Post by: jimbobjim on August 04, 2008, 09:06:00 AM
I just wanted to share a new method that I came up with for fixing the dreaded ring of death. I haven't tested this extensively as I only developed it a few days back, but I successfully repaired three consoles with it and all have survived rigorous testing ever since.
Basically, for a while now, i've felt that there is an unbalance of pressure on the GPU when using either the Microsoft clamping system or the popular x-clamp replacement. I've made up a few super technical drawings to illustrate what I mean
The aim of my method is to create a balance of pressure above and below the GPU.
Things needed:-
. 8 M5 washers
. 2 thermal transfer pads (found on underside ram chips)
. Thermal compound (I recommend AS5)
. Tools for dismantling console.
Step 1... Completely dismantle your console (there are tuts everywhere for this) then clean up your CPU/GPU and heat sinks. I always do both chips as it's a more complete job.
Step 2... Take two of the heat transfer pads off your ram chips and place them like in the picture. In my opinion they are a completely useless bandaid that MS used to prevent the ROD (they failed) so they won't be missed by the RAM. If you like you can leave yours where they are and source some more. Consoles manufactured prior to may 06 may not have them.
Step 3... After applying fresh thermal paste to your chips, pop one of the heatsinks back on and turn the board upsidedown. Put an M5 washer around each leg. See picture below.
Step 4... Remove the black plastic tab from the centre of your x-clamps. These are what cause board warpage in the MS method.
Step 5... This is the tricky part, you now have to put the x-clamp back on. Apply strong, controlled pressure and snap each leg on carefully.
Step 6... repeat for the other chip.
Step 7... Put your console back together exatly as it was before, this includes the 8 small screws underneath that hold the heatsinks in place.
Step 8... Try your console, if it works you're done and can start playing
, if not, then you need to overheat the GPU to soften the solder. To do this simply put a fan on your CPU and leave the GPU uncooled... this will make your console think it is ok as the CPU is the only temperature controlled chip. Leave it this way for about 10-15 mins then let it cool for 20 mins. Your machine should now hopefully boot up.Here's another highly technical drawing of what should be happening with your console after the fix.
Oh, just for fun here's the console in the pics again. It was dead prior to the repair.
That's about all from me, I hope to hear some feedback on this and I hope a few of you find the time to have a crack at it. I am in no way saying any of the other fixes posted here are crap, I have used many of them myself with great success. I just wanted to make a small contribution to the scene and give an alternative method to anyone that is hitting a dead end.
Lastly... I accept no responsibility if you break your console even more.
Cheers.
Post by: Wilhelm_I on August 04, 2008, 09:15:00 AM
The fact that the pressure is shared up to a larger area under the GPU really improves the X-Clamps.
I doubt though that this will be a permanent solution, sure it will be much more permanent than using the regular X-Clamps but there will still be flexing caused by the X-Clamps.
This simply happens because the center solder balls are taken under twice as much pressure than the outer ones(force from the top[heatsink] and from the bottom[x-clamp])
So this pressure difference will cause the chip to flex slightly at the outer parts and take the outer solder balls under pressure.
You might want to check my tutorial out it provides even pressure on all solder balls from above only so there will still be slight flexing no matter how you take it.
Me and M2X had a little conversation on the 3rd page about finding a way to take the chip under pressure from below we ended up finding no way.
Obviously you have found one, maybe we can combine mine and yours to an over all one.
For this to work we would have to prepare the X-Clamps first though and increase the size of the area that the X-Clamp takes under pressure.
I thought about making the area as big as the GPU itself, probably a metal plate and below some foam to prevent damaging the capacitors on the bottom side of the mainboard.
This would result in even pressure from below and above and provide a perfect even pressure on every single solder ball
If we can manage to get this to work somehow this will be the ultimate fix
This post has been edited by Wilhelm_I: Aug 4 2008, 04:21 PM
Post by: relaxxx on August 04, 2008, 09:48:00 AM
This post has been edited by relaxxx: Aug 4 2008, 04:50 PM
Post by: jimbobjim on August 04, 2008, 10:04:00 AM
Wilhelm_I I see what you're saying about it being ideal that the upward pressure have the same surface as the GPU it's self. However, I believe that my method increases the area so much (700% at a guess) that any warping would be minimal and cause no problems.
I like your way too mate, I can really see how those credit card spacers will help stop the bow effect near the GPU. I wish there was a bit of a tidyer way to stick the spacers down though, sticky tape looks a bit messy. But hey ho, who cares if it works?
Only time will tell for both our methods I suppose.
relaxxx
The ram pads are soft but when they are compacted under the pressure of the x-clamp they are quite hard.
I did also say that not all boards have them.
This post has been edited by jimbobjim: Aug 4 2008, 05:08 PM
Post by: bonzof.pl on August 04, 2008, 11:42:00 AM
+
They will pierce on farthest plan of forum M$ fastly .Rapid fire controler (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ....................
Pro-X/clamp bonzo.pl
This post has been edited by bonzof.pl: Aug 4 2008, 06:54 PM
Post by: chadives on August 04, 2008, 11:51:00 AM
Good work though, I hope this works well. I will definately try it when the next RROD comes across my plate.(wont be for a while cuz I only do them for friends and most of them warranty anyway) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
WOW, just looked at Bonzof.pl's pics and this guy has done some really interesting stuff. I looks like he as actually reballed the chips, as well as a modified x clamp replacement with a potting procedure that does similar to what is done here and in wilhelm's. Someone should work with this guy/gal on putting his method in a tutorial.....someone who speaks polish would be the key.
This post has been edited by chadives: Aug 4 2008, 07:01 PM
Post by: chadives on August 05, 2008, 11:26:00 AM
Post by: jimbobjim on August 05, 2008, 01:32:00 PM
It's a common misconception that they are the number 1 cause of the ROD. The only thing that the clamps do wrong is apply pressure on a very tiny surface area underneath the GPU... This only becomes an issue when added to the excess heat produced, insufficient cooling, cheap solder and the wafer thin motherboard.Basically, taking away any of the above factors before failure will probably ensure that your 360 lives much longer.
Post by: HackerSupreme on August 05, 2008, 02:05:00 PM
Post by: bonzof.pl on August 05, 2008, 02:14:00 PM
SYLWIA temperatur
Post by: bonzof.pl on August 05, 2008, 02:51:00 PM
free Pb problem
This post has been edited by bonzof.pl: Aug 5 2008, 10:10 PM
Post by: jimbobjim on August 05, 2008, 03:54:00 PM
QUOTE(HackerSupreme @ Aug 5 2008, 09:41 PM) 
This is like that Jewel Case method...Temporary at best in my opinion. And it is hard as FUCK to get the X clamps back on the system, without the washers, with them on...wow...
I'd say getting the clamps on is tricky, but it's not that hard.
Whether the fix is temporary or not remains to be seen, and only time will tell. I just felt like coming up with something a bit different in the hope that a permanent solution may come of it. Lets face it, there is currently no such thing as an easy, permanent fix as yet. Certain people may claim that the x-clamp replacement mod is permanent but after fixing well over 100 consoles using this method, I can safely say "it isn't". My method is merely another attempt at stopping these pos consoles doing what they do best.
BTW... Can sombody possibly translate for bonzof.pl? I think he may have some good points but can't understand him.
Post by: bonzof.pl on August 05, 2008, 11:00:00 PM
silikon Ph.
This post has been edited by bonzof.pl: Aug 6 2008, 06:01 AM
Post by: calefz on August 06, 2008, 12:14:00 AM
Post by: Chimp5000 on August 06, 2008, 12:24:00 AM
Nice find though!
Post by: jimbobjim on August 06, 2008, 02:57:00 AM
I'll have a search around the net today to see if I can find a suitable substitute.
Post by: Majestic008 on August 06, 2008, 09:06:00 AM
i keep seeing these methods trying the "Permanent fix" for the RROD problem warp'age and i have to ask this:
i do like jimbobjim's method a lot and i find it easier than that of the xclamp removal fix.
he also pointed out in his picture how the xclamp fix is really not a fix. a bit shocking but true.
considering the new falcons have the new GPU heatsink are these methods necessary? the new GPU heatsink transfers the heat from the big heatsink to the small one using the pipe it has thereby losing almost all the heat that causes the solder to become loose.
am i correct?
Post by: Wilhelm_I on August 06, 2008, 09:32:00 AM
QUOTE(Majestic008 @ Aug 6 2008, 05:42 PM)
hello.
i keep seeing these methods trying the "Permanent fix" for the RROD problem warp'age and i have to ask this:
i do like jimbobjim's method a lot and i find it easier than that of the xclamp removal fix.
he also pointed out in his picture how the xclamp fix is really not a fix. a bit shocking but true.
considering the new falcons have the new GPU heatsink are these methods necessary? the new GPU heatsink transfers the heat from the big heatsink to the small one using the pipe it has thereby losing almost all the heat that causes the solder to become loose.
am i correct?
http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=655662
Post by: bonzof.pl on August 06, 2008, 09:35:00 AM
QUOTE(jimbobjim @ Aug 6 2008, 11:33 AM)
, so you can use two to fix it and put the other 2 aside for a later date.
?? 3 ROD
Konsole SYLWIA 15.08.2007
and
Queen konsole.Samsung
PSX3 hamburger Mc Donalds
Post by: jimbobjim on August 06, 2008, 09:40:00 AM
QUOTE(Majestic008 @ Aug 6 2008, 04:42 PM) 
considering the new falcons have the new GPU heatsink are these methods necessary? the new GPU heatsink transfers the heat from the big heatsink to the small one using the pipe it has thereby losing almost all the heat that causes the solder to become loose.
am i correct?
Unfortunately the New GPU heatsink is just another failed bandaid from Microsoft. Two of the three consoles I repaired with my method where elites with zephyr boards and the extended heatsink. Infact, my main machine that i'm using everyday to test my fix is one of those two.
As far as the GPU side goes, xenons, zephyrs and falcons are all the same.
Perhaps Jasper will be microsofts first reliable board.
Just want to add, my main console first died about a month ago so I did lawdawgs x-clamp relacement on it, after two weeks it died again. I then over heated it and tightened the screws... it lasted 24 hours. This is why I came up with this new method.
This post has been edited by jimbobjim: Aug 6 2008, 04:47 PM
Post by: Majestic008 on August 06, 2008, 09:59:00 AM
QUOTE(jimbobjim @ Aug 6 2008, 08:16 PM)
Unfortunately the New GPU heatsink is just another failed bandaid from Microsoft. Two of the three consoles I repaired with my method where elites with zephyr boards and the extended heatsink. Infact, my main machine that i'm using everyday to test my fix is one of those two.
As far as the GPU side goes, xenons, zephyrs and falcons are all the same.
Perhaps Jasper will be microsofts first reliable board.
Just want to add, my main console first died about a month ago so I did lawdawgs x-clamp relacement on it, after two weeks it died again. I then over heated it and tightened the screws... it lasted 24 hours. This is why I came up with this new method.
thanks Jimbobjim.
I will try your method on my new elite (manufacture date: april 2008) and will update this thread with success or failure.
i will also video document it so if it does work i will upload it to youtube giving full credit to you of course.
Post by: jimbobjim on August 06, 2008, 10:17:00 AM
I'm quite happy that you won't make your console worse by doing it so it's up to you mate.
Post by: Majestic008 on August 06, 2008, 11:23:00 AM
QUOTE(jimbobjim @ Aug 6 2008, 08:53 PM)
Does your elite have the ring of death? if not then it might be best to wait a bit to see if my fix stands the test of time. I'd hate for you to mess your console up cos of me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
I'm quite happy that you won't make your console worse by doing it so it's up to you mate.
no. my console doesnt have the RROD or any issues at the moment.
i've been hammering it with GTA4 for the last 2 days and its been OK.
so you think i should leave it alone?
Post by: jimbobjim on August 06, 2008, 02:28:00 PM
Post by: humboldt111502 on August 06, 2008, 03:59:00 PM
QUOTE(jimbobjim @ Aug 6 2008, 10:33 AM)
The only place you can really get the ram pads from is consoles themselves. Luckily each console that has them has four, so you can use two to fix it and put the other 2 aside for a later date.
I'll have a search around the net today to see if I can find a suitable substitute.
How about those pads that come with the xecuter rrod fix it kit? I bought one of the wholesale kits to try out, but maybe they would be better for this. they are a little thinner than the stock ones, but more dense material.
How bout this idea...combine RBJtech's method with the 2 newer ideas....
- screw
- metal case
- modded xclamps w plastic removed and pad added
- 1 washer (not sure if this one is needed)
- motherboard
- 2 washers
- heatsink
and this would also be combined with the litthe pieces of credit card around the dies to even pressure from the top. Im also thinkin that maybe the credit card pieces could be glued or use a dab of thermal paste instead of tape, i dunno.
Post by: jimbobjim on August 07, 2008, 02:42:00 AM
I couldn't really say if the xecuter pads would work as i've only seen em in pics.
This post has been edited by jimbobjim: Aug 7 2008, 09:58 AM
Post by: card9 on August 07, 2008, 08:03:00 AM
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=656367
Post by: humboldt111502 on August 07, 2008, 12:00:00 PM
here are some pics of what it looks like bolted directly to the board, later i will bolt it thru the bottom of the case:
(IMG:http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/6210/dscf0461od8.jpg)
(IMG:http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3073/dscf0466bb1.jpg)
here are the xecuter pads used....
(IMG:http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3367/dscf0467bb8.jpg)
(IMG:http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2636/dscf0471dw7.jpg)
(IMG:http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1672/dscf0472wb3.jpg)
then on the top, u put 2 washers then the heatsink with the chopped up credit card pieces around the cpu/gpu to even pressure from the top. im not the best at making those computer drawings, but with my pics do u get my idea?
Post by: jimbobjim on August 07, 2008, 12:12:00 PM
Post by: card9 on August 07, 2008, 12:21:00 PM
Post by: humboldt111502 on August 07, 2008, 12:29:00 PM
QUOTE(jimbobjim @ Aug 7 2008, 07:48 PM)
That looks really good mate. Does it fit back in the chassis though, or will you have to drill some holes in the metal?
it looks like it would fit, but when the board gets screwed down, it might put pressure where the bolts are, unless u use really flat headed ones. thats why i just want to run the bolt all the way from the bottom.
Post by: humboldt111502 on August 07, 2008, 12:45:00 PM
QUOTE(card9 @ Aug 7 2008, 07:57 PM)
The more pressure you put from the bottom the more is applied from the top by the heatsink, and in my case hasn't been an issue so far coming up 2 months now. You may want to check if any of the X- clamp arms are touching the caps on the bottom of the board, from the pics they look pretty close which will result in shorts, but it could just be the angle it was taken at.
Okay makes sense, so Ill add a nylon washer before the motherboard and mod the ends of the clamps like you did, except i think it would be easier to use a dremel and cut off wheel to just slice off the ends. Also i just put the xecueter pad next to the little plastic part from the clamps and they look to be the exact same thickness.
Post by: card9 on August 07, 2008, 12:59:00 PM
Hope it works out for you.
Post by: Onimu on August 07, 2008, 02:52:00 PM
I'm think to place a Nylon washer instead metal between xclamp and board can create softer pressure. Also, using humboldt pads cause little more back pressure then those ram pads.
Post by: Onimu on August 08, 2008, 02:51:00 AM
. So, I shut it off to connect my dvd drive back to test it. It give three again right after i power up. I don't know, how come my xbox360 don't like xclamp anymore, It could last about a week with screws, nylon and metal washers after heat gun it.
Post by: tr1pp1n on August 22, 2008, 10:32:00 PM
Post by: tr1pp1n on August 26, 2008, 12:38:00 AM
Post by: jimbobjim on August 26, 2008, 02:59:00 AM
QUOTE(tr1pp1n @ Aug 26 2008, 08:14 AM)
i hate to bump this but i haven't seen much feedback and from the explanation it appears to be the best method (on paper anyways) anyone using this that has had good results?
Sorry, I missed your last post. I can't really say for sure that it's better than Lawdawgs method as it isn't truely time tested yet. However, my console is still working 100% after three weeks.
Post by: tr1pp1n on August 26, 2008, 08:08:00 AM
Post by: tr1pp1n on September 06, 2008, 01:31:00 AM
Post by: jimbobjim on September 06, 2008, 01:43:00 AM
I hope it keeps on working. Your washers must be slightly fatter than mine as I don't really have much of a problem putting the clamps back on.Mine is still going strong after a month and has had zero lockups/glitches.
Post by: kope on September 11, 2008, 08:57:00 AM
dont have any...
else i'll give wilhelms method a try!
Post by: Wilhelm_I on September 11, 2008, 10:39:00 AM
QUOTE(kope @ Sep 11 2008, 05:33 PM)
would it make sense to try this method without the thermal pads?
dont have any...
else i'll give wilhelms method a try!
Without the pads the method would pretty much make no sense since it will just be a regular x-clamp...
To do that you will definitely need one of the pads, this is the major difference...
This post has been edited by Wilhelm_I: Sep 11 2008, 05:40 PM
Post by: jimbobjim on September 21, 2008, 03:17:00 AM
Oh well guys, looks like it's back to the drawing board. To be fair, my console had been "fixed" in the past, so this test was not done with a newly broken console.
I hope those of you that have tried my method have no problems and can leave updates as to how your machine is going.
A moment of silence please.
Post by: Professor_Xbox on September 21, 2008, 05:50:00 AM
QUOTE(jimbobjim @ Sep 21 2008, 10:53 AM)
**UPDATE** My Xbox is DEAD again
Oh well guys, looks like it's back to the drawing board.
Well, there's a surprise!
The MS x-clamp doesn't have the force to bow the motherboard upwards in the first place. The reason it fails is for several reasons. Firstly when MS used the thermal pad they couldn't use bolts to hold the heatsinks down since the thermal pad is of variable thickness so needed a solution that provided constant pressure at variable height. That's why the x-clamps have a certain spring in them. Secondly the thermal pad is a terrible conductor of heat. Thirdly, some genius at MS thought it best to put a tiny GPU heatsink on and cover it with a DVD player and minimal airflow. Genius! And of course, finally, they used a BGA chip cos it was cheaper than pins.
If they'd ponied up the dough and put a decent thermal paste on they could have bolted the heatsinks down but I guess manufacturing costs prohibited that. Bear in mind this is a console that is half the price of a PS3 (yes, I know MS doesn't have Blu-ray but even so!)
The reason this fix kinda works for a while is cos you are putting a little more pressure on the chips by adding the extra washers but it doesn't last cos you still have ye'olde thermal pad and the clamps just don't provide enough... clamp!
What you need jimbobjim, is one of these; X Clamp Fix Kits
Post by: Zoneout on September 21, 2008, 09:11:00 AM
Alright, this was my proposal, with added Wilhelm's improved X-Clamp Fix:
(IMG:http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/senja81/Finished_Product.jpg)
Post by: jimbobjim on September 21, 2008, 12:21:00 PM
QUOTE(Professor_Xbox @ Sep 21 2008, 01:26 PM)
Well, there's a surprise!
The MS x-clamp doesn't have the force to bow the motherboard upwards in the first place. The reason it fails is for several reasons. Firstly when MS used the thermal pad they couldn't use bolts to hold the heatsinks down since the thermal pad is of variable thickness so needed a solution that provided constant pressure at variable height. That's why the x-clamps have a certain spring in them. Secondly the thermal pad is a terrible conductor of heat. Thirdly, some genius at MS thought it best to put a tiny GPU heatsink on and cover it with a DVD player and minimal airflow. Genius! And of course, finally, they used a BGA chip cos it was cheaper than pins.
If they'd ponied up the dough and put a decent thermal paste on they could have bolted the heatsinks down but I guess manufacturing costs prohibited that. Bear in mind this is a console that is half the price of a PS3 (yes, I know MS doesn't have Blu-ray but even so!)
The reason this fix kinda works for a while is cos you are putting a little more pressure on the chips by adding the extra washers but it doesn't last cos you still have ye'olde thermal pad and the clamps just don't provide enough... clamp!
What you need jimbobjim, is one of these; X Clamp Fix Kits
Didn't really need the lesson mate
I've fixed a good 200 xboxes with regular washers and bolts, and I know exactly why they fail.Unfortunately, even the good ol' x-clamp kits you linked to on ebay are by no means a permanent fix, and will likely only last a few months.
Post by: Professor_Xbox on September 21, 2008, 01:17:00 PM
Zoneout's method looks excellent tho. Presume you'd have to cut a big ol' hole in the case to accomodate the metal plate and screws tho??? Have you tried it for 6 months Zoneout???
Here's an idea: Zoneout's fix with a hole cut through the metal case and then another one through the plastic. Put a 2" fan there and you'll be pulling all the heat out from the underside of the GPU. Brilliant, huh?
(IMG:http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f20/xbox_expert/360black.jpg)
QUOTE
even the good ol' x-clamp kits you linked to on ebay are by no means a permanent fix, and will likely only last a few months.
Granted some will but the majority that I fix are working 6 months+ down the line.This post has been edited by Professor_Xbox: Sep 21 2008, 08:20 PM
Post by: Zoneout on September 21, 2008, 01:48:00 PM
QUOTE(Professor_Xbox @ Sep 22 2008, 05:53 AM)
I assumed you were fairly up on things since you were happy to experiment and all. I was writing for all the newbies who come to the forums to figure out what's what.
Zoneout's method looks excellent tho. Presume you'd have to cut a big ol' hole in the case to accomodate the metal plate and screws tho??? Have you tried it for 6 months Zoneout???
Here's an idea: Zoneout's fix with a hole cut through the metal case and then another one through the plastic. Put a 2" fan there and you'll be pulling all the heat out from the underside of the GPU. Brilliant, huh?
Granted some will but the majority that I fix are working 6 months+ down the line.
Yep. the X-Clamp fixes working 6+ months are the reason why I haven't implemented this method yet.
- Your idea seems alright, provided you can find a fan that can nicely fit.
- Yes you would need to cut a hole in the metal casing to accommodate this method, but not necessary for the outer plastic case anyway.
I honestly believe this method is it. And thanks to jimbob for the idea, and reminding me about this.
- So I would need a kind of a metal with the right thickness and cut a block out of it for the GPU and make the drill holes for mounting.
And in between something that conducts well thermally and is solid enough to put pressure onto the chip.
- Zoneout
Post by: azurik15 on December 27, 2008, 04:18:00 PM
Post by: humboldt111502 on December 27, 2008, 05:09:00 PM
QUOTE(azurik15 @ Dec 28 2008, 12:54 AM)
I did penny fix method and worked for 3 months until yesterday.I got rrod again.Now i want to do xclamp.Is this more stable than Wilhelm's method.Seems like easier.
Actually this method seems to have started with similar ideas to the Hybrid tutorial found in my sig that Wilhelm and I wrote. Check it out.
This post has been edited by humboldt111502: Dec 28 2008, 01:14 AM
Post by: sky87 on April 25, 2010, 08:25:00 AM
It looks like they are just adding more pressure though..