Post by: Xbox-Scene on March 08, 2010, 02:52:00 PM
You could design the next revision of the 360 motherboard Posted by XanTium | March 8 16:52 EST | News Category: Xbox360 |
| From joystiq.com: Quote
Full Story: joystiq.com | careers.microsoft.com |
Post by: tomgreen99200 on March 08, 2010, 02:55:00 PM
Post by: BinkY_BMF on March 08, 2010, 02:56:00 PM
Post by: wassco on March 08, 2010, 03:06:00 PM
Post by: FrostyTheSnowman on March 08, 2010, 03:27:00 PM
Post by: radoman on March 08, 2010, 03:40:00 PM
Combine the gpu and cpu onto one chip. Move it out from under the dvdrom and put a decent heatsink and fan ontop of it.
Am I hired?
Post by: bucko on March 08, 2010, 03:54:00 PM
Post by: vb_encryption_vb on March 08, 2010, 04:00:00 PM
QUOTE(radoman @ Mar 8 2010, 05:40 PM) 
Easy...
Combine the gpu and cpu onto one chip. Move it out from under the dvdrom and put a decent heatsink and fan ontop of it.
Am I hired?
Lol pretty much summed that one up..
QUOTE(bucko @ Mar 8 2010, 05:54 PM)
I wonder if the old one got fired
+1
Post by: dokworm on March 08, 2010, 04:21:00 PM
QUOTE(radoman @ Mar 8 2010, 11:40 PM) 
Easy...
Combine the gpu and cpu onto one chip. Move it out from under the dvdrom and put a decent heatsink and fan ontop of it.
Am I hired?
Sure, post a tape-out of the new chip design, and a re-route of all the connections to the separate chips, make it cost effective, and you're hired. Easy.
So if they are hiring now, then that means a new mboard revision is what, 12 months away?
Anyone thinking there will be a 'slim' it would mean ditching the tray load DVD-ROM drive if you wanted the 360 to get much slimmer than it is now. The motherboard isn't that heavily populated or all that large now, it is heatsinks, fans and the DVD-ROM drive that take up most of the real-estate.
Post by: TMownsu on March 08, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
Post by: juggahax0r on March 08, 2010, 04:34:00 PM
Post by: saint24 on March 08, 2010, 04:44:00 PM
Post by: opiate81 on March 08, 2010, 04:57:00 PM
Post by: Jerry1Gman on March 08, 2010, 04:59:00 PM
QUOTE(juggahax0r @ Mar 8 2010, 06:34 PM)
Did anyone actually click the link to the MS website because it isn't their.
This link should work;
https://careers.micr...s...69&jlang=EN
If it doesn't, it is Job ID: 714897.
Post by: pinkerton on March 08, 2010, 05:08:00 PM
Post by: juggahax0r on March 08, 2010, 05:44:00 PM
Post by: garyopa on March 08, 2010, 07:13:00 PM
QUOTE(juggahax0r @ Mar 8 2010, 07:44 PM)
Thanks for the job Id. I seriously doubt anyone on XS has a bs/ms in electrical engineering. If they do send in your resume , make us a better board , and be sure to leave a back door for homebrewage.
I do have a BS in EE, plus a few other degrees to my name, but working for M$ sucks, pay levels are low, and you only get to work on small section of any project. -- In fact my company has hired people away from M$ over the last few years. -- I would never think of lowering myself, or closing up my own company, to work with such crap at the "xbox 360". -- I even throw job offers from Sony in my trashcan. -- Being your own boss is the best, even if the pay levels varys from year to year due to the up and downs of the every changing marketplace. -- I wish the best of luck to those that do decide to apply for this job.
Post by: Paperstack.1 on March 08, 2010, 07:35:00 PM
QUOTE(saint24 @ Mar 8 2010, 05:44 PM)
should give the job to rdc
^this
Post by: Code-Red on March 08, 2010, 09:51:00 PM
QUOTE(radoman @ Mar 8 2010, 06:40 PM)
Easy...
Combine the gpu and cpu onto one chip. Move it out from under the dvdrom and put a decent heatsink and fan ontop of it.
Am I hired?
The Xenon processor is PPC. To date, IBM has not released a CP/GPU chip (not unlike the new 32nm 1156's). Not only that, but on-die graphics suck. That cancels that idea.
I doubt there can would sweeping changes like that anyways, MS and Sony are just now breaking profit on each system, no? My ideas though:
- 40/45nm CPU/GPU
- Slot feed slim DVD player
- Two large ducted heatsinks (or two GPU heatsinks from Jasper)
- Larger fans that push more air with less CFM (less noise)
Post by: Mr.RedRing on March 08, 2010, 11:19:00 PM
QUOTE(saint24 @ Mar 8 2010, 06:44 PM)
should give the job to rdc
First person I thought of when reading this post
Post by: FoxRacR17 on March 08, 2010, 11:39:00 PM
Post by: Martinchris23 on March 09, 2010, 01:20:00 AM
QUOTE(TMownsu @ Mar 8 2010, 11:27 PM)
Please perform the proper testing during the EU phase. Waiting for the retail customer to figure out what is wrong with the design is not a good business model.
Why not? It's what they do with their software!
QUOTE
I would be happy if they just subbed it out to MSI or Asus...
Actually a very good suggestion.
QUOTE(FoxRacR17 @ Mar 9 2010, 06:39 AM)
First order of business: Get rid of xclamps, and put in team hybrids ultimate clamp fix
There's actually nothing wrong with the X-Clamps, provided the black screws are firmly in place as they hold the CPU/GPU area level. The boards warping are due to extremely cheap and flimsy PCBs. Look at the PS2 motherboard and how sturdy it is by comparison.
Post by: iD4rK on March 09, 2010, 02:59:00 AM
Something useful to add is to use 1 extraction turbine instead of 2 fans, turbines are more efficient.
And even if it only was a rumor, that fans suck. The casing could have better airflow as well.
For the noobs = Turbines is what the high end graphic cards use. Ex. Geforce 8800 GTX (old but high end).
Greets
Post by: kiwimods on March 09, 2010, 04:20:00 AM
Every one play dumb.
This xenon board can be " properly repaired" and still go strong for a very long time if the fan speed is increased. so maybe they should start from there.
I like apples.
Post by: relaxxx on March 09, 2010, 05:31:00 AM
QUOTE(saint24 @ Mar 8 2010, 07:44 PM)
should give the job to rdc
I'd have to strongly disagree with that one after seeing how fast he dismissed my findings and swept my thread under the carpet.
Too much invested here on temporary fixes.
Post by: MadMaxGR on March 09, 2010, 05:54:00 AM
QUOTE(relaxxx @ Mar 9 2010, 02:31 PM)
I'd have to strongly disagree with that one after seeing how fast he dismissed my findings and swept my thread under the carpet.
Too much invested here on temporary fixes.
Because RDC argued with you for a solution that many of us might think is overstimated and others understimated, that doesn't give you the right to "kick" him. Some respect man! He is a genius and helped many people here. You are new (edit: and a kiddo) .. you will learn....
P.S. If you want to go for a debate about your proposed solution, create a proper tutorial and put real data in your profile and come on the "ring" to "punch" with valid claims, not aerology and fixed schematics to stand up your sayings.
Post by: omega232 on March 09, 2010, 06:10:00 AM
QUOTE(MadMaxGR @ Mar 9 2010, 02:54 PM)
You are new (edit: and a kiddo) .. you will learn....
He's been a member here for longer than you.
Post by: MadMaxGR on March 09, 2010, 06:17:00 AM
QUOTE(omega232 @ Mar 9 2010, 03:10 PM)
He's been a member here for longer than you.
Are we talking about an active member? 140 posts don't seem like this. This make worse his position, he should know better what RDC has offered to all of us in here!
P.S. I was active since 06 but I had to change account (other nick) since a problem occured when the forum was heavily updated couple years ago.
Post by: pinkerton on March 09, 2010, 07:13:00 AM
Post by: relaxxx on March 09, 2010, 08:50:00 AM
QUOTE(MadMaxGR @ Mar 9 2010, 09:17 AM)
Are we talking about an active member? 140 posts don't seem like this. This make worse his position, he should know better what RDC has offered to all of us in here!
For what it's worth my conclusion was 3 years in the making and involved observations of hundreds of consoles... but whatever.
Post by: pinkerton on March 09, 2010, 12:13:00 PM
QUOTE(wassco @ Mar 9 2010, 05:51 PM)
Get back on topic plz, and when you start the *stop being a child* it doesnt matter how many posts you've made, how old you are, or what you've done. you automatically put yourself in the same class as those your insulting. Cuzz in the end your no better then them.
end result, 360 needs a new polish, cuzz things arent goen to well for M$ i think, they need a fresh look, like the other guys did..
look how well there sales increased...(they did dont argue this plz)
now... board changes... back on topic... here we go...
Post by: relaxxx on March 09, 2010, 12:54:00 PM
QUOTE(wassco @ Mar 9 2010, 01:51 PM)
now... board changes... back on topic... here we go...
I agree, someone mentioned having the CPU/GPU both on one chip on the right side. That would be a good starting point idea, at lest have both processors off to the right as it's probably not feasible to have all CPU, GPU and EDRAM on one substrate but they may be able to at least share the same heatsink provided MS can design and mount it properly.
Also Heatsink fins should be accessible to users through some sort of access lid/door so they can clean the lint off the things. This issue is killing PS3 as well. You should not have to void your warranty to keep it running cool.
Post by: ccfman2004 on March 09, 2010, 09:10:00 PM
I also want to see them put the CPU and GPU on one chip with minimum of a 45nm process or smaller.
Post by: hamwbone on March 09, 2010, 10:00:00 PM
Post by: 1nick9 on March 10, 2010, 12:52:00 AM
"well im stumped.... 65nm dnt fix it"
"wat do we do now then??"
"i dunno.... out source it??"
"NO we must not giv credit were its due... just hire a fresh smart uni kid n steal his 6months of hard work fixin our fuck ups, as our own"
"perfect... i will put the ad up"
Post by: juggahax0r on March 10, 2010, 11:39:00 AM
Sorry to the guy who replied to me about having a Ph.D and all that , someone with a BS might be happy with they pay MS gives them for that job. But let;s face it most kids on here do not have any clue what they are talking aboot.
Post by: ccfman2004 on March 10, 2010, 03:04:00 PM
QUOTE( @ Mar 10 2010, 01:43 PM)
u guys realize all they would have to do to fix rrod/e74/the rest of the TYPICAL errors with the current setup is, FIX THE METAL CAGE!!! ADD PROPER STANDOFFS! and make sure the board dont bend. All u guys complaining bout heat and lack of airflow or whatever should realize a few things. Theres plenty of gpu's out there running same temps if not higher. the board is bent before u even turn it on the first time!!! the gpu side has all the wiggle room it wants. if m$ were to have put the cpu on that side of the board it would be the cpu u guys claim is running too hot and doesnt have enuff cooling... xclamp standoffs are too high so they clear the 2 metal humps in the cage (4.5mm-ish) the outter edge screws pull he board down to around 3mm-ish high. As long as there ISNT a proper standoff system these problems wont ever go away. Unless u remove 100% of the heat there WILL BE thermal expansion involved. look at the jaspers.... way less heat and same ol problems!!! cause they use the same ol pos metal cage. Foxxcon should have already known this ahead of time
UMMM, FAIL in every way possible....
With the 2 middle standoffs, I always grind them down to 3mm when applying the Advance Hybrid RRoD fix kit. I have done this fix to many xbox's, mostly the old xenons, and the problems went away. I also helps to use good thermal paste such as Arctic Silver 5 or Arctic MX-3. Those lousy x-clamps put too much stress on the GPU and CPU and cause them to flex so much that the solder joints break due to excessive heating and cooling.
They should have never put the GPU under the DVD drive.
Post by: relaxxx on March 10, 2010, 05:39:00 PM
QUOTE
' date='Mar 10 2010, 08:43 AM' post='4655776']
UMMM, FAIL in every way possible....
UMMM, FAIL in every way possible....
My only failure that I can tell is my inability to explain my solution. There is clearly a lack of communication/ understanding here. How can a freestanding heatsink detached from an uneven base apply ANY flexing torque on the motherboard?
This is what team hybrid claims is the problem!? The X-clamps free standing in this config DO NOT flex the board. it is pressure applied from the case as you even acknowledged that is the real problem. The solution is so simple!
Think of a string being held between only two points with opposing force, it will form a straight line from point A to point B. Now attach a third point and apply another force, the string is no longer a straight line. This is what happens to many 360 motherboards when the heatsink is fastened to the case.
Explain what it is exactly that is wrong with my sig so I can better explain myself and we can all grow and stop causing long term damage to our consoles.
Anyone here who apposes logical debate may get my apologies but NOT my respect, that is for certain!
Post by: juggahax0r on March 10, 2010, 06:35:00 PM
QUOTE(relaxxx @ Mar 10 2010, 07:39 PM)
My only failure that I can tell is my inability to explain my solution. There is clearly a lack of communication/ understanding here. How can a freestanding heatsink detached from an uneven base apply ANY flexing torque on the motherboard?
This is what team hybrid claims is the problem!? The X-clamps free standing in this config DO NOT flex the board. it is pressure applied from the case as you even acknowledged that is the real problem. The solution is so simple!
Think of a string being held between only two points with opposing force, it will form a straight line from point A to point B. Now attach a third point and apply another force, the string is no longer a straight line. This is what happens to many 360 motherboards when the heatsink is fastened to the case.
Explain what it is exactly that is wrong with my sig so I can better explain myself and we can all grow and stop causing long term damage to our consoles.
Anyone here who apposes logical debate may get my apologies but NOT my respect, that is for certain!
Team hybrid did a lot of testing to "prove" there point , they didn't just randomly come up with information. What exactly do you do relaxxx? Just taking out the black screws will not fix it that is really all your sig says that is any kind of instruction. If you do that then fan and shroud mod you aren't addressing the issue. Your picture is so blurry i almost wonder it it wasn't touching the motherboard and you didn't want us too see that. It is a minor detail to argue about , the MobO is definitely flexing on the sides when you screw it down around most of the plugs. Write us a tutorial , your thread about debunking the x-clamp myth would never have been taken seriously by anyone here , not with how you presented it , a lot of people have been replacing x-clamps and doing other various repair methods that worked for them , yours is not even known. Write up a clean unbiased tutorial , that explains in detail what you do AFTER an xbox red rings , preventative steps do not count as you can't guarantee the machine would have broken down as it does not suffer a 100% failure rate. The metal cage is a big issue the x-clamps may provide sufficient force and i don't think the amount of flex from the heatsink standoffs is significant enough too cause the separation of the chip from the board , it is the cheap solder and the great deal of heat that causes the most problems. I really don't see any logical debating going on with you man , it's more arrogance. Write us up a tut as i said before , and open a new thread with a less arrogant title than debunking the x-clamp myth , provide detailed pictures of your own work don't edit someone elses , and show us a video of your fix working. That is what Team Hybrid did to show their "fix" so let's see it. If you do that you might actually get some credibility. Every idea will be taken seriously when presented in different light , a lot of people on here know more than you , they know a lot more than i do too i am no expert i learn by reading what others do , i would even be willing to try whatever you are doing just to give it a shot , their are many different ways people "fix" the errors none are wrong as long as they work.
Post by: mgeno216 on February 03, 2020, 07:11:00 PM
My only explanation as to way the xclamps helped would be that it removed one more pressure point. I am not saying that the xclamps themselves are doing this, but the screws are. So again i agree with relaxxx on that.
This picture is extremely exagerated, but i hope it makes the point. The blue things are the standoffs that are too high.
(IMG:http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/mgeno216/xclamps.png)
My condensed point: Standoffs are way too TALL!
I dont think this is any revolutionary break through, but i think it is something to think about.
Post by: ccfman2004 on February 03, 2020, 07:31:00 PM
In much later revisions of the metal case, the 2 center standoffs are the proper hight.
Also the x-clamps have a black piece of plastic which also puts pressure on the motherboard too.
There is too much flexing and arcing combined with rapid heating and cooling of the CPU and GPU chips causes the majority of the problems.
If there were no flexing and arcing, you wouldn't see nearly as many problems.
Post by: relaxxx on February 03, 2020, 07:50:00 PM
Picture yourself floating in space with a 360 motherboard. Your left index finger is pushing on the bottom of the board directly in the center of the processor. Your right index finger pressing on the top center of the processor. These are the only two points you can touch the board at. Now how then can you apply flexing pressure on that board?
You can not. This is exactly the way an X clamped heatsink applies pressure to the board, it does not apply pressure to any corner.
Only when the heatsink is attached to the case can it apply uneven flexing pressure.
People constantly claim that the X Clamp flexes the board, it does not! The whole replacement scheme is based on a myth and misunderstanding.
I'm talking about the cause of the failure and prevention, not RROD repair.
Post by: mgeno216 on February 03, 2020, 09:01:00 PM
Post by: juggahax0r on March 10, 2010, 10:49:00 PM
QUOTE(relaxxx @ Mar 10 2010, 09:50 PM)
Picture yourself floating in space with a 360 motherboard.
That should be the beginning of every tutorial on here dealing with the MoBo , i like that one.
This is getting old , you are not getting the same point RDC was trying to make to you in your debunking post. A lot of people have done a lot of different things , your preventive steps don't count because every 360 will not fail , it just doesn't happen , and you don't know that what you did had any effect on whether it would ever break. So what do you do when you get a RROD xbox to fix? or are you such a god that you never have to fix them because your method is so great. I would bet that even with what you do they still fail just as equally as they would if you had done nothing , but you would have to do 100s of them this way and have 0 failures too prove that what you did worked and so far you haven't provided any evidence to support your claims. a blurry picture doesn't prove anything , sharing results is the only thing that can. I don't take you at your word just saying you have prevented failure by doing this doesn't make the statement credible. In contrast a lot of people would vouch for the x-clamp replacement working , and some even do that as a preventive step and never see a failure , but it still can't be proven that replacing the x-clamps preemptively saved it either.
Post by: MadMaxGR on February 04, 2020, 02:33:00 AM
Reminder: This post is for a new design from MS, not our methods to fix current XBOXs. Please create a new topic if you want to debate again.
Regards,
MADMAXGR
Post by: norite on February 04, 2020, 05:39:00 AM
Stop using bga chips and go for zif style connectors for the cpu and gpu.
Bring all the ram to the top of the board and use vga mini heatsinks on em.
Use a decent quality mobo that doesn't warp as soon as you breath warm air on it (This will negate the need for x-clamps)
Make sure the standoffs are 100% level with each other.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/pop.gif)
Post by: garyopa on March 11, 2010, 07:37:00 AM
QUOTE(norite @ Mar 11 2010, 07:39 AM)
Move the gpu out from under the DVD drive, move the cpu forward and put the gpu behind it, and give it a decent heatsink, or use one mahooosive fan cooled heatsink for both chips.
Use a decent quality mobo that doesn't warp as soon as you breath warm air on it (This will negate the need for x-clamps)
Your changes will not help.
Sony has done that already long time ago. -- Sony had a year of seeing 360's fail, before releasing their product. -- Sony uses a little thicker PCBoard. -- Sony has a massive heatsink / fan system -- Sony has try having gpu and cpu apart, side to side, left to right, ram on both sides, ram on one side, less ram, smaller PCBoard area, with tighter clamps. -- All Sony PS3's fail also. -- I repair dozens of PS3's per week.
Post by: Martinchris23 on February 04, 2020, 07:46:00 AM
Performance is only going to go up - no console manufacturer is going to release a successor with less performance.
How many people would buy the next Xbox if it was in a midi tower case? Not that many outside of these pages I would imagine..
Post by: [TONE] on February 04, 2020, 07:59:00 AM
QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Mar 11 2010, 03:46 PM)
So we're left in a quandry: We either have to concede that games consoles MUST have a larger footprint to cater for the necessary heat dissipation for the current and future power consumption, or reduce the performance and keep a smaller footprint.
Performance is only going to go up - no console manufacturer is going to release a successor with less performance.
How many people would buy the next Xbox if it was in a midi tower case? Not that many outside of these pages I would imagine..
the case size is fine, it could be smaller. the heat is fine it could be higher. the power consumption goes down after time and different revisions. the fans are fine, but a bit on the loud side. trapped heat ISNT the problem. and theres no way of removing 100% of the heat which would be the only way to stop thermal expansion. its all about the right design all the way thru. 1 little mistake can make a small problem HUGE
QUOTE(garyopa @ Mar 11 2010, 03:37 PM)
Your changes will not help.
Sony has done that already long time ago. -- Sony had a year of seeing 360's fail, before releasing their product. -- Sony uses a little thicker PCBoard. -- Sony has a massive heatsink / fan system -- Sony has try having gpu and cpu apart, side to side, left to right, ram on both sides, ram on one side, less ram, smaller PCBoard area, with tighter clamps. -- All Sony PS3's fail also. -- I repair dozens of PS3's per week.
AMEN, whats up gary?? long time no see (for me anyways)
Post by: garyopa on March 11, 2010, 09:43:00 AM
QUOTE(TONE @ Mar 11 2010, 09:59 AM)
ive had one in a plexi case using my own standoffs for about 3 years now. and yes it was rrod b4 i FIXED it.
AMEN, whats up gary?? long time no see (for me anyways)
You have any pictures of your plexi-case?
I am sure having a flat 360 board would help, but over time the board will still rrod or now these days E74, just like the PS3 it takes longer to breakdown then a 360, but when it does, it does.
I am around on this site lurking, make an odd post here and there, when I have time or there is a good point to be made or debate to talk about.
I spend most of my morning work hours fixing crappy PS3's now, and then I spent most of my online 'net time taking care of http://psx-scene.com as I been the hosting admin for that site now for almost a year.
Any free time I have, I spend working on some neat FPGA projects and other embedded technology for myself and other people under contract, like I have for the last 20 odd years now.
Post by: DARKFiB3R on March 11, 2010, 06:30:00 PM
Post by: mgeno216 on March 11, 2010, 06:54:00 PM
Post by: juggahax0r on March 13, 2010, 12:00:00 PM
QUOTE(mgeno216 @ Mar 11 2010, 08:54 PM)
I don't think the shape is wierd. The metal chasis is normally shaped, just a rectangle. The plastic case makes no different to the console, like you said, it is only the proformance that matters. i don't think that is really an issue. I think microsft might want to just move on with a new console. They have tried 4 times to get this right and the best learning tool is making mistakes.
I don't think MS is wanting to make a new console. They have made the statement a few times that they see the 360 being around for the next 10 years. That could also be a ploy to keep the consumer buying it for a little while , but i doubt it. they will eventually get it right , hopefully the person they hire will fix it for good. I'm not sure if they have hired new people for every revision but maybe this is a signal that they will be making a major change to the MoBo for the 5 year anniversary in Nov , that and project Natal is supossed to be coming out for the holiday maybe it has something to do with that.
I don't really think the best learning tool is letting the consumer find out what your mistakes are. It pissed a lot of people off when a few days after they got their 360 it started flashing red and not working. On top of it it cost them (MS) a ton of money to replace them all , add in the fact that they sold them below cost just so people could afford them , and you are looking at a big mistake by MS. It isn't the first one they have made , and won't be the last. When you get right down too it though , besides the RROD issue when they are working they are a pretty nice gaming machine , besides the fact that you can upgrade a PC too the max i like it better than PC gaming.
Post by: ccfman2004 on March 13, 2010, 04:01:00 PM