Post by: Xbox-Scene on December 14, 2006, 11:57:00 AM
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Post by: Landlocked on December 14, 2006, 11:14:00 AM
Besides, 6 years later, you can find a computer, albeit sans BR, for less than the cost of a new PS3 and run Linux just fine.
Post by: quall on December 14, 2006, 11:59:00 AM
Besides, the PS3 doesn't allow gfx hardware acceleration. Basically, anything 3d is out of the question. Sony's method is NOT a solution to creating games, simply because you cannot code anything 3d into a playable state.
Post by: Trex666 on December 14, 2006, 12:10:00 PM
AFAIK the 360 is so limited in what it can do compared to ps3\linux. Eg networking
Hell people have got quake 3a and UT running on a ps3 (abit slow due to software openGL)
This post has been edited by Trex666: Dec 14 2006, 08:18 PM
Post by: zX_Storm on December 14, 2006, 12:30:00 PM
Post by: quall on December 14, 2006, 12:31:00 PM
The 360 hasn't got much, but its not like the PS3 has it all. Actually, the PS3 hasn't much at all in terms of game development.
This post has been edited by quall: Dec 14 2006, 08:34 PM
Post by: C_Ripper on December 14, 2006, 12:38:00 PM
QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Dec 14 2006, 07:37 PM) 
PS3 Linux is free.. and M$ isn't.. oh wait M$ is always trying to pinch people and take from them. Somehow stupid people always fall for it too *shrugs*. When it comes to homebrew, I'm looking for a free option.. thats the whole point of it. GG M$.
At the end he says that their intent is to have XNA games available for play by people who aren't members of the creator's club.
Post by: tutu on December 14, 2006, 12:40:00 PM
Post by: DMAddict on December 14, 2006, 01:00:00 PM
QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Dec 14 2006, 11:37 AM)
This kind of seems dumb. Of course M$ is going to talk up their own product. I still don't see a viable solution. I don't have an X360, but I sure as heck wouldn't give them money to play homebrew, especially a recurring payment. M$ just doesn't get it, and they won't ever. PS3 Linux is free.. and M$ isn't.. oh wait M$ is always trying to pinch people and take from them. Somehow stupid people always fall for it too *shrugs*. When it comes to homebrew, I'm looking for a free option.. thats the whole point of it. GG M$.
Couldn't agree with you more. There are two different communities here, Linux and XNA. M$ is just trying to get more people to embrace XNA so they can have more control of what is developed and distribute with that platform. They could care less about Linux because it doesn't bring them any added $'s. Open source will always rule.
Post by: poop1 on December 14, 2006, 01:01:00 PM
Post by: Itcouldbeyou on December 14, 2006, 01:07:00 PM
QUOTE(tutu @ Dec 14 2006, 09:47 PM)
Why exactly can you not use the RSX? Due to lack of drivers?
You cant use the RSX because Sony put hardware/software limitations on running "other os". They can send a screen to the RSX to display it, but all other capabilities are disabled.
I think the 360 is better for developing games from the ground up, but the PS3 has the advantage of using known libraries and a lot of code will run out of the box, thus enabling a lot of media center capabilities.
I guess that MS will loosen a lot of their restrictions they force on the 360 like networking (perhaps) and forced creators club, but I still don't see an XBMC coming, as all the codecs used are not written by the XBMC guys and will not be ported to C# that easily.
*edit*
Who is playing homebrew games on ther Xbox1 and what playable (native, not Xbox Linux) games are out there anyway? Sure there are emulators, but real games?
Post by: Trex666 on December 14, 2006, 01:11:00 PM
QUOTE(quall @ Dec 14 2006, 07:38 PM)
I see what you're saying Trex, but applications are all it has. Like you said, quake 3 runs very slow, and it doesn't require many resources at all. Most 3d games, or any OpenGL games that want to use gfx acceleration, won't be able to. This limits you to basically 2d games, and frankly, the 2d libraries aren't any easier than using 3d libraries (or 3d libraries are easier to use).
The 360 hasn't got much, but its not like the PS3 has it all. Actually, the PS3 hasn't much at all in terms of game development.
Agreed
QUOTE(tutu @ Dec 14 2006, 07:47 PM)
Why exactly can you not use the RSX? Due to lack of drivers?
AFAIK Its due to a Hardware Abstraction Layer.
This was also used on the PS2 and has proved to be sucessful in blocking people from accessing certian parts of hardware
QUOTE(DMAddict @ Dec 14 2006, 08:07 PM)
Couldn't agree with you more. There are two different communities here, Linux and XNA. M$ is just trying to get more people to embrace XNA so they can have more control of what is developed and distribute with that platform. They could care less about Linux because it doesn't bring them any added $'s. Open source will always rule.
Control is what they want. They have the power to block and allow access to the 360s resources. For example Ethernet is disabled.
QUOTE(poop1 @ Dec 14 2006, 08:08 PM)
they both suck , the consoles need hacked for any real productive homebrew .
Or its manufactures just need better opensource directed brains. I love LUAplayer on the PSP
Post by: Opteron on December 14, 2006, 01:23:00 PM
Post by: gamehunter101 on December 14, 2006, 01:28:00 PM
Post by: jizmo on December 14, 2006, 02:23:00 PM
PS3 has Linux, which runs emulators. Plus it has a Flash player, for which mini-game developing is very easy.
I dig my x360, but on this front it loses to PS3 6-0, no matter what MS says.
This post has been edited by jizmo: Dec 14 2006, 10:24 PM
Post by: dvsone on December 14, 2006, 07:46:00 PM
If i was a game developer, i would be having wet dreams about this stuff! I can turn my 360 into a mini dev kit and share my games with the 360 community! Wake up fools, this rools! Anyone that is serious about game development will love this and i expect a good response from it. Anyone this criticizes this i have no respect for. This will improve the industry greatly and open doors for talented young developers. XNA is for game developers not the gamers, but it will benefit us all in the end.
Post by: Altima NEO on December 14, 2006, 08:47:00 PM
Post by: 122275 on December 14, 2006, 10:24:00 PM
I download the visual c# express and the game studio but ( did not purchase the creators club for ms).
I am able to build games and applications and many other things. What I have learned so for is I can play anything I make, game or app for windows directly from within Visual C# express or build an exe to transfer to any computer to be played and with a xbox 360 controller. Whats good about this is any XNA game/app made for windows is easy to convert to the xbox 360 format from within the game editior. Visual C# express and tha Game Studio are free to download and register. So what I'm saying is you can build the homebrew for free and pass it to friends to play on there computer with a xbox 360 controller but if you want to play it on you xbox 360 you will have to buy the Creators Club but you have the chance to decide if you can program good enough to make it worth you paying ms for the 360 access.
If you like to play with building your on games like I do, this is the next best thing to sliced bread.
and its free (till you want to transfer to the xbox360)
As far as them being able to dump the ps3 disc huh they have been doing the 360 for a year now and they have dumped the hd dvd aswell so that really means nothing to me (except for some texture and 3d models
maybe Ill make a Halo homegrew game with instead of Masterchief it will be Fenix from Gears of War fightin in a Splinter Cell level. LOL
PS I was thinking if I could get the game to save to a memory card like with a action replay then I might not need the Creators Club or maybe a usb thumb drive might work . The PS is just a thought not fact.
I can build my games and play them too
or was that have my cake and eat it too
Just my humble 2 cents
Post by: The Zep Man on December 15, 2006, 01:44:00 AM
In one hand, we have the Xbox 360 which, with a yearly fee, can play 'homebrew' C# code without network functionality but with 3D acceleration. Mostly made for games.
On the other hand, we have the PS3 which, without a yearly fee, can run Linux and any compilable code with it without 3D acceleration but with network support. Mostly made for homebrew applications.
For the 'official homebrew'-part my vote goes to the PS3, even though I will likely never buy one. Both consoles are sandboxed, but one costs money and is very limited while the other is 'free' after the purchase of the console and is less limited. The performance issues with the PS3 version of Linux will probably fade away in the future, when the kernel is more optimized.
The reason I will not buy a PS3? Because I want to see Linux working on the Xbox 360. I'm saving my money for that.
Post by: EugeneEW3RD on December 15, 2006, 04:09:00 PM
The PS3 has Linux for homberew & while you can program on their version of Linux for free & have access to network ports, you don't have access to 3D acceleration so 3D game will run slowly since you don't have access to the acceleration but you do have access to the network ports.
Also, MS mentioned that they might be looking at ways to allow people to play XNA games without needing the subscription to XNA creators club.
Post by: Altima NEO on December 15, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
So much like Sony's online system, you get what you pay for with homebrew on the PS3 (ie. free).
Post by: MetalMickey on December 16, 2006, 04:24:00 AM
Post by: openxdkman on December 16, 2006, 07:35:00 AM
What is interesting is to obtain a very large base of identical hardware that can be targetted by a developper who wants to make the effort to optimize his code in order to produce something great (if the number of potential users is low, it's not really worth the effort).
This optimization will be really great if it's done in order to take full advantage of a 'beast'. Recent GPUs (xbox360, ps3, ATI, NVidia) are pure 'beasts'.
In XNA forum it is said you can have 6 threads over the 3 CPU cores, but I don't think it will bring more reward than a true optimization of shaders in order to make GPU do all the hard work. But XNA point was to make things easier. Trying to make things done by GPU shaders draws that back away. It will be complex to learn and master.
About PS3, the lack of access to RSX is quite a problem... No real opportunity to tune something great. So, I think PS3 is less interesting than XNA for now. It's too close to a mere PC without any specificity. But, in fact, it's a good choice for a beginner that want to stick to classics (C language, unix environment) and don't want to be annoyed by hardware-specific programming (but in that case a mere PC could eventually do the same, so it would be, then, just the pleasure to have a 2 in 1 machine : console+PC).
XNA opens a way, but it will be hard to master it for beginners. The ones who pay will have xbox360 as additional platform to play with (but no network). Without paying, if some effort is made to obtain a correct PC graphic card the platform xp+xna may reveal itself interesting and a competitor to ps3 & xbox360.
The question is...
Is it possible to optimize GPU shaders in some unified way for PC graphic cards (with xp+xna) as far as it would be possible for xbox360 gpu?
Is xna acting as some abstraction layer (or direct3d) but in a way allowing really great optimizations?
I think there are things to study there and may be fishy stuff to dig out. That is, depending on the graphic card installed in a PC, things may be different when it comes to optimize a shader.
On the contrary if it's really possible to make all GPUs (for example ALL pixel shader 2.0 compliant graphic cards and the xbox360 GPU) work really hard in a very optimized way, then a really new friendly homebrew platform is born (mainly xp+xna because of club cost).
And maybe, the winner is not xbox360 over ps3, but xp+xna over xbox360 & ps3... (in that last case)
For xbmc users, however, they will have to stick to xbox1. At the moment it's the best and cheapest platform because it has been wide opened and codecs built in i386 world have been transported (not ported). With shaders, maybe these codecs may be ported but is it really a worthy effort (grab sources, licenses, port to shaders, etc... looks like a quite insane work, surely long to do...)?
However, with time, xbox1 will vanish since no longer manufactured. It's just a matter of time.
There is an opening there for a new i386 based machine that could fit near tv quietly and run xbmc.
(I will try to make xbox1 platform even better, soon, for openxdk developers... I try to hurry.
Maybe, I will have some ideas about how to build up a silent os-less pc in order to replace xbox1.
But the first step is to really master GPUs at lowest level. I'm working on it, hard. For those looking for xbmc and claiming they don't care about 3D, be aware that to reach some high video quality, GPU is needed, for antialiasing for example. It's, somehow, linked together. So we all need the true GPU power.)