM
I've gotten so particular with it that I use a digital caliber to measure the thickness of my washers. I then file burrs down and smooth things out to achieve anywhere from 2.00 to 2.02mm thickness. I used to use 1.6mm thich nylon washers until I noticed how much they flex the mobo.
Post by: xboxhaxorz on June 09, 2011, 07:48:00 PM
QUOTE(Luizz @ Jun 9 2011, 08:59 PM) 
i added one washer on top of each of the 4 ram chips but those 2 beneath the gpu heatsink i didn't add thermal paste to it, so the washer is touching the heatsick directly! the heat coming from the ram chip is being transferred to the heatsink or its being held 'cause theres no thermal paste in between to be found?
tks a lot man!
ps. i already got answered around here but i want another opinion on the matter if you please
all thermal compound does is fill the gap between the chip and the heatsink. you notice if you put a big glop on the chip and use it for a while and remove the heatsink all the excess is on the side of the die.
regarding the ram and washer its definitely transferring heat to the heatsink. putting thermal compound may slightly reduce temps a few degrees.
Post by: MadMaxGR on June 10, 2011, 05:57:00 AM
Post by: relaxxx on June 10, 2011, 06:32:00 AM
Post by: wyldstallions on June 10, 2011, 07:11:00 AM
There are 3 main problems involved with the fail and the original xclamps aren't it.
1. is that the chassis stand off points in the middle of the board board are typically too high. If you strip the xbox down, remove the fans leaving the pcb screwed down look in the back through the fan hole, you will normally find that the board is forced to bow upwards in the middle by the excess height of these points.
This places the pcb and solder joints under tension. Coupled with the 2. high heat and 3. lead free solder. The high temperatures and many heating cooling cycles eventually lead to the lead free solder becoming brittle, with the tension in the board eventually a joint cracks or breaks and the console becomes faulty.
The pcb is too thin to be used to apply any kind of tension on the heatsinks, any over tightening will simply distort it more. The clamps fit to the pegs and don't place any pressure on the pcb, and they are only there to hold the heatsinks in place.
The various xclamp replacements use parts that wont fit correctly in the chassis or can apply uneven and excessive pressures. While they may "fix" the problem in the short term the increased distortions and continued heating / cooling periods will eventually lead to other or worse failures.
The best way is avoid failures is fix any one of the 3 issues above, the worst thing to do is use a load of bits from the hardware store to try and fix em.
Post by: xboxhaxorz on June 11, 2011, 12:20:00 AM
if they go about using the digital caliper to get exact measurement that is definitely better, time consuming but better. however it still wont fix the problem, just cover it up.
Post by: savov on June 11, 2011, 06:43:00 AM
Post by: israel14 on June 11, 2011, 03:07:00 PM
QUOTE(savov @ Jun 11 2011, 01:43 PM)
Well, a friend of mine gave me his rroded console (dated from 2007). Using a smt installation unit I carefully heated up the gpu and then I installed the heatsink with ceramique thermal compound (didnt have any AS5 left). I removed the xcmaps and used small screws with a 2mm washers between the heatsink and the motherboard. Then I added a 60mm fan to the second gpu heatsink and forced all the fans to work at 8v. Its been more then a mount now and the console is still working. Its my first atempt to repair 360 and I will ask for some suggestions to what I can improve, like washers size, distance from the mobo to heatsink etc.
Remove those screws and washers and put the xclamps back on without the small black t8 screws. Without the xclamps on ur xbox is gonna end up breaking way quicker than with them on. Screws and washers will give unbalanced pressure on the chips, thats not what u want. The original xclamps will give equal and balanced pressure on chips and good contact with heatsink. Just dont put the black screws back in and make sure xclamps dont touch metal cage. The metal cage is unbalanced and screwing it on with xclamps will put unbalanced pressure on chips.
Ive always followed relaxxx's ideas and have had better results with them than others. Thanks relaxxx for finding this useful information. The xclamp fix is worst fix for the xbox and will only make things worse in the future.
Post by: xboxhaxorz on June 12, 2011, 04:48:00 PM
Post by: Luizz on June 13, 2011, 04:25:00 AM
So, regarding all this debate x clamps vs. screws and washers, i have removed them 'cause they were a bad thing to the board, now they're fine and better than what most modders claim to be one of the best mods we could actually do to our 360?
So, i'm a bit confused
Post by: savov on June 13, 2011, 04:54:00 AM
QUOTE(israel14 @ Jun 12 2011, 12:07 AM)
Remove those screws and washers and put the xclamps back on without the small black t8 screws. Without the xclamps on ur xbox is gonna end up breaking way quicker than with them on. Screws and washers will give unbalanced pressure on the chips, thats not what u want. The original xclamps will give equal and balanced pressure on chips and good contact with heatsink. Just dont put the black screws back in and make sure xclamps dont touch metal cage. The metal cage is unbalanced and screwing it on with xclamps will put unbalanced pressure on chips.
Ive always followed relaxxx's ideas and have had better results with them than others. Thanks relaxxx for finding this useful information. The xclamp fix is worst fix for the xbox and will only make things worse in the future.
Hmm, I cant recall of any black t8 screws on the xclamps...
Isnt this what the washers are for - evening the presure on all 4 sides? With that said, I didnt screw the screws all the way, so there isnt that much presure anyway. If you can give me some measurements between the heatsink and the board, I will be really thankful.
QUOTE(xboxhaxorz @ Jun 13 2011, 01:48 AM)
are you sure about 8v?
Yes, I used a L7808CV on the 12v rail to power the fans with 8v.
Post by: israel14 on June 14, 2011, 01:27:00 AM
But if a 360 is fixed it doesnt really matter since its gonna break again anyways no matter what. Proffesionaly reflowed 360s will last a little but they WILL end up broken. A reball is the best fix but most expensive. Ive seen reballed 360s fail again, but that mostly depends on the reballer's work and skills.
Every single 360 and ps3 will break. The only way to prevent that is to
1. get a proffesional reball
2. provide good cooling to console= fanspeed,shroud mod,as5.
3. remove board flexing. ie- sand down standoffs on xenon metal cages. Remove black screws which hold xclamps onto metal cage and make sure xclamps dont touch metal cage.
So yea...
DONT REPLACE XCLAMPS!
This post has been edited by israel14: Jun 14 2011, 08:32 AM
Post by: wyldstallions on June 14, 2011, 04:15:00 PM
Also having done various tests on jtag systems where the temp readings are easily obtained I have found little effective mods to substantially reduce temperature.
Certainly the variations of the fan shroud mod actually seem to increase temperatures.
Above 80% the rear fans also don't really change temps more than just a few degrees. The best and cheapest cooling mod I've found is to cut the cage open on the right side and fit another set of rear fans in there, pushing cold air in, wired up to usb so they can draw power from the xbox or external source.
With a bit of fiddling they look almost stock, give a nice temp drop and don't increase the noise levels abouve the rear fans. Talismoons look even better...
A full lead solder reball is the only way to go, and these days is quite cheap.
If they die, save yourself the time and aggro of pissing about with half arsed fixes.
Reflows, xclamp replacement all of em will only last so long, maybe a few months maybe a year or more if your lucky, but one day you'll be looking at another set of red lights.