Post by: Just a Shadow on September 03, 2008, 06:18:00 AM
My little nephews xbox is a launch console (2005) and still has original x-clamps and works fine.
Post by: Wilhelm_I on September 03, 2008, 01:18:00 PM
Just wait for it to die.
The preventive stuff only works for brandnew consoles that havent been powered yet
and you must be extremely careful because otherwise you will flex it which can already cause trouble in the future..
Post by: josiah1992 on September 03, 2008, 02:38:00 PM
QUOTE(ILikeMeat @ Sep 3 2008, 09:42 PM) 
Um, don't all consoles get tested before leaving the MS plant?
And I would say, do it now before it breaks...Broken solder balls are harder to fix than intact ones if you see my drift. They are especially harder to fix without a reflow...
yeah, but in rare cases people have screwed up their motherboards by not being careful whilst doing the x-clamp replacement and if he happens to screw it up when his console is already working that that would be a kick in the testicles.
Post by: modderguy791 on September 03, 2008, 02:57:00 PM
Post by: Just a Shadow on September 03, 2008, 04:59:00 PM
I would leave it alone for now and enjoy the games.
Post by: Wilhelm_I on September 04, 2008, 12:55:00 AM
I just said that because the earlier you do it the smaller is the chance that solder balls are faulty already...
Post by: haris2887 on September 04, 2008, 02:00:00 PM
i got my original 360 in 2006 and it is still going strong to this day without any problem....
Post by: Wilhelm_I on September 04, 2008, 03:16:00 PM
QUOTE(haris2887 @ Sep 4 2008, 10:36 PM)
Think of it logically, if it has lasted you 3 years what makes you think it is going to fail,
i got my original 360 in 2006 and it is still going strong to this day without any problem....
Just randomly happens I have had my launch console for a long time as well and it got the ROD with 0102 last month.
It lasted for nearly 3 years as well(2005er)
Did Lawdawgs as preventive measure a while back though, didnt work...
I am pretty lucky with 360s this is the first that gave me myself the ROD.
One of my mates is on his 9th 360, he's had a lot of bad luck once he got his console back from the repair and it RODd straight when he turned it on the first time...
There are still some launch consoles that are still working it is really just luck...
Post by: Arakon on September 06, 2008, 11:01:00 AM
Post by: Wilhelm_I on September 06, 2008, 01:31:00 PM
If you are covered by the warranty just keep it...
Post by: M2X on September 06, 2008, 02:46:00 PM
And btw you might also cause RRoD while doing the fix.
If you wanna replace the claps then be very careful.
Post by: Stonestrong on September 10, 2008, 05:00:00 AM
All i would do is place an additional fan, or raise the voltage to the ones who are in it to prevent an overheated xbox.
What about that?
(Sorry for the long periods in between my replies
)
Post by: RBJTech on September 10, 2008, 06:16:00 AM
Why do you think MS have not revised the X-clamp design, even with the newest boards ?
You just need to increase the airflow over the original GPU heatsink and you'll be good to go - no need whatsoever to replace the x-clamps.
You only need an 'x-clamp fix' if you have had the RROD - ie the damage has already been done and you need to use an alternative method to clamp/bend the GPU to the board to 'fix' the problem.
Higher voltage fans are good, as are airflow guide mods etc but leave the x-clamps alone ..
Post by: Wilhelm_I on September 10, 2008, 09:56:00 AM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Sep 10 2008, 02:52 PM)
As has been said MANY time - there is nothing wrong with the design of the X-Clamps - the problem is the heat generated in the GPU/heatsink.
Why do you think MS have not revised the X-clamp design, even with the newest boards ?
You just need to increase the airflow over the original GPU heatsink and you'll be good to go - no need whatsoever to replace the x-clamps.
You only need an 'x-clamp fix' if you have had the RROD - ie the damage has already been done and you need to use an alternative method to clamp/bend the GPU to the board to 'fix' the problem.
Higher voltage fans are good, as are airflow guide mods etc but leave the x-clamps alone ..
I seriously doubt that.
My mates 360 was the first one I opened up ages ago and I have installed pretty much all cooling mods over time in there.
So it has always been running at like 30°C lower core temps and it got the ROD anyway.
There are also xboxes that ROD as soon as you take them out of the box and like water cooled 360s that got the ROD, these strengthen that idea.
Additionally a dutch friend just called me who sent his 360 a few weeks ago and got an Opus mobo because it started RODing today. Even the new ones which are running cooler still do ROD but since they still got the 90nm GPU they cant really be counted as an aspect....
The flexing is definitely one of the main reasons why these things fail, the uneven pressure on the center deforms the chip and the mainboard.
You can simply see it when you replace the X-Clamps of older boards, they are all warped upwards.
On the other hand the X-Clamp replacement isnt much better if you apply too much pressure it will be warped badly into the other direction in the end and cause similar issues, since it is downwards it will rather be stuff like E74 though.
I must admit though that you cannot blame the x-clamps only, there are also other design flaws that cause bad flexing but more on this soon...
The high temps increase the effect that the flexing, caused by the X-Clamp Fix/ X-Clamps, has thats why doing cooling mods is always recommended.
If you enlarge the surface area so that the whole chip is taken under pressure there will be less flexing cause the whole chip gets a more equal pressure.
Bonzof this polish dude gave some nice examples in another post like for example Radeon GPUs got the same design, one die in the center but this one is surrounded by foam to take the rest under pressure as well.
And none of the other gfx-cards use X-Clamps that work in the way Microsoft uses them, some guy once posted an example with one that used an "X-Clamp" but this didnt take the card under pressure it acted like a washer for the 4 screws.
I havent heard of any problems like that for these products and Radeons get quite hot as well...
It is not the X-Clamps only that cause the issues but if you sum up all the mistakes that were made and combine them you have got the big problem that Microsoft has got here...
Dont get me wrong though If the 360 isnt broken dont touch anything near the clamps though because this will rather break anything than do any good...
Wilhelm
Post by: M2X on September 10, 2008, 12:59:00 PM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Sep 10 2008, 04:22 PM)
As has been said MANY time - there is nothing wrong with the design of the X-Clamps - the problem is the heat generated in the GPU/heatsink.
Why do you think MS have not revised the X-clamp design, even with the newest boards ?
You just need to increase the airflow over the original GPU heatsink and you'll be good to go - no need whatsoever to replace the x-clamps.
You only need an 'x-clamp fix' if you have had the RROD - ie the damage has already been done and you need to use an alternative method to clamp/bend the GPU to the board to 'fix' the problem.
Higher voltage fans are good, as are airflow guide mods etc but leave the x-clamps alone ..
Considering what you say is right, then why did my box fail after 11 months even though I did the 12v fan mod, shroud divider mod, GPU airflow mod, put an extra fan and etc??!
It didn't even get hot after like 5hours of hardcore gaming!
But it suddenly died out of 0102 and your great MKI method saved my ass... .
I think that X-clamps are the main reason for flexing the board and causing failures. Heat is something that causes the box to fail sooner and a cooler box definitely lasts longer than an unmodded box.
Post by: CHLSE on September 10, 2008, 02:37:00 PM
preventive measures arent always required. i have a console already running 9 months after a x-clamp fix. and never did any cooling mods. but yeah to prevent is always better than to cure
Post by: RBJTech on September 10, 2008, 03:10:00 PM
The board is NOT fixed (only by a few outside edge screws) - therefore the only 'movement' is thermal.
The RROD is caused by the board flexing (due to the heat in the chip case and/or heatsink) but the chip staying solid (due to the X-clamps) - so the opposite of what most people think...
Thermal cycles / crap lead free / poor quality solder balls in the first place etc will all cause the solder joint to break (regardless of 'cooling') - but this is not caused by the X-clamps ...
If the x-clamps were a contributing factor to the RROD - do you not think that after spending a Billion replacing them all, MS may have changed the design ...
All IMO of course ...
Post by: Wilhelm_I on September 11, 2008, 12:10:00 AM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Sep 10 2008, 11:46 PM)
Take a look at the 'X-Clamp' design - have a think about how it actually works - it is simply a 4 way spring that pushes the center of the GPU chip itself UP (fromt UNDER the board) onto a FIXED heatsink (that is screwed SOLID onto the base of the case).
The board is NOT fixed (only by a few outside edge screws) - therefore the only 'movement' is thermal.
The RROD is caused by the board flexing (due to the heat in the chip case and/or heatsink) but the chip staying solid (due to the X-clamps) - so the opposite of what most people think...
Thermal cycles / crap lead free / poor quality solder balls in the first place etc will all cause the solder joint to break (regardless of 'cooling') - but this is not caused by the X-clamps ...
If the x-clamps were a contributing factor to the RROD - do you not think that after spending a Billion replacing them all, MS may have changed the design ...
All IMO of course ...
Yes thats true but the problem is that the force applied from below is much higher because it is only this extremely tiny tip in the center that pushes it up.
So the pressure applied from below is like 16 times as high.
The temperature will sure have effects on the flexing process since it easier deforms when it gets hot but without the X-Clamps the temp flexing would only be temporary...
The fact that it is fixed to the case does not mean a thing since the board will just deform lower, there is enough room in between x-clamps and bolts, it is not fixed just as you said.
The chip doesnt stay solid it deforms as well I have seen this on a lot of mainboards...
And leadfree solder is used in everything today that was built in the last 4 years so we would see this phenomenon occur much more also for other devices....
An interesting thing to look at it is this -> Tin Whiskers but this theory only fits for 0020 360s...
M$ also got a reputation to loose and if they would release to the public that it was such a small mistake that they couldnt fix in 3 years then a lot of angry customers would file law suits against them like in the past...
And M$ never wanted to make profits with this console they always sold it under price, it was just WIndows key to the living room...
Wilhelm
Post by: RBJTech on September 11, 2008, 04:53:00 AM
QUOTE(Wilhelm_I @ Sep 11 2008, 07:46 AM)
Yes thats true but the problem is that the force applied from below is much higher because it is only this extremely tiny tip in the center that pushes it up.
So the pressure applied from below is like 16 times as high.
The temperature will sure have effects on the flexing process since it easier deforms when it gets hot but without the X-Clamps the temp flexing would only be temporary...
The fact that it is fixed to the case does not mean a thing since the board will just deform lower, there is enough room in between x-clamps and bolts, it is not fixed just as you said.
The chip doesnt stay solid it deforms as well I have seen this on a lot of mainboards...
And leadfree solder is used in everything today that was built in the last 4 years so we would see this phenomenon occur much more also for other devices....
An interesting thing to look at it is this -> Tin Whiskers but this theory only fits for 0020 360s...
M$ also got a reputation to loose and if they would release to the public that it was such a small mistake that they couldnt fix in 3 years then a lot of angry customers would file law suits against them like in the past...
And M$ never wanted to make profits with this console they always sold it under price, it was just WIndows key to the living room...
Wilhelm
I'm not sure that we are disagreeing ! I'm simply saying that the X-Clamp does not cause the flexing - the heat does (which you agree with) - so in answer to the OP's question - no, there is no need to replace the X-Clamps ...
Post by: Wilhelm_I on September 11, 2008, 07:43:00 AM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Sep 11 2008, 01:29 PM)
I'm not sure that we are disagreeing ! I'm simply saying that the X-Clamp does not cause the flexing - the heat does (which you agree with) - so in answer to the OP's question - no, there is no need to replace the X-Clamps ...
I still dont agree on that completely but I guess to leave the end open is the smartest idea since this will be a never ending conversation...
To get back to topic let me quote you:
"no, there is no need to replace the X-Clamps ...
"Wilhelm